[01:11] <bluesabre> evening all
[01:11] <Unit193> Howja.
[01:11] <knome> hello bluesabre 
[01:12] <bluesabre> hey knome
[01:13] <knome> waiting for your comments on the docs mail :)
[01:16] <bluesabre> replied
[01:17] <knome> \o/
[01:17] <knome> also, another question
[01:18] <knome> would it be sensible to package just the user docs?
[01:18] <knome> i mean, leave the contributor docs out of the source too?
[01:19] <knome> because we don't really need it there, we just want to use the same assets
[01:19] <bluesabre> doesn't make sense to duplicate assets across two branches, that creates extra overhead and leads to mismatched assets down the line.
[01:20] <knome> yes
[01:20] <knome> but can we leave out the contributor docs out of the (source) pkg for good even if they are in the same branch?
[01:20] <knome> because that would be even better
[01:21] <knome> if it's a lot of work though, it might not be worth it to rip it off
[01:21] <knome> because when i wrote the mail i was just thinking "let's just not build the contributor docs"
[01:22] <knome> compared to "let's not have the contributor docs in the package at all"
[01:22] <bluesabre> it'd be some work - we'd have to make some changes to the makefile to create a new distributable source package (like `make distcheck`)
[01:23] <bluesabre> so it'd be like building a release for xfce software like parole, etc
[01:23] <knome> would that be one-off work though?
[01:23] <bluesabre> yes, should be a single time thing
[01:23] <knome> right, then that might be something we might want to pursue
[01:23] <knome> (no pressure..)
[01:24] <bluesabre> then future releases would be: 1) update version numbers in configure 2) make distchec 3) create package from generated source tarball
[01:24] <knome> how do you see this
[01:25] <knome> would it be better to do what you just described, or would it be just fine having some extra stuff (that's potentially outdated) in the source package?
[01:26] <bluesabre> i think its fine to have extra stuff in the source package
[01:27] <bluesabre> libreoffice, for example, has extra themes in its source package that may or may not be built based on if you're in debian or ubuntu
[01:27] <knome> yeah, but the point is that they might be valuable for some people
[01:28] <knome> and themes do not get "outdated" in the same way as documentation does
[01:28] <knome> i don't know if you read the whole discussion we had before already (probably not), but we also discussed about having to do SRU-like updates for the docs package for the contributor stuff
[01:29] <bluesabre> yeah, but if we're not building them and have direct links indicating the the up-to-date docs are online...
[01:29] <knome> to make sure anybody running, say, 16.04 doesn't have the correct contributor stuff...
[01:29] <knome> s/correct/incorrect/
[01:29] <bluesabre> i think it makes perfect sense to update the docs for SRU
[01:29] <knome> user docs, yes
[01:29] <knome> but contributor docs?
[01:30] <knome> it kind of feels a bit moot
[01:30] <knome> the contributor docs are *never* release-specific
[01:30] <bluesabre> unless they're in the `trusty`, `xenial` branches, right?
[01:30] <knome> nope.
[01:30] <knome> not even then
[01:31] <knome> they are only in those branches because they have to be
[01:31] <bluesabre> I think I might be confused then
[01:31] <bluesabre> what do we mean by user/contributor docs?
[01:31] <knome> user is the usual documentation
[01:31] <knome> contributor is the stuff that has the strategy document etc.
[01:32] <knome> user --> http://docs.xubuntu.org/1510/C/index.html
[01:32] <bluesabre> if you're going to contribute, you'll have to connect to the internet, unless we accept flash drives in the mail, right? :D
[01:32] <knome> contributor --> http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/
[01:32] <knome> ...how are you going to contribute to xubuntu without a internet connection anyway?
[01:32] <bluesabre> right
[01:32] <knome> send a pigeon with a 10-page diff?
[01:32] <bluesabre> :D
[01:33] <bluesabre> works for xfce, no commits in that time
[01:33] <knome> /o\
[01:33]  * bluesabre burns himself
[01:33] <knome> anyway, too borderline that this would ever happen
[01:33] <knome> i thought about that too
[01:33] <knome> for about 2 milliseconds
[01:33] <bluesabre> contributor docs can be stagnant in a release, as long as there is a clear indication that the latest are at x
[01:34] <knome> but we don't want to build them
[01:34] <knome> so it would mean they are only in the source package
[01:34] <bluesabre> oh right
[01:34] <bluesabre> so we have a landing page in the user docs
[01:34] <knome> so the question is if we want to make sure they aren't even in the source
[01:34] <knome> yes, http://docs.xubuntu.org/1510/
[01:35] <knome> for 16.04, it actually links to the contributor docs that are built
[01:35] <knome> ...for now
[01:35] <bluesabre> I don't think its that big of a deal if they're in the source
[01:35] <knome> yes
[01:35] <knome> if you had read my mail... ;)
[01:35] <bluesabre> pretty sure i did
[01:36] <knome> " - Since the contributor documentation would still be available in the source package, make sure the source has a note pointing to the newest branch in case somebody wants to build the contributor documentation (I can take this item too)"
[01:36] <knome> along with " - While keeping both documentation sources in the same branch, drop contributor documentation from the default build target, thus, not shipping it with the built documentation on the ISO"
[01:36] <bluesabre> who is grabbing the source package to look at docs though?
[01:36] <knome> i don't know.
[01:37] <bluesabre> and especially without internet
[01:37] <bluesabre> :D
[01:37] <knome> so i guess the only question left is
[01:37] <knome> is it naughty to essentially change the source package
[01:37] <knome> with for example a translation update
[01:38] <knome> meaning, change more than just the translations in the source package
[01:38] <knome> eg. if/when we have an update for the contributor docs after the docs freeze, then we do the translation update upload
[01:39] <knome> or are source packages not subject to freezes (when they don't affect the packages itself)
[01:39] <bluesabre> shouldn't matter then, the docs package that is being created only has translation differences, even if the other source has changed
[01:39] <knome> "other source"?
[01:39] <knome> it's still the doc package source
[01:39] <bluesabre> right
[01:40] <bluesabre> bad words
[01:40] <bluesabre> distracted by cat getting in face and being annoying
[01:40] <knome> haha
[01:40] <bluesabre> the other parts of the source (that are not in fact packaged)
[01:40] <knome> yeah
[01:40] <knome> if that's not a problem, then ok
[01:41] <bluesabre> I'd argue if anybody raised questions about it
[01:42] <knome> ...otoh, if the alternative is to take a one-time task and get the contributor docs out of the package...
[01:42]  * knome shrugs
[01:42] <knome> ultimately, i don't care how it's technically dealt with
[01:43] <knome> as long as it's sensible for all parties involved with it
[01:43] <bluesabre> I *might* get fancy with a makefile that could accomplish that
[01:43] <bluesabre> but its a pretty low priority
[01:43] <knome> yep
[01:43] <bluesabre> I'd rather just argue with folks
[01:43] <bluesabre> :D
[01:43] <knome> i would think the next high priority thing is revert the startpage change
[02:12] <knome> ok, bedtime
[02:12] <knome> ttyl
[05:43] <dkessel> knome: +1 on the contributor Docs change idea
[08:51] <flocculant> knome: lots of words ... do any mean I need to think again? 
[08:54] <HaloSponge> Morning flocculant
[08:59] <flocculant> hi HaloSponge 
[09:02] <HaloSponge> flocculant: Are you stil 'packaging' for 16.04, like Kubuntu is doing at the moment ?
[09:03] <flocculant> HaloSponge: afaik other than any bug fixes landing - we'll not be adding anything now
[09:03] <flocculant> or shouldn't be 
[09:04] <HaloSponge> ok ... What's on the agenda for Xubuntu over the next few weeks, then ?
[09:04] <flocculant> wallpaper competition
[09:04] <flocculant> testing
[09:04] <flocculant> bit late to be adding things now
[09:05] <HaloSponge> I'll do some testing for you .
[09:05] <flocculant> \o/
[09:05]  * HaloSponge makes a promise :)
[09:05] <flocculant> HaloSponge: do you read the dev mailing list? 
[09:05] <flocculant> if you do - that's where I call for anything ;)
[09:05] <HaloSponge> Xubuntu seems to have come a_long way :)
[09:05] <flocculant> it has :)
[09:06] <flocculant> I remember looking way way back and wandering off
[09:06] <HaloSponge> I concur.#
[09:07] <HaloSponge> I remember the screensaver was a pet peev, of mine. Kept coming on after I'd changed the settings to 'blank' the screen ... with no way around it.
[09:08] <HaloSponge> i.e. I wanted screensaver to go away.
[09:09] <flocculant> :)
[09:09] <flocculant> well I never had issues like that 
[09:10]  * HaloSponge is very clever .
[09:11] <HaloSponge> He's done csomething for the first time.
[09:11] <HaloSponge> I pasted this link....
[09:11] <HaloSponge> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-bugs
[09:11] <HaloSponge> into here.
[09:11] <HaloSponge> https://www.bountysource.com/search?query=https:%2F%2Flaunchpad.net%2F~xubuntu-bugs
[09:12] <HaloSponge> But I think I have crashed bountysource, though.
[09:12] <flocculant> oops
[09:12] <HaloSponge> Does Xubuntu accept bounties ?
[09:12] <flocculant> there has been talk about it - but as I never do code I tend to not take much notice 
[09:13]  * HaloSponge is really Bobba |Fetts Uncle :)
[09:14] <flocculant> well nice to talk to you - I'm off out for a bit now
[09:14] <HaloSponge> flocculant: I need a cigarette. Can you think of something interesting to say in the next 4 minutes so I come back to a problem-to-solve or something ? Cheers.
[09:15] <flocculant> HaloSponge: fix community involvement in testing for us
[09:15] <flocculant> I'll be back in a couple of hours and will be interested to see what you come up with :)
[09:21] <HaloSponge> Fair enough. It was a good smoke .. plenty of boats in the bay ... had a chat with a bird or two. Say alot is happening in Spain at the moment. But you can never trust a chaffinch.
[09:37] <HaloSponge> I'm off .. c u later.
[11:44] <bluesabre> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2016-March/001176.html
[11:49] <flocculant> bluesabre: yea - saw it - wish I could vote for you :)
[11:49] <flocculant> good luck old chap ;)
[11:53] <dkessel> what the hell is a debian ".menu" file and does having it in a debian package somehow automatically cause a .desktop file to be created out of it? meh...
[11:54] <dkessel> trying to understand what the patch for a package would be, to help with the appstream data stuff...
[12:03] <dkessel> mh nevermind, i might not need to understand that in order to help :p
[12:07] <HaloSponge> back again .. good racketball session at the club house this 'mornin
[12:08] <kryten> dkessel: Basically though, both of those are independent.
[12:08] <bluesabre> dkessel: to answer your first question, https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu.html/ch3.html
[12:10] <flocculant> wb HaloSponge :)
[12:11] <HaloSponge> hi there.
[12:38]  * flocculant has a go with 14.04>16.04 in kvm today 
[13:06]  * bluesabre wishes flocculant the best
[13:18] <flocculant> :)
[13:26] <kryten> GridCube: Ftm, he has asked the same in #ubuntu.
[13:26] <GridCube> que?
[13:27] <GridCube> oh, the search scope?
[13:27] <kryten> "< peterkotan> k1l: yeah i dont really know what to use for" :3
[13:27] <GridCube> kryten: P: this is -devel
[13:27] <kryten> And nope. :D
[13:28] <kryten> Crap. :D
[13:46] <flocculant> bluesabre: so that failed then ... 
[13:51] <flocculant> terminal window says it's doing something with /etc/gnome/defaults.list - above that some other thing
[13:54] <flocculant> funnily enough - all the fails I've seen have faltered at that defaults.list - but above something different - udisks/module-init-tools/libutempter0 - all show defaults.list in the terminal window of the upgrader 
[13:55] <flocculant> trying with an updated 14.04.1 rather than .4 - cypher mox said he'd got one to upgrade yesterday
[14:15] <kryten> knome: Btw, I've stopped looking into fixing the PDF build fails properly after suggesting the least bad hacky solution. :P
[14:16] <kryten> ...Or pointing out, rather.
[14:31] <bluesabre> sounds to me like the best solution would be find an alternative to fop or stop building PDFs
[15:12] <flocculant> \o/ 
[15:13] <flocculant> another thing to apparently hang on
[15:13] <flocculant> even though the terminal says /etc/gnome/defaults.list ... 
[16:13] <flocculant> bluesabre: jfi - got all the upgrades to eventually get there. Took a fail report on the tracker for me to wake up and dpkg --configure -a
[16:13] <flocculant> obviously still fail - but at least we can get to a working xenial from trusty
[17:26] <HaloSponge> Hello peeps ! How's it hanging ?
[18:43] <flocculant> bluesabre: bug 1557349
[19:04] <pavlushka> if anyone faced the bug #1556531?
[19:08] <pavlushka> and is it a crime not to call sudo being root? bug #1556542
[19:10] <pavlushka> and also I cant set my external display as primary, bug #1556438
[19:19] <kryten> pavlushka: Well, if you're already root, no need to call sudo, of course.  But how do you become that in the first place then?  (I'd suggest "sudo -i".)
[19:20] <pavlushka> set root passwd, then login as root.
[19:20] <kryten> Eww.
[19:20] <kryten> !root
[20:12] <Unit193> bluesabre: Oh right.  And didn't say last night, but good luck you crazy man.
[21:22] <knome> flocculant, the mail basically summarises what we discussed and proposes the same thing i said then, so no
[21:26] <flocculant> knome: ack - was more all the words in channel - not the mail :)
[21:27] <knome> aha
[22:23] <ochosi> knome: i presume you've considered adding a link to the devel ML in the dev.x.o header, right?
[22:49] <knome> ochosi, yes.
[22:50] <knome> ochosi, have you considered looking at the media manager article?