[00:43] <matv1> just ordered the tablet. Very much looking forward to getting it down here :)
[00:44] <swalladge> can someone help me understand how ubuntu touch relates to ubuntu desktop? Is it the same base system, can I install normal desktop programs (ie libreoffice, firefox, terminal emulators, gvim, etc...), can you login to a different desktop environment, ?
[00:50] <matv1> swalladge 'regular' Ubuntu desktop runs the Unity7 desktop environment up till now. Ubuntu touch is about the same codebase but with Unity8.
[00:51] <matv1> the main difference is that they use different display servers
[00:51] <matv1> Unity7 uses goodold X server
[00:51] <matv1> Unity8 has Mir
[00:52] <EOBeav> Will 16.04 use Unity8?
[00:52] <matv1> not by default no
[00:52] <matv1> but you can choose to use it
[00:53] <EOBeav> Natively, or is that a hack?
[00:54] <matv1> depends what you call a hack :)  I wouldnt call it that.
[00:54] <EOBeav> lol, understood
[00:55] <EOBeav> A manipulation
[00:55] <matv1> Unity8 will be the standard to come
[00:55] <matv1> just not in 16.04
[00:55] <EOBeav> I'd like to get ubuntu working on a Nexus for my next phone
[00:56] <matv1> I got it running on my nexus 4. its quite an old phone but it runs really good
[00:56] <EOBeav> That means I should be able to pick one up for cheap, lol
[00:57] <EOBeav> Once you install ubuntu, do you have to go back and get it connected with your wireless provider?
[00:57] <matv1> yeah actualy I have 2. both i got second hand well under a 100 euro's
[00:58] <matv1> no it does that by itself. it just uses the info from the sim
[00:59] <matv1> unless you some kind of weird contract where the sim is linked to the phone, but i have not heard of that happen
[01:01] <EOBeav> good to know
[01:01] <EOBeav> So once it's connected, ubuntu just gets the info from that
[01:02] <matv1> yes. If you have a data contract, all you have to do is insert the sim, boot the phone
[01:03] <EOBeav> awesome
[01:03] <EOBeav> will have to look for one locally
[01:04] <matv1> EOBeav cool! hope you like it
[01:21] <swalladge> matv1: cool
[01:22] <swalladge> so how does installing regular programs work?
[01:22] <swalladge> it looks like (based on my initial research) that the system is readonly or something
[01:24] <matv1> unity8 you mean? yes the phone releases are readonly for the base system yes
[01:25] <matv1> the next ota of ubuntu touch will have mir being able to run x-server dependent apps though
[01:26] <swalladge> ok
[01:27] <swalladge> so when they market firefox, dropbox, gimp, etc. (at http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/features), are they installed like selfcontained apps or as deb packages like on desktop?
[01:29] <mcphail> swalladge: I think they're running in a hackish X11-on-Mir wrapper/container at present
[01:31] <matv1> yes thats about it. But I am no mir unity8 expert myself
[01:32] <matv1> but my understanding is that this way of wrapping  x dependent apps in unity8 will be available to the user in just a couple of months
[01:32] <matv1> so that means you would be able to use that method to wrap any x-app for use in unity8/mir
[01:33] <swalladge> nice
[01:34] <mcphail> swalladge: I think there are still some very rough edges, with regards to confinement and data sharing for X apps. I suspect the end result isn't going to feel as slick as an X app running on X
[01:37] <matv1> swalladge yup I think so too. Thats probably why they dont ship unity 8 as default yet.
[01:37] <swalladge> how does one install these though? (if the system is readonly)
[01:38] <dobey> i wouldn't call it "hackish"
[01:38] <matv1> same way one installs any app i guess. its just that the wrapper magic has to happen first
[01:39] <matv1> ah i will leabe you to the expert now :)
[01:41] <matv1> dobey is it best described as a fallback to x? or it is fully intergrated into mir now?
[01:43] <dobey> there is still some work to be done regarding installation and management of legacy apps on phone/tablet devices
[01:44] <mcphail> dobey: I suspect you think I mean "hackish" pejoratively, which isn't the case. But it isn't as integrated as a native Mir solution
[01:44] <dobey> i would say that it might be a slightly degraded experience than you would get with the same app on a traditional PC install of Ubuntu
[01:44] <dobey> but i wouldn't say it is hackish
[01:45] <dobey> mcphail: "hackish" is derogatory, regardless of how you personally intend it to mean. intentions are not definitions :)
[01:46] <mcphail> "hacking means exploring the limits of what is possible, in a spirit of playful cleverness" - RMS
[01:46] <dobey> good for RMS
[01:46] <dobey> RMS doesn't dictate what the expectations of humans are though
[01:50] <dobey> mcphail: between you and me, the term might be fine. but when describing the technology and level of support to persons who may not be as technologically inclined as we, such a term may be off-putting
[01:53] <dobey> swalladge: legacy (x11) apps are run in a container, and each within its own X server (Xmir), for security and such. there is currently an additonal scope and application for management of the container(s) and launching legacy applications, as i understand. as development continues though, various levels of integration and support will obvioulsy improve, of course
[01:53] <mcphail> dobey: perhaps, on a technology focused IRC channel, we should use the correct definition (as per RFC 1392) rather than the false one?
[01:54] <dobey> mcphail: i think we should avoid the term "hack"
[01:54] <dobey> or any terms related
[01:54] <mcphail> Fair enough
[01:55] <dobey> being a technology focuse channel, we are certainly capable of describing our features in a more precise manner than relegating them to non-descript vague terms such as "hack"
[01:57] <mcphail> Persoanlly, I think the term is apposite here. But it is very late, I still have a couple of hours of work to do before bed, and I don't want to have a silly argument. I'll concede :)
[02:00] <matv1> I'm with mcphail :)
[02:00] <dobey> mcphail: well, i certainly am not trying to argue. just wanting to provide the best information possible regarding our devices, to those asking in here. :)
[02:07] <mariogrip> mhall119: ping
[02:07] <mariogrip> dobey: the n5 is the only device I might be upgrading to active, but since it missing bt i have waited
[02:08] <mariogrip> also manta
[02:09] <dobey> mariogrip: isn't bt the only thing missing on opo too?
[02:09] <mariogrip> dobey: no, voice call and headphones
[02:10] <dobey> oh
[02:10] <mariogrip> that will be fixed in 5.1, but that has some bad battery issues
[02:10] <mariogrip> (android 5.1 version)
[02:10] <dobey> sure
[02:10] <dobey> anyway, definitely time for me to slither off
[02:11] <mariogrip> I have to work late today, I have to clean up my todo list :P
[02:14] <matv1> mariogrip you are probably  aware that  devices.ubports.com is down right :) ?
[02:14] <matv1> just noticing
[02:14] <mariogrip> oh, im not, thanks for letting me know
[02:15] <matv1> ok np
[02:17] <mariogrip> now it's back up, thanks matv1 :)
[02:18] <matv1> awsum. thank you mariogrip
[07:27] <tathhu> hello, what was that command to change touch-channel on the phone?
[12:04] <peat-psuwit> What might wake a device from sleep? I'm experiencing wakeup every 1 second.
[12:04] <peat-psuwit> My own port, LG L90
[12:17] <pmcgowan> peat-psuwit, does the syslog give any hit? the last time we saw this it was thermal events keeping the system awake
[12:17] <pmcgowan> hint
[12:21] <peat-psuwit> pmcgowan: I really can't find any clue in syslog. Most of time, all I see is seem-to-be-normal suspend follow by seem-to-be-normal resume kernel text.
[12:22] <pmcgowan> peat-psuwit, may need to instrument the kernel to see what device is doing it,  ondra any ideas?
[12:54] <mhall119> mariogrip: pong
[12:54] <mariogrip> mhall119: have you got the fp device?
[12:57] <mariogrip> (the new fairphone device)
[12:57] <mhall119> no, not yet
[13:08] <ondra> peat-psuwit yeah as pmcgowan said, kernel log and try to get logs from powerd as well
[13:09] <ondra> peat-psuwit observer messages on dbus
[13:16] <peat-psuwit> ondra: I'm not sure what to look for. If it's powerd, I should see powerd's message between suspend and resume in syslog.
[13:16] <ogra_> peat-psuwit, what makes you think that ? if you are suspended syslog logging is indeed suspended too
[13:19] <peat-psuwit> ogra_: But powerd is suspended too? Also, AFAIK syslog will pick up whatever it missed when resume.
[13:19] <ogra_> everything is suspended
[13:19] <ondra> peat-psuwit run some tool gathering dbus logs, that will show you if something is poking powerd to stay awake
[13:19] <ogra_> except the modem
[13:20] <peat-psuwit> ondra: Like, dbus-monitor?
[13:20] <ogra_> (if the HW suspends hard, there is no way for anything to gather logs ... )
[13:21] <ondra> peat-psuwit bustle-pcap is one I used before
[13:21] <ondra> ogra_ you will get dbus message once something is waking system up
[13:22] <ogra_> and how would that be logged if the system is asleep ?
[13:22] <ondra> ogra_ usually something will wake system on interrupt, that then poke on dbus powerd is it wants to keep system running
[13:22] <ogra_> (if you run dbus-monitor you prevent the sleep altogether ... if dbus wakes it up there wont b an rsyslog listening yet)
[13:23] <ogra_> you might be able to get some logging from stdout from powerd in the upstart job log though
[13:23] <ondra> ogra_ sure you will not catch things which are just consumed by driver, so interrupt will not wake system to handle itself
[13:24] <ondra> ogra_ bustle-pcap should not prevent system from suspending
[13:24] <ogra_> k
[13:24] <ondra> ogra_ at least I remember using it, so hope it still works right way
[13:25] <ondra> ogra_ but it's a bit pain to debug, since you need to make sure ssh does not keep system awake either
[13:25] <ogra_> yeah, i remember that
[13:26] <ondra> ogra_ rsalveti is master debugging power issues
[13:26] <ogra_> yeah
[13:27] <ogra_> now he is master of running 96boards :)
[13:27] <ondra> ogra_ :)
[13:28] <ondra> ogra_ BTW where can I find u-d-f code, non xenial
[13:29] <ogra_> lp:goget-ubuntu-touch ?
[13:30] <ondra> ogra_ yeah but that is xenial one
[13:30] <ogra_> i dont think we have any other branch ... probably in UDD
[13:31] <ogra_> https://code.launchpad.net/goget-ubuntu-touch ... there are a few other branches
[13:34] <ondra> ogra_ yeah but those fail when you do bzr branch
[13:35] <ondra> ogra_ those branches show just in LP web, but can't branch code
[13:35] <rsalveti> kernel log should say it all
[13:35] <ondra> ogra_ and trunk had dependencies to packages version which only exists in xenial
[13:35] <rsalveti> the time it was actually suspended (if any)
[13:35] <rsalveti> and if there was any subsystem or wakelock blocking it
[13:36] <rsalveti> ogra_: germany x italy today, should be an interesting game to watch
[13:36] <ogra_> rsalveti, yeah ... germany england was rather disappointing ... lets see if we got better now
[13:42] <peat-psuwit> rsalveti: I really can't find anything useful in kernel log. Could you please have a look? It's 2 suspend-resume cycles happen about 2 second apart. http://paste.ubuntu.com/15551755/
[13:44] <rsalveti> sure
[13:46] <rsalveti> [16042.723319] 16042.723319 / 03-29 13:27:19.245] MSM Apps Watchdog resumed.
[13:46] <rsalveti> yeah, doesn't say much, have syslog in hands?
[13:46] <rsalveti> in the past we had both missing configs (to enable a more verbose suspend process) and also code changes that were removing them
[13:47] <rsalveti> it's not even printing anything related to wakelocks
[13:56] <peat-psuwit> rsalveti: In syslog, all it has is kernel message posted above and nothing else.
[14:31] <rsalveti> peat-psuwit: hm, nothing from powerd?
[14:31] <rsalveti> might be good to change the power init script to run with debug
[14:36] <peat-psuwit> rsalveti: How, please?
[18:00] <Pastaman> hey. any known issues when doing a first time install of ubuntu touch around now? I'm getting mystic lookup timeouts when trying to download the image via ubuntu-device-flash
[18:08] <dobey> Pastaman: helps to state which device, channel, and server, you are using
[18:09] <Pastaman> dobey: sorry, of course. but as expected, the error was on my end. firewall/NAT blocking the traffic
[18:10] <dobey> ok