=== maclin1 is now known as maclin === meetingology` is now known as meetingology === FourDollars_ is now known as FourDollars === sarnold_ is now known as sarnold === popey_ is now known as popey === lool- is now known as lool === jdstrand_ is now known as jdstrand === Pici` is now known as Pici [16:00] o/ [16:00] o/ [16:01] \o [16:02] ♯startmeeting [16:02] err, no [16:02] #startmeeting [16:02] Meeting started Thu Mar 3 16:02:49 2016 UTC. The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [16:02] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [16:03] #topic lightning round === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round [16:03] $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk) [16:03] xnox barry pitti doko bdmurray cyphermox chiluk slangasek caribou tdaitx infinity robru sil2100 [16:03] bah [16:03] i win [16:03] lol [16:03] Fixing d-i components: [16:03] - sysconfig, preseed, zipl-installer, rootskel, partman-partitioning, partman-base, debian-installer [16:03] Fixing bugs: [16:03] - bsdmainutils, console-setup [16:03] britney: [16:03] - pitti merged components-missmatches fix, so things [16:03] .. [16:03] barry, there is still outstanding germinate merge? [16:03] to review.... [16:03] also working a lot on getting curtin to do s390x/kvm stuff. [16:03] xnox: ack, i'll do those today [16:04] MR in progress, but it's not booting things yet. [16:04] * xnox is away during final beta milestone week. [16:04] * xnox needs to find people who want to help out with s390x image testing.... [16:04] and done. [16:04] virtualenv 14.0.5+ds-2; python-pip 8.0.3-1; debian bug #815864 for fixing `python3.5 -m venv` (but i will have a refinement hopefully later today); syncpackage nose2 0.6.3-1; syncpackage keyrings.alt 1.1.1-1 [16:04] Debian bug 815864 in python3.5 "python3-venv: unable to create a virtual environment" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/815864 [16:04] LP: #1508081; system-image 3.1 boards the train. [16:04] Launchpad bug 1508081 in ubuntu-system-settings (Ubuntu) "Fails to receive OTA updates" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508081 [16:04] deja-dup (LP: #1551989) hold on python2 for the desktop iso should be fixed once it gets promoted. still left, system-config-printer's transitive dep on samba-libs :( [16:04] Launchpad bug 1551989 in deja-dup (Ubuntu) "Demote deja-dup-backend-gvfs and install on demand" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1551989 [16:04] ahem, performance reviews [16:04] --done-- [16:05] autopkgtest: [16:05] - Charm up the recently added github test request support [16:05] - Discuss nesting of QEMU images, which enables things like installer or open-iscsi testing [16:05] - Fix apparmor profile on s390x [16:05] - Give ~canonical-kernel-distro-team the ability to (re)start autopkgtests via CGI [16:05] - Investigate failures of lxc and lxd runners with latest lxc/lxd, fix applied upstream now (#1551960) [16:05] - Split queues for ubuntu/ppa/upstream tests to avoid one starving the other two [16:05] - Teach LXC runner about new lxc-copy (lxc-clone and lxc-start-ephemeral are deprecated) [16:05] - britney: Review/merge xnox' component checking branch; disable component check for PPAs [16:05] - Fix kernel config/installation on our s390x autopkgtest z/VMs [16:05] - Set up upstream systemd PR tests on s390x [16:05] distro: [16:05] - resolvconf: fix upgrade failure (#1536335) [16:05] - systemd: More tolerant /etc/adjtime parsing (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/2638) [16:05] - ubuntukylin-meta: Update from wily to xenial seeds [16:05] - udev: Migrate broken vmware interface names on upgrade (#1550539) [16:05] - udisks: bug fixing, new upstream release 2.1.7, package for D/U [16:05] - upstart: Fix breaks/depends cycle on upgrades (#1541914) [16:05] - upstart: Fix tests to fix FTBFS [16:05] - Investigate RTC access error on ppc64el (#1410604) [16:05] misc: [16:05] - Debug arm64 initramfs build issue with Oliver [16:05] END [16:05] -ENODOKO [16:05] bdmurray: please go on [16:06] fixed issues with allow_bug_filing and errors_static_url in mojo spec [16:06] testing allow_bug_filing off / on after mojo spec run [16:06] mojo spec work (make e-t-daisy-app wait for e-t-cassandra) [16:06] mojo spec work (fixing cassandra install due to charm changes) [16:06] error tracker sprint preperations [16:06] investigation into grep changes LP: #1547466 [16:06] investigation into release upgrader bug LP: #1550741 [16:06] uploaded popularity-contest bug fixes (LP: #1545515, LP: #1545517) [16:06] Launchpad bug 1547466 in grep (Ubuntu) "grep switches into binary mode while processing a text file" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1547466 [16:06] Launchpad bug 1550741 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Upgrade failed - unauthenticated package (module-init-tools)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1550741 [16:06] Launchpad bug 1545515 in popularity-contest (Ubuntu) "xenial popularity-client submits compressed reports" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1545515 [16:06] Launchpad bug 1545517 in popularity-contest (Ubuntu) "xenial popularity-client regards successful popcon.ubuntu.com submissions as failures" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1545517 [16:06] reported popularity-contest cron.daily typo to debian [16:06] ✔ done [16:06] MIR: [16:06] - review s390-zfcp (bug LP: #1552218) [16:06] trusty: [16:06] - multipath-tools LVM & NVMe SRUs (bug LP: #1551828) [16:06] Launchpad bug 1552218 in s390-zfcp (Ubuntu) "[MIR] s390-zfcp" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1552218 [16:06] Launchpad bug 1551828 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "kpartx causes kernel oops when NVMe devices is not in blacklist" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1551828 [16:06] xenial: [16:06] - NM update FFE and testing [16:06] - add mokutil to live seed [16:06] - blacklist NVMe for multipath [16:06] - d-i iscsi initiator name (bug LP: #1540995) [16:06] Launchpad bug 1540995 in partman-iscsi (Ubuntu Trusty) "iSCSI volumes are not discovered during ubuntu 14.04.04 installation (Shinner)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1540995 [16:06] - debootstrap InRelease file support [16:06] - debootstrap inrelease support (bug LP: #1485511) [16:06] - debug isc-dhcp not renewing leases w/ bind9.10 (bug LP: #1551351) [16:06] - debugging network-manager DNS update [16:06] Launchpad bug 1485511 in debootstrap (Ubuntu) "ISST-KVM:CTE:R3-0:raing12: Base system install fails with "Debootstrap Error :Invalid Release signature (key id 40976EAF437D05B5) " using Ubuntu 15.10 latest daily build (20150805)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1485511 [16:06] Launchpad bug 1551351 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient does not renew leases" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1551351 [16:06] - discussing multipath-tools merge from Debian w/ rharper [16:06] - fix mokutil files disappearing after install [16:06] - fix ubiquity crash when non-free is disabled [16:07] - grub-installer fix for PReP installs on RAID devices (bug LP: #1550448) [16:07] - partman-iscsi intiatorName support [16:07] Launchpad bug 1550448 in grub-installer (Ubuntu Trusty) "[PowerVM] Ubuntu 16.04 does not install bootloader on multiple PReP partitions in Software RAID1 configuration" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1550448 [16:07] - testing LVM on multipath [16:07] - testing LVM preseeding [16:07] ±other stuff: [16:07] - Secure Boot discussion [16:07] - TPM setup [16:07] - a very long but productive DMB meeting [16:07] - packaging tpm2-tools & tpm2-tss [16:07] - unbreaking open-iscsi autopkgtests [16:07] - upstreaming debootstrap inrelease support [16:07] - upstreaming partman-iscsi/open-iscsi initiatorName fixes [16:07] (done!) [16:07] cyphermox: oh, wer're going to update NM again? [16:07] hopefully. [16:07] cyphermox: to 1.0.10, or something majojr? [16:08] 1.2, if it lands early enough [16:08] my turn? [16:08] ambitious :) [16:08] chiluk: please [16:08] Bug 1535349. Still needs sponsorship for coreutils. [16:08] A user is hitting similar issues to Bug 1012629 with preseeds, and I'm working through it. [16:08] bug 1535349 in coreutils (Ubuntu Trusty) "`df /dev/sda1` no longer reports information for /dev/sda1" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535349 [16:08] bug 1012629 in grub-installer (Ubuntu Precise) "grub-installer ignores "bootdev" setting in preseed file" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1012629 [16:08] done [16:09] no slangasek I suppose [16:09] Short week due to two swap days [16:09] Bugfix : [16:09] - Investigate kernel crash dump on compute node : [16:09] Most probably caused by conntrack dkms module. Need to identify source [16:09] in order to rebuild the module. [16:09] - multipath patch failure on reconnect [16:09] No config file used & default path_checker may be wrong [16:09] Development work: [16:09] - Sponsoring Network-Manager SRU for LP: #1515446 on wily [16:09] Launchpad bug 1515446 in network-manager (Ubuntu Wily) "network file systems in FSTAB no longer mount at boot with NetworkManager" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1515446 [16:09] ☑ Done [16:09] chiluk: I can look at your grub-installer and coreutils fixes [16:10] cyphermox please look at the coreutils fix first. [16:10] or maybe that has already been done ;) [16:10] arges has taken a few stabs at it.. [16:10] i'm checking to see where the upload is. [16:11] cyphermox, yeah coreutils still needs to be uploaded.. and then sru approved. [16:11] ok === Kilos- is now known as Kilos [16:11] tdaitx: ? [16:11] cyphermox fyi... It's essentially a backport of the df from vivid.. [16:11] since vivid seems to be working a bit more acceptably. [16:12] no tdaitx or infinity? [16:13] tdaitx just sent his report on teh ML [16:13] electricity troubles [16:13] lp:bileto [16:13] - fixed bug where new comment text box would clear during Ajax update [16:13] - updated from angular 1.3 to angular 1.5 (brings performance & bug fixes [16:13] Ephemeral PPA work: [16:13] - parallelized bzr branching and merging with asyncio coroutines, resulting in a 2x speedup [16:13] - lots of little fixes and progress, will probably have working builds soon [16:13] (done) [16:14] no sil2100 either [16:14] #topic AOB === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB [16:14] thanks cyphermox [16:14] ogasawara: anything from you in particular? [16:14] pitti: nope, thanks [16:15] Is there somebody who could look at bug 1547466? [16:15] bug 1547466 in grep (Ubuntu) "grep switches into binary mode while processing a text file" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1547466 [16:16] that rings a bell [16:16] * tdaitx is having eletricty troubles at home and suffering from really bad wifi outside of it [16:17] I thought that was an intended change [16:18] Based on upstream it is an intended change but it seems to be affecting a lot of people negatively and some builds. [16:18] we've been wanting to change our buildds to default to C.UTF-8, maybe that's just the final nail in the coffin [16:18] pitti: +1 [16:19] so, notabug, fix the users? [16:19] pitti, +1 [16:19] well, not sure [16:19] infinity would be cautious. [16:19] we could revert the change for xenial [16:19] it would explode on upgrades, yes. [16:19] well, really "fix the users when they try to output UTF or binary data to a non-UTF terminal" [16:19] but it's more complicated than just making grep -a the default [16:20] pitti: definitely [16:20] as grep has had a binary detection mode all the time [16:20] it just got a bit stricter now apparently [16:20] cyphermox, we default to UTF terminal, apart from our buildds. [16:20] cyphermox: s/terminal/locale/ [16:20] xnox: yes [16:20] this affects "grep something > outputfile" [16:20] (i. e. not strictly bound to terminals) [16:20] bah [16:21] I suppose grep checks LC_CTYPE, and if it sees an undecodable character it switches to binary mode [16:21] but no idea what it used before [16:22] pitti: you seem to understand the issue a fair bit, could you look into it more? [16:23] well, what do we *want* to do about it? [16:23] finally fix our buildds? revert the change? [16:23] but if we revert it, we'll be stuck with it for"ever" [16:23] we do want to fix our buildds regardless. [16:23] fix the buildds, I would think [16:23] on the off-hand email from steve, he did say given "grep" issue, we should push to change buildds to utf. [16:24] but e.g. infinity is ill at the moment. So, cjwatson - would you fix our buildds to run with C.UTF-8 by default? [16:24] * xnox wonders if we should have done so for the archive rebuild running now - to see how bad the fallout from that is. [16:24] vs current grep fallout. [16:25] xnox: zero, I hope -- or our stuff would be broken on UTF-8 locales which are being used on pretty much every real system out there [16:26] Yeah, it sounds like we should perhaps JFDI [16:26] well, there might be some debian test suites which currently rely on C [16:26] so "zero" is probably too optimistic [16:27] pitti, sure, the glibc test-suite will catch or some such. [16:28] cjwatson, shall i file a bug report against... launchpad? lp-buildd? [16:28] * xnox bets there is one already. [16:28] launchpad-buildd. we have a deployment planned soon anway [16:28] *anyway [16:29] so until that happens, should we revert the grep behavour in the meantime? [16:29] that'll probably require some bisecting to find out which particular commit changed it (and how exactly) [16:30] if we want to do this, I can look into it [16:31] it shouldn't take us long to deploy new buildd code, fwiw [16:31] please ack/approve https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-buildd/+bug/1552791 [16:31] Launchpad bug 1552791 in launchpad-buildd "please set default locale to C.UTF-8" [Undecided,Confirmed] [16:31] probably today/tomorrow [16:31] ack/approve> meaningless :) [16:31] do we cyurrently have lots of builds failing because grep? [16:31] oh, ok -- then let's not bother [16:31] right [16:31] with like "affects me", "me too" comments, +1, like, heart - etc. [16:33] ok, anything else? [16:33] Nope [16:34] then, thanks everyone! [16:34] #endmeeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology [16:34] Meeting ended Thu Mar 3 16:34:14 2016 UTC. [16:34] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-03-03-16.02.moin.txt [16:34] pitti: thanks! [16:34] thanks! [16:35] thanks! [17:00] #startmeeting CC Check-in Meeting [17:00] Meeting started Thu Mar 3 17:00:05 2016 UTC. The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [17:00] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC Check-in Meeting | Current topic: [17:00] Who is all for the Check-in Meeting for the Doc Team and QA Team? [17:00] doc team o/ [17:00] \o [17:00] I'm here. [17:00] Doc Team 17:00UTC - QA Team 17:30UTC [17:01] Any CC members? QA Team members? [17:01] o/ [17:02] Alright, let's get started. [17:02] Doc Team, what do you have to say about what you have done for this cycle? [17:02] hello everyone [17:02] o/ [17:02] #chair mhall119 [17:02] Current chairs: belkinsa mhall119 [17:03] As mentioned in the last couple of meetings, for the serverguide we lack subject matter expert input. The serverguide struggles to be current. [17:03] belkinsa: o/ [17:03] For the 16.04 cycle, the issue is compounded by the significant changes introduced by the change to systemd. [17:03] #chair hggdh [17:03] Current chairs: belkinsa hggdh mhall119 [17:03] Recall that the serverguide is only published for LTS cycles, and server people tend to only run LTS editions. I.E. we are just discovering systemd stuff now. [17:03] i'm on/off, we have a xubuntu meeting at the same time [17:03] dsmythies: who have you had help you with this in the past? [17:04] knome and I have spent a ridiculous amount of time dealing with the fact that the wiki at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ was first being spammed, and now has been locked down for 2 months [17:04] with it locked down, admins have to take wiki format diffs from community members on the mailing list to make changes to pages, so much work :( [17:04] pleia2: but that is unlocked again now, correct? [17:04] mhall119: nope, locked up again [17:04] was it getting spammed again? [17:04] I don't know [17:04] when was it locked again? [17:05] I don't know that either [17:05] And is there some DoS attack on it because of the spam like wiki.ubuntu.com or do you not know? [17:05] afaik, it never got unlocked [17:05] I told people to try and edit it after it worked for you, they couldn't knome replied to the ticket and they said it's locked [17:05] I see. [17:05] pmatulis: it was for a few minutes at least :) [17:05] pleia2: are you sure? [17:05] we confirmed it was unlocked [17:06] pmatulis: yes, I worked with mhall119 on it, he could edit it [17:06] pleia2: Glad to hear that you are on it, anyhow. It's utterly important that it soon can be edited by 'normal' people. [17:06] pleia2: but isn't he on some special group? [17:06] GunnarHj: I don't have time to be "on it", this is really frustrating [17:06] pmatulis: nope, that's why he was good to test it [17:06] ok, weird then [17:07] dunno how it can be unlocked for a day and then locked again [17:07] clearly someone in IS flipped it back and didn't tell us [17:07] but I have no idea when/why [17:07] it is locked for me, at leas [17:07] least* [17:07] I will follow up with IS again and see what's going on [17:07] or some auto-lock was put into effect [17:07] mhall119: thanks, it's really a problem [17:08] pleia2: understood, I thought we had resolved it, but evidently that was fleeting [17:08] #action mhall119 Follow up with IS about community help wiki lock down [17:08] ACTION: mhall119 Follow up with IS about community help wiki lock down [17:08] it seems appropriate to mention that wiki.ubuntu.com also has problems. lots of people are getting internal server errors. quite bad all around i would say [17:08] pmatulis: for a few days now I think, IIRC someone in IS was looking into it already but I will check on that too [17:09] Yes, I'm aware of that. I think we all are. [17:09] #action mhall119 Follow up with IS about community wiki lock down [17:09] ACTION: mhall119 Follow up with IS about community wiki lock down [17:09] As regards the desktop docs, there isn't much to say, since nothing has been done this cycle. Even if the Unity desktop hasn't changed much lately, some parts of the 16.04 desktop docs will be dated. [17:09] need a different action belkinsa :) [17:09] yeah, do it twice, just to be sure :) [17:09] IS stated most internal errors are a consequence of the scripts they run to erase/block spam, and that they were working on getting these scripts to run faster [17:09] pleia2: it's funny because it's true [17:09] #undo [17:09] Removing item from minutes: ACTION [17:09] TIL, meetingology has an #undo command [17:10] mhall119, you can add it since i don't know any better. [17:10] mhall119, I did undo it. [17:10] #action mhall119 Follow up with IS about wiki.ubuntu.com 500 errors [17:10] ACTION: mhall119 Follow up with IS about wiki.ubuntu.com 500 errors [17:10] GunnarHj, is it because there is no one working on the docs or what? [17:10] GunnarHj: was there a call for people to review the desktop docs in anticipation of updating them? I think I remember one, but I might have dreamt it [17:10] belkinsa: Yes. [17:11] I see. [17:11] all doc projects seem to be in a bad funk these days. it's really difficult [17:11] ah, looks like there was for server guide, but not desktop [17:11] GunnarHj: do we have a way to listing what is out of date? [17:11] pleia2: pmatulis posted a call for the server guide, but no such has been posted for desktop. [17:12] Maybe a call for the Desktop Docs is needed? [17:12] * pleia2 nods [17:12] mhall119: Serverguide help is spuratic at best. pmatulis puts out requests for help on the serverteam email list. [17:12] mhall119: No easy way, I'm afraid. Read the docs... [17:12] belkinsa: first we need someone to do it :) [17:12] Right, duh. [17:12] also make sure all the contribution docs are up to date, so we don't have people trying to help and failing [17:13] so a lot of work, very few (any?) people [17:13] GunnarHj: can the docs team identify and tag out of date docs for other contributors to work on, or would that be about as much work as just updating them yourselves? [17:13] For my part of it, I have been having troubles to get a working 16.04 system. I'm bogged down with that, and yet to move on to looking at docs with the new systems. [17:13] for serverguide, i maintain a table of stuff that is most pressing [17:14] pmatulis: that would be a good thing to point new contributors too (especially in a call for help) [17:14] pmatulis: samba is, suddenly, obsolete. This change was since the start of 16.04. [17:14] having a list to pick from is less daunting than having to find something first [17:14] mhall119: that's been done in my call for help :) [17:14] \o/ [17:14] and I included the call for help in the ubuntu weekly newsletter [17:14] ok, so do we need an action item for desktop guide call for help? [17:15] pleia2: ty for that [17:15] Identifying out of date docs if of course easier than also fixing it, but it would still take quite some time. I fear that we simply don't have the sufficient resources to do it. [17:15] * pmatulis hugs pleia2 [17:15] * pleia2 hugs pmatulis [17:15] GunnarHj: understood, but the investment might bring in new contributors to boost your resource in the future [17:15] dsmythies: yeah, will proll be dropping samba, sadly [17:16] GunnarHj: even if it's not a complete list, if you can put together 10 or 20 "most wanted" pages that need updates [17:16] mhall119: Indeed. And a call for help should be posted. [17:17] pmatulis: You can not drop samba, it is too important. The root issue is that we need subject matter expert input and we don't get it. [17:17] who would like to volunteer to put out a call for help on desktop guide docs? [17:17] dsmythies: experts on samba specifically, or server stuff in general? [17:17] dsmythies: actually, out of date docs are worse than no docs [17:18] mhall119: I can scream for help re desktop. [17:18] and having samba3 in Xenial is reaally out of date [17:18] thanks GunnarHj [17:18] we need subject matter expert inout for every section of the serverguide. I do not understand why doc contribution is not manditory for canonical employees. [17:18] #action GunnarHj to call for help on desktop docs [17:18] ACTION: GunnarHj to call for help on desktop docs [17:19] dsmythies: who was the last SME you had helping with those docs? [17:19] what is SME [17:19] subject matter expert [17:20] Srge Hallyen did a huge section on virtualisation. [17:20] dsmythies: interesting question. i try to push in that direction, in my own way [17:20] dsmythies: yes, he does LXC. that reminds me, we need a huge section on LXD now ;) [17:21] stgraber might be able to help with that too [17:21] LXC/D and libvirt [17:21] dsmythies: have you asked either of them to help with the server docs? [17:22] i know that they would like to help, but they're overloaded with other stuff [17:23] I told Serge a few times how very grateful we were for his conrtibution. Otherwise I have no idea who to ask. [17:23] i mentioned canonical doing upstream LXD docs. that may happen, but not in the near future. this can help, but not by much in the grand scheme [17:23] dsmythies: I'd recommend asking stgraber for help documenting LXD, he might even have some stuff already written than just needs to be converted to wiki markup [17:24] it would totally help if there was some general leadership for docs from canoncial [17:25] i don't mean there needs to be one person doing that only, but some sort of point-of-contact who could dedicate a few hours per week for it [17:25] knome: what sort of leadership do you mean. that only takes a few hours per week? [17:25] knome: what can someone from Canonical do that others can't? Is there some access or information that only we have? [17:26] mhall119: I don't know who stgraber is. pmatulis: can you take this? [17:26] like i said, i've already talked to those guys [17:26] dsmythies: he's the tech lead on LXD, he's written several blog posts about it too [17:26] mhall119, no information, but it would be helpful to see somebody overlooking it all [17:26] currently, i don't feel a strong leadership for the whole of the docs team [17:26] decisions are hard to make and lately it has looked like it's impossible [17:27] nobody is willing to take the leadership responsility or doesn't have the time for it [17:27] knome: right, I understand the need for leadership, but in my mind that could be somebody from the community as much as somebody from canonical [17:27] +bi [17:27] knome: I agree, re-leadership. [17:27] i can be somebody from the community, but since nobody has stepped up... [17:27] understood [17:27] Maybe we need one from Canonical and one from the Community? [17:28] of course ubuntu/canonical can just ignore documentation (because who reads any?!) but i don't agree it's a good idea [17:29] it would be great if we could have specifics on what your want such leadership to do. afaics, it's more we need a few persons to motivate people to help. without contributors there's nothing to manage/lead [17:29] It's nearing 17:30, but it seems that we don't have anyone from the QA team yet. [17:29] ok, this sounds like something where the community team in canonical should get involved, to advocate for employees to contribute more to docs, can somebody send an email us requesting that? I'll advocate for it in our next team call [17:30] pmatulis, from my point of view, we need somebody who has enough time and vision to lead the team and guide it into the right direction [17:30] for serverguide, I can e-mail. [17:30] i'm not talking even about the serverguide... i'm talking about the whole team [17:31] at the very least, someone who can nudge contributors to do something, hannie over in the ubuntu-manual team has quite an active crew and all she does is ask [17:31] one of the things the leader from canonical could do is talk with other people on canonical on docs we need [17:32] knome: that's something the community team can do [17:32] belkinsa: would e-mail go to that address on your reminder e-mail ( community-council@lists.ubuntu.com ) ? [17:33] and maybe some of the issues and disagreements that have led the team not being able to make decisions or take action could be resolved with the help from the community team [17:33] for example: what do we do in general with the community wiki? [17:33] dsmythies, um, yes. [17:33] the wiki threads always get away from us [17:33] (some want it shut down, some want to keep it as is, some want to change the platform...) [17:33] dsmythies: that goes to the CC, but not to the community team in canonical [17:34] knome: nods [17:34] and this is not the only issue the team has trouble with [17:34] knome: can you email the community team asking for us to drum up some docs help from inside the company? [17:35] or I can [17:35] knome: What, except for different opinions on the wiki, do we have *trouble* with? [17:35] it seems the community is the best entity to decide what to do with the community wiki [17:35] GunnarHj: different opinions, no one to decide [17:35] pleia2, i'll help you get that done [17:35] knome: ok, we'll etherpad later [17:35] GunnarHj, many alternatives have been proposed, but nothing has happened [17:35] clearly, the situation can't go on like it does now [17:36] #action pleia2 and knome to request help from the Canonical Community Team in recruiting documentation help from inside Canonical [17:36] ACTION: pleia2 and knome to request help from the Canonical Community Team in recruiting documentation help from inside Canonical [17:36] but there is always somebody who says we can't move on either, because they don't like the direction somebody is proposing (and willing to take action on) [17:36] knome: that's due to a lack of interest from the community. canonical cannot force the community to "be interested" [17:37] pmatulis, of course not, but if the community isn't "interested", why are all attempts to make the wiki work blocked? [17:37] knome: pleia2: if the docs team contributors could recommend a course of action on the wiki software, that would certainly help [17:37]