[05:52] <Tm_T> hello everyone
[05:52] <Tm_T> how are we on this fine thursday morning?
[05:58] <Unit193> Silly Tm_T, it's nearly 2am, it's night.
[05:59] <Tm_T> Unit193: is it? that explains a lot
[06:00] <valorie> dark here as well
[06:00] <valorie> :-)
[06:01] <valorie> but good $timeofday to you, Tm_T
[06:01] <Tm_T> thursdays ♥
[06:02] <Tm_T> it's been snowing here, spring clearly
[06:03] <valorie> we had a week of warm & sunny, lots of rain yesterday
[06:03] <valorie> weeds are soooo happy
[06:09] <valorie> what the heck, freenode
[06:19] <Myrtti> sorry!
[06:22] <elky> what blew up today?
[06:23] <dax> the internet
[06:26] <valorie> Myrtti: you broke freenode?
[06:43] <Myrtti> nope, but I feel responsible to say sorry, because I'm staff
[06:43] <valorie> ha
[07:49] <Flannel> It's OK Myrtti, you can admit that you broke freenode.
[08:02] <Myrtti> ;____;
[15:01] <srg2> Spam on the Ubuntu Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gmail at the top.
[15:02] <Pici> srg2: thanks, we'll notify someone
[15:02] <srg2> np
[15:05] <Myrtti> I reverted it but it's still on the history
[15:09] <Myrtti> "150927 < lotuspsychje> Myrtti: i dont feel like hunting and editing wiki's myself"
[15:09] <Myrtti> "thanks"
[15:12] <Pici> Myrtti: thanks :)
[15:13] <Pici> I'm stuck in a meeting here... and trying to actually pay attention :)
[19:15] <Pici> we probably should get a handle on how snap support will work in #ubuntu come 16.04
[19:16] <Pici> ikonia: ^
[19:16] <ikonia> it looks worrying if what that chap is saying is correct
[19:29] <Unit193> Hmm?
[19:34] <Pici> I read that as "Ham?"  I think I'm still hungry from not having dinner last night.
[20:02] <popey> ikonia: that chap?
[20:02] <Pici> popey: MichaelTunnell in #kubuntu
[20:02] <popey> oh, not in there
[20:03]  * popey looks for logs
[20:03] <popey> got it
[20:05] <popey> ok, read http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/04/14/%23kubuntu.html
[20:05] <popey> he's basically right
[20:06] <popey> snappy dramatically speeds up the turnaround time for getting updates to users
[20:06] <popey> (only read up to 19:06)
[20:07] <Pici> Is the approval process just a lintian-like test?
[20:08] <popey> It's a few things that speed things up
[20:08] <popey> The fact that you can bundle your own libs for one.
[20:08] <popey> So libfoo1.0 is in the archive, and myapp1.0 depends on it tightly in wily
[20:09] <popey> if I (as developer of myapp) want to update myapp to 2.0 with lots of shiny features, and a new dependency on libfoo 2.0, I'm somewhat knackered
[20:09] <popey> wily users will never see myapp 2.0, unless I put it in a ppa, which is no good for discovery
[20:09] <Pici> Right, I read through some of the docs on dev.u.c, that part seemed self-explanatory.
[20:10] <popey> however, in xenial, if I ship myapp1.0 with libfoo1.0 in a snap, then I can update myapp and libfoo together at once
[20:10] <popey> so rather than users of myapp1.0 having to wait up to six months (or 2 years for lts users), I can get it to them super fast
[20:10] <popey> even multiple updates a day if I wanted.
[20:10] <Unit193> Pici: It's just the phone store, but open to desktop users too, basically.  This replaces extras.ubuntu.com, specifically.
[20:11] <Pici> So basically we're trading disk space and bandwidth for package flexability?
[20:12] <popey> To some degree
[20:12] <Pici> I know theres a lot more to it than that ;)
[20:12] <popey>  😃
[20:18] <ikonia> popey: where is the components of the snap coming from
[20:19] <popey> depends on the snap
[20:19] <popey> could be built from myapp.deb, or come from github.com/myapp.git or a tarball on my hard disk
[20:19] <ikonia> so basically anything you want
[20:19] <popey> could be made of many debs or many github branches
[20:19] <popey> yes
[20:20] <ikonia> I'll have to see how this pans out in practice, I don't like the concept
[20:20] <ikonia> but the reality could be quiet different
[20:20] <ikonia> quite too
[20:20] <popey> Which part are you uneasy about?
[20:20] <Unit193> It seemed sane to me to support the core infra for it (snapd), but leave specific application support to whoever created it.  No?
[20:20] <ikonia> pulling from anything
[20:20] <ikonia> by anyone
[20:20] <popey> that's already the case with PPAs
[20:21] <popey> which I know you're not a fan of :)
[20:21] <ikonia> it's basically the managed version of people doing ./configure && make && make install
[20:21] <popey> yes and no
[20:21] <ikonia> I actually am I a fan of the concept, and the well done PPA's
[20:21] <ikonia> I'm not a fan of letting anyone put anything up for anyone
[20:21] <popey> make install (or rather sudo make install) can be quite a problem
[20:21] <popey> snaps are confined
[20:22] <popey> It's pretty analagous (sp?) to the Android play store, iOS store, .. etc
[20:22] <ikonia> it's basically the puppet SFS approach, but more mature
[20:22] <ikonia> lets see how it works in reality,
[20:22] <popey> they all empower developers to ship their own stuff without distros getting in the way
[20:22] <popey> yeah
[20:22] <popey> it's early days
[20:22] <ikonia> thats half the problem
[20:22] <ikonia> developers focus on "their" little component
[20:22] <ikonia> distros pull it together as a working complete setup
[20:22] <popey> Why's that a problem?
[20:23] <popey> But only because they have to
[20:23] <ikonia> no they don't
[20:23] <popey> distros have to work hard to integrate these things
[20:23] <ikonia> they could make (for example) a great PPA
[20:23] <ikonia> that would be sane and no impact
[20:23] <popey> no, *they* in my mind was distros
[20:23] <popey> not developers
[20:23] <ikonia> distros do have to work hard, thats why we trust them
[20:23] <popey> we shouldn't
[20:23] <ikonia> they put in the effort to integrate, test and build
[20:23] <ikonia> I think you should
[20:23] <popey> debs have root on your computer
[20:23] <popey> that's scary
[20:24] <popey> no guarantee they were code reviewed
[20:24] <ikonia> not really
[20:24] <ikonia> as I trust where they come from
[20:24] <popey> then you're mad
[20:24] <ikonia> not at all
[20:24] <Pici> I'm interested in seeing to see what happens when some popular library needs a security update and happens to be in a bunch of snappy packags too.
[20:24]  * dax ponders chromium bundling libraries in its source archives and distros having to (or not bothering to) strip them out and use system libraries
[20:24]  * dax ponders owncloud in general
[20:24] <popey> yeah, lets say libssl needs updating
[20:24] <Unit193> Pici: In the future, they'll have library snaps too. :P
[20:24] <popey> and there's 20+ apps built against it
[20:24] <Pici> right
[20:25] <popey> The question is, so what?
[20:25] <popey> The developer doesn't update their app? They look bad
[20:25] <Pici> So its up to the devs to push new packages?
[20:25] <popey> Time for developers to take ownership of their code.
[20:25] <popey> yes.
[20:25] <Pici> hrm... not sure I like that. but okay.
[20:25] <popey> not rely on distros fixing it for them
[20:25] <Unit193> popey: BTW, have you looked at the packaging process in Debian?
[20:25] <ikonia> no, not for me
[20:25] <ikonia> but lets see the reality of the implementation
[20:25] <popey> Unit193: sure