[00:37] probably more likely [03:11] flocculant: no progress tonight, probably tomorrow [03:12] nighty all [06:21] knome: neither did I :p [06:22] bluesabre: yup - when it's there I'll double check it :) [07:38] Hi, I am interested in contributing to xubuntu. Where can I start (I am a noob)? [07:43] shearstress: hey and welcome! [07:43] have you checked this yet? http://xubuntu.org/contribute [08:11] hi guys, I wonder if it's possible to translate the website in other languages, for example french. I could translate into french. Would like to see the website translated, is it technically possible ? [13:17] flocculant: I think you're one of the people who mentioned oem mode being broken in xenial images? [15:57] cyphermox: no - try flexiondotorg :) [15:57] Xubuntu doesn't test that mode [16:02] ok [16:02] well, xubuntu is the only one fixed today, because the other images got built just too early to catch the new ubiquity ;) [16:02] :) === ubott2 is now known as ubottu === meetingology` is now known as meetingology [19:16] PaulW2U: can I just check something - I see you did a 64bit live test today - did you really NOT see the blueman crash? [19:17] cos I appear to only get that now with 32bit :) [19:31] hi flocculant - no I did not see that crash on my Toshiba C-50B [19:31] I do see that on my Samsung R-620 though [19:32] I think I once made a comment to suggest the bug might be hardware specific? [19:34] PaulW2U: yea I'm fairly sure it is - I've consistently always seen it everywhere :) [19:34] seems now I'm not with 64bit virtual box ... [19:34] thanks :) [20:00] flocculant: just for you, I wouldn't bother for anyone else :) [20:01] I've just booted my Samsung with 32 and 64 bit images [20:01] I now only see the crash running 32-bit [20:02] PaulW2U: thanks :) [20:03] I can forget about it now - who cares about 32 bit :D [20:04] I agree. I only test because someone somewhere asks for 32-bit tests [20:05] pretty much why I do [20:05] for what it's worth I commented on the bug [20:25] flocculant, maybe we should consider dropping 32 after 16.04 [20:37] I wasn't serious :) [20:44] i was though... [20:44] by the time we release 18.04, the next LTS, how many 32-bit machines that can run that version exist? [20:45] that's different [20:45] dropping after 16.04 is 16.10 [20:46] but we recommend the LTS's, and tbh, if we don't intend to ship a 32-bit version of 18.04, it wouldn't make much sense to do that for the regulal releases before [20:46] well [20:46] evening all [20:46] hello ochosi [20:46] what do we gain by dropping an arch? [20:46] hey ochosi :) [20:46] flocculant, more testing time for the other arh [20:46] +c [20:46] right [20:46] i see a 32bit discussion? :) [20:46] yup [20:47] well we can still ship stuff and do less testing on 32bit as a middle ground [20:47] but given that those who actually test 32 test 32 not both [20:47] is 32bit what summons you lately? [20:47] ^ ochosi [20:47] ha ha [20:47] so we'd not gain anything imo [20:47] knome: "lately"? :) have i ever appeared "out of thin air" before by the mention of 32bit? [20:47] :P [20:47] When I jump early to development releases, it's on hardware that doesn't do 64bit. [20:47] generally that is [20:48] well, maybe [20:48] the fact is that 32bit machines are rarer and rarer [20:49] of course [20:49] I don't think that in 2 months is time to be doing that [20:49] not got an issue with starting to look at the issue generally [20:50] like - can we get metrics - how many 32 bit/64bit downloads go out [20:50] how many 32bit testers do we have atm? [20:50] ochosi: a few that pop up [20:50] even if many people test on 32-bit only (as you say), what do we benefit from that then if most end-users use 64-bit machines [20:50] ochosi: much like 64bit [20:51] flocculant: and the 32bitters do mostly 32bit-only? or both? [20:51] what do we benefit by not having 32bit? [20:51] forgetting about testing [20:52] less ambiguity with downloads [20:53] of course there are options like only build 64bit desktop, both for core/base [20:53] ochosi: mostly so - from memory [20:54] and there's also the mini ISO [20:54] !minimal [20:54] The Minimal CD image is very small in size, and it downloads most packages from the Internet during installation, allowing you to select only those you want. The installer is text based (rather than graphical as used on the Desktop DVD). See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD [20:54] ochosi: I don't think that is of any importance here [20:54] Mini stinks. [20:54] yeah, mini is a bit useless tbh [20:54] if you don't have the bandwidth to download stuff before the install you likely won't have it *during* the install [20:54] i wouldn't say so, but ok :P [20:55] it's not *entirely* useless, just a bit ;) [20:55] note that we aren't talking about connectivity here, we're talking about 32/64-bit [20:55] ochosi: Actually, I meant installing all the packages during install vs having them already pre-installed in a squashfs. [20:55] knome: note taken! [20:55] knome: 'less ambiguity with downloads' - ok, don't link to them on the site, fixed. [20:56] why build something that isn't linked to? [20:56] why not build it? [20:56] For the people that still need it. [20:56] all I've got so far in the lets not 32 bit is some vague 'people use 64bit' comment [20:57] Unit193: sorry I meant 2 not's :p [20:57] And pretty useless to comment about Core at this point anyway. [20:57] agreed [20:57] Unit193, clearly anything is useless from your point of view, so why take part in the discussion at all? [20:58] knome: Stop, please. [20:58] Unit193, same to you, please [20:58] I meant the personal attacks, it's really kind of silly... [20:58] originally, i said "discuss about dropping 32", not "let's do it now" [20:58] I mean really... [20:59] i guess everybody go in their corner and take 5 and in a little while we can meet again and pick up the discussion anew (if people still want to) [21:00] as I said - for the discussion to actually mean anything - we need data on what people actually grab - not sure how we can do that [21:00] or even if [21:00] the data we have is what kind of pc's are being produced [21:01] if the situation is what it is today, i don't think 32-bit machines will be any more common in 2018 [21:01] but is that the data we need to use? [21:01] flocculant: Well, not sure if Canonical keeps metrics on that, but might be able to check torrents. [21:01] Unit193: yep [21:02] i would say it's at least one of the guidelines we can use when making decisions [21:02] yes - not got an issue with that at all [21:02] unless canonical is willing to open the download amounts [21:02] the data, that is [21:02] but imo more important is how many xubuntu32/64 there are is more [21:03] i would imagine you can still upgrade to 18.04 with 32-bit [21:03] i mean unless canonical shuts the door for that for good [21:03] who knows? [21:04] what distros have dropped 32bit so far? [21:04] b0a17a49da5d39509a548a8c6dc68f8caa1a5d36 xubuntu-15.10-desktop-amd64.iso 1.02GiB 707 10 28 28.79GiB [21:04] 3a39ef73cb4b4ef9e5c4284f7396a434e64aafa4 xubuntu-15.10-desktop-i386.iso 1.03GiB 411 15 20 20.65GiB [21:05] downloads isn't completely reliable, since many people might be downloading the 32-bit version even if their computer supported 64-bit [21:05] at least in the past the 64-bit installations had some problems that weren't in 32-bit, some of that legacy is surely still going [21:05] probably [21:06] i see people asking that time to time on #xubuntu, so i don't think it's a small group of people [21:06] ochosi, i don't think any have done that so far [21:07] I thought I had seen something in the past about this [21:08] yeah, ubuntu recommends the 64-bit download by default now [21:08] and say that 32-bit are for "systems with less than 2GB RAM" [21:09] https://bryanquigley.com/crazy-ideas/still-running-32-bit-ubuntu [21:10] here's the survey results: https://bryanquigley.com/crazy-ideas/32-bit-usage-survey-results [21:10] that's over a year old though :) [21:11] Unit193, please explain why it is any more useless to talk about core than 18.04? [21:11] yea I know - wasn't so much the data as the thoughts there - I'd assume at least some level of canonical in that thought pattern [21:11] Unit193, they are both targets in the future, and we will want to consider both as we will at some point release both [21:13] knome: Because so far it's been pretty vaporware, can't get much real movement on it from others. Sure it's still a target for us, but we don't control that so to rely on that at this point is simply too early. [21:13] Also, fwiw I was looking here: http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/ [21:15] looks like the amount of 32-bit downloads is getting smaller in proportion to all [21:17] of course it will [21:17] but 32 bit download is not 1% of total is it :) [21:17] for 14.04, percentage was 44%, for 15.10 37% [21:17] nope [21:18] one of the real questions is how many of the machines running 32-bit downloads could run 64-bit [21:18] Of course, these are only counting torrents, not upgrades or http downloads. IMO, 16.04 will be more interesting. [21:18] sure, there just isn't the data so far [21:18] I don't know, but if we're not already we should at least try to push 64bit more too. [21:18] it's our recommended too [21:19] Too bad you can't easily flip without re-installing. [21:19] yea [21:19] Unit193, i'm sorry if you took the previous comment personally, i'm just frustrated with comments with something being "useless" to say; nothing is [21:21] Well, it seemed a bit, soo.. And I'm just trying to see if there's other solutions (eg, not linking on the site), and of course 'core' has seen near zero movement this cycle. :/ [21:21] this discussion shouldn't include core [21:22] 32bit might still be interesting for virtualizing though [21:22] flocculant, not at the core (pun intended) [21:22] :) [21:22] So, what's the recommended method of installign (if there is one) once there's an outcry on the ml or FB/Twitter/etc? (because big change, so of course there will be. :D ) [21:22] but i think it's good to remember we will likely have those images to test too [21:22] Unit193, recommended method of installing... if 32-bit is dropped? [21:23] or if something else [21:23] knome: Right, and hardware only supports 32. [21:23] i haven't went in the details in my head :P [21:23] i guess we can always wait for Fedora to drop 32bit and enforce Wayland to take the first (s)hit instead of us [21:23] knome: s/went/gone/ [21:23] ochosi: Ahaha. :D [21:23] maybe. [21:23] Also, no Xfce on Wayland. :'( [21:24] Unit193: on xwayland though [21:24] That's just about as sane as xmir... [21:24] also, since olivier is actively working on wayland it's still in the cards that we'll at some point have something for that [21:25] one of the reasons this discussion might be very appropriate for 18.04 is that there might not really be many 32-bit machines around at that time [21:25] (especially those that can sanely run the system) [21:25] right [21:25] so looking at this from that point of view, i'm not sure if it's going to be that much of an outcry [21:25] Well, some netbooks are/were still made with decent enough hardware, but lacking 64bit. I have one. [21:25] that I can understand as a starting point for a discussion - but as I said earlier - not 16.10 ;) [21:26] And, it may not, but typically things tend to go that way if they can. [21:26] knome: why would you say that there won't be "many" again? (sorry if i missed the evidence before) [21:27] flocculant, my point on "sooner than later" is that if we release 32-bit images for 16.10, 17.04 and 17.10, there would be less sense to not release images for 18.04 [21:27] ochosi: I think knome means being built [21:27] ochosi, not so many 32-bit machines are being produced any more [21:27] as in machines [21:28] right, but even that seems like a presumption only (even though it seems sane) [21:28] ochosi, so the percentage of xubuntu machines running 32-bit OS'es will most likely decline (or "keep declining" <- judging by the torrent downloads alone, so not very scientific) [21:28] of course [21:28] as much as i'd love to see to the future, especially next weeks lottery numbers, i can't [21:29] and i thought i didn't need to explicitly state that ;) [21:29] I don't disagree with that point - doesn't = let's not bother with 32bit images now [21:29] though [21:29] Well, does FB/Twitter/G+ or whatever do polls? [21:29] Unit193, yeah, but so does 4chan [21:29] [: [21:29] yeah, i'm just wondering about less "developed" countries where we'll see lots of old machines around for a longer while [21:30] i mean frankly, even at my current workplace there are folks with 6+ yr old computers at home [21:30] with a 1GB+ ISO and all of the updated ubuntu core, is the newer xubuntu releases really targeting developing countries [21:30] knome: There is /g/! And, well in theory users can be polled on what they use, and what their hardware supports, as well as if they plan to upgrade, no? Gives at least a little more facts... [21:30] (like austria) [21:30] frankly there's one here I bought my lad for his 18th - 9 years ago [21:30] i have an old desktop as well - but it's 64-bit [21:31] so age isn't really the deciding faction here [21:31] no [21:31] as Unit193 just pointed out, there are newer 32-bit only computers built too [21:32] knome: ofc age isn't the only factor, but since you used it as basis for your argument i guess it's ok to use it the other way round too ;) [21:32] while I'm happy to have the discussion - to do so we need some sort of data to inform it [21:32] ochosi, where? :P [21:32] flocculant: +1 [21:33] Also as long as it doesn't disappear from the archive... :P [21:33] (warning: self-irony to follow:) would that work the same way as the last survey, where we gathered a lot of data and analyzed it quickly? [21:35] haha [21:35] yeah [21:35] (that said, of course i'm not opposed to gathering data) [21:36] :) [21:37] there's just a dislike to analyzing it? :) [21:37] doesn't need to be an exhaustive set of questions does it ... [21:37] like just one 64 bit Y/N [21:37] * knome pants already [21:37] yeah, and maybe the upgrade question Unit193 mentioned [21:38] and their favorite color [21:38] please don't mention that word :( [21:38] flocculant, "Unit193" ? [21:38] upgrade [21:38] bah [21:38] now I did [21:38] ;) [21:46] evening all [21:47] hi bluesabre :) [21:47] evening bluesabre [21:47] dropping 32bit likely means harming the folks we write "Xubuntu at..." about [21:47] I'd strongly advise against it [21:47] "don't make the noisy people angry" [21:47] :P [21:48] well, not that [21:48] no? [21:48] :P [21:48] don't cut off our users just because it makes things just a tad bit easier [21:48] that was never the idea though [21:51] I'm reading it as, the idea is that we should drop it now because the user base is expected to be smaller in time for 18.04 [21:52] that's the very b&w version :P [21:52] we don't really gain anything though [21:52] less testing effort. [21:52] again ... [21:52] stop dragging testing into it [21:53] yeah, if that's the only thing we gain, I think we could stand to lose quite a bit more [21:53] flocculant, i was simply repeating what was discussed before to bluesabre. [21:53] if we had hundreds of people testing 64 and a handful forced to test 32 bit - that *might* be a factor [21:53] flocculant, and please don't tell me to drag testing to it since testing is an essential part of releasing/not releasing images [21:53] *not to [21:54] using testing as a reason to not do something is not a reasonable pov [21:54] if we have 5 people testing 32-bit and 5 64-bit, and after this move we could have 8 testing 64-bit, it's an impact [21:54] i'm not using it as a reason to not do something [21:55] then don't drag testing into the discussion in that way then [21:55] in what way should i drag it in then? [21:56] anyway, i was just wanting to get some discussion going [21:56] anyway you like *when* we have data [21:56] clearly you don't want to do that, so let's leave it at that [21:56] bluesabre: thanks for cleaning up some of the blueprints [21:56] ochosi: np [21:56] I'm happy to have the discussion - when we have data to inform us [21:56] well [21:56] bluesabre: any bugs that we'll definitely have to fix even after the release through updates? [21:57] ochosi, we are releasing the first media manager article today, so the gmb one will be out next tuesday, when do you have time to give some input? [21:57] i see a few related to your apps [21:57] I'm happy to have the discussion whenever - but we need data for it to be meaningful [21:57] flocculant, i don't think any data can help us make a certain decision either way [21:57] ochosi: the blueman one maybe [21:57] ochosi: well, there's the clutter-related issues, those are annoying. Disabled clutter in parole, disabling the camera in mugshot with the next upload (until there is an appropriate fix) [21:57] i don't disagree that data would help though [21:57] flocculant: is that in our hands? (haven't read yet) [21:57] knome: without it. it really is just a guess [21:58] bluesabre: right, those are meh [21:58] flocculant, it's just a guess even with the data [21:58] ochosi: not afaik - there's been talk upstream on it [21:58] ochosi, flocculant: blueman isn't in ubuntu proper, so it might come down to us at least applying a patch [21:58] bluesabre: oh right - camera disable? [21:59] that'll have to go on my list of things to not forget to tell people then :p [21:59] bluesabre: ubuntu uses something like gnome-bluetooth then? [21:59] ochosi bluesabre > https://github.com/blueman-project/blueman/issues/488 [22:00] flocculant, release notes plz :P [22:00] flocculant: otherwise, you get this https://imgur.com/C7qPOWO [22:01] bluesabre: yea I know - I reported it :p [22:01] with the patch, the "Capture from camera" option is disabled (greyed out) [22:01] forgot all about it - no webcam - webcam interferes with pavucontrol here ... [22:01] ochosi: ubuntu uses gnome-bluetooth, which integrates with indicator-bluetooth [22:01] "Ideally blueman-applet would get removed from autostart then. This could be achieved by installing it as a systemd user service that depends on the bluetooth service." [22:02] knome: ofc [22:02] or, detect that an error occurred and handle it gracefully... :D [22:03] error dialog is better than crash imo [22:03] yes [22:03] much better [22:04] bluesabre: that wouldn't be a crash, just blueman not being there if i understand it correctly [22:04] the patch seems to be what you suggest: https://gist.github.com/infirit/26048f471846199abec6 [22:05] maybe instead of "raise exception" it could just do a print [22:05] then no crash, but a message in the log [22:05] bluesabre: what I'm not understanding now is that it only appears to be on 32 bit images [22:06] not seeing it on vm's and PaulW2U_ checked on hardware earlier [22:06] ochosi, are you ignoring my question? [22:06] knome: no, just postponing it (it's further down the priority queue) [22:07] flocculant: might be something with systemd, a race condition, or something else [22:07] ok [22:07] ochosi, fair enough, and i understand it is, but it's high in the marketing team priority, so i would prefer if you actually could get to it before next week [22:07] I'll say that like I understand :p [22:07] knome: also, as i previously said, i'm not really a good candidate for input one of those articles as i'm not using my xubuntu computers to play music (or even media) anymore [22:08] ochosi, as i told you before, i'd mostly want your input on talking a bit about the shimmer layout for gmb [22:08] ochosi, most other questions you can answer to with oneliners that take a minute to answer [22:08] knome: right, i can talk about it from a historical perspective :) [22:08] ochosi, creating the layout is history... [22:08] this patch is probably fine https://gist.github.com/infirit/26048f471846199abec6 - disables the version checking where the error happens, or could wrap the code in a try/except block for neatness (that's what I would probably do) [22:09] first article published [22:09] https://xubuntu.org/news/my-media-manager-clementine/ [22:09] pleia2, will you help me social media that ^ ? [22:09] you blog too much [22:09] :( [22:09] (I kid, I kid!) [22:09] evening pleia2 :) [22:09] o/ flocculant [22:10] flocculant: thanks for linking the bug - I'll patch something together and toss it into -staging for preliminary review [22:10] pleia2: haha [22:10] tweeted [22:10] bluesabre: okey doke [22:10] ochosi, and you blog too little [22:10] :P [22:10] (i no kid) [22:11] bluesabre: yeah, try except sounds sane here. that patch is a bit crude (but at least identifies the important portion of code) [22:11] knome: yeah, "ochosi bloglittle" [22:12] G+ and fb done [22:12] pleia2, thanks :) [22:12] pleia2, more social mediaing tomorrow! [22:12] ochosi: yup, hence my slightly different patch which I'll get together lately :) [22:12] *later [22:13] haha [22:13] 1) knome sends a mail to the dev list telling tracker.x.o -> dev.x.o [22:13] 2) next mail: tracker.x.o doesn't work! [22:13] reading and comprehension skills are underrated :( [22:14] yup [22:15] a redirect from tracker to dev would not be such a bad thing, but not many should be familiar with tracker [22:15] puckz, you should talk with pleia2 about xubuntu.se... (i'll happily follow the discussion too) [22:15] * knome points bluesabre to pleia2, she told me that it's ok to drop tracker.x.o [22:15] ;) [22:16] knome Thanks! So you figured out that it was registered by me?! :-D [22:16] "people who would miss tracker know where to go to find the new one" [22:16] puckz: you told us in -offtopic yesterday [22:16] puckz, i see your mail in the moderation queue too [22:17] pleia2 knome :-) [22:18] puckz: to be honest it makes me a bit uncomfortable, Canonical owns the trademarks and things, and we have to be careful about how people portray Xubuntu, but I'm very glad you came here to talk to us :) [22:18] I'm thinking maybe we should have stock content that we have people localize [22:18] but I'm at work now, so I should do that [22:19] done for Tuesday - night all :) [22:19] night flocculant [22:19] night flocculant [22:19] night flocculant [22:19] pleia2: Ask before is much better than have to delete afterwards, right? :-) [22:20] flocculant: GN! [22:20] puckz: I certainly appreciate it :) [22:20] http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-web-translations [22:20] that's an excerpt from a PM last night [22:20] which could have totally been in this channel, but because it was 2:30am... [22:21] i've proposed the same before, so not a surprise that has been kept secret either [22:21] knome: yeah, that [22:21] making translating the whole site possible doesn't feel like a sensible/reachable target at this point [22:22] otoh, getting what's proposed on the pad could even happen as fast as for 16.04 release [22:23] knome: Was the link for me? "Either you have not been granted access to this resource or your entitlement has timed out. Please try again." [22:23] puckz, what's your LP ID? [22:24] knome: LP ID? #rookie :-D [22:24] launchpad ID/username [22:24] (do you have one?) [22:25] ~pfalk? [22:25] knome: happy? [22:25] ochosi, maybe [22:26] knome: Yes, pfalk [22:26] ochosi, no favorite artists? [22:26] puckz, try loading the pad url again [22:27] knome: I'm in [22:29] ochosi, i'll just pre-fill vengaboys and günther for you then [22:29] knome: ok, really done now [22:29] ochosi, on a more serious note: thank you (and see, it didn't take that long) [22:29] knome: yeah yeah ;) [22:30] anyway, sorry for taking so much poking :p [22:30] * knome shrugs [22:30] you are one week early, so i'm good [22:30] but wouldn't you say it was totally worth it? [22:30] well [22:30] i guess [22:30] ;) [22:30] not as much as some of the pixel pushing we've done [22:31] * knome tries to build up the "we" spirit again [22:38] the xubuntu-artwork we is a great one! [22:38] * bluesabre helps [22:38] The Great 1 [22:38] bluesabre: You couldn't hit that xfwm bug either, right? [22:39] Unit193: haven't spent much time trying to recreate [22:40] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2016-March/016366.html that one. [22:41] puckz, we'll totally mail the -devel list when we have something done [22:41] likely need some togeter time with pleia2 and slickymaster [22:41] which has been tight lately [22:42] Unit193: I might comment on that bug [22:42] knome: ok [22:43] "There has not been a release since that commit, so there is no previous version of xfwm4." [22:43] Unit193: you said debian picked up the patch though, right? [22:43] (maybe?) [22:43] :D [22:44] bluesabre: In VCS, but as of yet unuploaded... [22:44] [04:10:23] < KGB-1> * debian/patches [22:44] [04:10:23] < KGB-1> - 0001-Only-check-for-known-buttons-in-_NET_WM_MOVERESIZE added, fix xfwm4 [22:44] [04:10:23] < KGB-1> freeze when clicking on the menu bar of KDE application. closes: #819228 [22:45] I'll see if I can reproduce, and possibly get a package up for that this week [22:45] FWIW, you can cheat and do a 'debian unreleased vcs' thing. ;) [22:45] knome: yeah, since i'm going away for about a week i had to do it today anyway to be on time ;) [22:45] Unit193: not familiar with that, but might be worth my while [22:46]