[03:29] <OvenWerks> Anyone else having trouble with simplescan? Simple scan sees the scanner ok (knows it's name) hit scan and it sits spinning forever till killed.
[03:33] <OvenWerks> hmm eventually says failed to scan - Unable to connect to scanner
[03:34] <OvenWerks> reboot to 14.04 and works fine.
[03:34]  * OvenWerks switches scanners
[03:42] <OvenWerks> Hmm, the HP works... but it sounds horrible! Both are combos  print/copy/scan (they come for free after the owner runs out of ink a few times :)
[03:51] <OvenWerks> hmm, this page: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/04/ubuntu-16-04-download-new-features has a comment about it.
[03:51] <OvenWerks> "More concerning is the loss of LSB. I know this is a Debian upstream issue, but it's huge. You now can't print to or scan from an Epson printer"
[03:52] <OvenWerks> So i guess I plug the epson back in and BUG it. I do have 2 LSB packages in, so I am not sure if that is the real issue.
[08:22] <zequence> knome: Thanks for adding -documentation
[08:23] <zequence> So, now, all team members have wiki access. Good!
[08:27] <zequence> sakrecoer: I'm removing our contact email address from the front page from our website (though encoded, it just generates spam). Also going to create an rt ticket to have it removed all together
[08:28] <zequence> sakrecoer: If you want a generic contact email, I would suggest creating a new one, like official at ubuntustudio dot org, then using a contact form of some sort (addons for WP), so that bots can't send you mail
[08:37] <zequence> sakrecoer: Just create a ticket for it, whenever you want to set up a new redirect, at http://rt.ubuntu.com
[08:40] <cub> "If two applications do the same exact thing, only one of them should be included. " I think the point is "same exact thing". I would not compare Blender with video editing even though it's possible. In that way we could argue we shouldn't include any editors because you could do that through vi.
[09:14] <sakrecoer> cub: no body is comparing blender to a video editor, as far as i have red..
[09:14] <sakrecoer> zequence: ok :)
[09:21] <cub> sakrecoer I think some arguments have pointed in that direction.
[09:21] <sakrecoer> cub: were?
[09:21] <cub> But it was just one example
[09:22] <sakrecoer> where even :)
[09:23] <sakrecoer> cub: are you running a survey for definition on social media?
[09:23] <sakrecoer> gah.. *feature definition
[09:23] <cub> survey? Not that I know..:D
[09:24] <sakrecoer> ok, would be good to do that tho.. gather some ideas :)
[09:27] <sakrecoer> cub: i don't think anyone i've red on the list is reducing blender to a VSE, i haven't seen one suggestion it would be, that is why you make me curious :)
[09:27] <cub> No but that as Blender is capable of video editing. Actually you did. 
[09:28] <cub> "Atm we have 4 video sequencers: Blender, Kdenliv, Pitivi and openshots."
[09:28] <sakrecoer> cub: read on :)
[09:28] <cub> I know , as I said it is an example.
[09:29] <cub> If they don't do "same exact thing" I don't think apps should be compared.
[09:29] <sakrecoer> ok. :) i thought i made it clear that blender is not up to debate in that context
[09:30] <sakrecoer> ..and that it was NOT comparable to the rest
[09:30] <cub> I'm not saying Blender should go. I'm saying Blender is not in the same area as Kdenlive
[09:30] <sakrecoer> and nobody is arguing against you. i was just curious as of why you would bring that up
[09:31] <cub> and as I wrote, I don't know the developments of pitivi but I know movie makes who are successful with kdenlive for actual movies. No so sre about the same with the other editors
[09:31] <cub> I brought it up as it's a long email thread and discussion in the channel yesterday
[09:32] <zequence> Seems like pitivi could be somewhere in the middle, but if it's very simple to use, and better than openshot, perhaps we drop openshot?
[09:32] <cub> zequence: yes could be. 
[09:32] <sakrecoer> it seems to lean between pitivi and openshot yes
[09:32] <sakrecoer> pretty fond of kdenlive myself
[09:33] <cub> or if it turns out next version of kdenlive will require ALL of KDE libraries to be installed, it might be dropped
[09:33] <sakrecoer> even tho at this point i wouldn't think of editing video outside of blender
[09:34] <sakrecoer> it even has jack sync :D
[09:34] <sakrecoer> but that is beside the point here :)
[09:35] <zequence> If pitivi and openshot both are simple to use, but both do something the other one can't, I could see why it makes sense to keep both
[09:36] <zequence> I've only used openshot so far out of all the editors, but I could give pitivi a spin during this week
[09:37] <sakrecoer> i guess i should do that too
[09:38] <sakrecoer> i had a quick run of pitivi, and i was fairly impressed.
[09:39] <sakrecoer> transitions and titles are super easy to achieve
[09:39] <sakrecoer> seems to have gnome layout on the window, not sure that is a problem..
[09:40] <sakrecoer> i might be out bicycling ;) but i have this memory of openshot having a limited amount of tracks
[09:42] <sakrecoer> i reckon they all have a track limit set by ram/machine, but in the openshot it was maybe hardcoded.
[09:43] <zequence> openshot is really rudimentary, but the good points with openshot I think is it seems to work with pretty much any file format, and it's very simple to decide a sensible output format as well
[09:44] <zequence> Editing is not so fun in openshot. So, if you're only adding maybe 2-3 clips in a row, it's ok
[09:44] <sakrecoer> ouput options are a very important point. video rendering is a jungle
[09:45] <sakrecoer> i have to run.. read you guys later
[09:45] <zequence> For someone who wants to turn their phone recording into a youtube video, openshot does the job
[09:45] <zequence> sakrecoer: Ltr
[11:37] <sakrecoer> cfhowlett: hi! do you think you would have time to put together a post for our social media to gather ideas for feature definition?
[11:37] <cfhowlett> so a "make your suggestions here!!" type of thing??
[11:38] <sakrecoer> yeah :) exactly, maybe enfocus the 'add', 'remove' 'replace' dimension of it..
[11:39] <sakrecoer> based on the wiki page about it..?
[11:39] <cfhowlett> ah!  even better.  will this be timed for the 16.10 release or should we leave that undefined?
[11:40] <sakrecoer> well, maybe it should stay undefined... but you could push the 'best bet to get it through is to make it happen yourself' somehow...
[11:41] <cfhowlett> sounds about right.  I'll draft it and send it your way before deploying.
[11:41] <sakrecoer> but the idea is mostely to, well, gather ideas :)
[11:41] <sakrecoer> awsome! :)
[11:41] <sakrecoer> thank you!!!
[12:17] <zequence> sakrecoer: If just asking for opinions, that may be less technical for our users. They don't think in terms of package selection, or adding/removing features. Just what they would like to see different
[12:18] <zequence> So, perhaps a simple question like "What kind of additions/changes would you like to see in Ubuntu Studio?"
[12:18] <cfhowlett> zequence, sounds reasonable
[12:19] <zequence> Our users should not use our wiki for suggesting changes either. That's strictly for us who are active here
[12:20] <cfhowlett> noted.  perhaps we can slurp input via the social media channels?
[12:23] <zequence> cfhowlett: Yes, I think that's what the users would be most comfortable with. Perhaps suggest them to voice opinions on our user mail list as well
[12:23] <cfhowlett> even better.
[12:23] <zequence> or, as an alternative
[15:42] <zequence> yakkety is now open for development, meaning it's possible to do uploads to the archive
[17:20] <zequence> UEFI fail
[17:26] <zequence> Ah, no. Just brain fail.
[17:26] <zequence> plymouth looks nice in 1080p on a TV
[17:27] <zequence> sakrecoer: We did well with the artwork for this release!
[17:32] <zequence> Just realized the ubiquity plugin is including desktop-core, which it shouldn't. My bad. Never thought of that
[17:37]  * OvenWerks wonders how he missed that one.
[17:37] <OvenWerks> zequence: I should have caught that too
[17:39] <zequence> OvenWerks: Needs to be filtered out in the plugin code. Had forgotten I had done that for the -desktop meta
[17:40] <zequence> Think edubuntu was doing that too (that's where the plugin was "stolen" from, and readapted for Ubuntu Studio)
[17:40] <zequence> Would seem likely anyway. They are the only ones aside from us that had an interest in particular extra metas
[17:41] <zequence> They had a meta for each level of school
[17:41] <OvenWerks> Ya, it is just that I did look at that part of things when I was testing installs, it just surprises me I didn't have a "whats that there for?" moment.
[17:41] <zequence> OvenWerks: You do usually catch that sort of thing
[17:41] <OvenWerks> That makes sense
[17:43] <OvenWerks> I am installing xsane to see if that handles the other scanner. If not I can bug libsane which simple scan uses too. I am pretty sure that is not the problem but I don't know which package to bug otherwise.
[17:45] <zequence> Bothersome with that sort of regressions, which you would think would not need to happen
[17:46] <OvenWerks> It seems to be everything epson, printers/scanners, whatever.
[17:47] <zequence> OvenWerks: Ok, I remember my first time seeing downloadable printer drivers for Linux the same way you see them for Windows - Canon had a few.
[17:48] <zequence> I was able to use a printer through the network that was hosted through a Windows XP machine
[17:48] <zequence> ..that way
[17:48] <zequence> I actually got access to it, though the IT person had tried to block access
[17:49] <zequence> Probably very unusual to find .deb packages with drivers for individual printers/scanners
[17:49] <OvenWerks> thing is this scanner worked OOTB on 14.04, no drivers added.
[17:51] <zequence> OvenWerks: Yeah, would be strange to pull functional drivers from Linux.
[17:57] <zequence> knome: It's almost like our wallpaper was inpsired by our artwork for the website theme (which we currently have). Not intentional, but it's almost pre-destined figuring how the colors were chosen in the first place
[17:57] <zequence> your* artwork for the website team
[17:57] <zequence> sorry, the "r" slipped there :)
[17:57] <zequence> theme*, anyway, best to stop spelling now
[17:59] <flocculant> :)
[18:16] <autumna> flocculant btw: I did try gnome-boxes extensively, and my conclusion is: just use virtual machine manager. it is about the same difficulty as virtual-box anyway.
[18:17] <autumna> you can't share folders, and there is a bit of a weird artifact happening with mouse control that somehow doesn't happen with vmm
[18:40] <zequence> autumna: Probably you can share folder over the network, but you need to bridge the guest first, so it gets its own IP address
[18:41] <autumna> zequence: that's pretty much what I read but that's somewhat convoluted, and chances are you could accidentally expose private data to net :)
[18:42] <autumna> in context we were discussing if it could be a good alternative for the beginners which.. yeah no. :D I can live with not being able to move the folder where the virtual machines are created but...
[18:43] <zequence> autumna: Only if you don't have a PAT or firewall in between, which you would have with a router of some sort
[18:43] <zequence> Otherwise, it's just the same as with any OS sharing files. The virtual ones are no different in that
[18:44] <zequence> A virtual OS is just like any other OS, just that it's a guest of another OS
[18:44] <autumna> if you are at home then yes. if you are on a dorm or workplace, or working at a coffee house though.. then it gets more interesting. 
[18:44] <zequence> Would be no different than sharing files on your laptop.
[18:44] <zequence> I mean, the host
[18:45] <autumna> as in sharing files with another computer on your network?
[18:45] <zequence> Yeah
[18:45] <autumna> yeah I don't want to do that. 
[18:45] <zequence> But, you can easily secure that whatever means you use
[18:46] <zequence> ssh, for example
[18:46] <zequence> Just install an ssh server on either the guest, or the host, and you can move files in between them using scp
[18:46] <zequence> That does mean, the guest needs to have its own IP
[18:47] <zequence> And, before you question the security of that, just remember, a guest is just like any other OS on the network, as already explained
[18:48] <autumna> I guess it depends on how private you want to be. I do think sharing in a network even local one is undesirable, (also can be slow) and not a replacement to sharing local folders. 
[18:48] <flocculant> autumna: yea - in the end I wasn't too interested given it's immediate minus for me - and was mostly just looking to see if it was nice and simple for drive-by testers
[18:49] <autumna> zequence: I do however concede that it might not be an issue for everyone but I would still say that all of this is not terribly beginner friendly :) 
[18:51] <zequence> Either you want to share something, or not. That is what makes it desirable or not. From a security POW, if that is an important factor, you choose something that works, and SSH is a very good solution
[18:51] <zequence> It's not magic, after all
[18:52] <autumna> zequence: sharing with my own virtual machine that I use isn't the same thing as sharing with somebody else. 
[18:52] <zequence> ssh is probably not the most beginner friendly, in that I agree, absolutely
[18:52] <zequence> Sharing over the network doesn't mean you are sharing with someone else, if it's securely shared
[18:53] <zequence> Of course, it makes it less secure, but it's not unsecure, if you do it the right way
[18:54] <zequence> The difference is highly philosophical, or even unknown under secure conditions
[18:54] <autumna> flocculant: yeah I mean I can see the use of quick iso and install testing but even then, then there is the limitation of not knowing what the underlying structure of the machine at all. Plus the mouse issue. 
[18:56] <flocculant> got to be honest - when I couldn't tell it where I wanted the vm to live - game over ;)
[18:56] <autumna> zequence: I am on the camp of better safe than sorry, especially in this context for beginners. As for the levels of security, less secure might be acceptable for some things but not others. :)
[18:57] <zequence> Again, it's not magic, but sure, better if you know the difference
[18:57] <autumna> flocculant: heh I was very annoyed too, I was just going with somebody who is doing testing for first time and would have that machine on their harddrive for a brief time would probably not care that much ;D
[18:57] <autumna> zequence: :)
[18:59] <autumna> flocculant: I also do hope that they are going to fix those 2 features through eventually, because it is something many beginner level users will look for. 
[19:01] <flocculant> autumna: well the first-time tester has only got to have a smallish / - do some vm - forget - update and include a kernel and it all go wrong :)
[19:01] <flocculant> autumna: and I'd not hold out hope for gnome to ADD a feature ;)
[19:01] <autumna> OUCH flocculant
[19:01] <autumna> ouch!
[19:01] <autumna> :)
[19:02] <flocculant> anyway - enough of that from me in your dev channel :)
[19:02] <autumna> heh
[19:02]  * zequence uses Gnome as the main DE
[19:03]  * zequence is not lacking any features, but is also a so called "power user"
[19:03] <autumna> I haven't forgotten my promise to zequence to write a bug filing procedure (just sidetracked because we were just linked a whole bunch of documentation I had somehow missed, so going through them first) maybe when I do that I can write instructions on how to set up VMM machine from scratch to do testing. 
[19:04] <autumna> I used to use gnome a long time ago, but I just love the aesthethics of XFCE and lightness. too bad there is no wacom setup app. which for me is the primary drawback
[19:09] <zequence> autumna: Are there wacom setup apps available?
[19:10] <zequence> If there are, we should include them
[19:10] <zequence> I heard about the wacom scripts, and there's a feature definition for it right now
[19:10] <autumna> gnome and kde has them. theorically you CAN run them from xfce but I haven't figured out how
[19:11] <zequence> autumna: But, aren't those specific applications, not a part of the DE itself?
[19:11] <zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WacomScripts
[19:11] <autumna> I have a rudimentary script to do screen switching that I wrote for myself but it needs to be adapted to various setups. (and at some point I started to write something to map keys which never got finished, because i never use the shortcut keys *chuckles*)
[19:12] <autumna> oh wow!!!
[19:12] <autumna> I had no idea there was a feature definition for that
[19:12] <autumna> I have..  ideas
[19:12] <autumna> a lot of ideas
[19:12] <autumna> ok so
[19:13] <zequence> If the Gnome solution is applicable in XFCE just by installing a package, that would be the best solution
[19:13] <autumna> there is at least a gnome gui. to set up wacom. I heard good things about it, because apparently it can have per app settings which is pretty good. kde and unity. Unity I think has something, and kde has or had something.. 
[19:13] <autumna> zequence: I tried installing it
[19:13] <autumna> and I did
[19:13] <zequence> ok
[19:13] <autumna> but all the instructions that said how to get it to show on xfce4 settings
[19:14] <autumna> or launch it manually resulted in an empty gnome settings window
[19:14] <autumna> now I might have missed something in instructions or did something wrong but yeah.. 
[19:14] <autumna> *is frustrated*
[19:14] <zequence> Perhaps sakrecoer could be of the best help here
[19:15]  * zequence doesn't have wacom
[19:15] <autumna> maybe? 
[19:15] <autumna> although he is also stuck
[19:15] <zequence> I'd gladly help with the technical side of things, but can't do any sort of testing at all
[19:15] <autumna> I was actually giving him some information about how to map wacoms to screen yesterday I think
[19:15] <autumna> I can write a shell script to automize things, time allowing
[19:16] <autumna> I would however need help with making that into an indicator. but yeah if we could somehow get the gnome wacom setting in and test that it would be great. 
[19:17] <zequence> autumna: Could you add your script to the wiki page, please? In that case, add it under its own heading at the bottom, and to enclose code, use {{{ }}}
[19:17] <zequence> The enclosion is the moin-moin version of <pre>
[19:18] <autumna> gotcha
[19:19] <zequence> Sadly, that means the sidebar doesn't play well with it
[19:19] <autumna> hahah
[19:20] <zequence> A particular problem in the packagin/dev section of the wiki, where the side-bar is really tall, and you actually want to include a lot of code
[19:20] <autumna> fyi key part is incomplete
[19:20] <autumna> read nonexistent :D
[19:20] <zequence> autumna: What is the key part?
[19:20] <autumna> setting keys
[19:21] <zequence> Ah, ok. Perhaps we can help solve that.
[19:21] <autumna> there is 2 options, one is for switching mapping, other is in future, for changing between keymappings
[19:21] <autumna> well keymapping set would switch based on person
[19:22] <autumna> hang on let me put up what I have first then I'll explain
[19:22] <zequence> ubuntustudio-controls is meant to be a indicator app in the future, so it would not be impossible to add the wacom stuff as a plugin for it, but not sure it's the right way to go (the less choices in a app, the better, and with audio+graphics, that grows)
[19:23] <zequence> We could have one indicator for audio, and another for graphics
[19:24] <autumna> that would be great
[19:26] <zequence> One of the good things about having sakrecoer as the project lead is that we'll have more focus on the graphics side of things for a while
[19:27] <autumna> *nods*
[19:27] <autumna> as an artist, it is something that I would largely appreciate :D
[19:43] <autumna> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WacomScripts
[19:44] <autumna> sakrecoer: I did put a version of the script to the above link if you want to use it. the screen mapping switch at least should be working unless there has been a syntax change since. 
[19:45] <zequence> autumna: Nice work
[19:47] <autumna> zequence: my suggestion would be, ideally, to get the ancient wacom-utility and fork it. it seems pretty easy to fix. from there we can add the toggle to swap screen setups (that can start as either one screen at a time, or all screens, or enter your own matrix for advanced users), set the xinput calibrator as a requirement and just launch it from there, until we can deal with it) what I have no idea how to do however is.. how to 
[19:47] <autumna> :D
[19:48] <autumna> ....and I will shut up now. 
[19:50] <zequence> autumna: The important detail in this is that you know what is needed, technically. Then, of course, someone needs to implement that in some way
[19:50] <autumna> :)))
[19:50] <zequence> I can really not promise anything at this moment, but I would definetly be a candidate as far as coding and packaging goes
[19:51] <zequence> I do think that sakrecoer could be of some help here too
[19:51] <zequence> OvenWerks may be someone who could get this sort of thing done as well
[19:51] <autumna> if you can handle the listening to grab the current app name, and device ID from the system.. 
[19:52] <autumna> I can probably sort out a good portion of the script part, between 3 of us and anyone else who wants to pitch in, we might be able to pull this off
[19:52] <autumna> 4 of us
[19:53]  * autumna needs to watch the chatlog more carefully
[19:54] <autumna> the nice thing is that the wacom_utility is written in python
[19:54] <autumna> which means it is relatively easy to understand
[19:56] <autumna> do you want me to also email this? 
[19:57] <autumna> (this reminds me, I also need to write the thing to start the website content discussion. *grumbles* not enough hours in the day)
[19:57] <zequence> autumna: you mean to the list? It wouldn't hurt - if someone else is interested in this, then it's good to know and helpful to get inpit
[19:57] <zequence> input*
[19:57] <autumna> *nods*
[19:59] <zequence> autumna: This IRC channel is good for discussion, but we always use the mail list for important stuff, and it also reaches out to more people
[20:00] <autumna> that makes sense to me.. I just wasn't sure at first how you guys did things
[20:00] <autumna> (which wasn't helped by the fact that it was the eleventh hour of a release cycle ;D)
[20:02] <zequence> A few things were extremely late this last cycle. That will probably never happen again :)
[20:07] <autumna> hahah
[20:07] <autumna> please don't jinx it
[20:07] <autumna> please don't jinx it
[20:07] <autumna> :D
[20:08] <autumna> not late is always better :) 
[20:09] <zequence> autumna: This time around it was pretty extreme
[20:09] <autumna> ahha
[20:09] <zequence> Mostly because of artwork though
[20:09] <autumna> what happened with it? I mean obviously I know you had a contest
[20:09] <autumna> but
[20:09] <zequence> But, it turned out really wall in the end
[20:09] <autumna> too many entries? 
[20:09] <zequence> We had a contest for community wallpapers, but that's just an addition
[20:10] <autumna> ah
[20:10] <zequence> Me and Set ended up doing the default wallpaper
[20:10] <autumna> ah
[20:10] <autumna> its pretty
[20:10] <zequence> That in itself ended up us having to change multiple packages
[20:10] <autumna> and I love the spinning wheel. 
[20:10] <autumna> *raises an eyebrow*
[20:10] <autumna> wait why?
[20:10] <autumna> *is confused*
[20:12] <zequence> We just changed from naming the default wallpaper <name.something> to <ubuntustudio-default.png>
[20:12] <autumna> ah
[20:12] <zequence> Before, we had to change ubuntustudio-default-settings so it had the new wallpaper
[20:12] <zequence> Also, the installer, ubiquity
[20:13] <zequence> ..which is not ours
[20:13] <autumna> aah
[20:13] <zequence> And, the slide-show for ubiquity. The first image is the desktop
[20:13] <OvenWerks> I use ssh for file transfer. Once one end has the server, open up thunar on the other end and if you have things set to have a file path box open (toolbar style) just go sftp::/othermachine/
[20:13] <zequence> So, ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu had to be changed
[20:14] <autumna> (hi OvenWerks!)
[20:14] <zequence> autumna: We also changed the CoF, so ubuntustudio-icon-theme had to be changed
[20:14] <OvenWerks> it ends up all DnD and I can edit files directly from the file manager
[20:14] <OvenWerks> o/
[20:14] <zequence> And, the plymouth theme was changed. The spinning CoF was Sets idea, but I had actually though of it before he voiced it
[20:15] <OvenWerks> You can drag the folder icon in the url box to places and it will be one click to open next time (plus password)
[20:17] <autumna> zequence: it was brilliant
[20:18] <zequence> autumna: The blue looks really nice too, in the text logo. that was the work of madeinkobaia, our previous art lead
[20:19] <autumna> it is very nice no seriously
[20:19] <autumna> this distro is beautiful generally so I am not surprised overall
[20:19] <autumna> :)
[20:20] <sakrecoer> just read up on the back log
[20:20] <sakrecoer> hi
[20:20] <sakrecoer> i'll gladely help with wacom testing
[20:21] <sakrecoer> autumna, zequence, i can write the email about website.
[20:22] <zequence> sakrecoer: About the website?
[20:23] <sakrecoer> content discussion for website
[20:23] <sakrecoer> :)
[20:23] <autumna> sakrecoer: I am just trying to write down a few personas.
[20:23] <zequence> sakrecoer: Content discussion?
[20:23] <autumna> but if you really want to do it I'll drop. 
[20:24] <sakrecoer> also i have decided i will set up blue prints like xubuntu does. i need to keep track of things and its the perfect tool. including for bugs https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-y-xubuntu
[20:24] <sakrecoer> autumna: i offer you to do it to unload you
[20:24] <sakrecoer> if you prefer initiate it, be my guest :) 
[20:25] <autumna> sakrecoer: I am 90% done with the email
[20:25] <autumna> :D
[20:25] <autumna> so trying to save you the burden that's all
[20:25] <autumna> otherwise I am neutral you are the lead ;D
[20:25] <sakrecoer> perfect then!
[20:25] <sakrecoer> shoot :)
[20:25] <autumna> ok almost done with both emails
[20:27] <sakrecoer> autumna: both ? other one us about wacom?
[20:27] <sakrecoer> *is
[20:28] <sakrecoer> zequence: the websit content discussion autumna mentioned an hour ago or so :)
[20:28] <autumna> yeah just the link
[20:28] <autumna> that is not hard
[20:28]  * autumna needs to talk less and write 2 more sentences more *laughs*
[20:29] <zequence> sakrecoer: Ok, you mean the feature definition?
[20:29] <sakrecoer> jumping in #us to catch up :) brb
[20:29]  * zequence was thinking about http://ubuntustudio.org
[20:29] <sakrecoer> zequence: the blueprints, i want to copy the xubuntu method
[20:30] <autumna> lol
[20:30] <autumna> omg I think the chat finally turned into a spagetti
[20:30] <autumna> *is amused*
[20:30] <sakrecoer> yes :D
[20:30] <sakrecoer> i'll go res #us, use the knife for the spaghetti!
[20:31] <sakrecoer> *read
[20:33] <zequence> sakrecoer: Don't forget that Xubuntu only has a DE and not specific multimedia concerns
[20:34] <zequence> But, I can see the benefit of having a singular blueprint only for bugs. Just a question of what should be included there.
[20:34] <zequence> ..bugs to our source, or for the whole of Ubuntu Studio
[20:34] <zequence> Ubuntu Studio in itself is the biggest OS amont all the flavors. We have the most packages, by far
[20:37] <zequence> Xubuntu has a very simplistic goal, and much of that is based on XFCE
[20:37] <zequence> We are in a whole another sense pioneers of what you can and should do with multimedia applications
[20:38] <flocculant> sakrecoer: just because the way we use blueprints works for us - and bear in mind it's more or less using LP blueprints internally only - doesn't mean it would for anyone else
[20:38] <zequence> sakrecoer: We already have all of what they have in the last cycle, but a lot more,
[20:39] <flocculant> zequence: if you were going to say use a blueprint for bugs - I'd be inclined to only use it for those you have more chance of seeing action on 
[20:39] <zequence> Question is rather, what should be in those blueprints?
[20:39] <flocculant> we only list things like that on our bug bp
[20:39] <zequence> flocculant: Like - the important bugs!
[20:39] <flocculant> well yea 
[20:40] <flocculant> but then again - a bug in ubiquity is important - but why list it :)
[20:40] <flocculant> anyway - not anything to do with me - have enough trouble with my own bp's :)
[20:40] <zequence> sakrecoer: This is why I'm saying - figure out what should we do for the next 6 months first - then decide how to organize it
[20:40] <sakrecoer> exactly, also stuff that get easily overlooked
[20:42] <zequence> So far, it's the old stuff plus some new
[20:43] <zequence> De agnostic, ubuntustudio-controls, wacom-scripts
[20:43] <sakrecoer> yes, and i need to have consistent way to keep track of them
[20:43] <zequence> New website, new documentation
[20:43] <flocculant> personally I would work out what's needed - then decide if you need a tool - then decide which
[20:43] <zequence> exactly
[20:43] <flocculant> kubuntu make a lot of use of trello for instance
[20:44] <flocculant> we tried - but it didn't work well for the team
[20:44] <sakrecoer> flocculant: exactly, and there are already 5 points zequence just listed
[20:44] <flocculant> I use(d) that for our QA somewhat
[20:44] <zequence> First decide what is going to be changed - make feature definitions of those. Then, decide which will be turned into blueprints, if needed
[20:45] <sakrecoer> yes zequence but it will pile up
[20:45] <sakrecoer> and i'd rather start sorting things from start
[20:45] <zequence> Both DE-agnostic, and ubuntustudio-controls are two things that are beyond cycles, so those will happen whenever someone puts work into that.
[20:45] <sakrecoer> then having a mountain of todos and risking to forget half of them
[20:45] <flocculant> sakrecoer: yea - but what zequence is trying to say (I think) is work out what needs doing and then decide on the tool
[20:46] <flocculant> rather than decide on the tool - then decide what to put in it
[20:46] <flocculant> but
[20:46] <sakrecoer> i understand that
[20:46] <flocculant> I'm dragging myself in again lol 
[20:46] <zequence> sakrecoer: The less, the better. And, if you can get ours to look as nice as Xubuntu's all cudos to you
[20:47] <flocculant> https://trello.com/b/IV66JCHl/xubuntu-qa
[20:47] <zequence> But, it's not like we have not been doing that already, just that we have more stuff
[20:47] <flocculant> that's more or less empty now - but you can see how we used it
[20:48] <zequence> flocculant: For some reason, I never found the way into Trello myself
[20:48] <flocculant> neither did knome :)
[20:49] <flocculant> to be honest - if the team is small and the items are few - a shareable doc works just as well as anything :)
[20:50] <zequence> That's why in my view feature definitions is the most important thing
[20:50] <flocculant> yup
[20:50] <zequence> blueprints is just a list of tasks
[20:50] <flocculant> yep
[20:51] <zequence> You can't know the tasks until you first know what it is you want to do
[20:51] <flocculant> of course not
[20:52] <zequence> So, feature definitions! Plans!!!
[20:52] <sakrecoer> :) i know, that is why there is whiteboard in the blueprints
[20:52] <zequence> Yes, but again, blueprints are tied to launchpad, to project, to bugs, to all kinds of things. And, that is just what it can do, not what it does
[20:53] <zequence> The feature definition explains what is to be done, and the blueprint organizes is, if needed
[20:54] <zequence> Nevertheless, the absolutely most important thing is that we agree on what is to be done, and then no one gets to do otherwise without some discussion
[20:54] <zequence> That is, something is documented on what is to be done, and the everyone follows that, until you can't and then there's discussion
[20:55] <zequence> Otherwise, people will do whatever they feel like, and that won't work
[20:56] <sakrecoer> yes, we agree on that
[20:56] <autumna> ok emails sent.. - oh the backlog *goes to catch up*
[20:57] <sakrecoer> i think that tool is perfect, and xubuntu is a great example of how. i mean feature definition is the whiteboard, todolist is tge work item, you can connect bugs and teams, i think it is great
[20:58] <sakrecoer> this of course doesn't exclude things have to be discussed :)
[20:58] <sakrecoer> i'm not planing on going solo here, i just want to keep track of all discussions in a comprehensible way.. well more comprehensible and dynamic then the wiki anyway
[20:59] <sakrecoer> but i will think a little longer about your saying zequence :)
[21:00] <zequence> Again, we didn't do things much differently. Just less people involved, and we had more blueprints, because we have more suff
[21:00] <zequence> I chose not to register them to the Ubuntu project - no need, and better to couple them with the appropriate project
[21:02] <zequence> There's nothing that can get broke though, so :)
[21:04] <sakrecoer> :)