[01:00] <Acou_Bass> slight curiosity, is ther anything for ubuntu touch thatll let me configure hw keyboard shortcuts?
[01:01] <altker128> Curiuos, anyone using the Meizu 5 (Ubuntu Touch)?  Had questions about lag and user experience.
[01:01] <altker128> err, make that curious
[01:02] <Acou_Bass> ive acquired a small keyboard for my nexus 4 and it has a few keys for eg. browsr shortcuts
[01:02] <altker128> Acou_Bass: Are you running Ubuntu Touch on your Nexus4?
[01:03] <edude03> Speaking of the Meizu 5 why the **** doesn't it have Convergence
[01:04] <Acou_Bass> altker128: yeah hence wanting to set it up :P
[01:04] <altker128> Acou_Bass: What are your impressions?
[01:04] <Acou_Bass> great OS, not nough apps
[01:04] <altker128> What's lag and all that like?
[01:05] <Acou_Bass> eh, slightly laggier than id like, but totally usable
[01:08] <Acou_Bass> lag isnt a huge issue for me, i only ever used firefoxOS, maemo and early android and ubuntu runs better than mamo but worse than firefox
[01:13] <altker128> Why is Ubuntu lagging?  Is the UI HTML5 / being interpretted??
[01:18] <Acou_Bass> Umm I don't think the ui is HTML5, but i dunno why get lags
[01:39] <altker128> Any Ubuntu touch developers to shed light?
[01:40] <dobey> there are many various things that can cause lag
[01:40] <dobey> it's not too bad on my n5
[01:40] <altker128> I wonder if the Ubuntu touch are making use of libhybris / Android subsystem which isn't well implemented
[01:40] <altker128> On a *quad-core* processor with a GPU there should be zero lag
[01:40] <altker128> Seriously, a 386 25 MHz computer could scroll a window without lag.
[01:41] <dobey> edude03: ask meizu. they make the hardware. also i don't think there are any usb-c mhl adapters yet? and not sure the meizu device has the mhl wires hooked up
[01:41] <dobey> altker128: please don't make such sarcastic and pointless claims as some sort of objective reference when you know they are not
[01:42] <altker128> I've used 386 25 MHz computers.  They could scroll with zero lag because the video card accelerated functions like bitblit .
[01:43] <dobey> well let me know when you find a 386 25 MHz computer that does floating point; or has GLES
[01:43] <altker128> So, given that, why does a quad-core device lag?
[01:43] <altker128> (386 with a co-processor could do floating point BTW)
[01:43] <altker128> (387)
[01:44] <dobey> it only lags for you because it knows you are adversarial
[01:45] <altker128> OK.  When someone can objectively explain what the issues might be, let me know.
[01:45] <dobey> when you can ask a specific question, you can have a specific answer
[01:45] <altker128> The question is why does Ubuntu touch on devices like Meizu 5, Nexus 4 and Neux 5 suffer from lag issues.
[01:45] <dobey> if you're just going to come in here and troll with broad generalizations about multi-core vs 386
[01:46] <altker128> I WANT Ubuntu Touch to be successful
[01:46] <dobey> the answer is there are many things that can cause lag
[01:46] <altker128> If Android on the same device doesn't lag, then something implementation-wise is off.
[01:46] <dobey> if you think android on the same device doesn't lag, you haven't used android on the same device
[01:46] <altker128> Android lags often because of garbage collection of the JVM
[01:47] <altker128> That's a specific reason why it lags.  Why does Ubuntu Touch lag?  It's not interpreted (as far as I know)
[01:47] <altker128> Is the UI written in HTML5?  Then it could lag
[01:47] <dobey> most of the ui is qml; qml is interpreted; but simply being qml and interpreted is not why it lags
[01:48] <duflu> altker128: I am on the Mir team, and presently focussing in performance. The lag issue is being worked on (even OTA-11 will improve things) but the final solution will take longer than OTA-11
[01:48] <altker128> duflu: Thanks for that.  Can you be a bit more specific on the issues?
[01:49] <duflu> Also, I used to program graphics 286's before 386's, so I know what you mean
[01:49] <altker128> duflu: :)  Me too
[01:50] <duflu> altker128: There was a touch processing regression in OTA-10. There are some mouse event bugs too. There are some graphics bugs specific to BQ devices. And there is a larger architectural problem that will take longer to solve. Which affect you more?
[01:51] <altker128> duflu: OK, all makes sense.  Really glad to know it's being looked at and actively worked on.  I really want to pull the trigger on the Meizu 5 (actually a few for my family) but held off based on the reports of lagging and unresponsive UI.
[01:52] <dobey> reports from where? the meizu pro 5 with ubuntu only went on sale yesterday, so nobody who has ordered one even has a device yet.
[01:53] <dobey> all the early preview reports i've seen speak of how fast it is, thanks to being octacore
[01:53] <duflu> Well, it's probably a common belief that Ubuntu Touch issues might be common to multiple devices. And for most of the performance problems they are indeed common to all devices.
[01:54] <duflu> A _lot_ is improving in OTA-11 though.
[01:55] <altker128> dobey: Search around.  There was a more indepth article I can't find, but here's one mention : http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/meizu-pro-5-ubuntu-edition-1315194/review
[01:55] <altker128> duflu: Got it.  Thanks, exactly the kind of positive progress that's good to hear about.
[01:55] <dobey> sure, the app startup times are pretty consistently slow across devices
[01:56] <dobey> but in general, my nexus 5 is very clearly quite a bit faster than my nexus 4, too
[01:56] <dobey> also, a lot of apps are webapps, and really, web developers do some pretty awful things on their sites
[02:07] <edude03> dobey I want to ask them
[02:08] <edude03> But more importantly, Canonical shouldn't allow them to release new a device without Convergence
[02:14] <dobey> well, buy Canonical, and then you can dictate that
[02:14] <dobey> and MHL isn't required for "convergence"
[02:16] <dobey> anyway i shouldn't still be sitting here at my computer; later
[02:20] <edude03> lol
[02:20] <edude03> I didn't say anything about MHL, I said convergence
[02:38] <cc> https://i1.someimage.com/dT4yZqy.png
[07:32] <pstolowski> pitti, hello
[07:36] <pitti> pstolowski: o/
[07:38] <pstolowski> pitti, hey, having weird autpkg issue in silo 71; we had a flaky test in unity8 that got fixed and i rebuilt yesterday; package diff shows the commit was included in the build. but it looks like the autopkg tests were run against the old build again this morning
[07:38] <pitti> pstolowski: publisher delay maybe?
[07:39] <pitti> the publisher takes awfully long for the main archive right now, maybe that somehow affects the PPA publisher too
[07:39] <pitti> pstolowski: i. e. retry it in an hour or so?
[07:39] <pstolowski> pitti, the build was done 18 hours ago. excuses file has a timestamp 2016.04.28 06:46:20
[07:40] <pstolowski> pitti, do i need to rebuild again, or can we kick autopkg tests for unity8 only?
[07:40] <pitti> pstolowski: no, if the build is correct you don't need to rebuild anything of course
[07:40] <pitti> pstolowski: we can just retry the failed tests on https://requests.ci-train.ubuntu.com/static/britney/vivid/landing-071/excuses.html
[07:41] <pitti> pstolowski: done
[07:42] <pstolowski> pitti, thanks! can i monitor progress somewhere? i guess silo status will see the change in a couple of hours?
[07:47] <pitti> pstolowski: yes, e. g. http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml#pkg-unity8
[07:47] <pitti> well, only unity8 :) (three tests)
[07:53] <pstolowski> pitti, awesome, thanks for help Martin!
[08:21] <popey> I am still getting blank app scope all the time
[08:21]  * popey files a bug
[08:27] <john-mcaleely> sergiusens, one step ahead of you, and working on a fix already
[08:27] <john-mcaleely> yes, it's a bug
[09:02] <duflu> popey: Blank app scope on desktop? Me too but I just assumed I had failed to install packages
[09:03] <popey> duflu: blank app scope on phone
[09:03] <duflu> Oh
[09:03] <popey> tempted to nuke this phone. I've only done OTAs for ages
[09:03] <popey> can't remember last time I udf'ed it
[09:55] <baum> is anyone aware of a dark colortheme for the menus/scopes?
[09:59] <mcphail> baum: I think the old theme was dark, so you'll see it in old screenshots
[10:03] <peat-psuwit> Where's git commit for linux-mako 3.4.0-7.44? I can find only 3.4.0-7.43 in git repo.
[11:29]  * baum is wondering about the same: http://askubuntu.com/questions/763419/can-i-install-apps-in-ubuntu-touch-without-signing-in
[11:40] <ogra_> baum, you can sideload click packages from the commandline
[11:41] <ogra_> (via adb or ssh)
[11:42] <baum> i see thanks, it would be quite usefull to have acess to a terminal emulator right uppon activating the developer mode
[11:42] <baum> (eg like on sailfish)
[11:42] <ogra_> that would imply a terminal being installed ...
[11:44] <ogra_> and the terminal app can also be used without enabling developer mode, so i dont really see the connection here, they are totally independent
[11:45] <ogra_> all developer mode does is turning on access via adb
[11:45] <baum> the connection would be that 99% of the time people who are activiating the developer mode on a device will also need a terminal
[11:45] <ogra_> ??
[11:45] <ogra_> for what
[11:46] <ogra_> if you enable adb access you clearly want to access the device from a PC ... why would you need a terminal *on* the device for that ...
[11:46] <ogra_> and vice versa, if you install a terminal, why would you need developer mode ?
[11:47] <ogra_> i really dont see how one would cause the other ... both are available though ...
[11:47] <ogra_> and again ... tieing dev mode to terminal would mean you need to have an account set up already so the terminal app can be installed from the store in some automated way
[11:50] <baum> erm, where's the difference between the terminal app and let's say the pre-installed game? licencing? or why is the terminal app tied to an account, while the game isn't?
[11:51] <ogra_> you can not install packages from the store without setting up an account for the store
[11:51] <ogra_> the pre-installed game is preinstalled, so doesnt need to come from the store :)
[11:52]  * baum would prefer having a shell preinstalled instead of that game :P
[11:52] <baum> alright thanks
[11:52] <ogra_> tell the manufacturer ...
[11:52] <ogra_> the set of preinstalled software (beyond the basic apps like the dialer, browser or messaging apps) is selected by the phone manufacturer
[11:53] <baum> oh i see
[11:54] <ogra_> and given that 99.9% of phone or tablet users dont even know what a terminal is or does, i doubt convincing them is an easy task ;)
[11:56] <baum> well that was actually my point, while 99.9% don't - people who activate the developermode do - thus they are most likely the target group when it comes to a terminal app. Anyways, enoth of that - it's just a feature i realy realy enjoyed on my phone
[11:56] <ogra_> just install it from the store then :)
[11:57] <davmor2> baum: and for the people that want a terminal it is right there in the store done, you don't even need developer mode enabled to install it or run it
[11:58]  * ogra_ is a developer and usually doesnt even have developer mode enabled :) ... 
[11:58] <ogra_> i have a terminal app, my ssh keys on the device and ssh turned on instead ... way more convenient than having to fiddle with usb cables
[11:59]  * davmor2 is qa and only enables it to install silos or get logs
[11:59] <baum> nothing wrong with that - what bothers me is that you need an ubuntu account to start with
[12:00] <ogra_> you dont need one ... but it is pretty convenient to be able to use the store and not having to sideload everyhting
[12:02] <davmor2> baum: Why? All Store are linked to an account, don't forget there are a mix of free and for purchase apps in the store so you need payment details etc for the paid apps how would you do that without an account
[12:03] <popey> baum: you can compile the app yourself if you want, it's free software
[12:03] <baum> popey: yep, sounds like that's the way to go
[12:03] <ogra_> lol
[12:04] <baum> davmor2: i'm not a tablet poweruser, all i want is to check my mail, browse pdfs, install a tiling-wm for desktop mode and get vim and git running :)
[12:04] <popey> tiling wm might be a problem
[12:04] <davmor2> hahahahaha
[12:05] <baum> i heared someone installed xfce on the tablet - thus with a bit of effort it should work?
[12:05] <ogra_> lol
[12:05] <ogra_> sure, everything works if you put enough effort in
[12:06] <ogra_> popey, well, in tablet mode unity8 is actually a tiling WM :)
[12:07] <davmor2> baum: so vim.tiny is built in so all you need to do is install the terminal app and vi is there, install docviewer and you get pdf and office reader everyhting else should be on the device and done :)
[12:07] <ogra_> (with one big tile though)
[12:07] <davmor2> baum: out of interest what is you issue with logging in to get apps?
[12:08] <baum> davmor2: i don't want an account per device, especially since i will only use foss software on the tablet anyways
[12:09] <ogra_> yeah, it isnt like you need to give your shoe size, blood group or maiden name of your mom to create an account
[12:09] <popey> some people just don't like having extra accounts, which is fine
[12:10] <ogra_> popey, sure, but you can do it fully anonymous which is why i never get why some people refuse it so hard
[12:10] <popey> hm, i guess.
[12:10] <ogra_> baum, it is one account per store :) not per device ... (if you had an ubuntu phone and a tablet ... and would use some snappy IoT device it would all be the same account)
[12:11] <baum> ogra_: 1)metadata 2) i don't need an account - even if it's anonymouse, why force it on me?
[12:12] <ogra_> because thats how the store works ... not sure what metadata you fear .....
[12:12] <popey> i think you may be playing ignorant ogra_
[12:12] <ogra_> and indeed it isnt an actual requirement but makes life a lot less convenient
[12:12] <ogra_> popey, am i ?
[12:13] <popey> http://real-agenda.com/merkel-lied-german-intelligence-gave-nsa-millions-of-metadata/
[12:13] <popey> you know what he means by metadata
[12:13] <ogra_> dunno ... i can create a totally anonymous account, there is no metadata transferred that is in any way personal
[12:14] <baum> right because an account isn't ment to be personal. an account won't get linked to a device or will be used for authentication uppon opening the store right?
[12:14] <ogra_> the latter
[12:15] <ogra_> but that means that the metadata for a non existing person is transferred .... nobody could tell "this account belongs to a guy who calls himself baum on IRC"
[12:17] <baum> nope, that means a device identifier will probably be stored, the ip/mac acress, a timestamp and most likely quite a bit of other data
[12:17] <ogra_> (indeed if you use baum@web.de for creating the account and that address is totally tied to your personal data thats a different story)
[12:18] <ogra_> the IP and timestamp might , yeah ... pretty sure the MAC wont be transferred
[12:18] <popey> if baum was a person of interest, the authorities could request data from canonical about the store habits of an individual
[12:18] <popey> which might include where the store was browsed from, like a coffee shop
[12:18] <popey> "Oh, you were in that coffee shop, so was $person_of_interest"
[12:18] <ogra_> if they could tie the account to personal data, yes
[12:18] <popey> _that_ metadata
[12:18] <baum> ogra_: if not the mac than some kind of identifier, else the authentication would be rather worthless
[12:18] <popey> CCTV in coffee shop, not hard
[12:19] <ogra_> baum, a random token, yes ...
[12:19] <ogra_> (generated from your password)
[12:19] <popey> baum: the source for the store client can be seen at https://launchpad.net/unity-scope-click
[12:19] <popey> if you want to see what is transferred, that's where I'd look
[12:19] <ogra_> yeah
[12:20] <baum> popey: thanks
[12:20] <ogra_> anyway, nothing forces you ... its just not as much fun without :)
[12:20] <popey> np
[12:21] <ogra_> does jolla not use accounts for its store btw ?
[12:22] <ogra_> (just out of interest)
[12:22] <baum> they do - left them pretty much the same feedback
[13:08] <davmor2> ogra_: all stores use sign in it's the only way to grant access to purchased apps
[13:09] <ogra_> well, thats a political thing ... you could technically work around that and only require login for paid apps if you invest enough time and money
[13:10] <ogra_> the benefit is indeed very small compared to the investment
[13:10] <davmor2> ogra_: indeed
[13:11] <ogra_> (and i think since i'm in this channel we didnt have more than 5 persons in here that actually didnt want to use any account, so teh margin of users actualyl concerned about it seems very very small)
[13:11] <ogra_> (this is indeed a totally scientific metric ;) )
[13:26] <dobey> davmor2, ogra_: well, even if we allowed installing free apps without an account, the account is still needed for other things, like push notifications
[13:27] <ogra_> true indeed
[13:31] <ShR3K> Hi ! Does OTA 11 will add apt-get or snap feature. I'd like to install LAMP to use my Aquaris M10 as retail
[13:31] <dobey> no
[13:32] <dobey> ShR3K: https://askubuntu.com/questions/620740/recommended-way-to-install-regularcli-deb-packages-on-ubuntu-phone/623311#623311
[13:32] <ogra_> ShR3K, just use a chroot then
[13:34] <ShR3K> Thanks, I managed install LAMP with the adb solution
[13:34] <ShR3K> But I just wanted to know if it will be easier later
[13:34] <ShR3K> I'd like to disable all swipe gesture
[13:35] <ShR3K> I just want one app (firefox or chrome)
[13:35] <dobey> you don't need adb
[13:36] <ShR3K> http://www.mibqyyo.com/en-articles/2015/11/13/ubuntu-touch-system-rw-bq-canonical-smartphones/#/vanilla/discussion/embed/?vanilla_discussion_id=0
[13:36] <dobey> you should not do that
[13:36] <ogra_> dobey, terminal-app wont let you chroot properly ...
[13:36] <dobey> ogra_: it does now
[13:36] <ogra_> not with OTA 10 on my M10 tablet ... libertine still barfs
[13:37] <dobey> huh
[13:37] <ogra_> (during bootstrap though... so it might not actually be the chroot call)
[13:38] <dobey> ogra_: yeah that's something else
[13:38] <ogra_> (or rather post bootstrap when it tries to install additional basics)
[13:38] <dobey> ogra_: "sudo chroot ." definitely works on my mako
[13:38] <dobey> i can screenshot if you want :)
[13:39] <ogra_> nah, i belive you :)
[13:39] <ogra_> libertine create definitely didnt work when i tried ... i think libertine install does though
[13:39] <dobey> not sure what libertine is doing exactly
[13:39] <ogra_> provide an Xmir container
[13:39] <dobey> well i know that muh
[13:40] <dobey> much
[13:40] <ogra_> heh
[13:40] <ogra_> i think it uses "proot" which is kind of a bastard chroot command
[13:41] <dobey> ShR3K: anyway, it sounds to me like what you want isn't a tablete, but a chromebook
[13:41] <ogra_> and a saw to remove the keyboard perhaps :)
[13:42] <dobey> or a kiosk maybe
[13:42] <dobey> don't know if any kiosk makers are building any with ubuntu core yet
[13:42] <ogra_> kiosks ... havent seen someone using them to remove keyboards yet
[13:43]  * ogra_ suspects saws are more effective
[13:43] <ShR3K> dobey: No I realy want an ubuntu tablet. I built 32" kiosk with a standard motherboard x86 with ubuntu and I want to keep all my scripts
[13:43] <dobey> ogra_: you need to swing it harder maybe
[13:43] <ShR3K> That's why I was waiting for years an ubuntu tablet
[13:43] <dobey> i don't undersatnd
[13:43] <dobey> understand even
[13:44] <ShR3K> I created a product which is a kind of big tablet (32 inches) with ubuntu 14.04 inside
[13:45] <ShR3K> Now I want the same but in 10 inches  like this tablet
[13:46] <dobey> well if you want to run only xorg with firefox or chromium (there are no generic arm builds of chrome), you will have to build your own (unsupported) custom image for the tablet
[13:47] <ShR3K> But firefox is a good solution too
[13:47] <ShR3K> I use it
[13:48] <dobey> well that's not the point; the point is that what you want is not an "ubuntu tablet" it is a custom kiosk device
[13:48] <ShR3K> I'd like to customize ubuntu touch interface disabling gestures
[13:48] <dobey> you cannot
[13:49] <ShR3K> And installing gnome ?
[13:50] <dobey> no; like i said, you would have to build your own unsupported custom image for the device
[13:51] <ShR3K> Ok
[13:54] <ShR3K> Thanks for your help
[14:00] <ogra_> dobey, indeed you can ... you could re-write half of unity8 ... its opensource after all
[14:00] <ogra_> (indeed there is that "is that a useful effort" question :) )
[14:03] <xuhui> Can ubuntu be installed on kindle fire?
[14:03] <baum> xuhui: check out the hardware specs of the kindle....you don't want that
[14:04] <xuhui> ubuntu touch ,not ubuntu
[14:04] <dobey> ogra_: sure; but you might as well just replace unity8/mir with xorg at that point
[14:04] <dobey> !devices | xuhui
[14:05] <dobey> xuhui: there is no "ubuntu touch" it's just ubuntu :)
[14:05] <ogra_> dobey, which wont work because there is no xserver for the HW
[14:05] <dobey> ogra_: well, i guess fbdev will work
[14:05] <ogra_> technically, yes ... for slideshows :)
[14:06] <dobey> ogra_: i didn't claim it would be fast, or even usable. just possible :)
[14:06] <ogra_> indeed
[14:06] <xuhui> ok,thank u..
[14:07] <dobey> unity8 without gestures, on a tablet, is basically just one of those LCD picture frames, displaying a picture of unity8 :P
[14:23] <matv1> hi, where could I find the sourcecode for the Songkick scope please?
[14:26] <matv1> I love the concept but it annoys me to no end that it can only look at my current location (which half the time doesnt work anyway)
[14:26] <matv1> I would like to look at adding the possibility of adding a location manually
[14:26] <matv1> shouldnt be that hard
[14:27] <ogra_> i would suspect there is some systemic issue with scopes and location in general
[14:27] <ogra_> so looking at the source of a specific scope wont really help
[14:28] <ogra_> (seems pretty random when/if location works )
[14:28] <ogra_> (while it always is fine with nav apps)
[14:29] <matv1> ogra_ ok so that needs to be fixed obviously. but that still means i would like to be able to manualy set the scope for location
[14:30] <matv1> say I am now in a certain place in holland atm. but i know i am going to be at a city in germany tomorow and see what gigs are playing. Now i cant do that until I get there :(
[14:30] <matv1> thats not very usefull
[14:30] <ogra_> yeah, thats kind of a drawback of the current implem,entation
[14:32] <matv1> ogra_ So is the scope code fr songkick actualy available as far as you know?
[14:33] <matv1> for mortals like me :) ?
[14:33] <ogra_> i'm sure it is, but i wouldnt know where
[14:33] <matv1> who would know?
[14:34] <dobey> kyleN: ^^ do you know wrote soundkick scope, and if the source is published anywhere?
[14:34] <ogra_> kyleN, ^^^
[14:34] <ogra_> bah, i'm really getting old ... dobey beats me again
[14:34] <dobey> heh
[14:35] <kyleN> dobey not sure at the moment and in meeting. I will check and get back to you
[14:36] <matv1> kyleN it was actually me asking about that. I will ping you later about it. thanks fr now!
[14:36] <matv1> and thnks dobey, ogra_
[21:33] <embrik> I need to know if there are any services to cakup images on the phone, like on andoroid phones where images are synced
[21:33] <embrik> not cacup, but backup :-)
[21:36] <ogra_> embrik, i think the gitbook that the guys on the mailing list collected has something about backups
[21:36] <ogra_> https://gurucubano.gitbooks.io/bq-aquaris-e-4-5-ubuntu-phone/content/en//
[21:39] <embrik> ogra_: thanks - i'll try that?
[21:39] <embrik> ogra: Not ? but !
[21:39] <ogra_> ah, welll, i thought there was something
[21:40] <embrik> :-)
[23:05] <mariogrip> dobey: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B74IZ6Q2msPDMVhxaHdYaGp6dk0/view?usp=sharing
[23:14] <popey> oooh
[23:28] <mariogrip> popey: do you got some spare time tomorrow to test portcraft?
[23:29] <popey> a bit
[23:29] <popey> maybe more over the weekend
[23:29] <popey> I am at a hotel with rubbish wifi here
[23:29] <mariogrip> popey: no problem, i can wait to next week :)
[23:37] <popey> mariogrip: happy to play over the weekend - monday is a public holiday here, then tues-thu is UOS
[23:37] <popey> so whenever you're ready for someone to test, fire it over :)
[23:38] <mariogrip> popey: sure :)