dholbachgood morning07:37
* dholbach relocates to the office, bbiab08:10
popeydholbach: shall you and I do the Q&A today?08:55
czajkowskihow is everyone ?09:03
popeygreat, but cold09:07
dholbachhey popey - sure why not?09:15
popeyI can think of no good reason!09:16
popeydholbach: okay, created the event and updated the site09:31
popeywe're mega-early prepared for once  😃09:31
popey\o/ RPI2 just arrived for snappy playing09:52
_SpongeIt may be a good idea to tweet earlier about the ~hangout, just saying.10:20
popeyoh, yeah, we will10:22
popeypeople have short memories though :)10:22
_SpongeFor I see you are winning :-)10:47
mhall119popey: dholbach: I'm past due for being on the hangout, I'd be happy to swap with one of you if you'd like14:19
dholbachsure, that wfm too14:20
dpmmhall119, balloons, team call?15:03
_Sponge50 minutes to-go :)15:07
popeymhall119: dholbach I'll start the hangout, just moving to my desk15:45
mhall119dholbach: popey: is there a guest lined up for today?15:45
dholbachI'm taking a quick break, see you in a bit15:45
dholbachmhall119, the 3 of us - that's unusual enough :-P15:45
balloonsping jose15:46
joseballoons: pong16:36
dholbachall right my friends - I call it a day - see you tomorrow :-)17:22
pleia2jcastro: re: discourse, so as far as I can tell, you have a couple options for "notifications"17:45
pleia2jcastro: first is you can "subscribe" in the web UI, so when you go to a category, you will see a visual indication that there are new threads (not useful for me, I don't use the web UI)17:45
pleia2jcastro: or you can go into your global preferences and "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" which sends you EVERYTHING, subscribed or not, unless, as it says, you specifically mute the topic17:46
knomeunless the ubuntu wiki gets any faster, i will tell all teams to move away from it :|17:46
pleia2if there's a way to just subscribe to a single category by email, it makes discourse a bit meh for me17:47
wxli have yet to hear anyone say they love our wiki17:47
knomewell i love our wiki17:47
knomethat is, the xubuntu wiki...17:47
popeydpm: maybe a GSoC project to move our wiki to something better? :)17:47
wxlYES popey dpm PLEASE17:47
pleia2knome: we could float the idea of a migration to mediawiki again, the migration wouldn't be pretty, but it scales better17:47
pleia2might help all the brains17:48
popeywould love that17:48
* dpm hears popey and wxl volunteering....17:48
knomei'm afraid of the level of cooperation the IS is giving17:48
pleia2knome: canonical folks can escalate internally ;)17:48
wxli bet we could easily get a TEAM of people to handle that GSoC idea17:48
popeyyeah, totally17:48
popeyI know jcastro would be up for that17:48
popeyI recon we could get a crack team on it17:48
pleia2it's currently a nightmare for community, and help.ubuntu.com/community is STILL locked down, going on 2 months now17:48
popeyGSoC or not17:48
knomepleia2, i have heard that before, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't :)17:49
pleia2so both wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community would likely want this treatment17:49
jcastroI don't have time to fix the wiki17:49
jcastroI just don't use it17:49
knomepleia2, except that several people in the docs team think that the community wiki would just die17:49
knomejcastro, neither do many people in the community - because it's so slow17:50
pleia2knome: the docs people who hang around IRC, not the ones who are active contributors for it17:50
knomepleia2, yeah, true17:50
jcastroknome: I agree17:50
pleia2knome: they are very distinct groups, and we're not serving the editors right now17:50
wxlbesides, that's just speculation17:50
knomei don't think the community wiki should die, but it should definitely get some love17:50
pleia2anyway, if we propose it as a GSoC project, we would have to confirm buy-in from Canonical IS first17:51
pleia2I think we all know how frustrating it is to write a change and see it sit for 2 years17:51
wxlthat's true17:51
wxli think we're more likely to get it done with GSoC tho17:51
knomeit would probably need an ack from the design team too, because i'd imagine they would want it to have some kind of official looks for it17:51
pleia2knome: yeah, good point17:52
wxlpopey: as a member of the team behind our google thingys, could you check with canonical on the feasibility of implementing such a project?17:52
knomeunless they are willing to let the GSoC students handle the visual side too17:52
popeywxl: i can certainly ask the right people17:53
popeycan't guarantee the answers we'll get17:53
popeyknome: i think the design should just follow our existing sites for consistency17:54
popey<- not a designer17:54
popeyit's not like design have been knocking down our doors to redesign wiki.ubuntu.com for the last 5 years17:55
knomepopey, the thing is, a mediawiki theme is something completely different than a moinmoin theme, or any of the other themes17:56
popeyIt's basically $work that someone needs to do17:56
knomepopey, sure, many people can imitate the looks, but i'm pretty sure the design team has some say to this17:56
popeysomeone versed in theming mediawiki sites17:56
knomeof course17:56
popeyyeah, it's one of the many things to consider on a project this size ㋛17:57
knomewell, not necessarily, but if the design team wants their framework to be used, the one that implements the mediawiki theme has to be able to work with that17:57
knomei'm saying all this because i know it's not a small task.17:57
popeyWhile we're on the subject of shutting things down.18:04
popeyAny objection to mothballing the ubuntu-classroom lists?18:04
popeythey haven't had any traffic for ages.18:05
pleia2I think ubuntu-classroom is done18:05
pleia2if we could keep archives, that would be great18:07
popey"done" as in already shutdown?18:08
popeyor "done" as in "not needed / expired"?18:09
pleia2not needed anymore18:10
popeyhad to remove 150 odd spam mails from it this week18:11
pleia2and that was less than a month's worth of spam, I last cleared it out around the end of january18:11
pleia2anyway, I just went ahead and added a banner to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom menu saying the project is retired18:12
pleia2sad day18:12
joseI'm happy it did serve its purpose during a good while, though.18:13
* pleia2 nods18:13
pleia2it had a good run :)18:13
josehehe, I remember running to a starbucks to give a session because my home internet was down :D18:13
popeyI remember staring at the screen as I pasted line after line thinking "too quick?" "too slow? "Do you think they can read this?"18:16
popeybeing really very deliberate about what I copy/paste18:16
joseit was my second project ever in the community, after launchpad answers18:19
jcastropleia2: popey: do we know if importing from moin to mediawiki requires access to the moin server?18:38
jcastroor is it like "point to these two urls, slurp from one, push to the other."18:39
pleia2it probably requires a dump of the back end content, which I imagine is stored in a database or series of files or something18:40
jcastroit's not18:40
jcastromoin is all files18:40
jcastrono database18:40
jcastrothat's why it's so slow18:40
pleia2so access to those files then18:41
jcastrowe could18:41
pleia2there's no way slurping would work18:41
jcastroI was thinking from an ease-of-process perspective18:41
pleia2we can barely load one page these days ;)18:41
jcastrobasically, if you don't need IS to get you access to gigs of files and do an import it could save a ton of time18:41
pleia2there's no other way to have access to all the files, their caching protections prevent bots, and I fear we'd simply lose too much18:42
pleia2lots of timeouts, etc18:42
jcastroah, right18:42
jcastrowell, I have a call with elmo next thursday, if there's an RT I can bring it up18:42
jcastroiirc last time it was just a matter of resourcing18:42
jcastroit's not like anyone love the current wiki and wants to keep it around18:43
pleia2it still has lots of great content and people *want* to use it, but the slowness, timeouts and other issues make that difficult18:44
pleia2the xubuntu team just stood up its own wiki18:44
jcastroright, I don't think anyone is complaining about the content itself18:44
pleia2I don't think there's an existing RT ticket saying "migrate to something else"18:44
jcastropopey and I have talked about just getting into trouble and firing up an unofficial one and then seeing what happens18:45
joseif there's general approval, I'd be happy to open a ticket to move it to mediawiki18:45
joseeven better, mediawiki is already charmed, which makes it easier to get it deployed on is servers18:45
pleia2but yeah, definitely a resources things, but my hope is that after this switch much of the pain is reduced in maintenance, plus the community is happy \o/18:45
jcastroit would literally take us like 10 minutes to fire one up on a public cloud18:46
joseshould I send an email to ubuntu-community-team?18:46
joseyep, yep18:46
jcastroI'd just file the RT18:46
josewell, I'd like to hear what others say, though I expect a lot of 'yes please'18:46
jcastro"all in favor of keeping shitty software that makes people quit the project, say aye!"18:46
joseI'll send an email and open an RT later18:47
josejcastro, mind if I send you the RT# later?18:47
jcastroactually, the hard part would be SSO and stuff18:47
jcastroI don't care when you file it, I've waited like 12 years, what's a few more hours ...18:47
pleia2jose: we'll need to tell the ubuntu-doc team too18:49
josepleia2: ubuntu-doc@l.u.c/18:50
popeyI know when I spoke to dpm at SCaLE about this he was keen not to just jump to MediaWiki, but to evaluate the options18:50
popeyJust saying that before someone does stuff and he gets cross18:50
pleia2jose: yeah, just make sure you're subscribed so it doesn't get stuck in the queue18:50
popeyNot that i've ever seen dpm cross :)18:50
josepleia2: yup yup18:50
josepopey: I'm writing an email to ask first :)18:50
popeywise  😃18:50
jcastroall I want to do is watch the rm -fR18:50
* popey wonders if this would be "solved" by "just" keeping all of the wiki (attachments aside) in RAM :)18:51
popeyas it's all "just" files18:51
popeyI mean, surely nobody has actually just looked at what the performance bottleneck is?18:52
pleia2and timing won't be a surprise, I just sent this email yesterday ;) https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2016-February/019713.html18:52
jcastroit's the filesystem18:52
jcastroI remember when this happened18:52
jcastrowe hit an ext4 limit18:52
popeyI imagine the wiki is basically these guys http://i.imgur.com/UG8wcJo.gifv18:52
jcastroit's one text file per page18:52
jcastroor sorry it was ext2 at the time:18:53
popeyhehe, i remember that, that was fun18:54
pleia2jcastro: btw, SSO shouldn't be a problem, the openstack wiki already uses mediawiki+launchpad/ubuntu SSO18:54
jcastrooh rock and roll, that's awesome18:55
joseok, email sent18:57
jcastroI wish mediawiki did native markdown18:58
jcastrothat would be so epic18:58
wxljcastro: i haven't touched it yet but it seems like the plugins i've seen for markdown look like they'd work pretty well18:59
jcastropleia2: it's my understanding you can subscribe to a label and just get emails for that label19:03
pleia2jcastro: is a label different than a category? x_x19:05
jcastrosorry, I meant category19:06
pleia2so I'm subscribed to "Cloud and Server" as "Watching" but it doesn't send me emails19:07
jcastroI am not sure if we're set up for mails19:07
pleia2it just gives me a visual indicator in the interface when I go to that category19:07
jcastroI don't get any mails from the ubuntu one, I do get them from other discourse instances19:07
pleia2the global setting for "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" works, but that's too many emails19:07
jcastroapparently the mozillians have it set up so a user can do mail only if they want19:07
pleia2well, today it's not too many emails, since the site isn't active, but I don't want to have to manually unsubscribe from categories19:08
pleia2I've gotten 3 notifications in a couple days with that setting on19:08
jcastrothat's not how it works19:08
jcastroI think you sub to each category like you would sign up for a mailing list.19:08
pleia2is our site kept updated? I can't figure out how to do that19:09
jcastro"Tracking" is what I use19:11
jcastrothat's like, topic mails instead of every single mail19:11
pleia2ok, I'll try that19:11
jcastroso click on a category19:11
jcastrothen it's the orange dropdown on the right, top of the page but not the header19:12
pleia2yeah, that's where I set "Watching" before19:12
pleia2so to get emails, it's "Tracking"?19:12
knomejcastro, sounds easy...19:12
jcastropleia2: there's also mail settings on your settings page19:13
pleia2ok, I turned off my global "get all the alerts" setting, we'll see if this works19:13
jcastroknome: it's still much easier than say ... mailman19:13
pleia2jcastro: yep, that's where the "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" setting lives19:14
knomejcastro, i disagree; once you have registered, you will have mails for that list, period :)19:15
jcastrowell, you guys are the ones using emails19:17
jcastroof course the experience is going to suck. :)19:17
* popey covers mailman's ears so it doesn't hear the words from the bad man!19:17
knomeand just to show something, it's possible to make the mailman front page look easier to comprehend, a la https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel19:18
jcastrojose: lol +2 already to keep moinmoin19:21
svijevery time I touch wiki.ubuntu.com, I'm all like: https://i.imgflip.com/zb213.jpg19:31
svijstupic IRC, can't even embed memes!19:34
* svij goes over to mattermost/slack/… ;)19:34
pleia2IRC saves us from the memes once again <319:37
knomehooray for no-nonsense!19:37
svijpleia2: btw, do you edit the UWN completely in the wiki?19:38
svijI'm one of the "lucky" guys who do the german version of the UWN and we use etherpad mostly, so more people can contribute (and chat) on the same time.19:40
pleia2svij: no, we start out in a google doc for most of the week, final copy sunday night and any small additional edits are done in the wiki19:40
svijah okay19:40
pleia2we couldn't find an etherpad that was reliable enough for international collaboration19:40
pleia2google docs, sadly, just works better for us19:41
svijwe use http://publishwith.me/ that seems to work on mondays.19:41
svijbut yes, we didn't have luck with other etherpad hostings19:41
svijbut we have one thing in common (sadly): not that many people contribute … (2 or 3 mostly)19:43
popeyWe (podcast) have recently switched back to... (shock) Gobby!19:44
popeyIt's much better than it was previously.19:44
svijoh gobby19:45
popeyWe even have it setup to export out all the gobby docs every 90s to a webserver, with some styling. Works a treat.19:45
svijthe good old days with gobby… :D19:45
pleia2for UWN we needed a non-client solution, need to make it as easy as possible for people to write summaries (even then, it's a struggle)19:46
pleia2"point web browser here, write, thx"19:46
svijthat's why we moved away from gobby19:46
knomepleia2, you should write an irc bot that accepts submissions19:46
* knome hides19:46
pleia2knome: just what we need, yet another submission tool that no one uses19:47
knomepleia2, nooo, everybody would use it [:19:47
popeyhttp://imgur.com/a/ddWU6 check that out!19:47
popeyIt's like a wiki!19:47
svijgobby is a web-thing now?19:47
popeyedit in gobby, nice and fast, get web pages out automagically, markdown -> html19:47
pleia2it needs to be real time19:48
popeytrue, we have it spit out 90s, but it can be faster :)19:48
pleia2anyway, google docs works fine for us, nothing to solve here19:48
popeysure :)19:48
pleia2the pain just comes when I have to copy things over to the wiki at the end of our cycle19:48
svijthe only bad thing about etherpad is, that it doesn't have any code-syntax-highlighting (+ it's our own special syntax)19:48
pleia2sunday night, aaaarrggh19:49
knome(btw, HOORAY TEAM REPORTS!)19:50
knome(since we are making everybody feel sad already..)19:50
svijteam reports? Did I miss something here?19:51
knomethe xubuntu team did those conscientiosly for a long time (thanks pleia2!) but because nobody else did them....19:52
knomebesides, we have our own work item tracker now which creates a timeline of completed work items automatically19:52

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