| mdeslaur | \o | 17:01 |
|---|---|---|
| * stgraber waves | 17:01 | |
| * mdeslaur waves to Schrödinger's tech board | 17:01 | |
| pitti | o/ | 17:02 |
| pitti | there's some interesting discussion on u-devel@ about archive reorg episode VII | 17:03 |
| pitti | otherwise I don't see much of an agenda | 17:03 |
| mdeslaur | I like the proposal | 17:04 |
| pitti | TBH it sounds to me like trading in some short-term convenience for piling even more on top of our ever-growing tech debt long-term | 17:05 |
| pitti | "I can't build ubuntu touch because of that half-done Haskell transition" | 17:05 |
| pitti | and the like | 17:05 |
| pitti | but oh well, if people want that pain, so be it | 17:06 |
| kees | o/ | 17:06 |
| mdeslaur | pitti: hrm, I don't quite understand that example | 17:07 |
| pitti | but the thing that'll be an absolute disaster is to enable universe for image builds and (try to) disable it again at release | 17:07 |
| pitti | this will sooo not work | 17:07 |
| mdeslaur | pitti: oh, that part will never work, yeah | 17:07 |
| pitti | mdeslaur: well, half of the time the Haskell stack or other bits are uninstallable because of half-done transitions | 17:07 |
| pitti | mdeslaur: if we now start build-depending on that for a lot of crucial packages, we'll suddenly find ourselves in a position where we have to fix the entire <censored> Haskell transition (which happen like every month) before -proposed becomes installable again | 17:08 |
| pitti | mdeslaur: just look at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg | 17:08 |
| pitti | and imagine -- one uninstallable package in that mess will ruin your day | 17:08 |
| pitti | right now it ruins some universe packages, but *shrug*, they'll just stay in -proposed until someone cares, or get kicked out | 17:09 |
| mdeslaur | ah, I see what you mean...we now have to care about all the universe packages | 17:09 |
| pitti | because all of a sudden there is no boundary to what we call "supported" officially | 17:09 |
| mdeslaur | which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to care less | 17:10 |
| pitti | that's the kind of long-term trade-off that I mean | 17:10 |
| pitti | it might *seem* easier, but in half a year we might find it's a complete loss | 17:10 |
| pitti | I believe that the MIR process *has* to be painful and long | 17:10 |
| pitti | we already have way too much crap in main which people never get rid of | 17:10 |
| pitti | thus blowing up our images, security support, etc. | 17:10 |
| mdeslaur | yeah, I now see the issue | 17:11 |
| pitti | i. e. if you want to pull in a new toolchain to build your package, I think the onus should be on *you* to reconsider if you don't rather use the ubuntu "standard" technology/API | 17:11 |
| pitti | instead of "someone in the release team will figure it out two days before release" | 17:11 |
| pitti | so that kind of barrier is not a bug IMHO, it's a feature | 17:11 |
| pitti | and if anything they aren't high enough :) | 17:12 |
| pitti | </rant>, sorry | 17:12 |
| pitti | didn't mean to turn this meeting into a soapbox | 17:12 |
| mdeslaur | no, I think that makes sense, and it's something I had not thought about | 17:12 |
| mdeslaur | trying to get rid of a 5-year support commitment by opening up universe then makes universe something we have to support at least until release | 17:12 |
| mdeslaur | hm | 17:13 |
| pitti | well, if we don't want to support universe, we'd have to use less of it, not more.. | 17:13 |
| pitti | anway, no quorum, no official board, I suppose we skip the official meeting? | 17:15 |
| mdeslaur | so what we really need to something between main and universe, a buildmain or something | 17:15 |
| mdeslaur | yeah, I think we can skip | 17:15 |
| pitti | right, I proposed a main-build-deps component in the middle | 17:15 |
| mdeslaur | kees: did you have anything? | 17:15 |
| pitti | but that was rejected | 17:15 |
| pitti | stgraber: anything from your side? | 17:18 |
| pitti | (sorry, we actually do have quorum!) | 17:18 |
| stgraber | I did read the proposal back when it was still a WIP, haven't had time to follow much of the discussion since though | 17:20 |
| pitti | I'll follow up on the ML again wrt. the main-build-deps component | 17:21 |
| kees | mdeslaur: nothing from me | 17:21 |
| stgraber | tbh, for a while now the biggest pain with main promotions has been the multi-month delay for security reviews | 17:22 |
| pitti | right | 17:22 |
| stgraber | to the point where we've had to promote things basically on release week because it took so long to review, that resulted in a bunch of breakage in wily which we've had to deal with through SRUs | 17:22 |
| pitti | but that's not going to go away for things where a security review is actually relevant and requested | 17:22 |
| stgraber | that's also not something I'd expect to change with that bit of archive reorg | 17:22 |
| pitti | multi-month is certainly the issue which needs to be addressed | 17:23 |
| pitti | two weeks or so would be fine, but of course if there's too much demand for new stuff that should increase the pressure to maybe take a step back and ask "do I really need that" :) | 17:23 |
| stgraber | we could workaround the issue by having the security review be non-blocking. That is the MIR team requests the review by filing a separate critical bug on the package, but let the promotion go ahead regardless. | 17:24 |
| pitti | that sounds workable | 17:28 |
| pitti | if the MIR gets a new point "contingency plan if security review outcome is negative" | 17:28 |
| pitti | i. e. how the feature can be pulled without disrupting half of ubuntu | 17:28 |
| pitti | I just followed up to the ML wrt. the intermediate component | 17:29 |
| pitti | stgraber: want to follow up about the "speed up MIR reviews" proposal? | 17:29 |
| stgraber | overly busy right now but I may look into that next time I'm stuck on security review and get frustrated :) | 17:30 |
| mdeslaur | hehe | 17:30 |
| pitti | ok, I think we're done here? | 17:36 |
| * pitti waves good night | 17:37 | |
| stgraber | sounds like it | 17:37 |
| mdeslaur | thanks everyone | 17:38 |
| pitti | cheers | 17:38 |
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