/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/03/24/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== noy_ is now known as noy
=== king-afk is now known as cking
dsmythies1I'm here for some Ubuntu Doc Leadership meeting. Who is running it?14:32
knomedpm should be, but is not around yet14:32
dholbachI would be around for the meeting and I think davidcalle, mhall119  and popey also wanted to be there14:34
davidcalledsmythies1: knome: hi o/14:34
knomehello davidcalle14:34
dsmythies1Hi14:35
AlbertoSalviaNovHi everyone14:35
GunnarHjhello all14:35
dholbachhey hey14:35
AlbertoSalviaNovHi you14:35
davidcalleMeeting agenda -> http://pad.ubuntu.com/doc-team14:36
knomedavidcalle, you might want to do #startmeeting14:36
davidcalleThanks knome14:37
davidcalle#startmeeting14:37
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Mar 24 14:37:35 2016 UTC.  The chair is davidcalle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.14:37
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick14:37
popeyo/14:37
dholbachhey :)14:38
GunnarHjo/14:38
dholbachall right... shall we get started then - thanks a lot for filling out the agenda already14:38
knomebefore we go into the agenda, can we quickly go through the original request if anybody has questions about it14:38
dholbachsure14:39
knomeso that we are on the same page on what we should discuss today14:39
dsmythies1knome: I thought the original request was well written and stated the issues well.14:39
knome(i expect everybody has read the original mail, so fire away questions)14:39
AlbertoSalviaNovYeap14:39
AlbertoSalviaNovThe pad is already very clear14:40
GunnarHjI stated one objection to the original request in a comment on the pad.14:40
dholbachI'm a bit confused14:40
dholbachthe proposal seems to be mostly about getting somebody from the Canonical Community team to be assigned to lead the doc team, and then there's a number of specific issues relating to docs themselves which are on the agenda14:40
mhall119hey guys, sorry for being late14:41
* mhall119 reads the backlog real quick14:41
knomeGunnarHj, it's likely the inability to make decision has affected the community help wiki the most, but essentially we are again seeing discussion to moving to some other markup with the serverguide instead of seeing actual contributions14:41
knomeGunnarHj, so i wouldn't say it's only the community help wiki; of course, i'm not particularly involved with the desktop or server docs14:41
GunnarHjWell, let's drop that discussion. It won't lead us forward anyway.14:42
knomedholbach, that's the agenda dpm set up, and people built on14:42
dsmythies1dholbach: I understood this meeting to be mainly about getting help.14:42
dholbachok...14:43
dholbachit looks like we have different expectations and not everyone sees themselves represented by the agenda?14:43
dholbachor am I misunderstanding things?14:43
AlbertoSalviaNovNot my case14:43
knomedholbach, i totally agree that we should keep more on the meta level than talk about actual tasks to be worked on (though i understand that at that this point it would be essential to get the desktop guide for the LTS in at least some kind of good shape, and that might already require help from canonical)14:43
mhall119dholbach: so I don't think the request was specifically for someone in our team (canonical community team) to step up to lead the docs team, just for somebody within canonical to do so14:43
knomedholbach, talk about not being able to make decisions... :)14:43
dsmythies1I merely filled out dpm's thing about 16.04, but it doesn't matter.14:44
GunnarHjdholbach: The agenda is fine. Let's move on.14:44
mhall119pleia2: are you around to join this meeting?14:45
dholbachok, let's use the agenda then - feel free to add more items if your item is not covered14:45
knomemhall119, she's jetlagging and probably sleeping14:45
mhall119ah, right, ok14:45
dholbachwho wants to talk about the first item?14:45
knomei don't.14:45
mhall119dholbach: first item being "Pending tasks for 16.04"?14:46
knomecan you ping me when we've covered that?14:46
dsmythies1I said what I wanted to say in the etherpad itself.14:46
AlbertoSalviaNovYes knome14:47
davidcalleI have one question about the first item: names next to tasks. Eg dsmythies1 is the first taks "assigned" to you and you are looking for help, or is it a topic you want to raise?14:47
GunnarHjAs regards the status of the desktop guide (which initially triggered this meeting) it's under control. Doug added the pending items to the agenda.14:47
dsmythies1I was just saying who will do it. No help required.14:47
davidcalleOk14:48
dsmythies1The list might not be complete, I just wrote what I do (and one Gunnar thing).14:48
dholbachdsmythies1, are there any blockers regarding the desktop guide, apart from it being still quite a bit of work?14:49
knomecan the community team ask for some assistance with the documentation from people who work with those specific areas?14:49
GunnarHjdholbach: No blockers.14:50
knomeeg. so that dsmythies1 doesn't have to do all the work?14:50
mhall119knome: we can, it would help a great deal to get very specific needs14:50
davidcalleknome: that's what I was going to ask: do you need us to raise awareness about eg. the server guide?14:50
dsmythies1For my part of it, I lost months tryign to get a good 16.04 server (and desktop) going with which to work on. But no, not blockers now for desktop. Blocker for serverguide was inability to build PDF, but solved this morning.14:50
knomehere's how i think it should go:14:51
mhall119like "Adding network printer of ipp docs have outdated instructions from 10.04"14:51
knomecanonical employee works on application/area X14:51
mhall119rather than "printing docs need updating"14:51
dholbachknome, that part is understood14:51
knomecanonical employee makes sure the documentation for application/area X is in order14:51
mhall119knome: that's not generally how canonical employees work14:51
AlbertoSalviaNovIt is there something to talk about concerning the first item then?14:51
knomemhall119, can we make some generalisations and not focus on the minutiae?14:51
knomemhall119, because i don't think that's helpful at all14:51
dholbachknome, it's important to understand this14:51
mhall119knome: I think focusing on details is what's needed now14:52
knomeokay...14:52
dholbachwe basically have little idea how the team is run14:52
knomelet's make an example14:52
knomeserge works on LXD for canonical14:52
dholbachI am grateful for the explanation earlier14:52
mhall119knome: there isn't one canonical person responsible for application/area X14:52
knome--> serge works with the docs team to make sure the docs are up-to-date14:52
knomemhall119, i understand and know.14:52
knomeanother example:14:53
dholbachdsmythies1, did you reach out to the desktop team and their communications channels about this already?14:53
knomemhall119 makes a change in some package he doesn't usually work on14:53
knome--> mhall119 works with the documentation team to make sure the change is documented14:53
knomemhall119, does that make sense to you?14:53
knomecurrently, changes are landed and the documentation team mostly works on the documentation changes without canonical involvement14:53
dsmythies1dholbach: That would be more something that Gunnar would typically do.14:54
mhall119knome: in that scenario, does the developer update the docs, or tell someone from the docs team what changed?14:54
knomei'm not saying the canonical employees need to write the documentation, but some cooperation would be helpful; especially in the case that the documentation team can't handle all the tasks in time14:54
dholbachdsmythies1, do you know if any coordination or any reaching out has already happened? if not, we should note down we still need to do that14:54
knomemhall119, ^ see last comment for answer14:54
AlbertoSalviaNovI don't think that's the kind of involvement we need from Canonical. We just need someone to coordinate the effords.14:54
dholbachguys14:55
dsmythies1knome: Yes. We have very much a"you try and it and discover for yourselves" approach right now.14:55
dholbachwhat we're discussing here is coordination14:55
dholbachso please let's go through this one by one14:55
GunnarHjdholbach: What do you mean by "coordination or any reaching out"?14:55
* knome waits for dholbach to tell who can speak then14:56
dholbachGunnarHj, my first impulse was to talk to the desktop team or mail their mailing list and see if there's anyone who could help with the screenshots14:56
GunnarHjdholbach: I made a "call for help" request on the docs list, and we did the most necessary work already.14:56
dholbachknome, I was under the impression we used the agenda now14:56
dholbachGunnarHj, ok... so the screenshots for the desktop guide are done then?14:56
GunnarHjdholbach: Doug will do the screenshots. It's under control!14:56
knomedholbach, okay.14:56
dholbachok, great - sorry for the confusion then14:56
dsmythies1dholbach: I will do the screenshots. I have doen them for many cycles now.14:56
dholbachthanks a lot dsmythies114:57
dsmythies1hoeever...14:57
mhall119thanks dsmythies1, do you have a script or workflow that you use which others can follow?14:57
dsmythies1let me say something.14:57
dholbachsure14:57
dsmythies1the issue with the screenshots is that we have to do them so very very late in the cycle.14:57
dsmythies1mhall119: I do not use a script.14:58
dsmythies1the script has always been a waste of time, in my opinion.14:58
dholbachGunnarHj, I was just thinking of the desktop team list because I know there's lots of subscribers, some only listening in, and maybe somebody to help with screenshots (or related work) could maybe recruited there the next time :)14:58
dsmythies1I set up a minimum szed screen, for maximum left over resolution after re-sizing.14:59
GunnarHjdholbach: Possibly. But we are talking about 5 screenshots or so..14:59
dholbachoh ok14:59
dholbachin that case that's not necessary O:-)14:59
AlbertoSalviaNovI think that's a trivial problem right now14:59
dholbachok, cool14:59
dholbachGunnarHj, what are the desktop master files?15:00
GunnarHjdholbach: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trunk15:01
dsmythies1dholbach: I meant the master bzr branch in Launhpad15:01
mhall119and what needs to be updated on those?15:01
mhall119are there MPs or bug reports or something that lists what needs to be done?15:01
GunnarHjmhall119: The screenshots, translations, and we are done.15:02
dholbachcool - are the translations teams busy with the translations already?15:02
dsmythies1mhall119: No, this is now the regular release procedure. No MP or bug report.15:02
GunnarHjdholbach: Hope so. The tempate is in Rosetta.15:03
mhall119GunnarHj: is there a list of screenshots that need to be updated?15:03
dholbachmaybe somebody could ping the team another mail?15:03
dsmythies1mhall119: I have not decided yet which screen shots need to be re-done.15:03
knomedholbach, there are problems related to translation teams "working", but dpm told it was off-topic for this meeting; i've added the item to the agenda again though.15:03
GunnarHjmhall119, dholbach: Please!!! dsmythies and I have it under control. No extra action needed!15:04
dholbachok, let's move on to the next item then15:04
AlbertoSalviaNovWhat is the most important think to talk to? start there!15:04
dholbachGunnarHj, sorry, we're finding our way around here and wanted to make sure the points on the agenda are well understood15:04
AlbertoSalviaNovAbout sorry15:05
mhall119GunnarHj: we were asked to help the docs team, in order to do that we have to understand the state of things, which is why we're asking all these questions15:05
GunnarHjdholbach: No problem. But I just want you to know that we did some work after the CC meeting when we said that no work had been done yet.15:05
knomewhoever is adding items to the agenda, please add it as the last item.15:06
dholbachshall we talk about the server guide then? that seems to be next on the agenda?15:06
slangasekdoko bdmurray robru cyphermox: hi, looks like there's another meeting in progress here; #ubuntu-meeting-2?15:06
mhall119sorry slangasek15:07
dsmythies1serverguide is in trouble. it is falling behind reality. We only started doing anything with it after string freeze.15:08
knomedsmythies1, can i suggest something that you likely agree with?15:08
dsmythies1knome: Go ahead.15:09
mhall119dsmythies1: at the risk of sounding like a broken record, is where a list of what specific things need updating on the server guide?15:09
knomeinstead of talking about the work items we need to take, could we talk about how this situation doesn't repeat again with the next release, and what kind of cooperation from what teams would be needed15:09
AlbertoSalviaNovI agree with knome in that regard15:09
dsmythies1mhall119: wait a minute...15:10
knomesince that was the intention of the original mail we have written and sent with lyz15:10
dsmythies1knome: I am wrtting...15:10
knomeno hurry.15:10
dholbachknome, AlbertoSalviaNov: if we understand better what needs doing, we can note it down and figure out where we can bring people together to solve this15:11
knomedholbach, i'm sure actionable work items will bring up within the discussion15:11
knome*will be brought up15:11
AlbertoSalviaNovWe simply know that nobody is really in charge of the documentation, and that is all.15:12
dsmythies1If I could go back to knome's earlier point: Myself, I think person X works on some serever aspect. Person X MUST supply documentation. The "toss it over the fence" approach does not work. I mean I just sued systemd for the first time two months ago.15:12
AlbertoSalviaNovWe do not need further analysis.15:12
dholbachAlbertoSalviaNov, I think we do15:12
knomedsmythies1, instead of "MUST supply", i would say "must cooperate with the documentation team"15:12
dsmythies1mhall119: : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide15:12
knomedsmythies1, ultimately, that might mean supplying the documentation though15:13
dsmythies1knome: The difference between the serverguide and others is that we need Subject Matter Experts. Often the docs team has no lcue how to write the stuff.15:13
dholbachright15:13
dsmythies1no clue15:13
knomedsmythies1, ack, though i see the same issue with the desktop docs15:14
knomedsmythies1, or at least the part that changes are not made known, and no cooperation effort is offered15:14
dsmythies1mhall119: We also have put out requests for help on the serverteam e-mail list and on Ubuntu forums, a few times now.15:14
knomemaybe it's easier to figure out the desktop doc stuff15:14
mhall119dsmythies1: this is exactly what I was looking for, thanks! So the items in yellow and red are the ones that need help?15:15
dholbachso the way I would normally approach a situation where team A and B need to work more closely together would be to put together a list of items, discuss early on which items might be subject to change, and track the list during the cycle15:15
dholbachand I think we can help in bringing the docs team people together with folks who do that15:15
knomedholbach, one of the problems related to that is that some changes land very late in the cycle and are unannounced before it's too late15:15
AlbertoSalviaNovNot working closer is not the cause but the consequence, of not having a coordinator.15:15
dsmythies1mhall119: They are the higher prioities, yes. pmatulis's original e-mail list items by priroity.15:16
dholbachand if at some stage we find there's not enough time, we could do something like: dev from team A provides some pointers, or the point is discussed on team A's mailing list and we try to rope others in15:16
dholbachknome, the team managers should know around UOS or some weeks later which blocks they're going to land15:16
knomedholbach, weight on the word should.15:16
dholbachso that time should be good to discuss the plan15:16
dholbachknome, mh?15:16
knomedholbach, i'm sorry to have "an attitude", but that's the reality15:16
mhall119dsmythies1: it looks like most are in need of review, is that something you need the developers to review, or something the docs team reviews?15:16
dholbachknome, look - I can't change the reality of a fast moving project15:17
knomedholbach, also please note that a plan isn't enough for the docs team to start working15:17
knomedholbach, say, take the gnome software inclusion15:17
dholbachI think we need to start with a plan to bring people together15:17
dholbachknome, please15:17
knomedholbach, we still don't know if it's in its final stage, but it's past the documentation freee15:17
knomedholbach, please what?15:17
dholbachI know15:17
dholbachbut we can only plan for what we do know15:17
knomedholbach, i'm just pointing out the details.15:17
* dsmythies1 tries to keep up...15:17
dholbachand I think that a plan and some more discussion would help a lot already15:17
mhall119knome: does the docs team currently have regular meetings with the engineering teams?15:18
knomemhall119, none at all.15:18
dholbachknome, I've been part of this project for 11 years now - don't you think I know that some stuff lands very late? I'm unhappy about this too and I'm sorry for anyone who has to do the work catching up.15:18
dholbachbut I'm really trying to help here15:18
dholbachand I think that an early plan, discussed with the right people and some regular catchup will be an improvement15:19
mhall119knome: does the docs team have regularly scheduled meetings of their own, where we can invite the engineering teams?15:19
knomemhall119, not regularly scheduled, and when they happen, often not many people are able to attend15:19
mhall119ok, that's one of the first things that I think needs to happen15:19
AlbertoSalviaNovSo, again, that's not the problem15:19
knomedholbach, i don't disagree.15:19
GunnarHjmhall119: There were regular docs team meetings, but not currently. We miss a leader/coordinator.15:20
dholbachknome, good :)15:20
dsmythies1mhall119: For the serverguide, we need developers to review. I can give a couple of examples, which will also relate to knome's points.15:20
mhall119dsmythies1: ok, with your detailed list we can take that to the engineering teams and ask them to assign somebody to review each one, I can't imagine a single page review would take very long15:21
dsmythies1Example 1: Samba: A major component has been dropped, well after the start of 16.04. Cost me about a month trying to make my server work. Need developer to update that chapter.15:21
knomemhall119, it would help if there was a clear understanding on what should be on the agenda, and then stick to it too.15:22
mhall119GunnarHj: how frequent were those meetings in the past15:22
mhall119?15:22
mhall119weekly, bi-weekly, monthly?15:22
knomemhall119, understanding and agreement, that is.15:22
GunnarHjmhall119: monthly15:22
mhall119knome: for this meeting, or for regular docs team meetings?15:22
knomemhall119, both :)15:22
dsmythies1Example 2: from 14.04: The change for wen server file to default was changed from /var/www/ to /var/www/html so bery late in the cycle that we had already reviewed that chapter. Then it was broken.15:23
AlbertoSalviaNovI personally think meetings are not needed: you just bring topics inmediately as needed, as you write documentation inmediately when a change takes place.15:23
knomeAlbertoSalviaNov, i disagree.15:23
mhall119for the regular meetings, I think doing something like the CC does and pre-schedule checkins with the various engineering teams so you can talk to them about what they're landing and what docs will need to change because of it15:23
dholbachMaybe we could try something like this next cycle: review the ToC early on in the cycle, figure out which will likely need updating, have regular catchups (be it by mail, IRC or whatever) with the relevant managers of the engineering teams to track progress and define an escalation process. This could also be brought up on the desktop or server lists to get others involved and more help?15:23
GunnarHjmhall119: That's a good idea.15:24
knomedholbach, would it be the documenation teams responsibility and task to check if updates are going to land?15:24
dholbachknome, it should be in the calendar of the relevant team manager and somebody who understands which blocks have already landed in the docs15:24
knomeack.15:25
mhall119knome: it would be the responsibility of both docs team and engineering teams to coordinate code landings with doc updates15:25
dholbachand if it's just an email every other week - it can be lightweight15:25
dholbachit wouldn't necessary have to be a full-blown hangout which takes 2 hours or something15:25
GunnarHjdholbach, mhall119: But we are not talking about rather obvious things that should be done. The problem is that we don't have persons to assume the leadership roles needed.15:26
knomethat too.15:27
GunnarHjnot->now15:27
dholbachGunnarHj, can you maybe name a few responsibilities that would fit into these roles?15:27
AlbertoSalviaNovIt is simpler than having roles15:27
mhall119GunnarHj: understood, but finding out what that leader will needs to do will help us find him or her15:27
GunnarHjdholbach: We just mentioned coordination with engineering.15:27
* dholbach nods15:28
GunnarHjmhall119: Ack.15:28
mhall119GunnarHj: something that we've been learning with the CC and LC is that leaders are more likely to come around if the responsibilities of leadership are clearly defined15:28
knomeand as the original mail implies, coordination of the documentation team in general15:28
knomethe mail even lists three actionable items; let me paste them here15:29
dholbachthanks15:29
knome– Work as a mediator with the members to resolve disagreements, be15:29
knomeable to reach a consensus and get along with the work15:29
knome– Work with other Canonical employees, encouraging them to take part15:29
knomemore in writing documentation, especially with the components they are15:29
knomeworking with themself15:29
knome– Work with the Canonical IS team to resolve technical difficulties15:29
popeyI think this regular meeting could do with some help from some (one or more) of us in the community team to chase down people internally15:29
knomethe community help wiki is experiencing15:29
dholbachpopey++15:29
mhall119in the short term, the leader will also need to scedule the regular docs team meetings at a time and frequency that will get the most attendance15:30
knomeyes15:31
mhall119and probably will need to run the meetings, at least to start15:31
knomealternatively, just schedule often enough that everybody in the team gets to participate once in a while15:31
knomebecause obviously there isn't a time that works for everybody, ever15:32
popeya common problem15:32
mhall119regularity still works out better than ad-hoc, but the leader can decide how best to balance those needs15:32
popeyTypically helped by using meeting bot and sending out a nice update mail to the team, so people who couldn't be there can contribute via email.15:32
mhall119+115:33
AlbertoSalviaNovMeetings take people out of work, where you could just email people when needed, and they can read and answer when it better suits them.15:33
dholbachAlbertoSalviaNov, I find this quite productive now15:33
knomeAlbertoSalviaNov, i still disagree.15:33
mhall119meetings also let you get through more things faster, this last hour of discussion would have taken a week over email15:33
dholbachAlbertoSalviaNov, if you'd rather leave, I think that's fine15:33
dholbachit's also an important opportunity to bring people together from separate teams15:34
dholbachof course they shouldn't be longer or more often than necessary15:34
knomei agree that meetings *can* be distracting and useless in some cases, but i wouldn't call all meetings useless and try to avoid them like a plague15:35
GunnarHjMeetings serve the purpose to remind people about things which need to be done.15:35
knomeand as dholbach said, it's agreat opportunity to meet people you wouldn't meet otherwise.15:35
knomelike that AlbertoSalviaNov guy.15:36
popey+10015:36
dholbachWhat do you feel are the most urgent items for 16.04, which feel like they need to be rescued?15:36
knomedholbach, let me throw the ball back to you:15:36
knomewhat does canonical feel is the most important area in their official desktop/server documentation?15:37
knomeor is it not important to them15:37
dholbachknome, I'm probably not the best person to answer this15:37
dholbachbut it's a question we could ask the desktop and server folks15:37
knomedholbach, ack. this is one of the questions the coordinator for the doc team could help answer15:37
knomeand keep in mind, and coordinate work based on that15:37
dholbachlet's note it down15:37
knomenobody in the doc team has that insight.15:38
GunnarHjdholbach: Let's not talking more about the 16.04 desktop guide. We will be shipping a decent (I hope) set of docs.15:38
GunnarHjdholbach: No rescue plan needed, in other words.15:39
dholbachGunnarHj, ok... and for the server guide is there anything urgent we, right now, could help out with by raising awareness or doing anything else?15:39
mhall119GunnarHj: so nothing is in critical need of work from Canonical for 16.04 docs?15:40
mhall119basically, is there bleeding that we need to stop before we work on fixing the soure of the problem?15:40
dsmythies1For serverguide, yes: The entire thing needs to be reviewed for accuracy.15:40
knomeGunnarHj, would you say that the desktop documentation for 16.04 has got the "minimal" effort to kept up-to-date instead of actually being able to improve it this cycle?15:40
GunnarHjmhall119: Not for desktop. Can't speak for server.15:40
dsmythies1desktop got about 1.50th of the attention it could have used.15:41
GunnarHjknome: Yes.15:41
dsmythies11/50th15:41
mhall119it sounds like server needs to have somebody review that list of pages15:41
knomeGunnarHj, okay15:41
AlbertoSalviaNovI think there is nothing else I can contribute to this conversation, that I think we need a coordinator and everything else will come on its own.15:41
dsmythies1there is also talk of chnaging to some new markdown laguage.15:41
AlbertoSalviaNovSo bye bye15:41
mhall119dsmythies1: that's something that can be worked out once a leader is identified and regular meetings start again15:43
mhall119I don't think we're prepared to make any decisions on that today15:43
dholbachdsmythies1, who's discussing this right now?15:43
dsmythies1e-mail thread on serverteam and docteam lists.15:44
dholbachdid you get the feeling that the people who are discussing this would also put some work into this? :)15:44
GunnarHj+1'15:45
dsmythies1yes, there were, I think, 2 or 3 that said they would help with a markdown type change.15:45
dholbachbut that sounds more like a 16.10 discussion, right?15:46
dholbachdsmythies1, is there a list of chapters which need to be reviewed with more priority than others?15:46
dsmythies1That is my thought yes, but we also had the same talk at 14.04 and then is fizzled. BY the way we only publish LTS serverguides15:47
mhall119dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide#Contribution_table has the list along with priorities for the server guide15:47
dsmythies1dholbach: Yes, The link I gave earlier. I will find and repeat15:47
dsmythies1... oh never mind15:47
dholbachthanks I must have missed it15:47
dsmythies1mhall119: BY the way for desktop: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19RdaR3G_8TQ49f-Nb0XJAwhnlweMWJqsTr4kciSV5S0/edit#gid=58403709515:48
mhall119dsmythies1: is there a priority list for those?15:49
dsmythies1No. we did a bit of priority by e-mail.15:49
mhall119dsmythies1: can you find the link to that thread in the archive and add it to our etherpad?15:50
dsmythies1I'll try...15:50
dholbachthanks15:50
mhall119thanks dsmythies115:51
hannieI want you to have a look at the workflow at The Ubuntu Manual: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Nl3Yue69IM2EflSdyeHgADET49RZRmgfDVoxHutQIk/edit#gid=209484094115:52
mhall119dholbach: for the immediate future, how about you and I contact the desktop and server teams with these list of review needs for 16.0415:52
hannieIt does work there, but the UM is more structured than ubuntu docs15:52
GunnarHjAs regards the desktop, there were a mix of list messages and private mails. Not easy to provide a link to the latter.15:52
dholbachmhall119, yes, let's chat about this later on15:53
dholbachhannie, do you want to explain a bit how the structure differs?15:54
hannieOk. UM is divided in chapters and sections. Every contributor takes care of a certain chapter or section.15:54
dholbachAnd the contributors are the ones who wrote them initially?15:55
hannieUbuntu docs is more like a set of loose pages with less structure in it15:55
hannieNo, each version we have different contributors15:55
dholbachand where did you recruit them?15:56
hannieLike with the docs, we also struggle to get enough people to help, so we decided to publish only LTS versions15:56
hannieRecruting is done her:e: http://ubuntu-manual.org/15:56
knomei don't think ubuntu can only ship LTS docs15:57
knomedocumentation needs to go with all releases15:57
dsmythies1GunnarHj: Good point.15:57
hannieknome, I agree15:57
dholbachthat looks nice - good work putting this all together15:57
hannieBut I waas talking about the workflow15:58
knomeokay.15:58
mhall119GunnarHj: can one of you but together a list of priorities? Or at least a "top X" pages we can have the desktop team focus on?15:58
dsmythies1Desktop: The problem, the way I see it, is that I don't know if the page needs work or not until I try it. So far, evertying I have looked at has uncovered issues.15:59
hanniedsmythies1, that is why I was thinking of assigning parts of the docs to team members who can read and change "their" part of the documents16:01
GunnarHjmhall119: Hmm.. DocumentationStringFreeze was a week ago. Selecting top priority pages is quite some work. IMO we need to let 16.04 go as regards the desktop.16:01
mhall119dsmythies1: do you know which pages are going to be most commonly referred to by users?16:01
dsmythies1mhall119: No.16:01
knomemhall119, maybe the canonical IS can set something up for that16:02
knomemhall119, though they promised to do the same for the community help wiki ages ago, not seeing anything for that yet either :)16:02
knome(not blaming anybody, just pointing out)16:02
mhall119knome: you mean getting page view stats?16:02
knomeyes16:02
mhall119ack, we can look into that16:03
knomeisn't that the same as most referenced?16:03
dsmythies1GunnarHj:   right, we hit string freeze so we stopped. I went to serverguide, and to build issues.16:03
mhall119knome: probably16:03
knomemhall119, as you do that, here's the ticket from december 2013 for the community help wiki: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=2353416:03
mhall119knome: thanks, are there other outstanding RTs for the docs team that we need to follow up on?16:04
dsmythies1yes, but page veiw stats doesn't tell us help usage within a computer, which might be quite different.16:04
knomedsmythies1, true, though might give some insight.16:04
mhall119dsmythies1: true, but I don't think there's any way we can get that info16:04
dsmythies1agreed16:05
knomemhall119, not any i'm following ATM16:05
mhall119alright, we've gotten quite a bit of information from you guys, which is going to take some time to absorb, and dholbach and I both have action items, can we go ahead and schedule a follow-up meeting with you for next week, or in 2 weeks, to pick it up again?16:06
hanniefine16:07
dsmythies1yes, fine.16:07
mhall119same day and time, if that works well enough for everybody?16:07
dsmythies1O.K. for me.16:07
GunnarHjfine with me too16:07
knomecan't promise anything, i would set a doodle poll again16:07
hannieSee you all next time16:08
mhall119dholbach: are you good for next week?16:08
dholbachyes, I think that should work16:08
dholbachthanks a lot for your input everyone16:08
dholbachand thanks for the patience16:08
mhall119great, thanks everybody for your time and all of the insights16:09
davidcalle#info Notes and actions: http://pad.ubuntu.com/doc-team16:09
dsmythies1Thanks16:09
davidcalleThanks all16:09
GunnarHjThanks!16:09
davidcalle#endmeeting16:09
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Mar 24 16:09:37 2016 UTC.16:09
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-03-24-14.37.moin.txt16:09
popey\o/16:10
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=== jgrimm is now known as jgrimm-afk
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