[08:35] Morning o/ [09:07] good morning [09:08] dholbach, hey :) [09:10] salut davidcalle [09:11] dholbach: wie geht's? [09:12] sehr gut, ich brauch aber noch einen neuen kaffee :) [09:16] dholbach: same :) [09:28] Morning! [09:34] * dholbach relocates to the office, brb [10:23] balloons, davidcalle, dpm, mhall119, popey: for the Q&A tomorrow, do you think we can get somebody who can answer a few questions about the tablet? [10:23] _sponge just pinged me in #u-on-air about it [10:30] dholbach, let me ask pat when he's online later on today [10:34] awesome :) [12:43] dholbach: please don't approve file manager yet [12:44] dholbach: (in the store) - I don't actually know how to undo the manual review request [12:46] Meh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges [12:49] call them, tell them how awesome they are ㋛ [12:54] popey: can you remind me your credit card number? They need one and you suggested this fantastic idea :) [12:54] \o/ [12:55] "Not a valid card number" [12:55] dholbach: nvm, I rejected it [12:56] Time to migrate to MediaWiki ㋛ [13:14] popey: I was out for lunch with doko and larsu :) [13:14] \o/ [13:15] dholbach: calendar and terminal could do with an eye though ㋛ 😃 [13:17] sure [13:20] thank you! 😃 [13:21] done [13:21] \o/ [13:31] * davidcalle afk for 30min [13:53] dpm: did you try unity8 on your desktop again? [13:54] I just got a black screen and couldn't do anything but use magic sysrq do get out of it again [13:54] ...to get out of it again [13:57] dholbach, it works fore me, but it does not load apps - let me find the bug... [13:58] dholbach, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1535058 - I didn't have any more time last week to debug it more [14:02] dpm: maybe we should start tagging the bugs a certain way? [14:03] dholbach, perhaps - that one would certainly be a blocker [14:10] dpm: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bugs?field.tag=unity8-desktop [14:10] I filed bug 1543133 [14:13] brb [15:30] the GCI winners will be revealed in 30 mins :-) [15:31] * mhall119 fingers crossed [16:00] dpm, hangouts working for you? [16:01] balloons, so far, they do [17:46] fyi, wiki.ubuntu.com is locked down, with the usual no communication with IS [17:47] when asked in channel they told us, but that's after my morning of working on UWN was ruined [18:20] pleia2, who did you talk to from IS? [18:21] jose followed up #canonical-sysadmin [18:21] neale [18:21] they're working on it, but communication would have been nice, UWN release is now blocked [18:23] and they didn't update the /topic in channel until jose asked [18:23] actually updating the topic in a timely manner and having it available somewhere easier to find (not just channel topic) would be lovely [18:25] I don't fault individual IS engineers, they are awesome and work hard <3 just frustrated yet again about priorities and communication with the community [18:25] it's deeply discouraging [18:26] i can echo that frustration [18:26] my concern is that perhaps canonical is spreading its resources too thin [18:26] and if that's the case, i'd rather just have them honestly say they can't do something rather than try to do it and have it not done well, or in a timely manner [18:27] * pleia2 nods [18:44] Canonical IS has never not been spread thin. If they closed the gates and worked on every single RT that's been filed, I doubt they'd be done by the heat death of the universe. [18:45] 😃 [18:45] I am a volunteer and a busy person, when I keep getting blocked by their inability to support me in my community work, I creep closer and closer to quitting and finding a project that will support me [18:46] (there are plenty out there) [18:47] We can certainly help to improve comms. [18:47] yeah i think that's more of the issue [18:47] i think defining reasonable expectations for timing would be wise [18:47] * pleia2 nods [18:48] we should be able to define average response time on rt tickets very easily [18:48] Well, some places have a twitter account or status page somewhere with updates. [18:48] it's been 3 weeks since I requested something be done about the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki that's been locked down since the holidays, no response [18:48] so the ubuntu-doc list is all "can someone with edit powers please fix..." [18:48] which adds even more work for me, that I don't have time for [18:49] anyway, just grumping now, haven't gotten enough sleep ;) [18:50] popey: i think a status page would be nice, but i think even more important is defining reasonable expectations. most places have a timeline they expect to get tickets resolved [18:50] i mean, if we're going to judge what we should do based on industry standards XD [19:44] one thing that could take a lot of load off the canonical IS team is if they set up a server for purely community maintained stuff, and let community members have even *some* access to it [19:45] +12,000,005 knome [19:45] heh [19:45] but of course i understand they want to keep everything very much in their control... but from my POV, that means they have to maintain it too, then [19:45] i agree [19:45] or else community teams will just go elsewhere [19:46] i could see council members having access [19:46] i think that's a bad idea, because they don't seem to be any less busy than the canonical IS [19:46] but this would not be a solution [19:46] let's not bottleneck the work to a few people [19:46] indeed [19:47] the problem i see is that even relatively trivial tickets seem to take a lot of time to complete [19:47] yeah that's true [19:47] this means "everybody in the community" using IS servers think they are crap and avoid centralizing stuff in the future [19:47] when you are many tickets, it is difficult to select one [19:47] and when everything is a priority, nothing is really important [19:47] i also know from experience that tickets related to the xubuntu website are cleared lately VERY fast [19:48] you can see a similar thing on lp/bugs [19:48] knome: i think that's because of a certain young lady :) [19:48] that's partly because i've made sure i commit often enough that they remember me, the diff's aren't huge and that i always provide sensible requests with everything set up and clearly explained [19:48] wxl, nope. [19:48] so while everybody points fingers at the IS, sometimes things might be easier if the requests were clearly specified [19:49] well that much is true for sure [19:49] i've been trying to dig through the loco queue and plenty of the tickets are just not very clear [19:49] contact persons for community might work too, but i'm not sure if that fixes the issue; it might just move the blame from IS to the community person [19:49] the best option would be selective access. But this might (I do not know) require heavy changes [19:49] i have a pad somewhere where i list a few dozen issues that are actually invalid/obsolete by now, but they have an open status [19:50] MAYBE clearing them out would help a bit. [19:50] (this isn't passed on to the IS yet though, so not complaining that they aren't doing this) [19:50] knome: bugs or rt? [19:50] rt. [19:50] and I am going thru the LoCo queue at RT, closing things that really do not make sense anymore [19:50] yeha i'd pass that on [19:50] i mentioned a few things to them and they took care of them right away [19:50] then i should know where that is [19:51] i mean if you hit up the vanguard and tell them they can easily reduce their potential workload, they act fast XD [19:51] anyway, i don't think there is a good reason to hold off things like "set up wordpress for us" forever [19:51] yeah our loco faced that, too [19:52] because it is (or at least should be) a simple operation to add one more site to their farm [19:52] yeah it's just a juju charm they use anyways [19:52] well i wouldn't know - and i don't want to know :) [19:53] hehehe [19:54] and about realistic expectations, there should be some documentation as to what kind of services canonical IS usually provides and doesn't provide [19:54] eg. say at the very beginning that no file access will be granted for loco teams [19:54] THAT would be very good [19:54] agree [19:55] and that bzr branches are the recommended way to handle updates (then you can just request revision X to be pushed to production) [19:55] one of the problems is we do not know what what we can really request [19:55] i have a vague idea. [19:55] so we end up requesting what is doable and what is absurd [19:55] clearly. [19:56] but even in that case, they should simply just reply that something isn't realistic, if it isn't [19:56] and not let the tickets rot [19:56] knome: yet how do we get the production configuration and such put in a bzr branch? can we request that? [19:56] production configuration? what are you referring to? [19:56] knome: tickets tend to rot (everywhenre) because you got new tickets to work on [19:56] you were referring to using bzr branches to handle updates [19:57] hggdh, "oh, everybody else neglects their clients, we just do the same" [19:57] hggdh, my point is that tickets that don't even have a reply rot [19:57] hggdh, even if they were silly, like "grant me ssh access to everything" [19:57] no, this is not it. But -- since I did work on tehnical support, I know how it goes [19:57] so instead of letting it rot, PLEASE reply to the ticket saying this is unrealistic and not going to happen [19:58] *any* communication is better than *no* communication [19:58] well, if it is like you say, maybe the canonical IS should just say they won't support community stuff because they don't have the resources [19:58] I *always required my folks to have a reply. And we had meetings every so often when bug rot was revisited [19:58] that would be fair too. [19:59] wxl, yes, for example, if you run a wordpress site, push your theme to a branch so they have easy access to it and diffs [19:59] wxl, no specific set up documentation is needed [19:59] wxl, tbh, i don't think they would mind if you used git either. [20:00] one thing that i HOPE helps a bit with this maintaining is the ubuntu community teams wordpress theme: https://github.com/knomepasi/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme/ [20:00] I see. You propose a diff, somebody "in charge" approves, and the diff is committed to the repository *and* prod [20:00] with this theme, canonical would only need to maintain ONE theme for most of the community teams [20:00] knome: i tried to use your theme on our site and they couldn't get it to work for whatever resaon [20:00] hggdh, the diff should be committed to the repository by the requestor [20:00] wxl, "it doesn't work" isn't helpful [20:00] wxl, and who is "they"? [20:00] knome: I would rather have the approval be the trigger [20:00] knome: you can inquire with neale about the specifics [20:01] they is IS [20:01] wxl, sigh [20:01] wxl, so i asked you to not send the theme to IS yet, and the first thing you do is that? [20:01] apparently because of load balancing and such the wordpress instance consists of several machines [20:01] * knome facepalms so hard it hurts the face and hand [20:01] which i guess is problematic [20:01] knome: i don't remember being asked that [20:01] wxl: "they is IS" failed a series of parsers here until I got your meaming ;-) [20:02] hehehe [20:02] wxl, that was clearly mentioned in the mail i sent to the list, which i pointed you to. [20:02] but thanks for the cooperation. [20:02] let's hope people do not start switching to the WIP theme now. [20:02] and please, point people to me if something on the theme isn't working [20:02] oic heheheh didn't see the p.s. [20:03] it's enough work to work on it, let alone ask everybody that might be testing it if they are ok with it [20:04] knome: well when you DO have it available thorugh IS, i'd be happy to test it [20:05] i need testing BEFORE that [20:05] as we have JUST discussed, getting updates in via IS is slow [20:05] so i don't want to be sitting here waiting them to land the updates so you can test [20:05] * knome facepalms again [20:05] i told you that too when we talked the last time [20:05] PAY ATTENTION! [20:06] sorry for the outburst, but you clearly haven't read a thing i told you [20:06] knome: if I understand you correctly, you would like to *also* have a test environment where changes could be verified. If this is correct, I am with you [20:07] for starters, i would like people who are interested in using the theme take the time and install wordpress and use the theme with it. [20:07] on their local, or testing servers [20:07] everything on IS is more or less production, so that's not a good idea. [20:07] knome: i didn't read your "PLEASE NOTE" from your mailing list message because it was an after thought to your whole email. i saw your salutation and ended reading. next time you consider something so important, include it in the body of your email. [20:07] * knome shrugs [20:07] it was only in caps... [20:07] easy, folks [20:08] hggdh, come on, are we avoiding confrontation? [20:08] heh [20:08] funny? [20:08] I rarely see a need for confrontation :-) [20:08] seems like the bacon legacy lives on [20:09] AWESOME! [20:09] ok [20:09] the IS is doing AWESOME work guys [20:09] yeah. [20:10] wxl, so apparently you missed the part where it said " If you intend to use the theme, PLEASE READ [20:10] THE NOTE at the end of this email. " [20:10] too [20:10] i'm not trying to ashame you. [20:10] knome: i'm not arguing with you anymore. i didn't get the message. so sorry. move on. [20:11] apology accepted, but please take care in reading mail in the future [20:11] PLEASE [20:12] anyway, several people from the community has set up the theme and they had no problems with it [20:12] the set up, that is [20:12] i saw an email where pleia2 outlined some problems she had, which she filed bugs for [20:12] all addressed already by knome \o/ [20:12] i'm aware of them; two of them are related to wordpress configuration and one is a feature request [20:13] other than her mail on the list, i've basically got "feedback" like "can i see the screenshot", which isn't really useful [20:13] knome: how many people do you need to test this and tell you all is well until you feel comfortable enough to move forward? [20:13] especially as the screenshot is "hidden" in the repository with the name "screenshot.png" [20:14] wxl, there isn't an answer to that question [20:14] wxl, i would like to get some serious feedback from a few more persons [20:14] if that helps... [20:14] knome: if there's no problems, what serious feedback do you expect? [20:15] i said no problems setting the theme up [20:15] setting up = installing? [20:15] besides, serious feedback doesn't mean you need to send a bug report. [20:15] yes. [20:15] i was referring to that since you said IS had problems setting it up. [20:16] yeah i get you want people to test it with actual posts and tweaking the theme, etc [20:16] it can be without real posts too, as long as their intention is to configure the theme to be something that they'd actually use [20:16] and i said that's related to the way they have their machines setup, from what i understand [20:17] or if they have old content, make sure they can present the same content with the new theme (not necessarily exactly the way as before) [20:17] and i don't believe they can't set it up [20:17] * wxl shrugs [20:17] that's up to you to figure out it sounds like [20:18] what i told you in the mail was that i would take care of making this available in the IS farm [20:18] meanwhile we'll see what we can do to get you some more tests beyond just installing [20:18] now i'm not in the loop of you communicating with them [20:18] so i can't be very useful [20:18] knome: right, so all that's mostly irrelevant. a waste of time on everyone's part. like i said, my mistake. i do hope we can move beyond that at some point [20:19] part of the reason why i told i would do the communicating is because i knew it can sometimes be hard or slow [20:19] i'm still not blaming you [20:20] so yes, as i originally asked... [20:20] please test the theme on a test/local server [20:20] then give me feedback [20:20] so i can make sure the theme works for you (and everybody else) [20:21] then when it's ready for production, i will make it available for you [20:27] ooh [20:28] * popey sees a theme he may be interested in using [20:28] We've been looking for a new theme for ubuntupodcast.org [20:29] popey, you would be welcome, and as a bonus, if you test it now, before it's in production, i might even fulfill (some of) your feature requests if you need any [20:29] popey, you can totally change the header color with the theme too! [20:32] knome: thank you for making that, and making it available. [20:32] popey, no problem, i hope it will bring joy for many [21:25] knome: don't normally have the joy of taking care of wordpress installs. must i restart apache2 to get it to recognize the wp-content/themes/ubuntu-community theme? i've already chown'd it recursively to www-data. [21:31] knome: well, just restarted to no avail. shall i install the zip file instead of manually installing as the README suggests? [21:41] mhall119: saw this and thought of you https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/44rgre/as_a_coder_every_time_i_have_to_write_the_word/ [21:42] knome: we're testing it out - http://ubuntupodcast.org/ [21:42] knome: needs a bit of fiddling, which Martin is doing. Burying every link at the bottom of the page doesn't work for our use case. [21:42] but will provide you some feedback :) [21:42] thank you [21:44] popey: yeah, similar to the issues I filed on github when I tried it [21:44] (also, glad to see someone else testing it, yay!) [22:43] popey: forget u, who needs u? [22:43] wat [22:43] oh, i see [23:27] wxl, no apache2 restart needed, it should be picked up automatically [23:28] wxl, if you are running multisite, you will need to network enable the theme first [23:28] popey, yeah, i will add a sidebar sooner or later :) [23:29] knome: okay 😃 [23:29] popey, what are your other inital reactions? [23:29] oh, you said will provide feedback [23:30] * knome gets on with things he was doing [23:30] knome: the links on the bottom is a bit of a blocker [23:30] we flipped back to our other theme for now [23:30] will test more later. [23:30] popey, what links? [23:31] is it something that isn't fixable with a sidebar? :) [23:31] well, it's the lack of sidebar, yeah [23:31] yeah, well, that'll come [23:31] maybe after this fifa match :P [23:32] heh [23:54] knome: well, i got it to behave once i put it in the RIGHT wp-content/themes directory XD but there's something funky still. i'm going to try a different browser. [23:55] okay