[14:32] <dsmythies1> I'm here for some Ubuntu Doc Leadership meeting. Who is running it?
[14:32] <knome> dpm should be, but is not around yet
[14:34] <dholbach> I would be around for the meeting and I think davidcalle, mhall119  and popey also wanted to be there
[14:34] <davidcalle> dsmythies1: knome: hi o/
[14:34] <knome> hello davidcalle
[14:35] <dsmythies1> Hi
[14:35] <AlbertoSalviaNov> Hi everyone
[14:35] <GunnarHj> hello all
[14:35] <dholbach> hey hey
[14:35] <AlbertoSalviaNov> Hi you
[14:36] <davidcalle> Meeting agenda -> http://pad.ubuntu.com/doc-team
[14:36] <knome> davidcalle, you might want to do #startmeeting
[14:37] <davidcalle> Thanks knome
[14:37] <davidcalle> #startmeeting
[14:37] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Mar 24 14:37:35 2016 UTC.  The chair is davidcalle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:37] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[14:37] <popey> o/
[14:38] <dholbach> hey :)
[14:38] <GunnarHj> o/
[14:38] <dholbach> all right... shall we get started then - thanks a lot for filling out the agenda already
[14:38] <knome> before we go into the agenda, can we quickly go through the original request if anybody has questions about it
[14:39] <dholbach> sure
[14:39] <knome> so that we are on the same page on what we should discuss today
[14:39] <dsmythies1> knome: I thought the original request was well written and stated the issues well.
[14:39] <knome> (i expect everybody has read the original mail, so fire away questions)
[14:39] <AlbertoSalviaNov> Yeap
[14:40] <AlbertoSalviaNov> The pad is already very clear
[14:40] <GunnarHj> I stated one objection to the original request in a comment on the pad.
[14:40] <dholbach> I'm a bit confused
[14:40] <dholbach> the proposal seems to be mostly about getting somebody from the Canonical Community team to be assigned to lead the doc team, and then there's a number of specific issues relating to docs themselves which are on the agenda
[14:41] <mhall119> hey guys, sorry for being late
[14:41]  * mhall119 reads the backlog real quick
[14:41] <knome> GunnarHj, it's likely the inability to make decision has affected the community help wiki the most, but essentially we are again seeing discussion to moving to some other markup with the serverguide instead of seeing actual contributions
[14:41] <knome> GunnarHj, so i wouldn't say it's only the community help wiki; of course, i'm not particularly involved with the desktop or server docs
[14:42] <GunnarHj> Well, let's drop that discussion. It won't lead us forward anyway.
[14:42] <knome> dholbach, that's the agenda dpm set up, and people built on
[14:42] <dsmythies1> dholbach: I understood this meeting to be mainly about getting help.
[14:43] <dholbach> ok...
[14:43] <dholbach> it looks like we have different expectations and not everyone sees themselves represented by the agenda?
[14:43] <dholbach> or am I misunderstanding things?
[14:43] <AlbertoSalviaNov> Not my case
[14:43] <knome> dholbach, i totally agree that we should keep more on the meta level than talk about actual tasks to be worked on (though i understand that at that this point it would be essential to get the desktop guide for the LTS in at least some kind of good shape, and that might already require help from canonical)
[14:43] <mhall119> dholbach: so I don't think the request was specifically for someone in our team (canonical community team) to step up to lead the docs team, just for somebody within canonical to do so
[14:43] <knome> dholbach, talk about not being able to make decisions... :)
[14:44] <dsmythies1> I merely filled out dpm's thing about 16.04, but it doesn't matter.
[14:44] <GunnarHj> dholbach: The agenda is fine. Let's move on.
[14:45] <mhall119> pleia2: are you around to join this meeting?
[14:45] <dholbach> ok, let's use the agenda then - feel free to add more items if your item is not covered
[14:45] <knome> mhall119, she's jetlagging and probably sleeping
[14:45] <mhall119> ah, right, ok
[14:45] <dholbach> who wants to talk about the first item?
[14:45] <knome> i don't.
[14:46] <mhall119> dholbach: first item being "Pending tasks for 16.04"?
[14:46] <knome> can you ping me when we've covered that?
[14:46] <dsmythies1> I said what I wanted to say in the etherpad itself.
[14:47] <AlbertoSalviaNov> Yes knome
[14:47] <davidcalle> I have one question about the first item: names next to tasks. Eg dsmythies1 is the first taks "assigned" to you and you are looking for help, or is it a topic you want to raise?
[14:47] <GunnarHj> As regards the status of the desktop guide (which initially triggered this meeting) it's under control. Doug added the pending items to the agenda.
[14:47] <dsmythies1> I was just saying who will do it. No help required.
[14:48] <davidcalle> Ok
[14:48] <dsmythies1> The list might not be complete, I just wrote what I do (and one Gunnar thing).
[14:49] <dholbach> dsmythies1, are there any blockers regarding the desktop guide, apart from it being still quite a bit of work?
[14:49] <knome> can the community team ask for some assistance with the documentation from people who work with those specific areas?
[14:50] <GunnarHj> dholbach: No blockers.
[14:50] <knome> eg. so that dsmythies1 doesn't have to do all the work?
[14:50] <mhall119> knome: we can, it would help a great deal to get very specific needs
[14:50] <davidcalle> knome: that's what I was going to ask: do you need us to raise awareness about eg. the server guide?
[14:50] <dsmythies1> For my part of it, I lost months tryign to get a good 16.04 server (and desktop) going with which to work on. But no, not blockers now for desktop. Blocker for serverguide was inability to build PDF, but solved this morning.
[14:51] <knome> here's how i think it should go:
[14:51] <mhall119> like "Adding network printer of ipp docs have outdated instructions from 10.04"
[14:51] <knome> canonical employee works on application/area X
[14:51] <mhall119> rather than "printing docs need updating"
[14:51] <dholbach> knome, that part is understood
[14:51] <knome> canonical employee makes sure the documentation for application/area X is in order
[14:51] <mhall119> knome: that's not generally how canonical employees work
[14:51] <AlbertoSalviaNov> It is there something to talk about concerning the first item then?
[14:51] <knome> mhall119, can we make some generalisations and not focus on the minutiae?
[14:51] <knome> mhall119, because i don't think that's helpful at all
[14:51] <dholbach> knome, it's important to understand this
[14:52] <mhall119> knome: I think focusing on details is what's needed now
[14:52] <knome> okay...
[14:52] <dholbach> we basically have little idea how the team is run
[14:52] <knome> let's make an example
[14:52] <knome> serge works on LXD for canonical
[14:52] <dholbach> I am grateful for the explanation earlier
[14:52] <mhall119> knome: there isn't one canonical person responsible for application/area X
[14:52] <knome> --> serge works with the docs team to make sure the docs are up-to-date
[14:52] <knome> mhall119, i understand and know.
[14:53] <knome> another example:
[14:53] <dholbach> dsmythies1, did you reach out to the desktop team and their communications channels about this already?
[14:53] <knome> mhall119 makes a change in some package he doesn't usually work on
[14:53] <knome> --> mhall119 works with the documentation team to make sure the change is documented
[14:53] <knome> mhall119, does that make sense to you?
[14:53] <knome> currently, changes are landed and the documentation team mostly works on the documentation changes without canonical involvement
[14:54] <dsmythies1> dholbach: That would be more something that Gunnar would typically do.
[14:54] <mhall119> knome: in that scenario, does the developer update the docs, or tell someone from the docs team what changed?
[14:54] <knome> i'm not saying the canonical employees need to write the documentation, but some cooperation would be helpful; especially in the case that the documentation team can't handle all the tasks in time
[14:54] <dholbach> dsmythies1, do you know if any coordination or any reaching out has already happened? if not, we should note down we still need to do that
[14:54] <knome> mhall119, ^ see last comment for answer
[14:54] <AlbertoSalviaNov> I don't think that's the kind of involvement we need from Canonical. We just need someone to coordinate the effords.
[14:55] <dholbach> guys
[14:55] <dsmythies1> knome: Yes. We have very much a"you try and it and discover for yourselves" approach right now.
[14:55] <dholbach> what we're discussing here is coordination
[14:55] <dholbach> so please let's go through this one by one
[14:55] <GunnarHj> dholbach: What do you mean by "coordination or any reaching out"?
[14:56]  * knome waits for dholbach to tell who can speak then
[14:56] <dholbach> GunnarHj, my first impulse was to talk to the desktop team or mail their mailing list and see if there's anyone who could help with the screenshots
[14:56] <GunnarHj> dholbach: I made a "call for help" request on the docs list, and we did the most necessary work already.
[14:56] <dholbach> knome, I was under the impression we used the agenda now
[14:56] <dholbach> GunnarHj, ok... so the screenshots for the desktop guide are done then?
[14:56] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Doug will do the screenshots. It's under control!
[14:56] <knome> dholbach, okay.
[14:56] <dholbach> ok, great - sorry for the confusion then
[14:56] <dsmythies1> dholbach: I will do the screenshots. I have doen them for many cycles now.
[14:57] <dholbach> thanks a lot dsmythies1
[14:57] <dsmythies1> hoeever...
[14:57] <mhall119> thanks dsmythies1, do you have a script or workflow that you use which others can follow?
[14:57] <dsmythies1> let me say something.
[14:57] <dholbach> sure
[14:57] <dsmythies1> the issue with the screenshots is that we have to do them so very very late in the cycle.
[14:58] <dsmythies1> mhall119: I do not use a script.
[14:58] <dsmythies1> the script has always been a waste of time, in my opinion.
[14:58] <dholbach> GunnarHj, I was just thinking of the desktop team list because I know there's lots of subscribers, some only listening in, and maybe somebody to help with screenshots (or related work) could maybe recruited there the next time :)
[14:59] <dsmythies1> I set up a minimum szed screen, for maximum left over resolution after re-sizing.
[14:59] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Possibly. But we are talking about 5 screenshots or so..
[14:59] <dholbach> oh ok
[14:59] <dholbach> in that case that's not necessary O:-)
[14:59] <AlbertoSalviaNov> I think that's a trivial problem right now
[14:59] <dholbach> ok, cool
[15:00] <dholbach> GunnarHj, what are the desktop master files?
[15:01] <GunnarHj> dholbach: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trunk
[15:01] <dsmythies1> dholbach: I meant the master bzr branch in Launhpad
[15:01] <mhall119> and what needs to be updated on those?
[15:01] <mhall119> are there MPs or bug reports or something that lists what needs to be done?
[15:02] <GunnarHj> mhall119: The screenshots, translations, and we are done.
[15:02] <dholbach> cool - are the translations teams busy with the translations already?
[15:02] <dsmythies1> mhall119: No, this is now the regular release procedure. No MP or bug report.
[15:03] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Hope so. The tempate is in Rosetta.
[15:03] <mhall119> GunnarHj: is there a list of screenshots that need to be updated?
[15:03] <dholbach> maybe somebody could ping the team another mail?
[15:03] <dsmythies1> mhall119: I have not decided yet which screen shots need to be re-done.
[15:03] <knome> dholbach, there are problems related to translation teams "working", but dpm told it was off-topic for this meeting; i've added the item to the agenda again though.
[15:04] <GunnarHj> mhall119, dholbach: Please!!! dsmythies and I have it under control. No extra action needed!
[15:04] <dholbach> ok, let's move on to the next item then
[15:04] <AlbertoSalviaNov> What is the most important think to talk to? start there!
[15:04] <dholbach> GunnarHj, sorry, we're finding our way around here and wanted to make sure the points on the agenda are well understood
[15:05] <AlbertoSalviaNov> About sorry
[15:05] <mhall119> GunnarHj: we were asked to help the docs team, in order to do that we have to understand the state of things, which is why we're asking all these questions
[15:05] <GunnarHj> dholbach: No problem. But I just want you to know that we did some work after the CC meeting when we said that no work had been done yet.
[15:06] <knome> whoever is adding items to the agenda, please add it as the last item.
[15:06] <dholbach> shall we talk about the server guide then? that seems to be next on the agenda?
[15:06] <slangasek> doko bdmurray robru cyphermox: hi, looks like there's another meeting in progress here; #ubuntu-meeting-2?
[15:07] <mhall119> sorry slangasek
[15:08] <dsmythies1> serverguide is in trouble. it is falling behind reality. We only started doing anything with it after string freeze.
[15:08] <knome> dsmythies1, can i suggest something that you likely agree with?
[15:09] <dsmythies1> knome: Go ahead.
[15:09] <mhall119> dsmythies1: at the risk of sounding like a broken record, is where a list of what specific things need updating on the server guide?
[15:09] <knome> instead of talking about the work items we need to take, could we talk about how this situation doesn't repeat again with the next release, and what kind of cooperation from what teams would be needed
[15:09] <AlbertoSalviaNov> I agree with knome in that regard
[15:10] <dsmythies1> mhall119: wait a minute...
[15:10] <knome> since that was the intention of the original mail we have written and sent with lyz
[15:10] <dsmythies1> knome: I am wrtting...
[15:10] <knome> no hurry.
[15:11] <dholbach> knome, AlbertoSalviaNov: if we understand better what needs doing, we can note it down and figure out where we can bring people together to solve this
[15:11] <knome> dholbach, i'm sure actionable work items will bring up within the discussion
[15:11] <knome> *will be brought up
[15:12] <AlbertoSalviaNov> We simply know that nobody is really in charge of the documentation, and that is all.
[15:12] <dsmythies1> If I could go back to knome's earlier point: Myself, I think person X works on some serever aspect. Person X MUST supply documentation. The "toss it over the fence" approach does not work. I mean I just sued systemd for the first time two months ago.
[15:12] <AlbertoSalviaNov> We do not need further analysis.
[15:12] <dholbach> AlbertoSalviaNov, I think we do
[15:12] <knome> dsmythies1, instead of "MUST supply", i would say "must cooperate with the documentation team"
[15:12] <dsmythies1> mhall119: : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
[15:13] <knome> dsmythies1, ultimately, that might mean supplying the documentation though
[15:13] <dsmythies1> knome: The difference between the serverguide and others is that we need Subject Matter Experts. Often the docs team has no lcue how to write the stuff.
[15:13] <dholbach> right
[15:13] <dsmythies1> no clue
[15:14] <knome> dsmythies1, ack, though i see the same issue with the desktop docs
[15:14] <knome> dsmythies1, or at least the part that changes are not made known, and no cooperation effort is offered
[15:14] <dsmythies1> mhall119: We also have put out requests for help on the serverteam e-mail list and on Ubuntu forums, a few times now.
[15:14] <knome> maybe it's easier to figure out the desktop doc stuff
[15:15] <mhall119> dsmythies1: this is exactly what I was looking for, thanks! So the items in yellow and red are the ones that need help?
[15:15] <dholbach> so the way I would normally approach a situation where team A and B need to work more closely together would be to put together a list of items, discuss early on which items might be subject to change, and track the list during the cycle
[15:15] <dholbach> and I think we can help in bringing the docs team people together with folks who do that
[15:15] <knome> dholbach, one of the problems related to that is that some changes land very late in the cycle and are unannounced before it's too late
[15:15] <AlbertoSalviaNov> Not working closer is not the cause but the consequence, of not having a coordinator.
[15:16] <dsmythies1> mhall119: They are the higher prioities, yes. pmatulis's original e-mail list items by priroity.
[15:16] <dholbach> and if at some stage we find there's not enough time, we could do something like: dev from team A provides some pointers, or the point is discussed on team A's mailing list and we try to rope others in
[15:16] <dholbach> knome, the team managers should know around UOS or some weeks later which blocks they're going to land
[15:16] <knome> dholbach, weight on the word should.
[15:16] <dholbach> so that time should be good to discuss the plan
[15:16] <dholbach> knome, mh?
[15:16] <knome> dholbach, i'm sorry to have "an attitude", but that's the reality
[15:16] <mhall119> dsmythies1: it looks like most are in need of review, is that something you need the developers to review, or something the docs team reviews?
[15:17] <dholbach> knome, look - I can't change the reality of a fast moving project
[15:17] <knome> dholbach, also please note that a plan isn't enough for the docs team to start working
[15:17] <knome> dholbach, say, take the gnome software inclusion
[15:17] <dholbach> I think we need to start with a plan to bring people together
[15:17] <dholbach> knome, please
[15:17] <knome> dholbach, we still don't know if it's in its final stage, but it's past the documentation freee
[15:17] <knome> dholbach, please what?
[15:17] <dholbach> I know
[15:17] <dholbach> but we can only plan for what we do know
[15:17] <knome> dholbach, i'm just pointing out the details.
[15:17]  * dsmythies1 tries to keep up...
[15:17] <dholbach> and I think that a plan and some more discussion would help a lot already
[15:18] <mhall119> knome: does the docs team currently have regular meetings with the engineering teams?
[15:18] <knome> mhall119, none at all.
[15:18] <dholbach> knome, I've been part of this project for 11 years now - don't you think I know that some stuff lands very late? I'm unhappy about this too and I'm sorry for anyone who has to do the work catching up.
[15:18] <dholbach> but I'm really trying to help here
[15:19] <dholbach> and I think that an early plan, discussed with the right people and some regular catchup will be an improvement
[15:19] <mhall119> knome: does the docs team have regularly scheduled meetings of their own, where we can invite the engineering teams?
[15:19] <knome> mhall119, not regularly scheduled, and when they happen, often not many people are able to attend
[15:19] <mhall119> ok, that's one of the first things that I think needs to happen
[15:19] <AlbertoSalviaNov> So, again, that's not the problem
[15:19] <knome> dholbach, i don't disagree.
[15:20] <GunnarHj> mhall119: There were regular docs team meetings, but not currently. We miss a leader/coordinator.
[15:20] <dholbach> knome, good :)
[15:20] <dsmythies1> mhall119: For the serverguide, we need developers to review. I can give a couple of examples, which will also relate to knome's points.
[15:21] <mhall119> dsmythies1: ok, with your detailed list we can take that to the engineering teams and ask them to assign somebody to review each one, I can't imagine a single page review would take very long
[15:21] <dsmythies1> Example 1: Samba: A major component has been dropped, well after the start of 16.04. Cost me about a month trying to make my server work. Need developer to update that chapter.
[15:22] <knome> mhall119, it would help if there was a clear understanding on what should be on the agenda, and then stick to it too.
[15:22] <mhall119> GunnarHj: how frequent were those meetings in the past
[15:22] <mhall119> ?
[15:22] <mhall119> weekly, bi-weekly, monthly?
[15:22] <knome> mhall119, understanding and agreement, that is.
[15:22] <GunnarHj> mhall119: monthly
[15:22] <mhall119> knome: for this meeting, or for regular docs team meetings?
[15:22] <knome> mhall119, both :)
[15:23] <dsmythies1> Example 2: from 14.04: The change for wen server file to default was changed from /var/www/ to /var/www/html so bery late in the cycle that we had already reviewed that chapter. Then it was broken.
[15:23] <AlbertoSalviaNov> I personally think meetings are not needed: you just bring topics inmediately as needed, as you write documentation inmediately when a change takes place.
[15:23] <knome> AlbertoSalviaNov, i disagree.
[15:23] <mhall119> for the regular meetings, I think doing something like the CC does and pre-schedule checkins with the various engineering teams so you can talk to them about what they're landing and what docs will need to change because of it
[15:23] <dholbach> Maybe we could try something like this next cycle: review the ToC early on in the cycle, figure out which will likely need updating, have regular catchups (be it by mail, IRC or whatever) with the relevant managers of the engineering teams to track progress and define an escalation process. This could also be brought up on the desktop or server lists to get others involved and more help?
[15:24] <GunnarHj> mhall119: That's a good idea.
[15:24] <knome> dholbach, would it be the documenation teams responsibility and task to check if updates are going to land?
[15:24] <dholbach> knome, it should be in the calendar of the relevant team manager and somebody who understands which blocks have already landed in the docs
[15:25] <knome> ack.
[15:25] <mhall119> knome: it would be the responsibility of both docs team and engineering teams to coordinate code landings with doc updates
[15:25] <dholbach> and if it's just an email every other week - it can be lightweight
[15:25] <dholbach> it wouldn't necessary have to be a full-blown hangout which takes 2 hours or something
[15:26] <GunnarHj> dholbach, mhall119: But we are not talking about rather obvious things that should be done. The problem is that we don't have persons to assume the leadership roles needed.
[15:27] <knome> that too.
[15:27] <GunnarHj> not->now
[15:27] <dholbach> GunnarHj, can you maybe name a few responsibilities that would fit into these roles?
[15:27] <AlbertoSalviaNov> It is simpler than having roles
[15:27] <mhall119> GunnarHj: understood, but finding out what that leader will needs to do will help us find him or her
[15:27] <GunnarHj> dholbach: We just mentioned coordination with engineering.
[15:28]  * dholbach nods
[15:28] <GunnarHj> mhall119: Ack.
[15:28] <mhall119> GunnarHj: something that we've been learning with the CC and LC is that leaders are more likely to come around if the responsibilities of leadership are clearly defined
[15:28] <knome> and as the original mail implies, coordination of the documentation team in general
[15:29] <knome> the mail even lists three actionable items; let me paste them here
[15:29] <dholbach> thanks
[15:29] <knome> – Work as a mediator with the members to resolve disagreements, be
[15:29] <knome> able to reach a consensus and get along with the work
[15:29] <knome> – Work with other Canonical employees, encouraging them to take part
[15:29] <knome> more in writing documentation, especially with the components they are
[15:29] <knome> working with themself
[15:29] <knome> – Work with the Canonical IS team to resolve technical difficulties
[15:29] <popey> I think this regular meeting could do with some help from some (one or more) of us in the community team to chase down people internally
[15:29] <knome> the community help wiki is experiencing
[15:29] <dholbach> popey++
[15:30] <mhall119> in the short term, the leader will also need to scedule the regular docs team meetings at a time and frequency that will get the most attendance
[15:31] <knome> yes
[15:31] <mhall119> and probably will need to run the meetings, at least to start
[15:31] <knome> alternatively, just schedule often enough that everybody in the team gets to participate once in a while
[15:32] <knome> because obviously there isn't a time that works for everybody, ever
[15:32] <popey> a common problem
[15:32] <mhall119> regularity still works out better than ad-hoc, but the leader can decide how best to balance those needs
[15:32] <popey> Typically helped by using meeting bot and sending out a nice update mail to the team, so people who couldn't be there can contribute via email.
[15:33] <mhall119> +1
[15:33] <AlbertoSalviaNov> Meetings take people out of work, where you could just email people when needed, and they can read and answer when it better suits them.
[15:33] <dholbach> AlbertoSalviaNov, I find this quite productive now
[15:33] <knome> AlbertoSalviaNov, i still disagree.
[15:33] <mhall119> meetings also let you get through more things faster, this last hour of discussion would have taken a week over email
[15:33] <dholbach> AlbertoSalviaNov, if you'd rather leave, I think that's fine
[15:34] <dholbach> it's also an important opportunity to bring people together from separate teams
[15:34] <dholbach> of course they shouldn't be longer or more often than necessary
[15:35] <knome> i agree that meetings *can* be distracting and useless in some cases, but i wouldn't call all meetings useless and try to avoid them like a plague
[15:35] <GunnarHj> Meetings serve the purpose to remind people about things which need to be done.
[15:35] <knome> and as dholbach said, it's agreat opportunity to meet people you wouldn't meet otherwise.
[15:36] <knome> like that AlbertoSalviaNov guy.
[15:36] <popey> +100
[15:36] <dholbach> What do you feel are the most urgent items for 16.04, which feel like they need to be rescued?
[15:36] <knome> dholbach, let me throw the ball back to you:
[15:37] <knome> what does canonical feel is the most important area in their official desktop/server documentation?
[15:37] <knome> or is it not important to them
[15:37] <dholbach> knome, I'm probably not the best person to answer this
[15:37] <dholbach> but it's a question we could ask the desktop and server folks
[15:37] <knome> dholbach, ack. this is one of the questions the coordinator for the doc team could help answer
[15:37] <knome> and keep in mind, and coordinate work based on that
[15:37] <dholbach> let's note it down
[15:38] <knome> nobody in the doc team has that insight.
[15:38] <GunnarHj> dholbach: Let's not talking more about the 16.04 desktop guide. We will be shipping a decent (I hope) set of docs.
[15:39] <GunnarHj> dholbach: No rescue plan needed, in other words.
[15:39] <dholbach> GunnarHj, ok... and for the server guide is there anything urgent we, right now, could help out with by raising awareness or doing anything else?
[15:40] <mhall119> GunnarHj: so nothing is in critical need of work from Canonical for 16.04 docs?
[15:40] <mhall119> basically, is there bleeding that we need to stop before we work on fixing the soure of the problem?
[15:40] <dsmythies1> For serverguide, yes: The entire thing needs to be reviewed for accuracy.
[15:40] <knome> GunnarHj, would you say that the desktop documentation for 16.04 has got the "minimal" effort to kept up-to-date instead of actually being able to improve it this cycle?
[15:40] <GunnarHj> mhall119: Not for desktop. Can't speak for server.
[15:41] <dsmythies1> desktop got about 1.50th of the attention it could have used.
[15:41] <GunnarHj> knome: Yes.
[15:41] <dsmythies1> 1/50th
[15:41] <mhall119> it sounds like server needs to have somebody review that list of pages
[15:41] <knome> GunnarHj, okay
[15:41] <AlbertoSalviaNov> I think there is nothing else I can contribute to this conversation, that I think we need a coordinator and everything else will come on its own.
[15:41] <dsmythies1> there is also talk of chnaging to some new markdown laguage.
[15:41] <AlbertoSalviaNov> So bye bye
[15:43] <mhall119> dsmythies1: that's something that can be worked out once a leader is identified and regular meetings start again
[15:43] <mhall119> I don't think we're prepared to make any decisions on that today
[15:43] <dholbach> dsmythies1, who's discussing this right now?
[15:44] <dsmythies1> e-mail thread on serverteam and docteam lists.
[15:44] <dholbach> did you get the feeling that the people who are discussing this would also put some work into this? :)
[15:45] <GunnarHj> +1'
[15:45] <dsmythies1> yes, there were, I think, 2 or 3 that said they would help with a markdown type change.
[15:46] <dholbach> but that sounds more like a 16.10 discussion, right?
[15:46] <dholbach> dsmythies1, is there a list of chapters which need to be reviewed with more priority than others?
[15:47] <dsmythies1> That is my thought yes, but we also had the same talk at 14.04 and then is fizzled. BY the way we only publish LTS serverguides
[15:47] <mhall119> dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide#Contribution_table has the list along with priorities for the server guide
[15:47] <dsmythies1> dholbach: Yes, The link I gave earlier. I will find and repeat
[15:47] <dsmythies1> ... oh never mind
[15:47] <dholbach> thanks I must have missed it
[15:48] <dsmythies1> mhall119: BY the way for desktop: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19RdaR3G_8TQ49f-Nb0XJAwhnlweMWJqsTr4kciSV5S0/edit#gid=584037095
[15:49] <mhall119> dsmythies1: is there a priority list for those?
[15:49] <dsmythies1> No. we did a bit of priority by e-mail.
[15:50] <mhall119> dsmythies1: can you find the link to that thread in the archive and add it to our etherpad?
[15:50] <dsmythies1> I'll try...
[15:50] <dholbach> thanks
[15:51] <mhall119> thanks dsmythies1
[15:52] <hannie> I want you to have a look at the workflow at The Ubuntu Manual: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Nl3Yue69IM2EflSdyeHgADET49RZRmgfDVoxHutQIk/edit#gid=2094840941
[15:52] <mhall119> dholbach: for the immediate future, how about you and I contact the desktop and server teams with these list of review needs for 16.04
[15:52] <hannie> It does work there, but the UM is more structured than ubuntu docs
[15:52] <GunnarHj> As regards the desktop, there were a mix of list messages and private mails. Not easy to provide a link to the latter.
[15:53] <dholbach> mhall119, yes, let's chat about this later on
[15:54] <dholbach> hannie, do you want to explain a bit how the structure differs?
[15:54] <hannie> Ok. UM is divided in chapters and sections. Every contributor takes care of a certain chapter or section.
[15:55] <dholbach> And the contributors are the ones who wrote them initially?
[15:55] <hannie> Ubuntu docs is more like a set of loose pages with less structure in it
[15:55] <hannie> No, each version we have different contributors
[15:56] <dholbach> and where did you recruit them?
[15:56] <hannie> Like with the docs, we also struggle to get enough people to help, so we decided to publish only LTS versions
[15:56] <hannie> Recruting is done her:e: http://ubuntu-manual.org/
[15:57] <knome> i don't think ubuntu can only ship LTS docs
[15:57] <knome> documentation needs to go with all releases
[15:57] <dsmythies1> GunnarHj: Good point.
[15:57] <hannie> knome, I agree
[15:57] <dholbach> that looks nice - good work putting this all together
[15:58] <hannie> But I waas talking about the workflow
[15:58] <knome> okay.
[15:58] <mhall119> GunnarHj: can one of you but together a list of priorities? Or at least a "top X" pages we can have the desktop team focus on?
[15:59] <dsmythies1> Desktop: The problem, the way I see it, is that I don't know if the page needs work or not until I try it. So far, evertying I have looked at has uncovered issues.
[16:01] <hannie> dsmythies1, that is why I was thinking of assigning parts of the docs to team members who can read and change "their" part of the documents
[16:01] <GunnarHj> mhall119: Hmm.. DocumentationStringFreeze was a week ago. Selecting top priority pages is quite some work. IMO we need to let 16.04 go as regards the desktop.
[16:01] <mhall119> dsmythies1: do you know which pages are going to be most commonly referred to by users?
[16:01] <dsmythies1> mhall119: No.
[16:02] <knome> mhall119, maybe the canonical IS can set something up for that
[16:02] <knome> mhall119, though they promised to do the same for the community help wiki ages ago, not seeing anything for that yet either :)
[16:02] <knome> (not blaming anybody, just pointing out)
[16:02] <mhall119> knome: you mean getting page view stats?
[16:02] <knome> yes
[16:03] <mhall119> ack, we can look into that
[16:03] <knome> isn't that the same as most referenced?
[16:03] <dsmythies1> GunnarHj:   right, we hit string freeze so we stopped. I went to serverguide, and to build issues.
[16:03] <mhall119> knome: probably
[16:03] <knome> mhall119, as you do that, here's the ticket from december 2013 for the community help wiki: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=23534
[16:04] <mhall119> knome: thanks, are there other outstanding RTs for the docs team that we need to follow up on?
[16:04] <dsmythies1> yes, but page veiw stats doesn't tell us help usage within a computer, which might be quite different.
[16:04] <knome> dsmythies1, true, though might give some insight.
[16:04] <mhall119> dsmythies1: true, but I don't think there's any way we can get that info
[16:05] <dsmythies1> agreed
[16:05] <knome> mhall119, not any i'm following ATM
[16:06] <mhall119> alright, we've gotten quite a bit of information from you guys, which is going to take some time to absorb, and dholbach and I both have action items, can we go ahead and schedule a follow-up meeting with you for next week, or in 2 weeks, to pick it up again?
[16:07] <hannie> fine
[16:07] <dsmythies1> yes, fine.
[16:07] <mhall119> same day and time, if that works well enough for everybody?
[16:07] <dsmythies1> O.K. for me.
[16:07] <GunnarHj> fine with me too
[16:07] <knome> can't promise anything, i would set a doodle poll again
[16:08] <hannie> See you all next time
[16:08] <mhall119> dholbach: are you good for next week?
[16:08] <dholbach> yes, I think that should work
[16:08] <dholbach> thanks a lot for your input everyone
[16:08] <dholbach> and thanks for the patience
[16:09] <mhall119> great, thanks everybody for your time and all of the insights
[16:09] <davidcalle> #info Notes and actions: http://pad.ubuntu.com/doc-team
[16:09] <dsmythies1> Thanks
[16:09] <davidcalle> Thanks all
[16:09] <GunnarHj> Thanks!
[16:09] <davidcalle> #endmeeting
[16:09] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Mar 24 16:09:37 2016 UTC.
[16:09] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-03-24-14.37.moin.txt
[16:10] <popey> \o/