[07:37] <dholbach> good morning
[07:49] <MooDoo> morning
[08:10]  * dholbach relocates to the office, bbiab
[08:34] <popey> morning
[08:55] <popey> dholbach: shall you and I do the Q&A today?
[09:03] <czajkowski> how is everyone ?
[09:07] <popey> great, but cold
[09:15] <dholbach> hey popey - sure why not?
[09:16] <popey> I can think of no good reason!
[09:23] <dholbach> :)
[09:31] <popey> dholbach: okay, created the event and updated the site
[09:31] <dholbach> <3
[09:31] <popey> we're mega-early prepared for once  😃
[09:52] <popey> \o/ RPI2 just arrived for snappy playing
[10:20] <_Sponge> It may be a good idea to tweet earlier about the ~hangout, just saying.
[10:22] <popey> eh?
[10:22] <popey> oh, yeah, we will
[10:22] <popey> people have short memories though :)
[10:47] <_Sponge> For I see you are winning :-)
[14:19] <mhall119> popey: dholbach: I'm past due for being on the hangout, I'd be happy to swap with one of you if you'd like
[14:20] <dholbach> sure, that wfm too
[15:03] <dpm> mhall119, balloons, team call?
[15:07] <_Sponge> 50 minutes to-go :)
[15:45] <popey> mhall119: dholbach I'll start the hangout, just moving to my desk
[15:45] <mhall119> dholbach: popey: is there a guest lined up for today?
[15:45] <dholbach> I'm taking a quick break, see you in a bit
[15:45] <dholbach> mhall119, the 3 of us - that's unusual enough :-P
[15:46] <balloons> ping jose
[16:36] <jose> balloons: pong
[17:22] <dholbach> all right my friends - I call it a day - see you tomorrow :-)
[17:45] <pleia2> jcastro: re: discourse, so as far as I can tell, you have a couple options for "notifications"
[17:45] <pleia2> jcastro: first is you can "subscribe" in the web UI, so when you go to a category, you will see a visual indication that there are new threads (not useful for me, I don't use the web UI)
[17:46] <pleia2> jcastro: or you can go into your global preferences and "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" which sends you EVERYTHING, subscribed or not, unless, as it says, you specifically mute the topic
[17:46] <knome> unless the ubuntu wiki gets any faster, i will tell all teams to move away from it :|
[17:46] <knome> sigh
[17:47] <pleia2> if there's a way to just subscribe to a single category by email, it makes discourse a bit meh for me
[17:47] <wxl> i have yet to hear anyone say they love our wiki
[17:47] <knome> well i love our wiki
[17:47] <knome> that is, the xubuntu wiki...
[17:47] <popey> dpm: maybe a GSoC project to move our wiki to something better? :)
[17:47] <popey> ^
[17:47] <wxl> YES popey dpm PLEASE
[17:47] <pleia2> knome: we could float the idea of a migration to mediawiki again, the migration wouldn't be pretty, but it scales better
[17:48] <pleia2> might help all the brains
[17:48] <popey> would love that
[17:48]  * dpm hears popey and wxl volunteering....
[17:48] <popey> Sure.
[17:48] <wxl> absolutely!
[17:48] <knome> i'm afraid of the level of cooperation the IS is giving
[17:48] <pleia2> knome: canonical folks can escalate internally ;)
[17:48] <wxl> i bet we could easily get a TEAM of people to handle that GSoC idea
[17:48] <popey> yeah, totally
[17:48] <popey> I know jcastro would be up for that
[17:48] <popey> I recon we could get a crack team on it
[17:48] <pleia2> it's currently a nightmare for community, and help.ubuntu.com/community is STILL locked down, going on 2 months now
[17:48] <popey> GSoC or not
[17:49] <knome> pleia2, i have heard that before, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't :)
[17:49] <wxl> indeed
[17:49] <pleia2> so both wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community would likely want this treatment
[17:49] <popey> +1
[17:49] <jcastro> I don't have time to fix the wiki
[17:49] <jcastro> I just don't use it
[17:49] <knome> pleia2, except that several people in the docs team think that the community wiki would just die
[17:50] <knome> jcastro, neither do many people in the community - because it's so slow
[17:50] <pleia2> knome: the docs people who hang around IRC, not the ones who are active contributors for it
[17:50] <knome> pleia2, yeah, true
[17:50] <jcastro> knome: I agree
[17:50] <pleia2> knome: they are very distinct groups, and we're not serving the editors right now
[17:50] <knome> totally
[17:50] <wxl> besides, that's just speculation
[17:50] <knome> i don't think the community wiki should die, but it should definitely get some love
[17:51] <pleia2> anyway, if we propose it as a GSoC project, we would have to confirm buy-in from Canonical IS first
[17:51] <pleia2> I think we all know how frustrating it is to write a change and see it sit for 2 years
[17:51] <wxl> that's true
[17:51] <wxl> i think we're more likely to get it done with GSoC tho
[17:51] <knome> it would probably need an ack from the design team too, because i'd imagine they would want it to have some kind of official looks for it
[17:52] <pleia2> knome: yeah, good point
[17:52] <wxl> popey: as a member of the team behind our google thingys, could you check with canonical on the feasibility of implementing such a project?
[17:52] <knome> unless they are willing to let the GSoC students handle the visual side too
[17:53] <popey> wxl: i can certainly ask the right people
[17:53] <popey> can't guarantee the answers we'll get
[17:54] <popey> knome: i think the design should just follow our existing sites for consistency
[17:54] <popey> <- not a designer
[17:55] <popey> it's not like design have been knocking down our doors to redesign wiki.ubuntu.com for the last 5 years
[17:56] <knome> popey, the thing is, a mediawiki theme is something completely different than a moinmoin theme, or any of the other themes
[17:56] <popey> sure.
[17:56] <popey> It's basically $work that someone needs to do
[17:56] <knome> popey, sure, many people can imitate the looks, but i'm pretty sure the design team has some say to this
[17:56] <popey> someone versed in theming mediawiki sites
[17:56] <knome> of course
[17:57] <popey> yeah, it's one of the many things to consider on a project this size ㋛
[17:57] <knome> well, not necessarily, but if the design team wants their framework to be used, the one that implements the mediawiki theme has to be able to work with that
[17:57] <knome> i'm saying all this because i know it's not a small task.
[17:58] <popey> sure.
[18:04] <popey> While we're on the subject of shutting things down.
[18:04] <popey> Any objection to mothballing the ubuntu-classroom lists?
[18:05] <popey> they haven't had any traffic for ages.
[18:05] <pleia2> I think ubuntu-classroom is done
[18:07] <pleia2> if we could keep archives, that would be great
[18:08] <popey> "done" as in already shutdown?
[18:09] <popey> or "done" as in "not needed / expired"?
[18:10] <pleia2> not needed anymore
[18:11] <popey> ok
[18:11] <popey> had to remove 150 odd spam mails from it this week
[18:11] <pleia2> and that was less than a month's worth of spam, I last cleared it out around the end of january
[18:12] <pleia2> anyway, I just went ahead and added a banner to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom menu saying the project is retired
[18:12] <pleia2> sad day
[18:12] <jose> :(
[18:13] <jose> I'm happy it did serve its purpose during a good while, though.
[18:13]  * pleia2 nods
[18:13] <pleia2> it had a good run :)
[18:13] <jose> hehe, I remember running to a starbucks to give a session because my home internet was down :D
[18:16] <popey> :)
[18:16] <popey> I remember staring at the screen as I pasted line after line thinking "too quick?" "too slow? "Do you think they can read this?"
[18:16] <popey> being really very deliberate about what I copy/paste
[18:19] <jose> hehehe
[18:19] <jose> it was my second project ever in the community, after launchpad answers
[18:38] <jcastro> pleia2: popey: do we know if importing from moin to mediawiki requires access to the moin server?
[18:39] <jcastro> or is it like "point to these two urls, slurp from one, push to the other."
[18:40] <pleia2> it probably requires a dump of the back end content, which I imagine is stored in a database or series of files or something
[18:40] <jcastro> it's not
[18:40] <jcastro> moin is all files
[18:40] <pleia2> nice
[18:40] <jcastro> no database
[18:40] <jcastro> that's why it's so slow
[18:41] <pleia2> so access to those files then
[18:41] <jcastro> we could
[18:41] <pleia2> there's no way slurping would work
[18:41] <jcastro> I was thinking from an ease-of-process perspective
[18:41] <pleia2> we can barely load one page these days ;)
[18:41] <jcastro> basically, if you don't need IS to get you access to gigs of files and do an import it could save a ton of time
[18:42] <pleia2> there's no other way to have access to all the files, their caching protections prevent bots, and I fear we'd simply lose too much
[18:42] <pleia2> lots of timeouts, etc
[18:42] <jcastro> ah, right
[18:42] <jcastro> well, I have a call with elmo next thursday, if there's an RT I can bring it up
[18:42] <jcastro> iirc last time it was just a matter of resourcing
[18:43] <jcastro> it's not like anyone love the current wiki and wants to keep it around
[18:44] <pleia2> it still has lots of great content and people *want* to use it, but the slowness, timeouts and other issues make that difficult
[18:44] <pleia2> the xubuntu team just stood up its own wiki
[18:44] <jcastro> right, I don't think anyone is complaining about the content itself
[18:44] <pleia2> I don't think there's an existing RT ticket saying "migrate to something else"
[18:45] <jcastro> popey and I have talked about just getting into trouble and firing up an unofficial one and then seeing what happens
[18:45] <jose> if there's general approval, I'd be happy to open a ticket to move it to mediawiki
[18:45] <jose> even better, mediawiki is already charmed, which makes it easier to get it deployed on is servers
[18:45] <pleia2> but yeah, definitely a resources things, but my hope is that after this switch much of the pain is reduced in maintenance, plus the community is happy \o/
[18:46] <jcastro> it would literally take us like 10 minutes to fire one up on a public cloud
[18:46] <jose> should I send an email to ubuntu-community-team?
[18:46] <jose> yep, yep
[18:46] <jcastro> I'd just file the RT
[18:46] <jose> well, I'd like to hear what others say, though I expect a lot of 'yes please'
[18:46] <jcastro> "all in favor of keeping shitty software that makes people quit the project, say aye!"
[18:47] <jose> I'll send an email and open an RT later
[18:47] <jose> jcastro, mind if I send you the RT# later?
[18:47] <jcastro> actually, the hard part would be SSO and stuff
[18:47] <jose> right
[18:47] <jcastro> I don't care when you file it, I've waited like 12 years, what's a few more hours ...
[18:47] <jose> lol
[18:49] <pleia2> jose: we'll need to tell the ubuntu-doc team too
[18:50] <jose> pleia2: ubuntu-doc@l.u.c/
[18:50] <jose> ?
[18:50] <popey> I know when I spoke to dpm at SCaLE about this he was keen not to just jump to MediaWiki, but to evaluate the options
[18:50] <popey> Just saying that before someone does stuff and he gets cross
[18:50] <pleia2> jose: yeah, just make sure you're subscribed so it doesn't get stuck in the queue
[18:50] <popey> Not that i've ever seen dpm cross :)
[18:50] <jose> pleia2: yup yup
[18:50] <jose> popey: I'm writing an email to ask first :)
[18:50] <popey> wise  😃
[18:50] <jcastro> all I want to do is watch the rm -fR
[18:50] <jose> lol
[18:51]  * popey wonders if this would be "solved" by "just" keeping all of the wiki (attachments aside) in RAM :)
[18:51] <popey> as it's all "just" files
[18:52] <popey> I mean, surely nobody has actually just looked at what the performance bottleneck is?
[18:52] <pleia2> and timing won't be a surprise, I just sent this email yesterday ;) https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2016-February/019713.html
[18:52] <jcastro> it's the filesystem
[18:52] <jcastro> I remember when this happened
[18:52] <jcastro> we hit an ext4 limit
[18:52] <popey> I imagine the wiki is basically these guys http://i.imgur.com/UG8wcJo.gifv
[18:52] <jcastro> it's one text file per page
[18:53] <jcastro> or sorry it was ext2 at the time:
[18:53] <jcastro> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/moin/+bug/217191
[18:54] <popey> hehe, i remember that, that was fun
[18:54] <pleia2> jcastro: btw, SSO shouldn't be a problem, the openstack wiki already uses mediawiki+launchpad/ubuntu SSO
[18:55] <jcastro> oh rock and roll, that's awesome
[18:57] <jose> ok, email sent
[18:58] <jcastro> I wish mediawiki did native markdown
[18:58] <jcastro> that would be so epic
[18:59] <wxl> jcastro: i haven't touched it yet but it seems like the plugins i've seen for markdown look like they'd work pretty well
[19:03] <jcastro> pleia2: it's my understanding you can subscribe to a label and just get emails for that label
[19:05] <pleia2> jcastro: is a label different than a category? x_x
[19:06] <jcastro> sorry, I meant category
[19:07] <pleia2> so I'm subscribed to "Cloud and Server" as "Watching" but it doesn't send me emails
[19:07] <jcastro> I am not sure if we're set up for mails
[19:07] <pleia2> it just gives me a visual indicator in the interface when I go to that category
[19:07] <jcastro> I don't get any mails from the ubuntu one, I do get them from other discourse instances
[19:07] <pleia2> the global setting for "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" works, but that's too many emails
[19:07] <jcastro> apparently the mozillians have it set up so a user can do mail only if they want
[19:08] <pleia2> well, today it's not too many emails, since the site isn't active, but I don't want to have to manually unsubscribe from categories
[19:08] <pleia2> I've gotten 3 notifications in a couple days with that setting on
[19:08] <jcastro> that's not how it works
[19:08] <jcastro> I think you sub to each category like you would sign up for a mailing list.
[19:09] <pleia2> is our site kept updated? I can't figure out how to do that
[19:11] <jcastro> "Tracking" is what I use
[19:11] <jcastro> that's like, topic mails instead of every single mail
[19:11] <pleia2> ok, I'll try that
[19:11] <jcastro> so click on a category
[19:12] <jcastro> then it's the orange dropdown on the right, top of the page but not the header
[19:12] <pleia2> yeah, that's where I set "Watching" before
[19:12] <pleia2> so to get emails, it's "Tracking"?
[19:12] <knome> jcastro, sounds easy...
[19:13] <jcastro> pleia2: there's also mail settings on your settings page
[19:13] <pleia2> ok, I turned off my global "get all the alerts" setting, we'll see if this works
[19:13] <jcastro> knome: it's still much easier than say ... mailman
[19:14] <pleia2> jcastro: yep, that's where the "Send me an email for every new post (unless I mute the topic or category)" setting lives
[19:15] <knome> jcastro, i disagree; once you have registered, you will have mails for that list, period :)
[19:17] <jcastro> well, you guys are the ones using emails
[19:17] <jcastro> of course the experience is going to suck. :)
[19:17]  * popey covers mailman's ears so it doesn't hear the words from the bad man!
[19:18] <knome> and just to show something, it's possible to make the mailman front page look easier to comprehend, a la https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
[19:21] <jcastro> jose: lol +2 already to keep moinmoin
[19:31] <svij> every time I touch wiki.ubuntu.com, I'm all like: https://i.imgflip.com/zb213.jpg
[19:32] <popey> :)
[19:34] <svij> stupic IRC, can't even embed memes!
[19:34]  * svij goes over to mattermost/slack/… ;)
[19:37] <pleia2> IRC saves us from the memes once again <3
[19:37] <svij> hehe
[19:37] <knome> hooray for no-nonsense!
[19:38] <svij> pleia2: btw, do you edit the UWN completely in the wiki?
[19:40] <svij> I'm one of the "lucky" guys who do the german version of the UWN and we use etherpad mostly, so more people can contribute (and chat) on the same time.
[19:40] <pleia2> svij: no, we start out in a google doc for most of the week, final copy sunday night and any small additional edits are done in the wiki
[19:40] <svij> ah okay
[19:40] <pleia2> we couldn't find an etherpad that was reliable enough for international collaboration
[19:41] <pleia2> google docs, sadly, just works better for us
[19:41] <svij> we use http://publishwith.me/ that seems to work on mondays.
[19:41] <svij> but yes, we didn't have luck with other etherpad hostings
[19:43] <svij> but we have one thing in common (sadly): not that many people contribute … (2 or 3 mostly)
[19:44] <popey> We (podcast) have recently switched back to... (shock) Gobby!
[19:44] <popey> It's much better than it was previously.
[19:45] <svij> oh gobby
[19:45] <popey> We even have it setup to export out all the gobby docs every 90s to a webserver, with some styling. Works a treat.
[19:45] <svij> the good old days with gobby… :D
[19:46] <pleia2> for UWN we needed a non-client solution, need to make it as easy as possible for people to write summaries (even then, it's a struggle)
[19:46] <pleia2> "point web browser here, write, thx"
[19:46] <svij> that's why we moved away from gobby
[19:46] <knome> pleia2, you should write an irc bot that accepts submissions
[19:46]  * knome hides
[19:47] <pleia2> knome: just what we need, yet another submission tool that no one uses
[19:47] <knome> pleia2, nooo, everybody would use it [:
[19:47] <popey> http://imgur.com/a/ddWU6 check that out!
[19:47] <popey> It's like a wiki!
[19:47] <svij> gobby is a web-thing now?
[19:47] <popey> edit in gobby, nice and fast, get web pages out automagically, markdown -> html
[19:47] <popey> no
[19:47] <svij> ah
[19:48] <pleia2> it needs to be real time
[19:48] <popey> true, we have it spit out 90s, but it can be faster :)
[19:48] <pleia2> anyway, google docs works fine for us, nothing to solve here
[19:48] <popey> sure :)
[19:48] <pleia2> the pain just comes when I have to copy things over to the wiki at the end of our cycle
[19:48] <svij> the only bad thing about etherpad is, that it doesn't have any code-syntax-highlighting (+ it's our own special syntax)
[19:49] <pleia2> sunday night, aaaarrggh
[19:49] <knome> wut?
[19:50] <knome> (btw, HOORAY TEAM REPORTS!)
[19:50] <knome> (since we are making everybody feel sad already..)
[19:51] <popey> haha
[19:51] <svij> team reports? Did I miss something here?
[19:52] <knome> the xubuntu team did those conscientiosly for a long time (thanks pleia2!) but because nobody else did them....
[19:52] <knome> besides, we have our own work item tracker now which creates a timeline of completed work items automatically