[08:35] <davidcalle> Morning o/
[09:07] <dholbach> good morning
[09:08] <davidcalle> dholbach, hey :)
[09:10] <dholbach> salut davidcalle
[09:11] <davidcalle> dholbach: wie geht's?
[09:12] <dholbach> sehr gut, ich brauch aber noch einen neuen kaffee :)
[09:16] <davidcalle> dholbach: same :)
[09:28] <popey> Morning!
[09:34]  * dholbach relocates to the office, brb
[10:23] <dholbach> balloons, davidcalle, dpm, mhall119, popey: for the Q&A tomorrow, do you think we can get somebody who can answer a few questions about the tablet?
[10:23] <dholbach> _sponge just pinged me in #u-on-air about it
[10:30] <dpm> dholbach, let me ask pat when he's online later on today
[10:34] <dholbach> awesome :)
[12:43] <popey> dholbach: please don't approve file manager yet
[12:44] <popey> dholbach: (in the store) - I don't actually know how to undo the manual review request
[12:46] <davidcalle> Meh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges
[12:49] <popey> call them, tell them how awesome they are ㋛
[12:54] <davidcalle> popey: can you remind me your credit card number? They need one and you suggested this fantastic idea :)
[12:54] <popey> \o/
[12:55] <davidcalle> "Not a valid card number"
[12:55] <popey> dholbach: nvm, I rejected it
[12:56] <popey> Time to migrate to MediaWiki ㋛
[13:14] <dholbach> popey: I was out for lunch with doko and larsu :)
[13:14] <popey> \o/
[13:15] <popey> dholbach: calendar and terminal could do with an eye though ㋛  😃
[13:17] <dholbach> sure
[13:20] <popey> thank you!  😃
[13:21] <dholbach> done
[13:21] <popey> \o/
[13:31]  * davidcalle afk for 30min
[13:53] <dholbach> dpm: did you try unity8 on your desktop again?
[13:54] <dholbach> I just got a black screen and couldn't do anything but use magic sysrq do get out of it again
[13:54] <dholbach> ...to get out of it again
[13:57] <dpm> dholbach, it works fore me, but it does not load apps - let me find the bug...
[13:58] <dpm> dholbach, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1535058 - I didn't have any more time last week to debug it more
[14:02] <dholbach> dpm: maybe we should start tagging the bugs a certain way?
[14:03] <dpm> dholbach, perhaps - that one would certainly be a blocker
[14:10] <dholbach> dpm: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bugs?field.tag=unity8-desktop
[14:10] <dholbach> I filed bug 1543133
[14:13] <dholbach> brb
[15:30] <balloons> the GCI winners will be revealed in 30 mins :-)
[15:31]  * mhall119 fingers crossed
[16:00] <balloons> dpm, hangouts working for you?
[16:01] <dpm> balloons, so far, they do
[17:46] <pleia2> fyi, wiki.ubuntu.com is locked down, with the usual no communication with IS
[17:47] <pleia2> when asked in channel they told us, but that's after my morning of working on UWN was ruined
[18:20] <dpm> pleia2, who did you talk to from IS?
[18:21] <pleia2> jose followed up #canonical-sysadmin
[18:21] <jose> neale
[18:21] <pleia2> they're working on it, but communication would have been nice, UWN release is now blocked
[18:23] <pleia2> and they didn't update the /topic in channel until jose asked
[18:23] <pleia2> actually updating the topic in a timely manner and having it available somewhere easier to find (not just channel topic) would be lovely
[18:25] <pleia2> I don't fault individual IS engineers, they are awesome and work hard <3 just frustrated yet again about priorities and communication with the community
[18:25] <pleia2> it's deeply discouraging
[18:26] <wxl> i can echo that frustration
[18:26] <wxl> my concern is that perhaps canonical is spreading its resources too thin
[18:26] <wxl> and if that's the case, i'd rather just have them honestly say they can't do something rather than try to do it and have it not done well, or in a timely manner
[18:27]  * pleia2 nods
[18:44] <popey> Canonical IS has never not been spread thin. If they closed the gates and worked on every single RT that's been filed, I doubt they'd be done by the heat death of the universe.
  😃
[18:45] <pleia2> I am a volunteer and a busy person, when I keep getting blocked by their inability to support me in my community work, I creep closer and closer to quitting and finding a project that will support me
[18:46] <pleia2> (there are plenty out there)
[18:47] <popey> We can certainly help to improve comms.
[18:47] <wxl> yeah i think that's more of the issue
[18:47] <wxl> i think defining reasonable expectations for timing would be wise
[18:47]  * pleia2 nods
[18:48] <wxl> we should be able to define average response time on rt tickets very easily
[18:48] <popey> Well, some places have a twitter account or status page somewhere with updates.
[18:48] <pleia2> it's been 3 weeks since I requested something be done about the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki that's been locked down since the holidays, no response
[18:48] <pleia2> so the ubuntu-doc list is all "can someone with edit powers please fix..."
[18:48] <pleia2> which adds even more work for me, that I don't have time for
[18:49] <pleia2> anyway, just grumping now, haven't gotten enough sleep ;)
[18:50] <wxl> popey: i think a status page would be nice, but i think even more important is defining reasonable expectations. most places have a timeline they expect to get tickets resolved
[18:50] <wxl> i mean, if we're going to judge what we should do based on industry standards XD
[19:44] <knome> one thing that could take a lot of load off the canonical IS team is if they set up a server for purely community maintained stuff, and let community members have even *some* access to it
[19:45] <wxl> +12,000,005 knome
[19:45] <hggdh> heh
[19:45] <knome> but of course i understand they want to keep everything very much in their control... but from my POV, that means they have to maintain it too, then
[19:45] <wxl> i agree
[19:45] <knome> or else community teams will just go elsewhere
[19:46] <wxl> i could see council members having access
[19:46] <knome> i think that's a bad idea, because they don't seem to be any less busy than the canonical IS
[19:46] <hggdh> but this would not be a solution
[19:46] <knome> let's not bottleneck the work to a few people
[19:46] <hggdh> indeed
[19:47] <knome> the problem i see is that even relatively trivial tickets seem to take a lot of time to complete
[19:47] <wxl> yeah that's true
[19:47] <knome> this means "everybody in the community" using IS servers think they are crap and avoid centralizing stuff in the future
[19:47] <hggdh> when you are many tickets, it is difficult to select one
[19:47] <hggdh> and when everything is a priority, nothing is really important
[19:47] <knome> i also know from experience that tickets related to the xubuntu website are cleared lately VERY fast
[19:48] <hggdh> you can see a similar thing on lp/bugs
[19:48] <wxl> knome: i think that's because of a certain young lady :)
[19:48] <knome> that's partly because i've made sure i commit often enough that they remember me, the diff's aren't huge and that i always provide sensible requests with everything set up and clearly explained
[19:48] <knome> wxl, nope.
[19:48] <knome> so while everybody points fingers at the IS, sometimes things might be easier if the requests were clearly specified
[19:49] <wxl> well that much is true for sure
[19:49] <wxl> i've been trying to dig through the loco queue and plenty of the tickets are just not very clear
[19:49] <knome> contact persons for community might work too, but i'm not sure if that fixes the issue; it might just move the blame from IS to the community person
[19:49] <hggdh> the best option would be selective access. But this might (I do not know) require heavy changes
[19:49] <knome> i have a pad somewhere where i list a few dozen issues that are actually invalid/obsolete by now, but they have an open status
[19:50] <knome> MAYBE clearing them out would help a bit.
[19:50] <knome> (this isn't passed on to the IS yet though, so not complaining that they aren't doing this)
[19:50] <wxl> knome: bugs or rt?
[19:50] <knome> rt.
[19:50] <hggdh> and I am going thru the LoCo queue at RT, closing things that really do not make sense anymore
[19:50] <wxl> yeha i'd pass that on
[19:50] <wxl> i mentioned a few things to them and they took care of them right away
[19:50] <knome> then i should know where that is
[19:51] <wxl> i mean if you hit up the vanguard and tell them they can easily reduce their potential workload, they act fast XD
[19:51] <knome> anyway, i don't think there is a good reason to hold off things like "set up wordpress for us" forever
[19:51] <wxl> yeah our loco faced that, too
[19:52] <knome> because it is (or at least should be) a simple operation to add one more site to their farm
[19:52] <wxl> yeah it's just a juju charm they use anyways
[19:52] <knome> well i wouldn't know - and i don't want to know :)
[19:53] <wxl> hehehe
[19:54] <knome> and about realistic expectations, there should be some documentation as to what kind of services canonical IS usually provides and doesn't provide
[19:54] <knome> eg. say at the very beginning that no file access will be granted for loco teams
[19:54] <hggdh> THAT would be very good
[19:54] <wxl> agree
[19:55] <knome> and that bzr branches are the recommended way to handle updates (then you can just request revision X to be pushed to production)
[19:55] <hggdh> one of the problems is we do not know what what we can really request
[19:55] <knome> i have a vague idea.
[19:55] <hggdh> so we end up requesting what is doable and what is absurd
[19:55] <knome> clearly.
[19:56] <knome> but even in that case, they should simply just reply that something isn't realistic, if it isn't
[19:56] <knome> and not let the tickets rot
[19:56] <wxl> knome: yet how do we get the production configuration and such put in a bzr branch? can we request that?
[19:56] <knome> production configuration? what are you referring to?
[19:56] <hggdh> knome: tickets tend to rot (everywhenre) because you got new tickets to work on
[19:56] <wxl> you were referring to using bzr branches to handle updates
[19:57] <knome> hggdh, "oh, everybody else neglects their clients, we just do the same"
[19:57] <knome> hggdh, my point is that tickets that don't even have a reply rot
[19:57] <knome> hggdh, even if they were silly, like "grant me ssh access to everything"
[19:57] <hggdh> no, this is not it. But -- since I did work on tehnical support, I know how it goes
[19:57] <knome> so instead of letting it rot, PLEASE reply to the ticket saying this is unrealistic and not going to happen
[19:58] <knome> *any* communication is better than *no* communication
[19:58] <knome> well, if it is like you say, maybe the canonical IS should just say they won't support community stuff because they don't have the resources
[19:58] <hggdh> I *always required my folks to have a reply. And we had meetings every so often when bug rot was revisited
[19:58] <knome> that would be fair too.
[19:59] <knome> wxl, yes, for example, if you run a wordpress site, push your theme to a branch so they have easy access to it and diffs
[19:59] <knome> wxl, no specific set up documentation is needed
[19:59] <knome> wxl, tbh, i don't think they would mind if you used git either.
[20:00] <knome> one thing that i HOPE helps a bit with this maintaining is the ubuntu community teams wordpress theme: https://github.com/knomepasi/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme/
[20:00] <hggdh> I see. You propose a diff, somebody "in charge" approves, and the diff is committed to the repository *and* prod
[20:00] <knome> with this theme, canonical would only need to maintain ONE theme for most of the community teams
[20:00] <wxl> knome: i tried to use your theme on our site and they couldn't get it to work for whatever resaon
[20:00] <knome> hggdh, the diff should be committed to the repository by the requestor
[20:00] <knome> wxl, "it doesn't work" isn't helpful
[20:00] <knome> wxl, and who is "they"?
[20:00] <hggdh> knome: I would rather have the approval be the trigger
[20:00] <wxl> knome: you can inquire with neale about the specifics
[20:01] <wxl> they is IS
[20:01] <knome> wxl, sigh
[20:01] <knome> wxl, so i asked you to not send the theme to IS yet, and the first thing you do is that?
[20:01] <wxl> apparently because of load balancing and such the wordpress instance consists of several machines
[20:01]  * knome facepalms so hard it hurts the face and hand
[20:01] <wxl> which i guess is problematic
[20:01] <wxl> knome: i don't remember being asked that
[20:01] <hggdh> wxl: "they is IS" failed a series of parsers here until I got your meaming ;-)
[20:02] <wxl> hehehe
[20:02] <knome> wxl, that was clearly mentioned in the mail i sent to the list, which i pointed you to.
[20:02] <knome> but thanks for the cooperation.
[20:02] <knome> let's hope people do not start switching to the WIP theme now.
[20:02] <knome> and please, point people to me if something on the theme isn't working
[20:02] <wxl> oic heheheh didn't see the p.s.
[20:03] <knome> it's enough work to work on it, let alone ask everybody that might be testing it if they are ok with it
[20:04] <wxl> knome: well when you DO have it available thorugh IS, i'd be happy to test it
[20:05] <knome> i need testing BEFORE that
[20:05] <knome> as we have JUST discussed, getting updates in via IS is slow
[20:05] <knome> so i don't want to be sitting here waiting them to land the updates so you can test
[20:05]  * knome facepalms again
[20:05] <knome> i told you that too when we talked the last time
[20:05] <knome> PAY ATTENTION!
[20:06] <knome> sorry for the outburst, but you clearly haven't read a thing i told you
[20:06] <hggdh> knome: if I understand you correctly, you would like to *also* have a test environment where changes could be verified. If this is correct, I am with you
[20:07] <knome> for starters, i would like people who are interested in using the theme take the time and install wordpress and use the theme with it.
[20:07] <knome> on their local, or testing servers
[20:07] <knome> everything on IS is more or less production, so that's not a good idea.
[20:07] <wxl> knome: i didn't read your "PLEASE NOTE" from your mailing list message because it was an after thought to your whole email. i saw your salutation and ended reading. next time you consider something so important, include it in the body of your email.
[20:07]  * knome shrugs
[20:07] <knome> it was only in caps...
[20:07] <hggdh> easy, folks
[20:08] <knome> hggdh, come on, are we avoiding confrontation?
[20:08] <hggdh> heh
[20:08] <knome> funny?
[20:08] <hggdh> I rarely see a need for confrontation :-)
[20:08] <knome> seems like the bacon legacy lives on
[20:09] <knome> AWESOME!
[20:09] <hggdh> ok
[20:09] <knome> the IS is doing AWESOME work guys
[20:09] <knome> yeah.
[20:10] <knome> wxl, so apparently you missed the part where it said " If you intend to use the theme, PLEASE READ
[20:10] <knome> THE NOTE at the end of this email. "
[20:10] <knome> too
[20:10] <knome> i'm not trying to ashame you.
[20:10] <wxl> knome: i'm not arguing with you anymore. i didn't get the message. so sorry. move on.
[20:11] <knome> apology accepted, but please take care in reading mail in the future
[20:11] <knome> PLEASE
[20:12] <knome> anyway, several people from the community has set up the theme and they had no problems with it
[20:12] <knome> the set up, that is
[20:12] <wxl> i saw an email where pleia2 outlined some problems she had, which she filed bugs for
[20:12] <pleia2> all addressed already by knome \o/
[20:12] <knome> i'm aware of them; two of them are related to wordpress configuration and one is a feature request
[20:13] <knome> other than her mail on the list, i've basically got "feedback" like "can i see the screenshot", which isn't really useful
[20:13] <wxl> knome: how many people do you need to test this and tell you all is well until you feel comfortable enough to move forward?
[20:13] <knome> especially as the screenshot is "hidden" in the repository with the name "screenshot.png"
[20:14] <knome> wxl, there isn't an answer to that question
[20:14] <knome> wxl, i would like to get some serious feedback from a few more persons
[20:14] <knome> if that helps...
[20:14] <wxl> knome: if there's no problems, what serious feedback do you expect?
[20:15] <knome> i said no problems setting the theme up
[20:15] <wxl> setting up = installing?
[20:15] <knome> besides, serious feedback doesn't mean you need to send a bug report.
[20:15] <knome> yes.
[20:15] <knome> i was referring to that since you said IS had problems setting it up.
[20:16] <wxl> yeah i get you want people to test it with actual posts and tweaking the theme, etc
[20:16] <knome> it can be without real posts too, as long as their intention is to configure the theme to be something that they'd actually use
[20:16] <wxl> and i said that's related to the way they have their machines setup, from what i understand
[20:17] <knome> or if they have old content, make sure they can present the same content with the new theme (not necessarily exactly the way as before)
[20:17] <knome> and i don't believe they can't set it up
[20:17]  * wxl shrugs
[20:17] <wxl> that's up to you to figure out it sounds like
[20:18] <knome> what i told you in the mail was that i would take care of making this available in the IS farm
[20:18] <wxl> meanwhile we'll see what we can do to get you some more tests beyond just installing
[20:18] <knome> now i'm not in the loop of you communicating with them
[20:18] <knome> so i can't be very useful
[20:18] <wxl> knome: right, so all that's mostly irrelevant. a waste of time on everyone's part. like i said, my mistake. i do hope we can move beyond that at some point
[20:19] <knome> part of the reason why i told i would do the communicating is because i knew it can sometimes be hard or slow
[20:19] <knome> i'm still not blaming you
[20:20] <knome> so yes, as i originally asked...
[20:20] <knome> please test the theme on a test/local server
[20:20] <knome> then give me feedback
[20:20] <knome> so i can make sure the theme works for you (and everybody else)
[20:21] <knome> then when it's ready for production, i will make it available for you
[20:27] <popey> ooh
[20:28]  * popey sees a theme he may be interested in using
[20:28] <popey> We've been looking for a new theme for ubuntupodcast.org
[20:29] <knome> popey, you would be welcome, and as a bonus, if you test it now, before it's in production, i might even fulfill (some of) your feature requests if you need any
[20:29] <knome> popey, you can totally change the header color with the theme too!
[20:32] <popey> knome: thank you for making that, and making it available.
[20:32] <knome> popey, no problem, i hope it will bring joy for many
[21:25] <wxl> knome: don't normally have the joy of taking care of wordpress installs. must i restart apache2 to get it to recognize the wp-content/themes/ubuntu-community theme? i've already chown'd it recursively to www-data.
[21:31] <wxl> knome: well, just restarted to no avail. shall i install the zip file instead of manually installing as the README suggests?
[21:41] <popey> mhall119: saw this and thought of you https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/44rgre/as_a_coder_every_time_i_have_to_write_the_word/
[21:42] <popey> knome: we're testing it out - http://ubuntupodcast.org/
[21:42] <popey> knome: needs a bit of fiddling, which Martin is doing. Burying every link at the bottom of the page doesn't work for our use case.
[21:42] <popey> but will provide you some feedback :)
[21:42] <popey> thank you
[21:44] <pleia2> popey: yeah, similar to the issues I filed on github when I tried it
[21:44] <pleia2> (also, glad to see someone else testing it, yay!)
[22:43] <mhall119> popey: forget u, who needs u?
[22:43] <popey> wat
[22:43] <popey> oh, i see
[23:27] <knome> wxl, no apache2 restart needed, it should be picked up automatically
[23:28] <knome> wxl, if you are running multisite, you will need to network enable the theme first
[23:28] <knome> popey, yeah, i will add a sidebar sooner or later :)
[23:29] <popey> knome: okay  😃
[23:29] <knome> popey, what are your other inital reactions?
[23:29] <knome> oh, you said will provide feedback
[23:30]  * knome gets on with things he was doing
[23:30] <popey> knome: the links on the bottom is a bit of a blocker
[23:30] <popey> we flipped back to our other theme for now
[23:30] <popey> will test more later.
[23:30] <knome> popey, what links?
[23:31] <knome> is it something that isn't fixable with a sidebar? :)
[23:31] <popey> well, it's the lack of sidebar, yeah
[23:31] <knome> yeah, well, that'll come
[23:31] <knome> maybe after this fifa match :P
[23:32] <popey> heh
[23:54] <wxl> knome: well, i got it to behave once i put it in the RIGHT wp-content/themes directory XD but there's something funky still. i'm going to try a different browser.
[23:55] <knome> okay