[08:12] <mcphail> On 16.04 desktop, can snaps only be installed locally (using "snap install blah") rather than from the store (using "snappy install blah")?
[08:15]  * mcphail wants a neat way to install kyrofa's owncloud snap
[13:53] <thomas25> Hi
[13:53] <thomas25> I download a snappy image from here http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/all-snaps/
[13:54] <thomas25> But i'm a little stuck then.
[13:54] <thomas25> I would like to clone snapcraft repo
[13:54] <thomas25> However I need git
[13:55] <thomas25> Since I can't use apt-get install and "snap find" has a limited number of snaps I'm not sure how I can do anything.
[13:55] <thomas25> maybe i missed something ?
[13:56] <oparoz> thomas25, see if you can enable classic mode
[13:56] <oparoz> that gives you a shell with access to standard tools
[13:57] <thomas25> So today I can't have a minimum ubuntu core 'working' ?
[13:58] <thomas25> With read only partition and no use of apt-get.
[14:06] <ali1234> thomas25: such a thing wouldn't make any sense... how you going to use git when it is sandboxed?
[14:06] <ali1234> classic mode exists specifically for doing development because you can't do development when each of your tools is in it's own sandbox
[14:07] <ali1234> i could be wrong but i think classic mode is more or less just a snap that has everything (via apt) inside one sandbox
[14:08] <thomas25> ali1234: That makes sense ^^. Thank you
[14:09] <thomas25> How do you enter classic mode ?
[14:11] <thomas25> I'm not sure my image give me that possibility.
[14:11] <ali1234> not sure
[14:11] <oparoz> snappy enable-classic
[14:12] <ali1234> let me read my logs
[14:12] <oparoz> if that still works, then you can do snappy shell classic
[14:13] <thomas25> No binary "snappy" only "snap" on my image, and no such option as described here https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy-dev-website/blob/master/src/versioned/guides-and-reference/release/build-apps/setup.md
[14:14] <oparoz> try with snap then?
[14:14] <oparoz> It's been renamed
[14:14] <ali1234> looks like the old classic mode was removed
[14:15] <ali1234> will be replaced by an actual snap one day?
[14:16] <thomas25> So for now, no "developer mode" ?
[14:16] <ali1234> yeah looks like it
[14:17] <ali1234> seems like classic-mode wasn't actually a snap, it used most of the same tech but could not be updated like one
[14:17] <oparoz> Well it depends, if it's for a personal project, you can use older images
[14:18] <ali1234> so i guess they want to turn it into a proper snap
[14:18] <oparoz> the images in the obsolete folder still have classic
[14:18] <thomas25> oparoz: Yeah it is just to understand and discover snappy.
[14:19] <thomas25> oparoz: ok thanks, i'll try it then.
[14:19] <oparoz> thomas25, use the old images then, but other things have also changed, such as how to set up policies
[14:19] <ali1234> the older images have different problems though
[14:23] <thomas25> Do you know if an alpha release or something is planned ?
[14:23] <ali1234> i dont see anything on the mailing list about it
[14:23] <oparoz> They're hard at work trying to release something, yes
[14:24] <oparoz> Best to come during business hours to get some answers I think
[14:24] <thomas25> yeah probably ^^
[14:25] <thomas25> I will see next week. Thanks for the replies.
[14:25] <oparoz> 👍
[15:01] <thomas25> An other question, how the configuration file are handled ?
[15:02] <thomas25> If it is in the snap it would be read only.
[15:02] <thomas25> So how to modify it ?
[15:19] <thomas25> I heard about hard link however I tried the "mosquitto" snap present in the snapcraft repository, but it seems there are no writable file available for "mosquitto.conf".
[15:49] <ovalseven8> Hello - heard of the new "Snap package". Which packages are available? Is there an official Ubuntu repository?
[15:50] <thomas25> If you just want to test the snap packages, you should try the ubuntu 16.04 lts but there are not a lot of packages by default however.
[15:51] <thomas25> But you can build some with snapcraft.
[15:51] <ovalseven8> thomas25: Yes. My question is - which packages can you install by default? Will there come new packages or how does it work
[15:52] <ovalseven8> If I create a snap for a software, how can I make it that normal people can install it on 16.04?
[15:55] <thomas25> Using "snap find" you have 14 snaps available
[15:55] <thomas25> Like "ubuntu-clock-app"
[15:56] <ovalseven8> thomas25: Yes, but how can I add new snap software?
[15:56] <thomas25> There is a store where you can probably find more package (you need authentication)
[15:56] <thomas25> But not sure , I never tried
[15:57] <thomas25> But I don't know when more package will be added to the 'default' ones
[15:58] <thomas25> See https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/tree/master/examples
[15:59] <thomas25> You can build snap using these examples
[15:59] <thomas25> It is very easy
[15:59] <thomas25> Just run "snapcraft" in "webchat" for example
[16:00] <thomas25> Then "snap install" will do the job.
[16:00] <ovalseven8> thomas25: I am just curious how the distribution of snap software will work
[16:00] <ovalseven8> Who decides which snap apps will be available by default and so on
[16:02] <thomas25> If your asking if canonical will check every snap I don't know.
[16:02] <thomas25> Since it is "contained" I don't think so
[16:02] <thomas25> But I really don't know.
[16:03] <ovalseven8> thomas25: I see, thanks anyway!
[16:04] <thomas25> Come asking again Monday you will probably have more and better answers
[16:08] <daker> ovalseven8: a snap is checked via automated checks once you upload it to the store
[16:08] <ovalseven8> daker: Do you have a link to the store?
[16:08] <daker> some checks needs manuals checking
[16:09] <daker> https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/
[16:09] <ovalseven8> daker: And everybody with 16.04 installed will have access to the uploaded packages?
[16:10] <daker> ovalseven8: yes
[16:10] <daker> approved packages
[16:12] <thomas25> daker: Do you know what kind of tests are performed ?
[16:14] <daker> thomas25: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~click-reviewers/click-reviewers-tools/trunk/files/head:/clickreviews/
[16:15] <thomas25> daker: Thanks
[16:17] <thomas25> daker: Do you know how configuration files are handled ?
[16:19] <ovalseven8> What about snap security? Is there an automatic check if they are signed or how will be checked that everything that is downloaded (for example github) is ok?
[16:25] <daker> ovalseven8: i guess snappy takes care of that
[16:28] <daker> ovalseven8: https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy/blob/master/store/snap_remote_repo.go#L53
[16:29] <ovalseven8> daker: Mh, I don't really understand
[16:30] <daker> the store provides the checksum of the snap you uploaded, then snappy performs a checksum of the downloaded snap somewhere in the code to compare if nothing happened
[16:32] <ovalseven8> daker: But I don't see the point. If I can manipulate the download, I can also manipulate the checksum check, no?
[16:39] <daker> ovalseven8: maybe try to make a POC for that :)
[16:40] <ovalseven8> Snap packages seems to be interesting. But I guess I will deal with it when more time is passed and I have more time
[16:41] <ovalseven8> It will be very time consuming if you deal with it the very first time, I guess
[16:41] <ovalseven8> Additionally, there will be more documentation in the future, I hope. At the moment, there is not too much info
[16:44] <ogra_> As long as you use snapcraft, the lerning curve is pretty low imho
[16:45] <ovalseven8> ogra_: There is only snapcraft?
[16:46] <ogra_> That is what you should use, yeah
[16:47] <ogra_> Packaging means to create a single yaml file once... The rest is done fully automatic
[16:48] <ovalseven8> ogra_: The .snap package contains the binary, right?
[16:49] <ogra_> A snap package is a readonly squashfs file that contains all binaries of your project, yes
[16:50] <daker> ogra_: hi, did you have chance to work on the wifi firmware for the rpi ?
[16:50] <ovalseven8> ogra_: So, everythign will be statically linked, right?
[16:51] <ogra_> daker, nope, had to do some disaster recovery on release day
[16:51] <ogra_> ovalsend, no, why would it ?
[16:52] <daker> ogra_: it doesn't work on the rpi3 too ?
[16:52] <ogra_> you indeed *can* statically link if you feel like... Up to you... by defaukt snapcraft just pulls deb packages from the archive for the defined dependencies.
[16:53] <ogra_> (and puts them inside your snap)
[16:53] <ovalseven8> ogra_: I don't understand the concept completely yet, sorry
[16:53] <ogra_> daker too ?
[16:54] <daker> i mean the wifi :)
[16:54] <ogra_> there is no wifi on the pi2 ;)
[16:55] <ogra_> the pi3 firmware will be added with an SRU and eventually end up in the kernel snap
[16:55] <daker> ogra_: i use the wifi dongle but it's didn't managed to get it detected
[16:55] <daker> a*
[16:56] <daker> i see you were talking about the pi3 when speaking about the firmware
[16:56] <ogra_> Well, we install the normal linux-firmware package
[16:57] <ogra_> and the sub drivers should all be enabled
[16:57] <ogra_> usb
[16:57] <daker> the same wifi dongle works with raspibian and other distros
[16:58] <ogra_> I.e. it should not work any different from any Ubuntu desktop install
[16:58] <ogra_> if it works on desktop but not on the pi2 thats a snappy bug indeed, else just an Ubuntu one..
[16:59] <daker> it works on Ubuntu
[16:59] <ogra_> Well, then file a bug please
[17:00] <ogra_> (I know that raspbian patches a lot of non free ralink stuff into their kernel, so thats not really a metric)
[17:01] <ogra_> ... but if it works on desktop thats clearly a bug
[17:01] <daker> Bus 002 Device 004: ID 148f:2070 Ralink Technology, Corp. RT2070 Wireless Adapter
[17:05] <ogra_> and you are sure that works on desktop ?
[17:05] <ogra_> (the ralink statically devices are definitely shaky without the driver from the ralink site)
[17:06] <ogra_> s/statically/sta/
[17:06] <ogra_> (silly autocompletion on the tablet)
[17:10] <daker> ogra_: well it gets the wifi networks
[17:13] <daker> well it works
[17:16] <daker> it connects to the wifi but i am seeing timeouts
[17:17] <daker> ieee80211 phy1: rt2800usb_entry_txstatus_timeout: Warning - TX status timeout for entry 7 in queue 2
[17:35] <ovalseven8> Hi again. Question: A statically linked .snap package makes sense but I don't see a reason for dynamically linked binaries
[17:36] <ovalseven8> The advantage of dynamic linking is less disk space. But because snap distributes every single dependency, this is not an advantage anymore
[17:36] <ogra_> daker, yeah thats what I mean, the in-kernel driver usually isn't stable
[17:36] <ovalseven8> Can someone explain me, please?
[17:37] <mcphail> ovalseven8: it is usually easier to create dynamically linked apps, particularly if you're just pulling pre-built dependencies
[17:37] <ogra_> you can use statically linked libs if you feel like
[17:37] <ogra_> but as daker said... It is easier to just use existing binaries
[17:40] <ogra_> err... *as mcphail said... Sorry
[17:41] <daker> :D
[17:41] <ovalseven8> Which dependencies have I add to? Even packages that are installed on Ubuntu by default?
[17:41] <ogra_> Whatever your binary needs
[17:42] <ovalseven8> And if a dependency will change (security update), will I have to upload the new .snap package?
[17:42]  * ogra_ would suggest to just install snapcraft and the snapcraft-examples packages and play with the examples
[17:42] <ogra_> yes
[17:43] <ovalseven8> Oh my god. So, a program with Qt5 and such dependencies will need an update very often
[17:44] <ogra_> as often as the packages in the archive get security updates
[17:44] <ogra_> for qt thats probably rather rare
[17:46] <ogra_> (and if your app is confined some security issues are actually irrelevant, really depends what issues get fixed
[17:46] <ogra_> )
[17:46] <ogra_> (and how your app is run)
[17:48] <ali1234> ogra_: what's the deal with classic mode on 16.04? is it planned to convert it into a normal snap?
[17:49] <ogra_> I don't think so
[17:49] <ali1234> so it's just gone forever?
[17:49] <ogra_> nah
[17:49] <ovalseven8> I mean, creating a .snap for a big gui desktop application will be very complicated
[17:49] <ogra_> only temporary... Like snap config
[17:50] <ali1234> why can't it be implemented as a normal snap btw?
[17:50] <ogra_> ovalseven8, well, fir fox will most likely switch completely to snap
[17:50] <ogra_> *firefox
[17:51] <ogra_> ali1234, because yo want everything o be rw
[17:51] <ali1234> okay but snaps must support rw to some extent. like what if i make a ftp server where people can upload things... you want that to be rw too
[17:52] <ogra_> The point of classic is to have a rw playground for apt... shipping that as ro squashfs makes no sense
[17:52] <ovalseven8> Unfortunately, the examples for snapcraft on GitHub are just very easy programs :/
[17:53] <ali1234> it would make more sense on a filesystem that supports snapshots
[17:53] <ali1234> hmm SNAPshots
[17:53] <ogra_> snaps have a rw dir... Installing an apt chroot/container would mean to copy the whole ro snap into the rw dir
[17:53] <ogra_> that would be totally wasteful
[17:54] <ogra_> what we really only want is to have the container ship the bits we removed...as rw overlay
[17:55] <ali1234> yes.. overlay filesystem backed by a ro snapshot
[17:55] <ogra_> not over rlay fs
[17:55] <ovalseven8> The snapcraft docs are poor at the moment
[17:55] <ali1234> no, overlayfs sucks
[17:55] <ali1234> but maybe btrfs
[17:55] <ogra_> Nah
[17:56] <ali1234> zfs?
[17:56] <thomas25> probably
[17:56] <ogra_> btrfs sucks even most more :p
[17:56] <ogra_> -most
[17:56] <ogra_> silly autocomplete
[17:56] <ogra_> zfs on embedded ?
[17:56] <ali1234> sure why not
[17:57] <thomas25> Canonical is targeting "big" embedded device
[17:57] <ali1234> embedded is meaningless when you talk about running ubuntu on it, it's already many times bigger than a real embedded system
[17:57] <ogra_> dunno, I wouldn't want to give half my ram to a feature that I can also get cheaper in other ways
[17:57] <ogra_> snappy is focused on embedded
[17:57] <ogra_> it is designed for it
[17:58] <daker> ogra_: Sagem XG-76NA 802.11bg doesn't work on snappy :/
[17:58] <ogra_> daker but on desktop ?
[18:00] <ovalseven8> Am I right that I have to add parts step by step in snapcraft? So, compile part1 that is needed for part2 and so on?
[18:00] <thomas25> About zfs/ubuntu http://news.softpedia.com/news/canonical-is-delighted-to-collaborate-with-nexenta-on-optimizing-zfs-for-ubuntu-502806.shtml
[18:00] <daker> it works
[18:00] <ogra_> daker, file bugs :)
[18:00] <daker> ogra_: against what ?
[18:01] <ogra_> ovalseven8 NT necessarily
[18:01] <ogra_> not
[18:01] <ogra_> daker see topic ;)
[18:01] <daker> ok
[18:02] <ogra_> feel free to assign to me, I'll get it in the right hands then
[18:02] <ogra_> (if you can)
[18:03] <ogra_> ovalseven8, if you need an order you can define one, but I guests the majority of snaps don't need it
[18:03] <ogra_> guess
[18:17] <daker> ogra_: i can't assign it (bug 1574075)
[18:18] <ogra_> Thanks
[18:19] <ali1234> so how do i get started with snappy 2.0?
[18:20] <ogra_> easiest is to have a denial desktop install ;)
[18:20] <ogra_> xenial
[18:21] <ali1234> my app only runs on raspberry pi
[18:21] <ogra_> then you can grab an experimental image from mvos all-snaps dir
[18:21] <ali1234> is the partition expansion fixed?
[18:21] <ogra_> since ages :)
[18:22] <ali1234> okay. does it work on pi 3 yet?
[18:22] <ogra_> yep, but we don have a dedicated image yet
[18:22] <ali1234> what does that mean?
[18:22] <ali1234> why do you need a dedicated image if it works?
[18:23] <ogra_> that you nedd to build it yourself
[18:23] <ali1234> i see, so ubuntu-device-flash?
[18:23] <ogra_> Yes, the latest one from mvo
[18:23] <ogra_> with the canonical-pi3 gadget
[18:23] <ogra_> (from the store)
[18:24] <ali1234> the store?
[18:25] <ogra_> Yes
[18:28] <ali1234> what store?
[18:29] <ogra_> snap store.... Where u-d-f pulls its. Snaps
[18:30] <ali1234> expected a gadget snaps: snap not found
[18:31]  * ogra_ needs to rush out
[18:32] <ogra_> I guess your command is wrong then...
[18:32] <ali1234> i copied it from the shell script :)
[18:32] <ogra_> The options changed slightly
[18:32] <ali1234> make-rpi2-all-snap.sh
[18:32] <ogra_> series is 16 now instead of rolling
[18:32] <ogra_> No idea what that is
[18:32] <ali1234> okay it's doing something
[18:33] <ali1234> http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/all-snaps/make-rpi2-all-snap.sh
[18:33] <ogra_> Ah, never seen that
[18:33] <ogra_> anyway... Out
[18:43] <dduffey> I have a snappy 16 image I made last week.  Now when I boot with that image (even fresh) I'm not able to do a snappy search
[18:43] <dduffey> it says "no such command"
[18:43] <dduffey> sorry "Unknown command"
[18:46] <dduffey> wililupy, ^^^
[19:18] <ali1234> it's called snap now
[19:18] <ali1234> and snappy automatically updates itself
[19:31] <dduffey> ali1234, thanks, how do I snap install webdm?
[19:31] <ali1234> no idea
[19:32] <dduffey> even "snap install" says "Unkown command" install|search
[19:35] <ali1234> i haven't even managed to make an image that boots yet
[19:47] <ogra_> ali1234, whats the issue with booting ?
[19:48] <ogra_> (note that serial output is currently not available on pi2)
[19:48] <ogra_> will be fixed on monday
[19:49] <ali1234> i don't know what the issue is
[19:49] <ali1234> because it doesn't boot
[19:50] <ali1234> maybe i am trying the wrong ip address
[19:51] <ogra_> defintely boots here...
[19:51] <ogra_> on both pi's
[19:51] <ali1234> okay i am in
[19:51] <ogra_> good
[19:51] <ali1234> why is the led blinking constantly?
[19:52] <ogra_> heartbeat...
[19:52] <ali1234> they are backwards
[19:52] <ogra_> shows you the system is alive
[19:52] <ali1234> disk activity makes the power led blink
[19:52] <ali1234> heartbeat is on the disk activity led
[19:53] <ogra_> worth a bug I guess
[19:53] <ali1234> i actually asked the foundation developers if this was possible once and they said no
[19:57] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/snappy/+bug/1574103
[19:59] <ali1234> so now what? install snapcraft on my desktop?
[20:00] <ogra_> To build for arm ?
[20:00] <ogra_> No
[20:00] <ali1234> yes
[20:00] <ogra_> only native
[20:00] <ali1234> oh.
[20:01] <ali1234> what if i install ubuntu-mate on my other raspberry pi and then install snapcraft on that?
[20:02] <ogra_> scp an ubuntu-core (not snappy) tarball to the device and use it as chroot
[20:02] <ogra_> Yeah, mate works too indeed
[20:10] <ali1234>  /home = /wrtable/user-data?
[20:13] <ogra_> Kind of, yeah
[20:16] <ali1234> okay i chrooted. apt can't find snapcraft
[20:17] <ogra_> copied resolv.conf ?
[20:17] <ali1234> yes
[20:17] <ogra_> universe enabled ?
[20:17] <ali1234> no
[20:17] <ogra_> there you go
[20:21] <ali1234> debconf is unhappy because it cannot show a dialog
[20:29] <ogra_> It only tells you the frontend isn't installed, doesn't mean it would use it ;)
[20:30] <ali1234> okay i have a snapcraft.yaml
[20:32] <ali1234> it's downloading cmake stuff...
[20:34] <ali1234> it failed to build because no C++ compiler
[20:36] <ali1234> is it a problem that i am running snapcraft as root?
[20:38] <ali1234> okay it still didn't work because no pkg-config
[20:39] <ali1234> why do some snaps put build-packages in the top level, but others put it under parts:
[20:47] <ali1234> i wish debs would have consistent names
[20:47] <ali1234> why is it libgstreamer1.0-dev but libgstrtspserver-1.0-dev
[20:53] <ali1234> wow it actually attempted to compile a source file that time
[20:53] <ali1234> /root/piroverd/parts/daemon/src/i2cdevice.cpp:38:43: error: ‘ioctl’ was not declared in this scope
[20:53] <ali1234> seriously?
[20:58] <ali1234> how do i make snapcraft redownload the git repository after i made changes?
[20:59] <ali1234> i found the repo and pulled manually
[21:00] <ali1234> okay now i got /root/piroverd/parts/daemon/src/i2cdevice.cpp:54:58: error: ‘i2c_smbus_read_byte_data’ was not declared in this scope
[21:01] <ali1234> this is that thing where's there's two different versions of linux/i2c-dev.h
[21:06] <ali1234> finally it built
[21:06] <ali1234> now i get "make: *** No rule to make target 'install'.  Stop."
[21:09] <ali1234> this is what i've got so far http://paste.ubuntu.com/16015163/
[21:12] <ali1234> let's see if it can build gst-rpicamsrc
[21:13] <ali1234> configure: error: Raspberry Pi files not found in /opt/vc/include
[21:14] <ali1234> nope
[21:14] <ali1234> well, i give up
[21:15] <ali1234> all of my software uses the videocore libraries heavily
[21:18] <Domi> Hello, where do I get the latest builds for rpi 3?
[21:18] <ali1234> you have to build the image yourself for rpi3
[21:18] <ali1234> http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/all-snaps/ubuntu-device-flash
[21:19] <ali1234> then do something like this:
[21:19] <ali1234> sudo ./ubuntu-device-flash --verbose core 16 -o  rpi2-all-snap.img --channel stable --enable-ssh --gadget canonical-pi3  --kernel canonical-pi3-linux --os ubuntu-core
[21:20] <ali1234> except that doesn't work... snap not found
[21:21] <Domi> thank you. Is there any documentation on this?
[21:21] <ali1234> nope
[21:21] <ali1234> https://www.mail-archive.com/snappy-devel@lists.ubuntu.com/msg01307.html
[21:22] <ali1234> that looks out of date
[21:23] <ali1234> earlier ogra told me to use canonical-pi3 gadget
[21:23] <Domi> http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/snappy/all-snaps/rpi3/ what is with this images?
[21:23] <ali1234> i dunno
[21:23] <ali1234> earlier ogra told me there are no images :)
[21:23] <ali1234> i wouldn't trust that to actually work
[21:25] <Domi> ok is there anyone who is able to help me? Or can i ask someone?
[21:25] <ali1234> ogra :)
[21:25] <ali1234> but i think he's hiding
[21:26] <ali1234> i'd help you if i could, but i have abslutely no idea what i am doing
[21:27] <ali1234> this channel has more activity during european business hours
[21:46] <Domi> ok thank you for your help I will try it tomorrow.
[22:39] <oparoz> Is there a deb we can use to include extra dynamic linkers?
[22:39] <oparoz> I've got an arm binary using the wrong one and symlinking works, but that's not possible in Snappy