[16:51] <belkinsa> Reminder, your Checkin-in with the CC is in less than 10 minutes!
[16:51] <belkinsa> Reminder, your Checkin-in with the CC is in less than 10 minutes!
[16:54] <pmatulis> what?
[16:54] <pmatulis> where do i check in?
[16:56] <belkinsa> In #ubuntu-meeting
[16:56] <belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[16:57] <belkinsa> pmatulis, I sent an e-mail a few days ago about: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2016-March/019751.html
[16:58] <pmatulis> going there now
[16:59] <dsmythies> belkinsa: Thnaks very much for the two reminder e-mails you sent in the last few days.
[16:59] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[16:59] <pmatulis> belkinsa: fyi, when i go to that wiki page i get 'Internal Server Error'
[16:59] <pmatulis> hi dsmythies
[16:59] <belkinsa> I know.
[17:00] <dsmythies> I get a server error also, but tried again and it worked.
[17:51] <dsmythies> pmatulis: are you here?
[17:52] <pmatulis> dsmythies: yep
[17:54] <dsmythies> pmatulis: Continuing from the CC meeting. I don't have a problem installing sever edition. I have a problem getting it working. Samba was a few weeks saga, the problem was a change since earlier 16.04 ISO's. You might have seen server team e-mails.
[17:54] <dsmythies> this last weekend dhclient, dhcpd, named, all broke.
[17:55] <pmatulis> dsmythies: no, i didn't see the emails
[17:55] <dsmythies> some apparomor profiles have to be disabled, then things work.
[17:55] <pmatulis> dsmythies: interesting
[17:55] <knome> since a lot of people seem to be around now, and in a cooperative mood, do those people want to try to solve some of the issues/questions we have open?
[17:56] <pleia2> I need to get back to $day_job
[17:56] <knome> hurr durr.
[17:57] <dsmythies> pmatulis: My point is that it gets to be very late in the cycle before I even have a system stable enough to use to review the serverguide with. Then things continue to change anyhow. for exmaple the chnage to /var/www/html was extremely late in the 14.04 cycle, after we had reviewed that area of the serverguide.
[17:58] <dsmythies> pmatulis: A couple of those issues from thr weekend have now been fixed.
[17:59] <dsmythies> pmatulis: my point with the change to systemd, is that myself I am just dicovering the issues now, and I was only ever on 14.04 before. I'm hardly the person to write about it on the serverguide.
[18:00] <knome> dsmythies, would it be impossible to run a system in a virtual machine?
[18:01] <GunnarHj> knome: I'm all in for solving open issues. The problem is that I was aware of the existence of such open issues that would prevent people from doing things. In my simple world the problem is a lack of volunteers willing to do things. Can you *please* be a little more specific than you were over at #ubuntu-meeting?
[18:01] <dsmythies> knome: I do run some virtual machines also. I admot to have fallen behind with them, as I need this main server working.
[18:01] <dsmythies> admot => admit
[18:03] <knome> GunnarHj, one of the problematic issues is the community wiki
[18:03] <knome> there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to proceed with that
[18:04] <GunnarHj> knome: Right, acknowledged.
[18:04] <GunnarHj> knome: But besides that?
[18:04] <knome> i don't remember the details of all similar discussions which have ended up in a stalled situation, since tbh, i try to forget...
[18:05] <dsmythies> pmatulis: I have a couple of server team threads: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2016-February/thread.html
[18:06] <GunnarHj> knome: Then how about a meeting to talk about the future of the wiki and *only* focus on that?
[18:07] <GunnarHj> knome: Suppose we are now talking about the community help wiki only.
[18:08] <knome> for now, yeah
[18:08] <knome> i've been open for that before, but now i'm really not sure
[18:09] <GunnarHj> knome: Aren't you sure you'd like a meeting to talk about the wiki? What do you propose instead to resolve the issues you mentioned above?
[18:10] <knome> i'm saying that i'm not sure if the meeting can solve any problems we haven't been able to solve before
[18:11] <knome> it is not like we're in a new situation, or something new has turned up
[18:11] <knome> well, except that that the situation is even more unbearable, but that clearly won't change the opinions people have on the future of the wiki
[18:11] <pmatulis> my honest opinion of the help wiki is to get rid of it and concentrate on actual documentation
[18:12] <pmatulis> but i guess that's too radical for most
[18:12] <GunnarHj> Isn't the real problem that we previously never took the time needed to finalize the discussions?
[18:12] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: +1
[18:13] <dsmythies> we tend to not drive things to conclusion.
[18:13] <knome> pmatulis, i'm open for that too (as most of the options), but that would then need to mean that the useful bits from the wiki were moved to the official documentation and that there was a promise they would be maintained in the official documentation
[18:14] <knome> pmatulis, the downside to that is that there would be no drive-by edits at that point, and that we wouldn't be gathering new bits in the same way (even if it might be slow now as well)
[18:14] <pmatulis> knome: i don't think we can promise anything but i understand what you mean. still, a wiki page is for the community, it should not be a personal item
[18:15] <pmatulis> knome: well, i'm not convinced of the value of drive-by edits
[18:15] <knome> pmatulis, yeah, that's another issue we seem to have with the wiki, but it's mostly not related to the docs team
[18:15] <pmatulis> in my mind, useful docs must be maintained consistently, in order for readers to have confidence
[18:17] <knome> true
[18:17] <knome> otoh, if there is no other information available except the two year old one... that's the starting point you can have
[18:18] <knome> and if you have that in the wiki, and user X needs to get it working, he will get it working, and can then do a drive-by edit to make sure the page is up-to-date
[18:18] <pmatulis> knome: i maintain the inverse position
[18:18] <pmatulis> out of date docs is worse than no docs
[18:19] <pmatulis> of course out-of-date is a spectrum
[18:19] <pmatulis> occasional inaccuracies are ok but not systematic ones
[18:20]  * dsmythies afk. will catch up in about 20 minutes.
[18:21] <knome> pmatulis, i'm fine with running the docs/wiki like that as well... but good luck getting a decision done on taking the wiki down.
[18:22] <pmatulis> knome: 'xactly
[18:22] <GunnarHj> pmatulis: That's true, and in an ideal world we would have enough volunteers to maintain an extensive documentation, which would make the wiki redundant. But in the real world I think the wiki is useful, despite of all its deficiencies. But one thing I'd like to see is that it's more clearly shown the nature of the community help wiki, as opposed to the official maintained docs.
[18:22] <knome> pmatulis, which is again my point; people X and Y have opinions, but since they disagree, nothing is done
[18:22] <pmatulis> knome: it looks like it's killing itself anyway. maybe we should just let it die
[18:22]  * knome shrugs
[18:22] <knome> i don't know
[18:22] <knome> got to go, bbiab
[18:24] <GunnarHj> I don't have time to participate in this discussion tonight. But I'd really like to attend to a well prepared meeting, where the various options could be discussed in a systematic manner.