[02:37] <naught101> Has anyone else had problems with sleeping after upgrading to xenial? My HP zbook locks up completely as soon as I press sleep - even magic keys don't work, and I have to hard-reset.
[02:38] <naught101> Not sure where to look in the logs for info..
[03:31] <pepee> naught101, what graphics card and system specs?
[04:02] <naught101> pepee: 04:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Opal PRO [Radeon R7 M260] (rev ff),
[04:03] <naught101> pepee: the rest is basically the same as http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/Laptops/hp-zbook-14-mobile-workstation-%28energy-star%29, I think.
[04:03] <naught101> Oh, 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Broadwell-U Integrated Graphics (rev 09) too - not sure which one I'm using right now
[04:09] <pepee> naught101, can't remember how to debug this kind of stuff, other than setting up netconsole and using and external machine to log messages
[04:10] <pepee> naught101, there is a guide in the ubuntu wiki(?) IIRC
[04:11] <naught101> Yeah, ok. Just wanted to check whether it was a common thing.
[04:14] <pepee> naught101, I'd ask both ##linux and #radeon (the last one just in case, your system is probably using the intel card... but #radeon could be of help)
[10:51] <BluesKaj> Heyas all
[12:34] <sithlord48> g morning #kubuntu
[12:36] <sithlord48> i have a problem mounting nfs share on one machine on my network (6 others mount it fine)  one gives me "access denied by server while mountnng"  all machines have the same line added to fstab . the problem machine is 14.04 w/ only thrunderbird and nfs-common rpcbind installed after base install
[12:41] <memphisto> what version is the nfs server
[12:41] <memphisto> can you try mount -t nfs -o nfsvers=version_of_the_nfs_you_have
[12:54] <sithlord48> memphisto: sorry was afk . its nfs4 , and hat give the same error
[12:56] <sithlord48> my fstab line is <IP>:/mnt/storage/data /mnt/data nfs _netdev,rw,sync,auto 0 0
[12:57] <sithlord48> export is done w/ 192.168.0.1/24 , works on all other machines on the network not sure why its not mounting on this one
[13:08] <memphisto> how does the /etc/export look like
[13:09] <sithlord48> memphisto: /mnt/storage/data 192.168.1.1/24(rw,sync,no_subtree_check)
[13:12] <memphisto> could you try mounting it as nfs3
[13:12] <sithlord48> SURE
[13:13] <sithlord48> weird that works ..
[13:14] <sithlord48> memphisto: how can i force nfs3 in fstab?
[13:15] <sithlord48> memphisto:  never mind  , thanks its working correctly now . i wonder why this one works as nfs3 when the rest are nfs4
[14:48] <Mz11235> I am very new to linux. I am using Kubuntu 15.10.  When I first installed Kubuntu 15.10, my sound was working, but right now (after one day of installing) sound is not working. It doesn't with speaker nor with headphones. And the volume control icon on the system tray is gone too.
 Hi Mz11235 and welcome to Kubuntu
 Sound managment controls can be found in the Systems Settings Control panel
 There are lots of controls and selection choices
[14:56] <Mz11235> Thanks, Sick_Rimmit. I have just fixed the problem. Thanks a lot.
[15:20] <AndrewM> Hello, all
[15:21] <Belzeboobs> Hello loosers...
[15:21] <AndrewM> I'm upgrading from Kubuntu 15.04 to 15.10 and wondering if it's going okay...
[15:21] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: I am huge.
[15:22] <AndrewM> The upgrade window appears frozen...
[15:22] <Belzeboobs> Hello loosers...
[15:22] <BluesKaj> Belzeboobs, your insult is even spelled wrong
[15:23] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: I can't tell you, it's a secret.
[15:24] <AndrewM> Anyone able to help on an upgrade question?
[15:24] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Id give you a silly answer.
[15:25] <AndrewM> The upgrade window is frozen, but I do see that process "wily" is doing something...
[15:25] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: *facepalm*.
[15:26] <BluesKaj> Belzeboobs, do you have a kubuntu support question?
[15:26] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: Nope!
[15:27] <AndrewM> Does anyone know if that's normal? I don't want to reboot... but don't know how long to wait.
[15:27] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Yes.
[15:28] <BluesKaj> AndrewM, how are you upgrading ?
[15:28] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: I'm good. What do you want to talk about?
[15:29] <BluesKaj> Belzeboobs, I don't , I'm here to help with kubuntu , this is not a chit chat room
[15:29] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: From what?
[15:29] <AndrewM> BluesKaj: I used Muon to get everything up-to-date.  Then I rebooted. Then I went back to Muon and it said a new version was available.
[15:29] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: I don't know TV's boring like that.
[15:29] <AndrewM> BluesKaj: So I selected the new version and followed the instructions.
[15:29] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Interesting.
[15:30] <AndrewM> BluesKaj: It downloaded everything and went to the "installing updates" part.
[15:30] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Hello.
[15:30] <AndrewM> It stayed on 0% for a while, never moved off of there.
[15:30] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: We haven't. It's nice to speak to you again.
[15:30] <AndrewM> BluesKaj: Then I minimzed the windows and brought them up.
[15:30] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Both.
[15:30] <AndrewM> The update windoe doesn't refresh.  You know, it shows the desktop background instead of text or anything.
[15:31] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: I is fierce.
[15:31] <AndrewM> I see in "top" that the "wily" process is using 2.3 - 2.7% of CPU...
[15:31] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: I would suggest that the egg was first.
[15:31] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  try doing the upgrade from the teminal with the command "sudo do-release-upgrade"
[15:31] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: I will see my girlfriend.
[15:32] <AndrewM> sithlord48: Can I stop the current upgrade? How do I know what its doing?
[15:32] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Can't you see it's dying?
[15:32] <BluesKaj> AndrewM, upgrqading from 15.04 is difficult since your packages all have to be up to date which is difficulr sinc ethe repos for 15.04 is no longer in service....I recommend a clean install of 15.10 or wait for 16.04 official release next thurs
[15:32] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: A long time.
[15:32] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  kill it and we will fix it using dpkg
[15:32] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: I will be drawing cartoons and comics. It will be the win.
[15:33] <BluesKaj> sithlord48, this bezel person looks like a bot
[15:33] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: What do you think?
[15:33] <sithlord48> seams so
[15:33] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: Exactly, But thats the way I flip My eggs, Sir.
[15:33] <sithlord48> honestly AndrewM do you have a seperate home partition?
[15:33] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: 654.
[15:33] <sithlord48> if so i would just do a fresh install of 16.04 and keep your home partition
[15:34] <BluesKaj> yup
[15:34] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: I would say nothing.
[15:34] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: Yes.
[15:34] <BluesKaj> that would the method to use
[15:34] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: You knew that?
[15:35] <AndrewM> Okay...
[15:35] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: How smart are you?
[15:35] <AndrewM> Should wily end up popping back with an error message at some point?
[15:35] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Hey!
[15:36] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  maybe
[15:36] <BluesKaj> !ops | Belzeboobs seems to be a bot
[15:36] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: Annie are you okay? Annie are you ok? Are you okay annie?
[15:36] <Belzeboobs> BluesKaj: Do you enjoy having any emmotions.
[15:36] <Belzeboobs> ubottu: What else would you like to talk about today.
[15:36] <Belzeboobs> ubottu: Maybe.
[15:36] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  you killed it ? ?? if so be sure to kill all dpkg processes as well
[15:36] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: Nothing.
[15:37] <AndrewM> sithlord: No, no seperarate home partition...  Just googling that now.  Didn't know you could do that...
[15:37] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: Neither, I prefer spectator.
[15:37] <AndrewM> sithlord48: No, I haven't killed anything.
[15:37] <Belzeboobs> AndrewM: There are lots of clouds in the sky today.
[15:37] <sekrit> i like waffles
[15:37] <Belzeboobs> sekrit: Yeah, waffles are awesome.
[15:37] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  back up your user data and do a fresh install w/ 3 partitions one / (no more then 30 GB ) swap that is 1.5x your ram and rest set to /home
[15:37] <Belzeboobs> sithlord48: A penguin in a blender!
[15:39] <AndrewM> sithlord: Yeah, data is already backed up...
[15:39] <AndrewM> sithlord: So it's no longer possible to upgrade from 15.04 to 15.10?
[15:39] <sithlord48> then save yourself the headace and install a 16.04 daily
[15:40] <sithlord48> its not impossible its just alot of stuff plus systemd stuff  add its just a tricky upgrade
[15:40] <Hask> 0.
[15:40] <AndrewM> Damn...
[15:40] <sithlord48> do you have alot of packages installed or something?
[15:40] <AndrewM> sithlord: Not really...
[15:41] <BluesKaj> AndrewM, suggest you set up a separate / and /home partition , then you can just install to / and reatian lot of your settings and all your data
[15:41] <sithlord48> what BluesKaj said
[15:41] <BluesKaj> retain even
[15:41] <AndrewM> sithlord: And the current Muon screen says I'm completely up-to-date on 15.04 patches/updates...
[15:42] <sithlord48> don't do upgrades like that in muon . its not helpful to see why things are taking time or if it fails .
[15:42] <sithlord48> instead use the cli program "do-release-uprade"
[15:42] <AndrewM> BluesKaj: Is setting up a separate / and /home partition something I can do with the installation DVD?
[15:42] <sithlord48> durring the partition step you can  choose manual partition
[15:43] <AndrewM> Okay...
[15:43] <sithlord48> you will make a / partition (using ext4) no bigger then 30 GB .
[15:43] <sithlord48> make a swap that is about 1.5x your ram (or don't i never do ..)
[15:43] <sithlord48> then the rest make a /home partiton using ext4 and the rest of your space
[15:44] <AndrewM> Okay, thanks...
[15:44] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  if your really gun ho on upgrading from 15.04 to 15.10 ill help you but its really faster to just install 16.04
[15:45] <AndrewM> Not exactly what to do at this point...  I don't think "wily" is doing anything...  I could kill it and try to CLI do-release-upgrade
[15:45] <sithlord48> sure
[15:45] <AndrewM> Or reboot rather than killing it...
[15:45] <sithlord48> kill it
[15:45] <sithlord48> just be warned depending on what it was doing it might not boot again...
[15:45] <BluesKaj> AndrewM, I recommend using gparted live on cd or usb media
[15:45] <AndrewM> Yep...
[15:45] <AndrewM> I have a complete backup...
[15:46] <AndrewM> Okay, I'll reboot.  Fingers crossed...
[15:46] <sithlord48> good luck
[15:46] <AndrewM> Thanks...
[15:46] <AndrewM> It complained that I had to kill the "top" process, but said nothing about "wily"...
[15:48] <AndrewM> Seems to have rebooted just fine...
[15:49] <sithlord48> ok step one
[15:49] <sithlord48> sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade
[15:49] <sithlord48> be sure your current realease is upto date before tryin to upgrade
[15:49] <AndrewM> Woah, now Muon has a huge number of updates.  It had none before...
[15:50] <sithlord48> your repo changed to wily ones i bet
[15:50] <AndrewM> Yep. That's exactly what happened.
[15:51] <AndrewM> I'm trying to do sudo apt update
[15:51] <sithlord48> so do the full-upgrade and then you should run sudo apt-get autoremove to remove obsolete packaes
[15:51] <AndrewM> Keeps stopping with "dpkg
[15:51] <AndrewM>  was interuppted"
[15:51] <sithlord48> ok weill lets fix that
[15:52] <sithlord48> sudo dpkg --configure -a
[15:52] <sithlord48> let dpkg finish what it was doing before
[15:52] <AndrewM> Okay...
[15:52] <AndrewM> "Modified since intallation"
[15:52] <AndrewM> "P{ackage distrubtor has shipped an updated version"
[15:53] <sithlord48> it it going or it stoped?
[15:53] <AndrewM> It's asking :Install the package maintainer's version or keep the currently-install version?
[15:53] <sithlord48> well thats your hang right there from the gui failing to ask
[15:53] <sithlord48> what is the file ?
[15:53] <AndrewM> Oh, it's just /etc/issue
[15:53] <AndrewM> Damn.
[15:54] <AndrewM> I'll keep the current version.  Makes no difference.
[15:54] <AndrewM> Now its going again...
[15:54] <sithlord48> yeah if you modified the setting then keep your version if not just use the package mainters version its a config should its not going to explode if you pick the wrong one
[15:55] <sithlord48> you might be asked a few times for different files
[15:55] <AndrewM> Okay, did the sudo apt update
[15:55] <sithlord48> no sudo apt full-upgrade
[15:55] <sithlord48> that will unlike regular "upgrade" also install new packages the system needs
[15:56] <AndrewM> Okay!
[15:56] <AndrewM> Seems to be going...
[15:57] <AndrewM> Yeah, it's going through the packages now...
[15:57] <sithlord48> don't be shocked if it dies at some point and we have to manually run apt-get -f install
[15:57] <AndrewM> Okay...
[15:58] <AndrewM> Yeah, even the status bar has moved to 1% now...
[15:58] <sithlord48> well im sure you have lots of upackages that need upgrade..
[15:58] <AndrewM> Oh man, thank you, sithlord48 and BluesKaj....
[15:59] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  your welcome but i still think you should install with a seperate /home and 16.04 (we can upgrade to that next if your feeling lucky)
[15:59] <AndrewM> Yep, it'll take a while...  But as long as I can see it progressing, I feel better...
[15:59] <AndrewM> Shit, maybe I spoke too soon...
[15:59] <BluesKaj> let's wait til you have it fully upgraded before declaring success :-)
[15:59] <AndrewM> It seem stuck now...
[16:00] <AndrewM> Oh wait there it goes again...
[16:00] <AndrewM> Maybe I should quit looking at it...
[16:00] <sithlord48> my upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04 resulted in me installing over my install...
[16:00] <sithlord48> lol
[16:01] <sithlord48> it should be noted that do-release-upgrade -d does not show 16.04 from 14.04 so i had to do it the manual way..
[16:01] <BluesKaj> an don't fret, the progressbar will stop intermittently while apt configures other related packages
[16:01] <AndrewM> Yikes...
[16:01] <BluesKaj> AndrewM,^
[16:02] <AndrewM> Woah, got a pop-up...
[16:02] <AndrewM> "Restart services during package upgrades without asking?"  Yes, I guess...  Why would anyone say no?
[16:02] <sithlord48> maybe your using that service..
[16:03] <AndrewM> Use the computer while upgrading it?  Who is that brave? :)
[16:03] <sithlord48> like when i upgrade remote machines via ssh i dont want tthat to restart on me
[16:03] <sithlord48> this is not windows you cna use it while it upgrades
[16:04] <AndrewM> sithlord: Oh good point about ssh...  Didn't think of that.
[16:05] <sithlord48> 16.04 is working nicely so far.. btw
[16:06] <BluesKaj> 16.04 is quite stable now
[16:06] <sithlord48> plasma 5.6 really makes the difference (eve on my arch machines it was a noticeable improvement)
[16:06] <AndrewM> Yeah, this is my work machine...  They scanned it and said that 15.04 is not allowed on the network, so I have to go to 15.10 right away...
[16:06] <AndrewM> Otherwise I'd wait for 16.04
[16:06] <BluesKaj> 15.04 is EOL
[16:06] <sithlord48> no need to wair
[16:07] <sithlord48> wiat
[16:07] <sithlord48> we can upgrade to 16.04 today
[16:07] <AndrewM> Oh!
[16:07] <BluesKaj> yup
[16:07] <sithlord48> but first you need to upgrade to 15.10
[16:07] <AndrewM> Yeah, I'll go to 15.10 and then look at doing the partitions the way you mentioned...
[16:08] <sithlord48> i fyour gonna do that just stop now and dl the 16.04 iso
[16:08] <sithlord48> you are gonna need to do a fresh install anyway to re partition
[16:08] <sithlord48> well you don't have to but its easier
[16:09] <sithlord48> i suspose you could resize partitions and then change fix up the /etc/fstab afterwards
[16:09] <AndrewM> Yeah, I don't have a lot of time at the moment...  But  probably next week I can do that...
[16:10] <sithlord48> if you see me and you need help just say my name and ill get a notification
[16:10] <AndrewM> Thanks!  I really appreciate this.
[16:11] <sithlord48> your welcome . its good to help others you learn alot that way
[16:22] <AndrewM> I think this is the first time I've ever done a version upgrade in Kubuntu. I usually just put it off so long that I have no choice but to do a complete refresh install.
[16:32] <AndrewM> sithlord48: Interesting thing, so kded5 just popped up an error because it closed unexpectedly (so it was updated).  I can't close that popup because of that, and I can't put the focus back on the terminal window...  I can see the install is still going though...
[16:32] <AndrewM> But if it prompts me for anything, I'm not sure how I'll respond...
[16:35] <AndrewM> I can still SSH in though...
[16:37] <AndrewM> So if it hangs or prompts me and I can't respond, can I SSH in and safely kill the update process and start it again?
[16:41] <BluesKaj> update only lines up the packages that need upgrading, the upgrade command actually downloads and installs the packages, so one has to be specific about which stage of the proces is active
[16:41] <BluesKaj> AndrewM, ^
[16:42] <AndrewM> BluesKaj: Yeah, that's what I was thinking... So if it's stuck on a prompt, it isn't really doing anything, so it should be okay to end the process?
[16:43] <AndrewM> (It hasn't happened yet, I'm just wondering what to do if it happens...)
[16:45] <BluesKaj> we'll be here and that depends on what part of the installation, usually you'll have an error about dependencies or some such
[16:46] <AndrewM> Okay, thanks!
[16:47] <sithlord48> AndrewM:  was afk, can you alt+tab to the konsole window?
[16:48] <AndrewM> sithlord48: No, I can only move the mouse, keyboard seems not responsive...
[16:48] <sithlord48> ah
[16:48] <AndrewM> I can move the mouse but clicking doesn't move the focus from the pop-up back to the terminal window...
[16:49] <sithlord48> is it still going?
[16:49] <AndrewM> Yeah, it's still going...  At 53%...
[16:49] <AndrewM> Do you know if it prompts me at the end for something?
[16:49] <sithlord48> only if you have config questions.
[16:49] <AndrewM> I'm just thinking it may prompt me for something and I can't respond...
[16:50] <AndrewM> I can SSH in reboot or kill/restart the process...
[16:50] <AndrewM> to*
[16:50] <sithlord48> can you switch to a tty ? crtl+alt+F1?
[16:50] <BluesKaj> only if you have a script that changed some settings form the default etc
[16:51] <AndrewM> Oh, I did the Crtl+alt+F1 but now I'm 100% commandline...
[16:51] <sithlord48> :D
[16:51] <sithlord48> so your keyboard is working..
[16:51] <AndrewM> How do I get back?
[16:51] <sithlord48> crtl+alt+F7
[16:52] <AndrewM> Whew!
[16:52] <AndrewM> Yes, keyboard works. :)
[16:52] <sithlord48> so now no need to ssh if a question :D
[16:52] <AndrewM> It's just the the window focus is on the popup telling me KDE restarted and I can't switch it to the terminal.
[16:53] <AndrewM> Oh, true.
[16:53] <sithlord48> alt+tab
[16:53] <AndrewM> No, Alt+tab and the focus is still on the popup I can't close...
[16:54] <sithlord48> alt+f2 bring up krunner?
[16:54] <sithlord48> if so try kwin_x11 --replace
[16:54] <AndrewM> No... No krunner
[16:55] <sithlord48> you should be fine worst case we can restart the upgrade from a tty
[16:55] <AndrewM> sithlord48: Yeah, that's what I figured...  I figured that at a prompt it wouldn't actually be doing anything, so a kill/restart should hurt...
[16:55] <sithlord48> just login to the tty and do sudo reboot when the time comes..
[16:56] <AndrewM> Sounds good...
[17:14] <AndrewM> It's finished and it didn't prompt me for anything...  I'll tty and reboot...
[17:19] <AndrewM> It worked.  You guys are life-savers. Thank you, sithlord48 and BluesKaj!!!
[17:20] <sithlord48> sweet now wanna upgrade to 16.04 ???
[17:20] <AndrewM> hahahaha
[17:20] <sithlord48> if so try sudo do-release-upgrade -d
[17:20] <AndrewM> Next week, when I have more time...  I'm already behind on my work. :)
[17:20] <AndrewM> I'll make a note of that though.
[17:37]  * sick_rimmit Waves
[17:38]  * BluesKaj waves tat sick_rimmit
[17:38] <BluesKaj> to even
[18:31] <MichaelTunnell> are there any plans for Kubuntu to use Snappy for say 16.10?
[18:31] <MichaelTunnell> I would assume 16.04 would be no since they haven't even made a stable release of snappy but just curious about future releases
[18:32] <lordievader> I suppose if Ubuntu moves over to Snappy Kubuntu would eventually follow, but don't quote me on that.
[18:32] <lordievader> yofel might be able to tell you more about that.
[18:41] <ikonia> keep in mind kubuntu is splitting more and more from ubuntu
[18:42] <ikonia> eg the display server debate
[18:42] <ikonia> it's pretty much getting to be the base ubuntu debs, and thats it
[18:42] <ikonia> or even "the base ubuntu tool chain"
[18:43] <MichaelTunnell> yea I knew the mir vs wayland thing but so far Snappy looks pretty freaking cool :)
[18:43] <EvilRoey> is the idea with Snappy that apps might elect to use either their own rolled-up libs or the system's stock libs?
[18:43] <EvilRoey> that way they can use updated stock libraries as they get updated
[18:43] <EvilRoey> of course stuff looks like it could get incompatible pretty quickly
[18:44] <MichaelTunnell> EvilRoey: Snappy is they bypass most system libs and sometimes not even install some libs on teh core
[18:44] <EvilRoey> right
[18:44] <EvilRoey> so let's say a vulnerability gets patched in one of those libs
[18:44] <ikonia> snappy looks poor
[18:44] <MichaelTunnell> like for example X would be a system global lib that an app can use but GTK for example would be bundled in a snap
[18:44] <EvilRoey> does everyone have to wait till that program gets updated?
[18:44] <EvilRoey> before the vulnerbaility is patched?
[18:44] <MichaelTunnell> EvilRoey: the developer of the snap would have to update the snap
[18:45] <EvilRoey> yeah there we go
[18:45] <EvilRoey> instead of using standard libs
[18:45] <EvilRoey> standard shared libs, rather.
[18:45] <EvilRoey> MichaelTunnell:  so how has Canonicle proposed to solve this?
[18:45] <MichaelTunnell> yes, essentially. This is a pros vs cons debate.
[18:46] <MichaelTunnell> neither are correct methods
[18:46] <EvilRoey> see what I mean.. so if a lib that was traditionally a stock shared library has a hole discovered in it, allllll the programs that use it will have to get updated
[18:46] <EvilRoey> ok
[18:46] <ikonia> no they don't
[18:46] <EvilRoey> how so
[18:46] <EvilRoey> ?
[18:46] <ikonia> just the library with the problem does
[18:46] <EvilRoey> but programs ship as fat binaries so they have all the libraries rolled up together
[18:46] <MichaelTunnell> shared libs can result in code infecting an entire system. Snap method means that only that one snap would be infected.
[18:46] <ikonia> eg; when ssl was a problem, ssh didn't get an update, libssl did
[18:46] <EvilRoey> that's what my question about Snaps is.
[18:46] <MichaelTunnell> or vulnerable rather
[18:47] <EvilRoey> MichaelTunnell:  one snap.  Or more, depending on how many snap packages roll that library up
[18:47] <MichaelTunnell> EvilRoey: yes but the snaps are created via snapcraft and can be updated in seconds using YAML files. Changing the version of a snap would take seconds not months like getting stuff updated in a repo.
[18:48] <ikonia> no they can't
[18:48] <lordievader> I'd suppose applications will still be dynamically linked to libs.
[18:48] <ikonia> they still have to have the packages built into the snap
[18:48] <MichaelTunnell> lordievader: in some cases yes, in others no
[18:48] <ikonia> and it doesn't take months to get things into a repo
[18:48] <EvilRoey> there is this constant, /constant/ shift back and forth called the Wheel of Reincarnation, and it applies to integration/de-integration of components (GPUs moving into CPU dies, then off-boarded again to discrete video cards),
[18:48] <MichaelTunnell> lordievader: kind of a hybrid
[18:48] <ikonia> verifying the bug takes the time
[18:48] <ikonia> and testing
[18:48] <ikonia> that would still need to happen with snappy
[18:49] <EvilRoey> and it's also present with virtualization (say, from the idea of virtualizing an entire system with VMWare to now virtualizing only some things but keeping everything on the same kernel, as with containers)
[18:49] <EvilRoey> and there are always movements in both directions
[18:49] <EvilRoey> with everything
[18:49] <MichaelTunnell> ikonia: I was not referring to bugs with the month thing but any kind of app update. They all takes just a few seconds. Change the value of a parameter in a YAML file and new snap is made and pushed out to users.
[18:50] <EvilRoey> so I see this pattern too with shared libraries, .debs and now snaps
[18:50] <ikonia> errr no
[18:50] <ikonia> the fix would still need to be made that the snap is made from
[18:50] <ikonia> the yaml just determains what software is built into the snap
[18:50] <ikonia> you don't patch a library in the snap by changing the yaml
[18:50] <ikonia> the library still needs to be updated
[18:50] <ikonia> and it doesn't take months to get things into a repo
[18:50] <ikonia> it takes months to do the process of certain bug types
[18:50] <MichaelTunnell> ikonia: I am not talking about how a bug is fixed . . . I am talking about how a snap would be updated to get said fix.
[18:51] <ikonia> MichaelTunnell: it would be no quicker than a deb being updated
[18:51] <ikonia> ifact probably slower on paper
[18:51] <ikonia> as the fix would need to be built then built into a snap then the snap distributed
[18:51] <ikonia> where as the fix would be in the deb and pushed into the repos
[18:51] <MichaelTunnell> ikonia: for security bugs yes but for regular updates yea much faster
[18:51] <ikonia> no
[18:51] <ikonia> exactly the same
[18:52] <MichaelTunnell> not talking about the format vs format but the infrastructure.
[18:52] <ikonia> no different
[18:53] <MichaelTunnell> I disagree but alright. Impasse it is. :)
[18:53] <ikonia> how is it different
[18:55]  * BluesKaj sees pissholes in the snow written in yaml :-)
[18:58] <MichaelTunnell> lets take a basic app, not related to security holes. App-A wants to make an update to their app in Ubuntu's Repo. They have a 6 month window to get it submitted, tested, approved in order to get it in the repo for a particular Ubuntu release.
[18:58] <MichaelTunnell> and thats not a new app added to the repo . . . that's basic version updating.
[18:59] <MichaelTunnell> with Snappy I go into the YAML file and tell it what is different, tell snapcraft to use that file and the source to create a new snap and bam. I'm done. It's available to users.
[19:00] <lordievader> Err, without any testing?
[19:00] <MichaelTunnell> lordievader: this is not a "anyone can push code" thing.
[19:00] <MichaelTunnell> there would be testing by the dev and there is automated testing in Snappy
[19:01] <lordievader> That doesn't mean it doesn't need testing.
[19:01] <lordievader> Hmm /me is not convinced.
[19:02] <ikonia> MichaelTunnell: no you don't
[19:02] <ikonia> MichaelTunnell: what you've just said is not true
[19:02] <ikonia> 6 months window to get it submitted ?
[19:03] <MichaelTunnell> yes because they rarely if ever do backports for non"blessed apps.
[19:03] <ikonia> they do back ports when there is a bug and reason
[19:03] <MichaelTunnell> exactly
[19:04] <ikonia> ???
[19:04] <MichaelTunnell> hence the 6 months window. If I have a new version that works in 14.04 and I want to push it to the users in January 2015, that's impossible unless it is a significant usability bug.
[19:05] <ikonia> what ???
[19:05] <ikonia> people are not going to be bumping versions in snappy every 5 minutes
[19:05] <ikonia> they don't bump versions because they can't they don't bump version numbers without a reason because of the policy
[19:05] <ikonia> snappy won't change that policy
[19:06] <MichaelTunnell> OwnCloud tells people to never install the repo version of their app. This 6 month window structure is exactly why they say that.
[19:06] <ikonia> snappy won't change that
[19:06] <ikonia> as again - ubuntu won't just start bumping version numbers
[19:06] <ikonia> they can bump version numbers just fine with debs - they don't because of hte policy
[19:06] <ikonia> snappy won't change that policy
[19:07] <MichaelTunnell> they wont be bumping version numbers because the same snap will work in 16.04 and 16.10
[19:07] <ikonia> what ?
[19:07] <MichaelTunnell> you are making declarative statements of what will and wont work yet you dont know about the structure to make those statements
[19:07] <ikonia> what are you talking about
[19:08] <MichaelTunnell> watch the Q&A they did this morning. I asked them about this and they said the same snap would work in both versions.
[19:08] <MichaelTunnell> so the 6 month window to getting app updates would be effective removed entirely
[19:08] <ikonia> ???
[19:08] <ikonia> what are you talking about this 6 month window
[19:09] <ikonia> that 6 month window is the change freeze
[19:09] <ikonia> they are not going to drop a change freeze ?
[19:09] <MichaelTunnell> the snaps bypass the freeze
[19:09] <ikonia> why ?
[19:09] <MichaelTunnell> the core would have the freeze still but the snaps won't have to deal with it anymore
[19:09] <MichaelTunnell> because it's not a good idea to have apps out of date for 2 years
[19:10] <ikonia> ????
[19:10] <ikonia> that's not their policy though
[19:10] <ikonia> if "its not a good idea" why are they not updating the debs
[19:10] <MichaelTunnell> that is how it has always been structured . . .regardless of policy.
[19:11]  * Pici blinks
[19:11] <ikonia> right - so why would snappy change that policy ?
[19:11] <MichaelTunnell> does Debian Stable release updates to debs for application updates? Nope. same thing with Ubuntu releases
[19:11] <ikonia> right, so why would they do this with snappy
[19:11] <MichaelTunnell> because people want apps that were made this year
[19:11] <ikonia> but thats nothing to do with snappy
[19:11] <MichaelTunnell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHO8j8uo5Z4
[19:12] <MichaelTunnell> enjoy
[19:12] <ikonia> they "could" update a deb but they don't because of policy
[19:12] <ikonia> so why would they update a snap
[19:12] <MichaelTunnell> because they aren't updating the snaps... devs control it
[19:12] <ikonia> I thought popey was the community manager
[19:12] <ikonia> developers control the debs though
[19:12] <MichaelTunnell> there are multiple community managers
[19:12] <Pici> App developers or
[19:13] <Pici> Ubuntu developers?
[19:13] <MichaelTunnell> App Devs control Snaps
[19:14] <ikonia> I'm not seeing the logic of how it's different
[19:14] <MichaelTunnell> Debs you wait for Ubuntu devs and maintainers to update your app.
[19:15] <MichaelTunnell> Snaps you update it yourself.
[19:15] <ikonia> so thats totally out of ubuntu's control then
[19:15] <ikonia> and you're basically pulling in from 3rd parties
[19:15] <ikonia> pretty much like PPA's
[19:15] <MichaelTunnell> except they are vetted unlike PPAs
[19:15] <MichaelTunnell> but effectively yes PPAs Improved
[19:19] <EvilRoey> this will lead to decentralization of packages for sure
[19:19] <EvilRoey> it's basically the same as PPAs
[19:19] <EvilRoey> ikonia:  agreed
[19:20] <EvilRoey> As an information security professional, I foresee that securing a snap system will be more difficult as a result
[19:20] <EvilRoey> securing and keeping secure *&
[19:20] <EvilRoey> *
[19:23] <MichaelTunnell> EvilRoey: Snaps are read only squashfs so security is addressed as well
[19:24] <EvilRoey> well I can see how it would be difficult to write to a read-only system but what about vulnerabilities getting discovered as the months roll by
[19:24] <MichaelTunnell> it's kind of like hybrid of AppImage, DMGs, PPAs, and Puppy's layer system
[19:25] <MichaelTunnell> EvilRoey: the snaps can be replaced very easily . . . it doesnt even require the entire snap to be reinstalled. It works transactionally so only the pieces that need replacing are replaced yet at the same time it has rollback structure as well.
[19:26] <EvilRoey> ok
[19:26] <EvilRoey> MichaelTunnell:  so patches to snaps can be replicated to all the installed packages that use that old snap code?
[19:28] <MichaelTunnell> as far as I understand it . . . which I admit I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Snaps wont use other snap code. Snaps are essentially independent from each other.
[19:29] <MichaelTunnell> they are contained but not like containers as snaps have some exceptions like X
[19:35] <alf_> hi all, I'm running kubuntu with latest updates. with multi-clicking a window or anything fancy my kwin restarts
[19:35] <alf_> im using nvidia 650 with proprierty driver
[19:36] <alf_> any thoughts on when it will be fixed? (btw i had same problem on another distro running plasma)
[19:37] <Smurphy> alf_: Ask NVidia to get it fixed, or use the opensource drives if they work.
[19:40] <ankit> hi
[21:06] <funkyjive> hey guys ... I am looking to configure a second IP address for my server and I know you normally do that through the /etc/network/interfaces (or at least that used to be the place)  ... but I attempted to do that but it told me that em1 was not a recognized interface
[21:06] <funkyjive> even though em1 shows up in ifconfig
[21:07] <funkyjive> using advice similar to this: http://askubuntu.com/questions/547289/how-can-i-from-cli-assign-multiple-ip-addresses-to-one-interface
[21:08] <funkyjive> the only thing in that file when I started was this:
[21:08] <funkyjive> auto lo
[21:08] <funkyjive> iface lo inet loopback
[21:08] <funkyjive> but em1 is clearly initialized and functioning on my system.
[21:08] <funkyjive> so I don't know where the magic is happening.
[21:19] <ildefonso> funkyjive, most likely network-manager or similar process is handling that interface.
[21:19] <funkyjive> ildefonso: I just figured that out.
[21:19] <funkyjive> I am going to purge it
[21:19] <funkyjive> but is em1 still my interface or does it go back to eth0 like it used to be?
[21:20] <funkyjive> I think you need a kernel parameter for that, I think.
[21:21] <ildefonso> don't remember, I think it is udev who renames the interface.
[21:21] <ildefonso> check your udev rules.
[21:25] <funkyjive> I think that worked.
[21:26] <funkyjive> with nework manager gone where is the rest of the network configuration?   for instance, my system still knows the default gateway but I'd like to change it
[21:31] <ildefonso> funkyjive, /etc/network/interfaces, but routing tables are static, so, if you just killed network-manager, it is possible that all the info is still there.
[21:31] <ildefonso> after reconfiguring a system, specially if you have console access, you should do a final reboot test, to be sure everything comes up as you intend when (in the future) you have to restart the server.
[21:32] <ildefonso> also, maybe, there is a dhclient process still running.
[21:33] <funkyjive> I think I need to do that
[21:33] <funkyjive> I think you are right.
[21:33] <funkyjive> there is a dhclient running ... I better try a reboot.
[21:34] <ildefonso> kill the dhclient
[21:34] <ildefonso> kill PIDNumber
[21:34] <ildefonso> funkyjive, you *do* have console access, right?
[21:34] <ildefonso> after you kill dhclient, you will likely lose network connectivity to/from that machine.
[21:34] <funkyjive> yeah
[21:34] <funkyjive> yeah I am using the machine.
[21:34] <funkyjive> :)
[21:35] <funkyjive> that's why I lost connectivity earlier.
[21:35] <funkyjive> I'll give it a go.
[21:35] <funkyjive> I was looking at this:
[21:35] <funkyjive> http://askubuntu.com/questions/130452/how-do-i-add-a-dns-server-via-resolv-conf
[21:35] <ildefonso> worst case, you can manually bring it back up with "dhclient interface"
[21:35] <ildefonso> it will launch dhclient and configure the specified interface using dhcp.
[21:35] <ildefonso> but, in general, you want to correctly set /etc/network/interfaces
[21:36] <ildefonso> and do a "ifup em1" or whatever the interface name.
[21:36] <funkyjive> if I have multiple IP addresses, can I have a dns-nameserver set for each of them?
[21:36] <ildefonso> you don't need it
[21:36] <ildefonso> just set it for the main interface, say, eth0
[21:36] <ildefonso> your additional interfaces would be something like: eth0:0, eth0:1, eth0:2 and so on.
[21:36] <funkyjive> right, I have a local nameserver ... I have a VM that runs pfsense for my network
[21:37] <funkyjive> and it serves as a name server but also a request forwarder
[21:37] <funkyjive> but I want my system to be able to resolve names if that VM is down.
[21:39] <ildefonso> you want more than one nameserver added then
[21:39] <funkyjive> right.
[21:39] <ildefonso> most systems use two or three DNS servers.
[21:39] <funkyjive> 	dns-nameservers 192.168.0.1 8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4
[21:39] <ildefonso> and it has become widespread to use 8.8.8.8
[21:39] <ildefonso> exactly :P
[21:39] <funkyjive> I f I put that in interfaces
[21:39] <funkyjive> and 192.168.0.1 is down, it should fallback to 8.8.8.8
[21:40] <funkyjive> but if 192.168.0.1 is up will it always use it in that preference order?
[21:40] <genii> It uses them in the order they appear
[21:41] <funkyjive> so if 192.168.0.1 is down, and it switches to 8.8.8.8 .... and then I bring up 192.168.0.1   -- will it automatically detect that and start preferring it?
[21:41] <genii> Yep
[21:41] <funkyjive> I say this because 192.168.0.1 has the capacity to resolve names for my local network.
[21:41] <funkyjive> cool.
[21:41] <funkyjive> I am going to give this a go.
[21:41] <funkyjive> thanks guys.
[21:41] <funkyjive> I will likely lose connectivity :)
[21:41] <funkyjive> I think I am configured the way I need.
[21:42] <funkyjive> but need a reboot to know for sure.
[21:47] <ildefonso> great!
[22:13] <funkyjive> that worked basically perfectly.
[22:47] <funkyjive> are /dev /proc /run and /sys all in memory kernel file systems?
[23:01] <ildefonso> funkyjive, usually yes.
[23:01] <funkyjive> ildefonso:  I am looking to move a software raid0 / to a new nvme
[23:02] <ildefonso> nvme?
[23:02] <funkyjive> I have all the partitions and the data copied now
[23:02] <funkyjive> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Series-512GB-PCIe-NVMe/dp/B01639694M
[23:02] <funkyjive> non volatile ram
[23:02] <funkyjive> it is an SSD drive that plugs into a PCI express slot
[23:02] <ildefonso> ah
[23:03] <funkyjive> I had 2 SATA3 ssds in a raid0, but now I have one of these things.
[23:03] <funkyjive> and it is more than twice the speed (according to hdparm -Tt)
[23:03] <ildefonso> raid0 is like multiplying by N  your failure probability :P
[23:04] <ildefonso> afk for a while
[23:04] <funkyjive> right
[23:04] <funkyjive> I am just looking to do the right things to make the new partition bootable and stuff.