[07:37] good morning [07:49] morning [08:10] * dholbach relocates to the office, bbiab [08:34] morning [08:55] dholbach: shall you and I do the Q&A today? [09:03] how is everyone ? [09:07] great, but cold [09:15] hey popey - sure why not? [09:16] I can think of no good reason! [09:23] :) [09:31] dholbach: okay, created the event and updated the site [09:31] <3 [09:31] we're mega-early prepared for once 😃 [09:52] \o/ RPI2 just arrived for snappy playing [10:20] <_Sponge> It may be a good idea to tweet earlier about the ~hangout, just saying. [10:22] eh? [10:22] oh, yeah, we will [10:22] people have short memories though :) [10:47] <_Sponge> For I see you are winning :-) [14:19] popey: dholbach: I'm past due for being on the hangout, I'd be happy to swap with one of you if you'd like [14:20] sure, that wfm too [15:03] mhall119, balloons, team call? [15:07] <_Sponge> 50 minutes to-go :) [15:45] mhall119: dholbach I'll start the hangout, just moving to my desk [15:45] dholbach: popey: is there a guest lined up for today? [15:45] I'm taking a quick break, see you in a bit [15:45] mhall119, the 3 of us - that's unusual enough :-P [15:46] ping jose [16:36] balloons: pong [17:22] all right my friends - I call it a day - see you tomorrow :-) [17:45] jcastro: re: discourse, so as far as I can tell, you have a couple options for "notifications" [17:45] jcastro: first is you can "subscribe" in the web UI, so when you go to a category, you will see a visual indication that there are new threads (not useful for me, I don't use the web UI) [17:46] jcastro: or you can go into your global preferences and "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" which sends you EVERYTHING, subscribed or not, unless, as it says, you specifically mute the topic [17:46] unless the ubuntu wiki gets any faster, i will tell all teams to move away from it :| [17:46] sigh [17:47] if there's a way to just subscribe to a single category by email, it makes discourse a bit meh for me [17:47] i have yet to hear anyone say they love our wiki [17:47] well i love our wiki [17:47] that is, the xubuntu wiki... [17:47] dpm: maybe a GSoC project to move our wiki to something better? :) [17:47] ^ [17:47] YES popey dpm PLEASE [17:47] knome: we could float the idea of a migration to mediawiki again, the migration wouldn't be pretty, but it scales better [17:48] might help all the brains [17:48] would love that [17:48] * dpm hears popey and wxl volunteering.... [17:48] Sure. [17:48] absolutely! [17:48] i'm afraid of the level of cooperation the IS is giving [17:48] knome: canonical folks can escalate internally ;) [17:48] i bet we could easily get a TEAM of people to handle that GSoC idea [17:48] yeah, totally [17:48] I know jcastro would be up for that [17:48] I recon we could get a crack team on it [17:48] it's currently a nightmare for community, and help.ubuntu.com/community is STILL locked down, going on 2 months now [17:48] GSoC or not [17:49] pleia2, i have heard that before, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't :) [17:49] indeed [17:49] so both wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community would likely want this treatment [17:49] +1 [17:49] I don't have time to fix the wiki [17:49] I just don't use it [17:49] pleia2, except that several people in the docs team think that the community wiki would just die [17:50] jcastro, neither do many people in the community - because it's so slow [17:50] knome: the docs people who hang around IRC, not the ones who are active contributors for it [17:50] pleia2, yeah, true [17:50] knome: I agree [17:50] knome: they are very distinct groups, and we're not serving the editors right now [17:50] totally [17:50] besides, that's just speculation [17:50] i don't think the community wiki should die, but it should definitely get some love [17:51] anyway, if we propose it as a GSoC project, we would have to confirm buy-in from Canonical IS first [17:51] I think we all know how frustrating it is to write a change and see it sit for 2 years [17:51] that's true [17:51] i think we're more likely to get it done with GSoC tho [17:51] it would probably need an ack from the design team too, because i'd imagine they would want it to have some kind of official looks for it [17:52] knome: yeah, good point [17:52] popey: as a member of the team behind our google thingys, could you check with canonical on the feasibility of implementing such a project? [17:52] unless they are willing to let the GSoC students handle the visual side too [17:53] wxl: i can certainly ask the right people [17:53] can't guarantee the answers we'll get [17:54] knome: i think the design should just follow our existing sites for consistency [17:54] <- not a designer [17:55] it's not like design have been knocking down our doors to redesign wiki.ubuntu.com for the last 5 years [17:56] popey, the thing is, a mediawiki theme is something completely different than a moinmoin theme, or any of the other themes [17:56] sure. [17:56] It's basically $work that someone needs to do [17:56] popey, sure, many people can imitate the looks, but i'm pretty sure the design team has some say to this [17:56] someone versed in theming mediawiki sites [17:56] of course [17:57] yeah, it's one of the many things to consider on a project this size ㋛ [17:57] well, not necessarily, but if the design team wants their framework to be used, the one that implements the mediawiki theme has to be able to work with that [17:57] i'm saying all this because i know it's not a small task. [17:58] sure. [18:04] While we're on the subject of shutting things down. [18:04] Any objection to mothballing the ubuntu-classroom lists? [18:05] they haven't had any traffic for ages. [18:05] I think ubuntu-classroom is done [18:07] if we could keep archives, that would be great [18:08] "done" as in already shutdown? [18:09] or "done" as in "not needed / expired"? [18:10] not needed anymore [18:11] ok [18:11] had to remove 150 odd spam mails from it this week [18:11] and that was less than a month's worth of spam, I last cleared it out around the end of january [18:12] anyway, I just went ahead and added a banner to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom menu saying the project is retired [18:12] sad day [18:12] :( [18:13] I'm happy it did serve its purpose during a good while, though. [18:13] * pleia2 nods [18:13] it had a good run :) [18:13] hehe, I remember running to a starbucks to give a session because my home internet was down :D [18:16] :) [18:16] I remember staring at the screen as I pasted line after line thinking "too quick?" "too slow? "Do you think they can read this?" [18:16] being really very deliberate about what I copy/paste [18:19] hehehe [18:19] it was my second project ever in the community, after launchpad answers [18:38] pleia2: popey: do we know if importing from moin to mediawiki requires access to the moin server? [18:39] or is it like "point to these two urls, slurp from one, push to the other." [18:40] it probably requires a dump of the back end content, which I imagine is stored in a database or series of files or something [18:40] it's not [18:40] moin is all files [18:40] nice [18:40] no database [18:40] that's why it's so slow [18:41] so access to those files then [18:41] we could [18:41] there's no way slurping would work [18:41] I was thinking from an ease-of-process perspective [18:41] we can barely load one page these days ;) [18:41] basically, if you don't need IS to get you access to gigs of files and do an import it could save a ton of time [18:42] there's no other way to have access to all the files, their caching protections prevent bots, and I fear we'd simply lose too much [18:42] lots of timeouts, etc [18:42] ah, right [18:42] well, I have a call with elmo next thursday, if there's an RT I can bring it up [18:42] iirc last time it was just a matter of resourcing [18:43] it's not like anyone love the current wiki and wants to keep it around [18:44] it still has lots of great content and people *want* to use it, but the slowness, timeouts and other issues make that difficult [18:44] the xubuntu team just stood up its own wiki [18:44] right, I don't think anyone is complaining about the content itself [18:44] I don't think there's an existing RT ticket saying "migrate to something else" [18:45] popey and I have talked about just getting into trouble and firing up an unofficial one and then seeing what happens [18:45] if there's general approval, I'd be happy to open a ticket to move it to mediawiki [18:45] even better, mediawiki is already charmed, which makes it easier to get it deployed on is servers [18:45] but yeah, definitely a resources things, but my hope is that after this switch much of the pain is reduced in maintenance, plus the community is happy \o/ [18:46] it would literally take us like 10 minutes to fire one up on a public cloud [18:46] should I send an email to ubuntu-community-team? [18:46] yep, yep [18:46] I'd just file the RT [18:46] well, I'd like to hear what others say, though I expect a lot of 'yes please' [18:46] "all in favor of keeping shitty software that makes people quit the project, say aye!" [18:47] I'll send an email and open an RT later [18:47] jcastro, mind if I send you the RT# later? [18:47] actually, the hard part would be SSO and stuff [18:47] right [18:47] I don't care when you file it, I've waited like 12 years, what's a few more hours ... [18:47] lol [18:49] jose: we'll need to tell the ubuntu-doc team too [18:50] pleia2: ubuntu-doc@l.u.c/ [18:50] ? [18:50] I know when I spoke to dpm at SCaLE about this he was keen not to just jump to MediaWiki, but to evaluate the options [18:50] Just saying that before someone does stuff and he gets cross [18:50] jose: yeah, just make sure you're subscribed so it doesn't get stuck in the queue [18:50] Not that i've ever seen dpm cross :) [18:50] pleia2: yup yup [18:50] popey: I'm writing an email to ask first :) [18:50] wise 😃 [18:50] all I want to do is watch the rm -fR [18:50] lol [18:51] * popey wonders if this would be "solved" by "just" keeping all of the wiki (attachments aside) in RAM :) [18:51] as it's all "just" files [18:52] I mean, surely nobody has actually just looked at what the performance bottleneck is? [18:52] and timing won't be a surprise, I just sent this email yesterday ;) https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2016-February/019713.html [18:52] it's the filesystem [18:52] I remember when this happened [18:52] we hit an ext4 limit [18:52] I imagine the wiki is basically these guys http://i.imgur.com/UG8wcJo.gifv [18:52] it's one text file per page [18:53] or sorry it was ext2 at the time: [18:53] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/moin/+bug/217191 [18:54] hehe, i remember that, that was fun [18:54] jcastro: btw, SSO shouldn't be a problem, the openstack wiki already uses mediawiki+launchpad/ubuntu SSO [18:55] oh rock and roll, that's awesome [18:57] ok, email sent [18:58] I wish mediawiki did native markdown [18:58] that would be so epic [18:59] jcastro: i haven't touched it yet but it seems like the plugins i've seen for markdown look like they'd work pretty well [19:03] pleia2: it's my understanding you can subscribe to a label and just get emails for that label [19:05] jcastro: is a label different than a category? x_x [19:06] sorry, I meant category [19:07] so I'm subscribed to "Cloud and Server" as "Watching" but it doesn't send me emails [19:07] I am not sure if we're set up for mails [19:07] it just gives me a visual indicator in the interface when I go to that category [19:07] I don't get any mails from the ubuntu one, I do get them from other discourse instances [19:07] the global setting for "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" works, but that's too many emails [19:07] apparently the mozillians have it set up so a user can do mail only if they want [19:08] well, today it's not too many emails, since the site isn't active, but I don't want to have to manually unsubscribe from categories [19:08] I've gotten 3 notifications in a couple days with that setting on [19:08] that's not how it works [19:08] I think you sub to each category like you would sign up for a mailing list. [19:09] is our site kept updated? I can't figure out how to do that [19:11] "Tracking" is what I use [19:11] that's like, topic mails instead of every single mail [19:11] ok, I'll try that [19:11] so click on a category [19:12] then it's the orange dropdown on the right, top of the page but not the header [19:12] yeah, that's where I set "Watching" before [19:12] so to get emails, it's "Tracking"? [19:12] jcastro, sounds easy... [19:13] pleia2: there's also mail settings on your settings page [19:13] ok, I turned off my global "get all the alerts" setting, we'll see if this works [19:13] knome: it's still much easier than say ... mailman [19:14] jcastro: yep, that's where the "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" setting lives [19:15] jcastro, i disagree; once you have registered, you will have mails for that list, period :) [19:17] well, you guys are the ones using emails [19:17] of course the experience is going to suck. :) [19:17] * popey covers mailman's ears so it doesn't hear the words from the bad man! [19:18] and just to show something, it's possible to make the mailman front page look easier to comprehend, a la https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel [19:21] jose: lol +2 already to keep moinmoin [19:31] every time I touch wiki.ubuntu.com, I'm all like: https://i.imgflip.com/zb213.jpg [19:32] :) [19:34] stupic IRC, can't even embed memes! [19:34] * svij goes over to mattermost/slack/… ;) [19:37] IRC saves us from the memes once again <3 [19:37] hehe [19:37] hooray for no-nonsense! [19:38] pleia2: btw, do you edit the UWN completely in the wiki? [19:40] I'm one of the "lucky" guys who do the german version of the UWN and we use etherpad mostly, so more people can contribute (and chat) on the same time. [19:40] svij: no, we start out in a google doc for most of the week, final copy sunday night and any small additional edits are done in the wiki [19:40] ah okay [19:40] we couldn't find an etherpad that was reliable enough for international collaboration [19:41] google docs, sadly, just works better for us [19:41] we use http://publishwith.me/ that seems to work on mondays. [19:41] but yes, we didn't have luck with other etherpad hostings [19:43] but we have one thing in common (sadly): not that many people contribute … (2 or 3 mostly) [19:44] We (podcast) have recently switched back to... (shock) Gobby! [19:44] It's much better than it was previously. [19:45] oh gobby [19:45] We even have it setup to export out all the gobby docs every 90s to a webserver, with some styling. Works a treat. [19:45] the good old days with gobby… :D [19:46] for UWN we needed a non-client solution, need to make it as easy as possible for people to write summaries (even then, it's a struggle) [19:46] "point web browser here, write, thx" [19:46] that's why we moved away from gobby [19:46] pleia2, you should write an irc bot that accepts submissions [19:46] * knome hides [19:47] knome: just what we need, yet another submission tool that no one uses [19:47] pleia2, nooo, everybody would use it [: [19:47] http://imgur.com/a/ddWU6 check that out! [19:47] It's like a wiki! [19:47] gobby is a web-thing now? [19:47] edit in gobby, nice and fast, get web pages out automagically, markdown -> html [19:47] no [19:47] ah [19:48] it needs to be real time [19:48] true, we have it spit out 90s, but it can be faster :) [19:48] anyway, google docs works fine for us, nothing to solve here [19:48] sure :) [19:48] the pain just comes when I have to copy things over to the wiki at the end of our cycle [19:48] the only bad thing about etherpad is, that it doesn't have any code-syntax-highlighting (+ it's our own special syntax) [19:49] sunday night, aaaarrggh [19:49] wut? [19:50] (btw, HOORAY TEAM REPORTS!) [19:50] (since we are making everybody feel sad already..) [19:51] haha [19:51] team reports? Did I miss something here? [19:52] the xubuntu team did those conscientiosly for a long time (thanks pleia2!) but because nobody else did them.... [19:52] besides, we have our own work item tracker now which creates a timeline of completed work items automatically