[04:09] <ScottK> valorie: seems like mattermost is a way better idea than slack.
[05:22] <valorie> ScottK: one of my friends is working out a matrix <> irc bridge too
[05:22] <valorie> there are alternatives
[05:23] <ScottK> I've used some of the IRC/email alternatives and honestly never saw any advantage.
[05:23] <ScottK> slack though had some serious downsides, including terms of service that were pretty unacceptable.
[05:24] <ScottK> (on top of the standard it's not free software)
[05:45] <valorie> well, I love irc more than anything else
[05:46] <valorie> however, many students can't use IRC because it's blocked
[05:46] <valorie> and it is harder to get going than things you can use on your phone such as Telegram
[05:47] <valorie> lowering barriers to entry is a Good Thing imo
[05:47] <valorie> I understand that Debian has a different take on that
[05:52] <ScottK> No, I think Debian doesn't mind lowering barriers to entry.
[05:53] <valorie> sure, but the emphasis is on security
[05:53] <valorie> not popularity
[05:53] <ScottK> BTW, if you run a quassel core, you can pick an arbitrary port for the client/core connection so if you can get the client installed on the computers it's very unlikely you can't get around the block.
[05:53] <ScottK> Stability even more.
[05:54] <valorie> sure
[05:55] <ScottK> You could probably even use port 80 so they can't block it without also blocking web browsing.
[05:55] <ScottK> At least not at the port level.
[06:29] <valorie> ScottK: hard to talk newbie junior or senior high students into doing that, esp. if they are still on Win or Mac
[06:30] <valorie> and some of even the GSoC students from poor countries don't have a whole lot of options
[06:33] <ScottK> Sure.
[06:34] <ScottK> I recently tried to suggest to the technology and engineering teacher at my youngest's middle school that it might make sense to direct the kids that are really interesting towards free software projects.
[06:35] <ScottK> She was too horrified at the prospect of subjecting the kids to on line interactions with adults to even really process what I was suggesting.
[06:35] <ScottK> So yeah, I get resistence.
[06:40] <valorie> huh, so she's not heard of GCi?
[06:40] <valorie> they actually do keep the kids rather separated from the mentors
[06:40] <valorie> most of the communication is through the webapp
[06:40] <valorie> unless the student decides to use IRC or Telegram or so
[06:47] <ScottK> They've done "Hour of code".
[06:48] <ScottK> They're biggest tech extra-curricular is www.firstlegoleague.org
[06:48] <ScottK> Which is good, but I think the kids learn more about project management than coding.
[06:49] <valorie> agreed
[06:49] <valorie> GCi is great, since it is code plus other tasks
[06:49] <valorie> helps kids find their place by trying different stuff out
[06:51] <ScottK> For leaning about principles of programming, she's using http://sonic-pi.net/ at home (running very nicely on a Kubuntu Trusty box that I haven't migrated to Debian yet.
[06:52] <ScottK> She thinks she's making music, she's really learning how to program.
[06:52] <valorie> neato!
[06:53] <ScottK> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK1mBqKvIyU is a great demonstration by the lead developer.
[06:53] <ScottK> He goes on about Rasberry Pi, but it'll work on most any non-ancient Linux.
[06:55] <valorie> neat, I'll watch that once I'm done with the news
[11:48] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[11:48] <clivejo> hi BluesKaj
[11:48] <BluesKaj> hi clivejo
[12:04] <lordievader> Good afternoon.
[12:05]  * clivejo wonders how libksane became libkf5sane, surely it should me libkf5ksane?
[12:05]  * clivejo scratches head
[12:06] <clivejo> hi lordievader
[12:06] <lordievader> Hey clivejo, how are you doing?
[12:06] <clivejo> confused!
[12:07] <lordievader> clivejo: Still confused or did I miss the period were you weren't confused? :P
[12:08] <clivejo> seems Im in a constant state of confusion!
[12:11] <clivejo> soee: how are you today?
[12:11] <lordievader> clivejo: How fun :)
[12:13] <clivejo> lordievader: would you do me a testimonial ?
[12:17] <lordievader> Sure, do you have a wiki page>
[12:17] <lordievader> >=?
[12:18] <clivejo> I do  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/~clivejo
[12:27] <lordievader> clivejo: Done ;)
[12:27] <clivejo> thanking you !
[12:28] <clivejo> its quite interesting reading what other people think of you!
[12:32] <lordievader> I'm sure it is ;)
[12:42] <BluesKaj> where does one add the testomonial there?
[12:43] <BluesKaj> or does one have to be a member as well , since I'm not
[12:50] <mparillo> BluesKaj: I added one, even though I am not a member. Worst case: It just gets ignored.
[12:51] <BluesKaj> mparillo, ok, but how? maybe I'm missing something
[12:52] <mparillo> First you have to sign in to the wiki with your launchpad Open ID (confusingly named Ubuntu One)
[12:52] <mparillo> That will change immutable page to a link near the top labeled edit.
[12:52] <mparillo> It can be slow and painful.
[12:55] <BluesKaj> oh that BS, sorry I tied that before and it was tedious and confusing for me ,and I don't think I ever resolved my username and pw
[12:56] <BluesKaj> I'm getting too old for bureaucratic mazes. it's too bad it has to be this way
[13:15] <BluesKaj> mparillo, I managed to login , but I see no edit option
[13:20] <mparillo> Does it still say immutable page?
[13:21] <mparillo> If so, I just refresh my browser. For some reason I have better luck on rekonq and google-chrome-stable than on firefox.
[13:28] <BluesKaj> mparillo, I'm on the ubuntu membership wiki page 
[13:28] <soee> clivejo: i feel like a *** :(
[13:28] <BluesKaj> assuming that ain't the right place
[13:29] <BluesKaj> immutable page is listed but not linking
[13:31] <BluesKaj> maybe I'll try with chrome, FF isn't getting me anywhere, unless someone else has some suggestions
[13:31] <soee> yofel, clivejo: https://www.kde.org/announcements/kde-frameworks-5.19.0.php
[13:56] <clivejo> soee: we know about frameworks, yofel has asked to hold back for now
[13:58] <soee> why?
[13:58] <clivejo> need to get apps 15.12.1 finished
[13:59] <BluesKaj> clivejo, I tried to find my way to give you a well deserved decent testimonial, but unfortunately I didn't succeed :/
[13:59] <clivejo> still a lot of red - http://qa.kubuntu.co.uk/ppa-status/applications/build_status_15.12.1_xenial.html
[14:00] <clivejo> no problem BluesKaj, It took me two days to be able to log in to create the page
[14:00] <clivejo> I understand how difficult it is!
[14:02] <BluesKaj> clivejo, it was much easier before that ubuntu one ended up in the mix
[14:03] <clivejo> I cant log into the kubuntu one :(
[14:03] <clivejo> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/~clivejo
[14:03] <clivejo> they share the same backend, just different skin
[14:04] <clivejo> but the login process throws lots of errors
[14:04] <clivejo> I dunno why we cant just have a mediawiki installation
[14:07] <soee> valorie: we have Mattermost now ?
[14:07] <soee> i had to wait like 5 min to get there :D
[14:09] <BluesKaj> just got list of script errors when I clicked on login , then continue
[14:17] <soee> yofel: we should add latest kdeconnect to Xenial archive as it only works with current mobile app as it should (allows browsing phone from dolphin)
[14:19] <clivejo> is there a workflow for that, ie can I tag packages I think should be in the archive?
[14:20] <clivejo> !info calligra xenial
[14:20] <clivejo> I have 2.9.10 packaged in my PPA
[17:17] <clivejo> yofel sgclark: these ktp-* packages are all telepathy?
[17:17] <sgclark> yes
[17:20] <clivejo> seems to be a lot of changes, do we go with debians solutions?
[17:21] <sgclark> yes
[17:22] <clivejo> sgclark: any luck with PIM?
[17:23] <sgclark> haven't looked today, have commitments this morning, but will do some work this afternoon
[18:15] <ScottK> valorie: good chance you'll get sonic-pi in Xenial. https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/sonic-pi_2.9.0~repack-1.html            
[19:40] <clivejo> hi DalekSec
[19:40] <clivejo> hi DarinMiller
[19:50] <DalekSec> clivejo: Howdy.
[19:50] <DarinMiller> hi clivejo!
[19:50] <clivejo> there is life in here!
[19:53] <DarinMiller> clivejo: I have gone through most of the guidelines as suggested by https://notes.kde.org/p/kubuntu-packaging.  I am still unclear on several things.
[19:54] <clivejo> what you unclear about?
[19:54] <DarinMiller> I am confused by the pbuild section.
[19:54] <clivejo> ahh that is a bit confusing
[19:55] <clivejo> we use pbuild to test building a package in a clean environment
[19:55] <DarinMiller> yofel mentioned adding PPA's to the chroot and to be careful. Not sure what he means or how that is accomplished.
[19:56] <clivejo> we can create environments with differing specs on the same physical machive
[19:56] <DarinMiller> I have used chroot to in live boot to recover a grub install, but that's the extent of my chroot knowledge.
[19:57] <clivejo> for example if your host system is wily 64bit, you can create a pbuild to build xenial 32bit packages
[19:58] <clivejo> pbuild just puts a nice bubble around it
[19:58] <DarinMiller> So is packing "safe" to do on our main machines, or should I create a separate boot instance just for packaging.
[19:58] <clivejo> not really no
[19:58] <clivejo> because your machine dont be clean
[19:59] <clivejo> you could have a PPA enabled, or installed a package from somewhere else
[19:59] <clivejo> a pbuild container pulls in fresh copies of all the build packages
[19:59] <DarinMiller> So create a vm for packaging?
[19:59] <clivejo> yup
[19:59] <DarinMiller> auh, ok
[20:00] <clivejo> sometimes I might want to build a package using only the staging PPA's
[20:00] <clivejo> or even test cutting edge stuff from the KCI PPA's
[20:01] <clivejo> a pbuild container can do that and leave my main system unchanged
[20:02] <clivejo> also saves your main system from installing the many -dev packages which are no use to you on a daily bases
[20:04] <DarinMiller> The pbuilder howto in the kubuntu-packaging has a long list of items but not much of a "howto" guideline. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto)
[20:05] <DarinMiller> Nevermind, the ")" at the end causes a navigation annomally.
[20:06] <DarinMiller> So use pbuilder and a vm or "either one"?
[20:08] <clivejo> pbuilder is the easier one
[20:09] <clivejo> once it is configured we can build the source and throw it at the pbuild container we choose
[20:10] <DarinMiller> OK.  I will read thru the pbuilder docs.  Reading thru the debian pkg'ing stuff last night killed my insomia straight away :).
[20:10] <clivejo> tends to do that!
[20:10] <clivejo> makes ones eye lids very heavy
[20:10] <DarinMiller> yes!
[20:11] <clivejo> the lintian and copyright docs are equally as riveting !!
[20:11] <DarinMiller> LOL
[20:16] <DarinMiller> so you have a wiley and xenial pbuilder "session" or can you only have one pbuilder enviro at a time?
[20:18] <DarinMiller> didn't read far enough.  Looks like pbuilder-dist will manage multi-architectures.
[20:24] <clivejo> I have a number of them
[20:24] <clivejo> for different jobs
[20:35] <clivejo> the most useful is a amd64 xenial 
[21:15] <clivejo> sgclark yofel: I dont know how to merge ktp-text-ui, how can debian drop the epoch without a rename?
[21:16] <sgclark> heh I don't know either :( yofel ^^
[21:18] <clivejo> master doesnt have a epoch :/
[21:18] <sgclark> fairly certain if we do then we have to keep, yofel needs to verify though
[21:21] <valorie> soee_: if you want to try out mattermost, you can -- an Ubuntu guy set up a testing "droplet"
[21:25] <clivejo> what is mattermost?
[21:25] <sgclark> dunno
[21:26] <valorie> basically free software Slack
[21:26] <valorie> I've not seen anything yet that beats IRC, or works well enough with IRC
[21:27] <valorie> although tdfischer's experiments with Matrix are looking good
[21:33] <valorie> clivejo: how close are we to having all of Applications done?
[21:34] <clivejo> 86%
[21:37] <valorie> nice!
[21:38] <valorie> link for the Matrix stuff, all very technical stuff: https://oob.systems/chat/#/room/#pto:oob.systems
[21:38] <clivejo> just the difficult ones to do!
[21:42] <valorie> heh, that's how I usually work -- tackle the easy stuff first, to get the momentum and numbers going
[21:43] <sgclark> hmm
[21:44] <sgclark> no, I was the only one working on them forever, the hard ones are still left because is most case dependencies were not done. But yes it went TONS faster with help, so thank you clivejo
[21:50] <sgclark> clivejo: libkmahjongg is the same as the other rename you did
[21:53] <clivejo> sgclark: did you do a merge already - http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-kde/applications/kmahjongg.git/
[21:53] <valorie> ah, thanks for that explanation, sgclark
[21:53] <valorie> and all your work
[21:53] <sgclark> nahhis name is on trello for it, but he had made note that he needed help
[21:54] <sgclark> pim is still a disaster of course
[21:54] <sgclark> circular deps, fun stuff *grumbles*
[21:59] <clivejo> sgclark: isnt it working in debian?
[21:59] <sgclark> clivejo: gah sorry did not see your highight. looks like I did
[21:59] <sgclark> clivejo: what working?
[22:00] <clivejo> PIM
[22:00] <sgclark> no idea
[22:00] <sgclark> but I have lintain screaming at me after the merge..
[22:00] <clivejo> :(
[22:14] <clivejo> sgclark: kopete is checked off, but not showing on - http://qa.kubuntu.co.uk/ppa-status/applications/build_status_15.12.1_xenial.html
[22:14] <clivejo> did you upload it?
[22:19] <sgclark> clivejo I uploaded to wrong place a bunch, though I got them all to right place but must have missed it, will upload now
[22:19] <clivejo> no prob :)
[23:04] <sgclark> hmm missing dep on kmbox, but that one is done
[23:05] <sgclark> my brain hurts
[23:05] <clivejo> sgclark yofel: what we doing with spectacle?  We already have it in the archive
[23:05] <clivejo> !info spectacle xenial
[23:05] <sgclark> no idea sorry
[23:06] <clivejo> I guess debian dont have it, so they are ok?
[23:06] <yofel> I think they simpley never decided what to do with it
[23:06] <yofel> and they have the very same spectacle package (look at the version)
[23:07] <clivejo> hi yofel
[23:13] <valorie> IMO this issue of two Spectacle applications should be discussed on the Deb. kde packager list?
[23:14] <valorie> perhaps the new one could be KDE-Spectacle or so?
[23:14] <clivejo> what was wrong with the last name?!?
[23:15] <valorie> ksnapshot was being abandoned, the devel tried to fix it and decided to mostly start over, so didn't want to use the same name
[23:15] <valorie> and decided on Spectacle
[23:16] <yofel> hey clivejo
[23:16] <valorie> although I believe the other spectacle was mentioned in the epic-bikeshedding-thread about the naming
[23:16] <valorie> bleah
[23:16] <valorie> but that info was probably lost in the noise
[23:18] <sgclark> epic-bikeshedding-thread lol, seems the norm these days.
[23:20] <valorie> unfortunately
[23:26] <mparillo> I vote for spektakle ;-)
[23:30] <yofel> no, the kde community is so grown up that putting k into works where it doesn't belong is a complete no-go
[23:30] <valorie> mparillo brings up the rear of the bikeshed!
[23:30] <sgclark> I don't see what is wrong with k, it is a well established branding /shrug
[23:34] <yofel> notice the very subtle sarcasm in my sentence
[23:35] <clivejo> I noticed :P
[23:35] <valorie> well, it would be cool to agree with debian at least
[23:40] <clivejo> we need to establish a committee 
[23:41] <clivejo> to decide who sits on the steering group
[23:43]  * valorie nominates clivejo
[23:43] <clivejo> Im too busy chopping wood in the Sahara
[23:50] <valorie> I have no problem writing an email to the list, I just don't know enough to talk about anything but the name issue