[20:27] <hggdh> OK. The election for the 3 slots available on the IRC Council is now open. If you did not receive an email with the link to vote (*and* you are a member of the Ubuntu IRC Team on Launchpad), then yell.
[20:28] <Flannel> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2016-March/001844.html
[21:04] <Fuchs> hggdh: yell
[21:05] <Fuchs> (Fuchs on lolpad)
[21:07] <dax> Fuchs: cannot be, that lolpad member is part of the freenode staff team
[21:07]  * dax ducks
[21:08]  * Fuchs looks at his emeritus cloak
[21:08] <Fuchs> yes, about correct
[21:08] <Fuchs> there are various other former members as well, I think it's supposed to be that way
[21:08] <Fuchs> anyway, I didn't get an e-mail, so I can't vote against rww
[21:08] <dax> o
[21:08] <dax> either that or it's stuck in an alternate universe where martinp23 is still a staffer
[21:09] <Fuchs> please fix, Flannel or hggdh or whoever is responsible
[21:09] <Fuchs> dax: and ldunn
[21:09] <Fuchs> and Pricey
[21:09] <Fuchs> and Elwell ... the list goes on
[21:09] <dax> maybe it should just be renamed to ~freenode-staff-emeritus :3
[21:09] <Fuchs> I like it the way it is
[21:09] <dax> i'd count and see which is more accurate but i can't be bothered
[21:09] <Fuchs> please don't make them change it, thank you.
[21:10] <Fuchs> now back to the problem at paw
[21:10] <dax> the relevant people have been poked :P
[21:10] <Fuchs> good, good
[21:10] <Flannel> Fuchs: Where do you want it sent?
[21:10] <Fuchs> Flannel: ubuntu at fuchsnet dot ch    is fine
[21:10] <Fuchs> I think, give me a minute
[21:11] <Flannel> Fuchs: I'll ignore that last statement and wait for the one in a minute
[21:11] <Fuchs> yes, that is fine
[21:11] <Flannel> Ok
[21:11] <Fuchs> ♥
[21:11] <k1l_> are your sure the email you set at launchpad is working?
[21:11] <dax> (it might just be very hidden)
[21:11] <Fuchs> k1l_: yes
[21:11] <dax> (mine is too but Flannel knows where i live so)
[21:11] <Fuchs> k1l_: it's a known issue with hidden e-mail addresses, I thought it was resolved by now, apparently not
[21:12] <dax> Fuchs: it's resolvable by having the CC poke Canonical IS for email addresses, which bleh
[21:12] <Flannel> Fuchs: I sent it to the primary email in your GPG key, for reference.
[21:12] <Fuchs> huh, whatever that one is  *checks*
[21:12] <Fuchs> nooo, nonono
[21:12] <Fuchs> that one has not been working for ages  *goes replace*
[21:13] <k1l_> aha, totally a launchpad issue ;p
[21:13] <dax> i should probably re-sign my GPG key one of these years. it's been expired for a long while
[21:13] <dax> by which i mean a year and a bit
[21:14] <Flannel> Fuchs: You should have an email.
[21:15] <Fuchs> k1l_: it is a launchpad issue, see above
[21:15] <dax> i'm not sure that "hidden emails are hidden" is a launchpad issue?
[21:15] <Fuchs> it should™ go to the e-mail address(es), which are still correct, but it can't
[21:16] <dax> considering the email finder we used pulls emails with the permissions of the logged in user, so it's set to "hidden from all" not "hidden from signed-out users"
[21:18] <Fuchs> yes, but taking an e-mail from gpg keys is somewhat silly from an UX perspective, as there is zero guarantee that this is a valid e-mail at this point, nor that user wants or expects e-mails regarding launchpad to it
[21:18] <Fuchs> so the proper fix is what you mentioned above
[21:18] <dax> that's not a bug in Launchpad, that's a bug in Flannel
[21:18] <Fuchs> or having a function to contact group members in lolpad, either works
[21:19] <Flannel> dax: I'm pretty sure it's a feature.
[21:19] <dax> a function to send one email and have it go to all members of a group in Launchpad 1) exists, 2) doesn't work for CIVS voting
[21:20] <dax> b/c CIVS wants a list of email addresses so it can send unique keys to each
[21:20] <Fuchs> and that needs fixing
[21:20] <Flannel> Fuchs: Dud you get the email?
[21:20] <Fuchs> Flannel: yes, thank you :)
[21:21] <Fuchs> thinking of it
[21:21] <Fuchs> that vote page is one massive Usability issue as well
[21:22] <dax> i think your complaint list reduces to
[21:22] <dax> i think your complaint list reduces to "make voting in Launchpad not terrible so people don't ignore it and use an external provider"
[21:22] <Fuchs> that would work, yes
[21:23] <Fuchs> one could also implement an IRC poker in that e-mail fetcher *nods*
[21:23] <Fuchs> there are libraries for it in most sane programming languages, and most insane ones, too
[21:23] <Fuchs> (yes, that's a stupid idea, but given gpg keys are considered, it's not that odd)
[21:30] <hggdh> well, yes, the email harverster has a few limitations. This is why Flannel was telling everybody to contact him (as I did here)
[21:30] <Fuchs> yes, that worked :)
[21:30] <hggdh> well, not *everybody*, but just these that did not get an email
[21:31] <hggdh> well, not just those that did not receive an email, but *also* are members of the IRC team
[21:31] <hggdh> uff
[21:32] <hggdh> Fuchs: so... re you going to update your GPG keys so that the first email there works?
[21:32] <Fuchs> hggdh: already done, but personally I recommend not using that, as per the above
[21:33] <Fuchs> gpg keys are not at all meant to be a ressource for valid e-mail addresses, so I'd rather put a state of "failed delivery" there and try to poke people instead of assuming that worked
[21:33] <hggdh> Fuchs: yeah. I had not considered the GPG email issue.
[21:34] <Fuchs> (note that there is also zero validation of these e-mail addresses, so people preferring to not receive spam might put nonsensical ones there)
[21:34] <hggdh> we could change it but this will mean more work for the voting maestro (as only the maestro can add new emails to the voting)
[21:35] <hggdh> I know about that. But there is nothing we can do. For example, you could open a LP account with one email, then stop using it.
[21:35] <Fuchs> I recommend not using it and creating a list of unreachable people (due to no e-mail address found), then trying to poke these
[21:35] <Fuchs> or what dax suggested
[21:36] <dax> hggdh: (it's the ubuntu irc members team, not the irc team. they're different things because lolidfk)
[21:37] <Fuchs> I think I'm even in both *checks*
[21:37] <hggdh> dax: indeed. I thought of the Ubuntu IRC team, and just wrote IRC team. My bad.
[21:37] <hggdh> crap
[21:37] <hggdh> Ubuntu IRC members team

[21:37] <Fuchs> apparently I am in both
[21:37] <hggdh> goot
[21:38] <dax> another example of how our LP stuff is broken as hell
[21:38] <dax> this is the voting group: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-members
[21:38] <dax> this is what is named "IRC Team" in LP: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc
[21:38] <dax> this is the IRC Team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ops
[21:38] <Fuchs> well, -ish
[21:38] <hggdh> we should really, really, restructure it
[21:38] <Fuchs> -ops is only core, isn't it?
[21:39] <dax> Fuchs: which is what the IRC Team is.
[21:39] <hggdh> I guess so, mosta
[21:39] <dax> it's literally the group of people who manage core channels
[21:39] <Fuchs> dax: in whose terminology?
[21:39] <dax> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam
[21:39] <dax> Fuchs: IRCC + CC
[21:39] <Fuchs> lovely, so we have at least two ♥
[21:39] <Fuchs> probably 3
[21:40] <dax> core channels are managed by the IRC Team, non-core channels are managed by the relevant team that uses them, IRCC has oversight over everything that happens in the ubuntu namespaces but more directly manages the IRC Team
[21:42] <dax> that part of the back of your head which is now screaming is the part of my head that finds such things highly amusing, fwiw
[21:43] <hggdh> in simpler words, the IRCC manages all of the ubuntu namespace, except where it does not.
[21:43] <dax> depends on definition of "manages" :)
[21:43] <dax> it's delegated to have oversight over the lot of it, and it also directly manages the team that handles core channels
[21:44] <dax> but then we also get into the bit where from freenode's point of view there are five (or four, but i think that got fixed) people with teh ultimate powahz over the ubuntu namespaces, and what is a community council
[21:45] <dax> it's all very confusing and thank god a decent number of people have been around for years and keep it all straight
[21:46] <Fuchs> This will all be fixed by GMS
[21:46] <Fuchs> which will be a launchpad module
[21:46] <Fuchs> coded by jzk
[21:46] <Fuchs> then we can vote on IRC, he already coded that
[21:46] <dax> GMS will, highly-entertainingly actually make it worse
[21:47] <dax> because under GMS, you /have/ to get a GC's attention to register a primary namespace channel, whereas right now it's mostly self-service and the IRCC only has to get involved if stuff goes wrong
[21:47] <Fuchs> why should?
[21:47] <Fuchs> ah, that
[21:47] <Fuchs> depends
[21:47] <Fuchs> it's not clear what happens with existing # channels nor whether registration will be completely blocked, as far as I know
[21:47] <dax> well, that's how it was on testnet, and i haven't seen the staffer side of it, maybe there are config settings that mitigate that
[21:47] <Fuchs> in either case, it will take ages until that is implemented
[21:48] <dax> actually, i'm fairly certain there are config settings that mitigate that now that i think more, so yeah, who knows
[21:49] <Fuchs> the code is on GitHub, feel free to check, I won't touch that with a 2000ft stick
[21:50] <dax> 1) dax pays attention to GMS, 2) dax fears for the future of humanity, 3) dax makes snarky remarks at #freenode, 4) dax gets yelled at by mst, 5) dax stops paying attention to GMS, 6) time passes, 7) goto 1
[21:50] <Fuchs> also mst should be a list
[21:51] <dax> although to be fair said comments mostly revolved around the topic of "this thing has taken so long to code that there are kids in middle school born after it"
[21:51] <dax> apparently i should take such comments to the reddit thread about it. which i was unable to find so oh well
[21:52] <Fuchs> probably because it's ~6 years old
[21:52] <dax> and buried under years of [insert bad things dax brings up about reddit on a weekly basis here] posts
[21:53] <dax> anyway my brain now feels less like mush so i'ma go do laundry and upgrade a server at work (great idea!)
[21:53] <dax> ttyl
[21:53] <Fuchs> haev fun