[01:33] <Kamilion> trying to get the webcam-webui example to work, had to apt install snapd, but I get an error when trying to snap install webcam-webui_1_amd64.snap: - Make snap "ubuntu-core" available to the system (can not set next boot: cannot determine bootloader)
[10:01] <caraka> While doing the 'build your first snap' tutorial, the 'snapcraft stage' command never sees/installs the stage-packages: -fswebcam portion of the yaml. Any ideas what I could be missing?
[10:21] <daker> ogra_: ping
[10:21] <daker> hi i am trying to install a snap using
[10:21] <daker> sudo snap install raspi2modulessyncup_4.4.0_armhf.snap
[10:22] <daker> a local snap, but snap is trying to download it from the store
[10:22] <daker> https://paste.ubuntu.com/16143215/
[11:03] <caraka> dacker: I have no business offering advice here, but have you tried specifying the complete path the .snap file?
=== yp is now known as ypwong
=== daker_ is now known as daker
=== rob-oi-ma_ is now known as rob-oi-ma
[14:42] <oparoz_> Does snappy care about what's in the snap's /etc/init.d folder?
[14:48] <sergiusens> Kamilion did you install only snapd and not by any chance any deb you were not supposed to? Like ubuntu-snappy?
[14:49] <sergiusens> Kamilion log a bug just in case
=== oparoz_ is now known as oparoz
[15:12] <oparoz> Is there an easy way to clean up all the garbage left over by snaps in /etc/systemd ?
[17:50] <slvn> oparoz, maybe the scripts from zyga, e.g. https://github.com/zyga/devtools/blob/master/reset-state
[17:51] <oparoz> Thanks slvn. I think that script goes too far as my system probably wouldn't boot any more :)
[17:51] <oparoz> But it could be altered
[17:51] <slvn> oparoz, I tried it to remove/clean-up all snaps installed on my system ...
[17:52] <oparoz> slvn, your system is probably desktop?
[17:52] <slvn> yes
[17:52] <oparoz> The problem with core is that some of these snaps are required to boot
[17:53] <oparoz> But that script still helps as it gives the location of files
[17:53] <slvn> oparoz, ok, then maybe don't use this script :)
[17:54] <slvn> btw, may I ask you what kind of platform do you use for this ?
[17:54] <oparoz> What do you mean by platform?
[17:55] <slvn> hardware ? I mean this is not a desktop ?
[17:55] <oparoz> I use a VM for amd64 stuff, otherwise it's a Pi2
[17:56] <slvn> ok, I'm just curious
[17:57] <oparoz> Once Snappy core is GA, I'll probably use the desktop version
[17:58] <oparoz> Right now I just need something which matches the target
[18:00] <slvn> oparoz, but snappy is currently working on desktop, isn'it ? I mean, I just build and tested my first snap packages last week. Is this different for rpi2 ?
[18:00] <oparoz> Yes, it's different because the Pi2 uses Core which isn't ready yet
[18:01] <oparoz> Should take another month or 2
[18:02] <slvn> ok
[19:47] <bumblehead> Hi I'm trying to run the webchat snap example. I was able to create the webchat snap package. I was able to install it. I'm not able to run it.
[19:47] <bumblehead> http://askubuntu.com/questions/765571/how-do-i-run-the-snapcraft-webchat-example
[19:48] <bumblehead> would someone tell me what I'm doing wrong?
[20:05] <bumblehead> should snappy still be considered to be in the "baking" stage?
[20:08] <Kamilion> bumblehead: sorry, just woke up a little while ago -- I had questions like yours too
[20:09] <bumblehead> Kamillion: were you able to find answers or help for the questions you had?
[20:09] <Kamilion> from what I understand, snappy moved beyond the initial baking stage with 16.04's release, supposed to include snapd/ubuntu-core-launcher on the install media of all of the different spins
[20:09] <Kamilion> unfortunately, lubuntu doesn't ship with snapd/ubuntu-core-launcher
[20:10] <bumblehead> Kamilion: do I need to install snapd/ubuntu-core-launcher?
[20:10] <Kamilion> <sergiusens> Kamilion did you install only snapd and not by any chance any deb you were not supposed to? Like ubuntu-snappy?    <---- no, fresh lubuntu 16.04 64bit ISO, apt install snapd, snap install webcam-webui_1_amd64.snap
[20:11] <Kamilion> bumblehead: I don't know
[20:11] <Kamilion> are you using lubuntu?
[20:11] <Kamilion> do you have the 'snap' command available?
[20:11] <bumblehead> no regular ubuntu
[20:11] <bumblehead> I do have the snap command
[20:11] <Kamilion> when i tried to use the snap command I got this error
[20:11] <Kamilion> - Make snap "ubuntu-core" available to the system (can not set next boot: cannot determine bootloader)
[20:11] <Kamilion> in response to 'snap install webcam-webui_1_amd64.snap'
[20:12] <Kamilion> bumblehead: as far as I know, all of the other isos have snapd (and ubuntu-core-launcher is one of it's dependants)
[20:13] <Kamilion> once I actually installed the OS to a disk, I got past the strange bootloader error
[20:13] <bumblehead> i don't think this looks good when the examples don't run
[20:13] <Kamilion> but now I have the same problem as you
[20:13] <Kamilion> I built the webcam snap, and installed it, and have no idea how to launch it
[20:14] <bumblehead> it looks like a lot of the information out there is spread out and incomplete
[20:15] <bumblehead> despite the marketing around snap, official support snap may be shallow
[20:15] <Kamilion> correct, IMHO canonical has followed this plan before with a lot of their 'not-invented-here' alternatives to standard linux, such as the unity desktop, mir, 'click' packages, and a couple others I could name but decline to at this point
[20:15] <bumblehead> maybe they'll have some of the issues worked out in the next release
[20:15] <Kamilion> there's lots of news postings
[20:15] <Kamilion> and very little wiki/documentation
[20:16] <bumblehead> yeah some of the documentation just looks like it was created as a formality
[20:16] <Kamilion> and what documentation there is, seems targeted at either developers only, or "users, no developers, no admins"
[20:16] <bumblehead> what good is a howto document that doesn't show me how to run or test the app?
[20:16] <Kamilion> I'm very used to tools where the documentation is "read the comments in the source code", so i'm not TOO bothered
[20:17] <bumblehead> I'm using ubuntu touch --same situation there
[20:17] <bumblehead> stuff just languishing in a broken state for years
[20:17] <Kamilion> but this isn't a bashing session, just pointing out
[20:17]  * Kamilion laughs
[20:17] <Kamilion> yeah, Upstart.
[20:17] <bumblehead> the ubuntu touch store also
[20:17] <Kamilion> The stories I could tell you about my adventures with upstart. *facepalm*
[20:18] <Kamilion> what about Ubuntu-One? Poof, gone, all my dotfiles and homedir neccessities...
[20:18] <Kamilion> I love that they try new things
[20:18] <Kamilion> but it's a double edged sword.
[20:19] <Kamilion> so I hope nobody mistakes this as "I hate canonical!" because that's just totally untrue. I have much <3 for them, I just don't agree with them all the time, that's all :D
[20:20] <bumblehead> its fair to observe flaws
[20:20] <Kamilion> anyway, snappy seems half-baked at the moment
[20:20] <bumblehead> there's always this persective 'its open source so you aren't in a position to complain and we're all busy and can't fix our broken stuff so live with it'
[20:21] <Kamilion> the idea is well thought out, but the implimentation is... uh... What's a word for 'disorganized and strewn about" ?
[20:21] <bumblehead> implementation is incomplete
[20:22] <bumblehead> and the pattern appears to be that once something gets released
[20:22] <Kamilion> eh, the ecosystem is incomplete; the core tool works at the moment
[20:22] <bumblehead> they stop improving it
[20:22] <Kamilion> *cough* ptrace in upstart...
[20:22] <Kamilion> yeah.
[20:23] <Kamilion> The one thing I wanted to do was launch the webserver... Oh, sorry, can't launch apache with upstart because upstart uses ptrace somewhere and apache really doesn't like that.
[20:23] <Kamilion> longstanding bugs, plans formed, and in the end? systemd swoops in and the whole problem evaporates.
[20:24] <Kamilion> I'm kind of afraid that's what's going to happen to Mir/Unity as well...
[20:24] <bumblehead> sounds like they need to figure out a way to do that with unity and ubuntu touch and snappy and the application store and the core ubuntu apps...
[20:25] <Kamilion> wayland will suddenly get a whole bunch of industry support (like the recent announcements that the new GL/Vulkan stuff was already wayland compatible) and then people will be left holding the ball trying to support what amounts to be a personal project
[20:25] <Kamilion> well, it seems to me that's exactly what snappy is
[20:25] <bumblehead> its too bad...
[20:25] <bumblehead> in theory the idea is really attractive
[20:25] <Kamilion> a way to ship a whole application bundle with it's libs and everything, as one package.
[20:26] <Kamilion> It will be GREAT for games.
[20:26] <bumblehead> is there an alternative to snappy that's supported by a responsible vendor?
[20:26] <Kamilion> no longer does it matter that this game needs qt4-something and I only have qt5-something
[20:26] <Kamilion> uhhh, honestly? Not that I know of.
[20:26] <Kamilion> I'm familiar with most of the distros and the package managers that run them
[20:27] <Kamilion> the only thing that I can think of that's similar is gentoo's overlay system for portage
[20:27] <Kamilion> Or, well, ubuntu's own PPA system if there's a metapackage in the PPA that 'grabs everything'
[20:28] <Kamilion> and that's one of the reasons why I'm still here
[20:28] <Kamilion> Canonical may be quirky and slow to support things.. but they *ARE* innovating greatly
[20:29] <sergiusens> bumblehead the snapcraft examples are meant to be examples; and fwiw, it is run on every commit of snapcraft it self
[20:29] <Kamilion> like the lxqt PPAs (there's an lxqt-metapackage in the PPA that will get the right bits from universe and from the ppa)
[20:29] <sergiusens> it is not a command line tool (the way the example is crafted at least).
[20:29] <sergiusens> and you have an answer http://askubuntu.com/questions/765571/how-do-i-run-the-snapcraft-webchat-example
[20:30] <Kamilion> http://puu.sh/oBzoy/7622f10efb.png   <--- so it should be running on :3000 now?
[20:30] <Kamilion> *checks*
[20:31] <bumblehead> sergiusens: thank you that looks like the information I needed
[20:32] <sergiusens> Kamilion it should
[20:32] <sergiusens> I can't try right now; I'm on 3g
[20:33] <sergiusens> if you want a better node app; try shout. I am using it to write into right now
[20:33] <sergiusens> I'm really close to an electron app working as well
[20:33] <sergiusens> but it is the weekend after all
[20:34] <sergiusens> and not much free time to get to these things
[20:34] <bumblehead> seriusens: I want to package something with nw.js --if you finish packaging the electron app will you share the result somewhere?
[20:35] <bumblehead> sergiusens: I will try the shout example
[20:35] <Kamilion> sergiusens: are you one of the primary developers?
[20:36] <Kamilion> (it is not running on :3000 for me)
[20:36] <bumblehead> https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/blob/6685d6359887fbb7b1c35f3dce30bb70e7b06e8a/examples/shout/snapcraft.yaml
[20:37] <Kamilion> oh
[20:37] <Kamilion> I should point out -- you probably want The Lounge, not shout
[20:37] <Kamilion> https://github.com/thelounge/lounge
[20:38] <Kamilion> #thelounge here on freenode. It's a community fork of Shout, because the developer said that Shout is a personal project and he apparently wants to keep it that way
[20:40] <bumblehead> the should example does not build either
[20:40] <bumblehead> Issues while validating snapcraft.yaml: Additional properties are not allowed ('uses' was unexpected)
[20:40] <sergiusens> Kamilion it was already pointed out to me
[20:40] <sergiusens> bumblehead are you using master?
[20:40] <bumblehead> ah no
[20:41] <bumblehead> I will try the master example
[20:41] <sergiusens> bumblehead what are you using?
[20:41] <bumblehead> there is a 1.* branch that's what I was referencing
[20:41] <sergiusens> Kamilion https://github.com/sergiusens/shout/commit/899e61fa28fe6cb98a434123584a621c1d11ceb3#commitcomment-17313321
[20:41] <sergiusens> even though shout is not really abandonded though
[20:42] <bumblehead> snap is building the shout package
[20:42] <Kamilion> Shout isn't *abandoned*
[20:43] <Kamilion> "We felt that the original Shout project "stagnated" a little because its original author wanted it to remain his pet project (which is a perfectly fine thing!).
[20:43] <Kamilion> A bunch of people, excited about doing things a bit differently than the upstream project forked it under a new name: “The Lounge”."
[20:43] <Kamilion> I've been hanging around the IRC channel for the past ~3-4 weeks, and development is extremely active right now
[20:44] <sergiusens> Kamilion yeah, "active" and wanting to use it for real makes me think I want the dust to settle a bit; but I haven't checked out yet to be certain of my initial thoughts
[20:44] <Kamilion> but that's also a good thing that Shout isn't hugely active, the snaps made from it probably won't be version-obsolete for a while. :)
[20:45] <Kamilion> sergiusens: I should mention -- right now Shout cannot handle getting disconnected, and has no idea when 'the server has gone away'.
[20:45] <bumblehead> i wish one of the examples was a nw.js/electron hello world app that runs from a shell or icon click
[20:46] <sergiusens> Kamilion I fully know about that :-)
[20:46] <sergiusens> Kamilion you may see me pinging ubottu to know if my connection is alive :-)
[20:46]  * Kamilion chuckles
[20:46] <Kamilion> yeah, I do that to my supybot as well
[20:47] <Kamilion> although ours is the buddy/guy/friend/pal sequence from south park
[20:47] <Kamilion> trying to craft a snap from my old disker-gui package: https://github.com/kamilion/disker-gui
[20:48] <Kamilion> or at least, that is the plan.
[20:49] <Kamilion> sergiusens: do you know if snapd works on any of the other live ISOs, or if it's required to be an on-disk install with a 'normal' root filesystem?
[20:50] <Kamilion> I just can't seem to get snaps working on my most recent xenial spin, https://github.com/kamilion/kamikazi-core/releases/tag/0.9.0-rc1
[20:50] <bumblehead> sergiusens: do you recommend electron over nw.js?
[20:50] <Kamilion> I don't think it's enthused that my root filesystem is a squashfs.
[20:52] <sergiusens> Kamilion I don't know about installation requirements or not, sorry
[20:52] <sergiusens> bumblehead I'm not a nodejs person; but everything interesting is using electron
[20:53] <sergiusens> Kamilion a bug report against snapd might be handy
[21:00] <Kamilion> sergiusens: once I can figure out what needs to go in it, repros and data.
[21:03] <Kamilion> where should bug go? to the github issues, or launchpad on snapd?
[21:04] <Kamilion> ah, nevermind, answer's obvious if I look at the github -- no issue tracker.
[21:04] <Kamilion> just pull requests.
[21:05] <bumblehead> what does the yaml file look like for a tradional desktop style application which does not run as a service daemon?
[21:06] <caraka> noob question: While doing the 'build your first snap' tutorial, the 'snapcraft stage' command never sees/installs the stage-packages: -fswebcam portion of the yaml. Any ideas what I could be missing?
=== not_phunyguy is now known as phunyguy
[21:06] <Kamilion> bumblehead: I'm looking through the examples tree, and I'm not seeing any desktop applications, but I would figure it would expose a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications or somewhere else that a desktop environment looks for .desktop files.
[21:07] <Kamilion> caraka: I had some trouble going thru the steps myself; but grabbing the final from the git repo and snapcraft snap worked.
[21:07] <Kamilion> https://github.com/ubuntu-core/snapcraft/tree/master/examples
[21:08] <Kamilion> caraka: This is pretty much what I saw: http://puu.sh/oBzoy/7622f10efb.png
[21:11] <caraka> Thanks Kamilion. I haven't got  that far because fswebcam isn't getting staged. I'll try cutting and pasting the complete example yaml again, but I'm not sure it's going to help.  :P
[21:11] <Kamilion> I had some problems when it went to go update repos, I had keybase's deb repo enabled and it was very unhappy there was no Release file for xenial
[21:11] <Kamilion> caraka: there's a snapcraft-examples package you can install from apt
[21:12] <Kamilion> what I did was cp -R /usr/share/doc/snapcraft-examples/examples/webcam-webui ~/snapcrafty/webcam-webui
[21:13] <caraka> I shall try that, thanks. Would prefer to roll my own in order to learn the thng tho...
[21:14] <Kamilion> understood
[21:14] <caraka> all part of the learning curve.
[21:14] <Kamilion> I myself was just making sure everything was operating as intended before moving on to trying my own
[21:15] <Kamilion> yeah, I just started reading the docs myself yesterday
[21:15] <caraka> And of course I'll be having a go at a full desktop app before I'm ready.  :P
[21:15] <Kamilion> someone linked them to me after I complained about the release notes pointing to a Marketing press release page that wasn't very helpful
[21:16] <Kamilion> then found out lubuntu somehow missed snapd in their 16.04 release
[21:16] <Kamilion> I was told it's supposed to be part of the platform seed, which all of the different spins inherit from
[21:17] <Kamilion> so in theory snapd should have been included with all of the 16.04 release ISOs.
[21:17] <caraka> I think it may have all hit the betas at a very late stage
[21:17] <Kamilion> but nobody tested before shipping, and #ubuntu-release was a madhouse during release week, so it doesn't suprise me it was overlooked or put off till 16.04.01's june point release
[21:18] <caraka> I thought I heard it skidding into the blocks on April 20th...
[21:18] <Kamilion> hahaha no wonder
[21:18] <Kamilion> meanwhile, I've been running xenial since november
[21:19] <Kamilion> got so many little papercut annoyances fixed between 15.04 and 16.04
[21:19] <caraka> I waited. and mucked around with systemd and thoroughly barfed on my wily, so that I could erase it last week and start again
[21:19] <Kamilion> openvswitch is just so much happier now
[21:20] <Kamilion> xen and openvswitch play together nicely now too
[21:20] <Kamilion> and they barely caught the cusp of the ceph LTS release
[21:21] <Kamilion> I think they put one of the release candidates in the repo just before release and there's a SRU promised when the final lands. <3
[21:21] <Kamilion> I really love that they loosened the SRU restrictions this LTS
[21:21] <Kamilion> because of it now we get nginx 1.10
[21:21] <Kamilion> (that was a VERY pleasant suprise)
[21:22] <Kamilion> none of these ship on canonical ISOs, so they can all get updated in the archive without worry.
[21:24] <caraka> I never play with any of the infrastructure toys
[21:24] <Kamilion> all in all, 16.04 is gonna be a really solid platform that'll be well cared for till 2020ish for the server packages, and like 2018 for the desktop packages.
[21:24] <Kamilion> well, uh
[21:25] <Kamilion> till about 14.10 they were kinda sorta broken when just pulled in bare from the archives <.<
[21:25] <caraka> I hope so. canonical is mature enough to have made enough people grumpy. (and enough happy)
[21:25] <Kamilion> in 15.04 I complained enough so the defaults were sane but kind of poopy performance
=== not_phunyguy is now known as phunyguy
[21:25] <Kamilion> in 15.10 I got the performance problems resolved with a lot of the defaults
[21:25] <caraka> and now you have an LTS you are happy with
[21:26] <Kamilion> and the openstack team has been doing GREAT work on papercut bugs too
[21:26] <Kamilion> well, now we have an LTS where everything works out of the box, at least.
[21:26] <caraka> ^^
[21:26] <Kamilion> 14.04's point releases really helped too
[21:27] <Kamilion> and if you wanna play around with the fancy VM stuff
[21:27] <caraka> Well, we're onto our 6th LTS or so, so the pattern is set
[21:27] <Kamilion> https://github.com/kamilion/kamikazi-core/releases/tag/0.9.0-rc1  <--- my appliance image USB stick is powered by ISOs and casper
[21:28] <Kamilion> TORAM=Yes is my bestest friend.
[21:28] <Kamilion> I steal a gigabyte of ram for a full desktop on top of xen/kvm, openvswitch, ceph, and python3
[21:29] <Kamilion> "Don't mix your OS with your data" is a good way of describing it... Stick it on a slow USB stick, boot it into ram, unmount the slow usb stick, mount the user disks.
[21:30] <Kamilion> ubuntu-core's a different way of doing the same thing
[21:31] <caraka> thats some serious effort!
[21:31] <Kamilion> as an appliance, I expect to throw away 99.9% of runtime data when the machine shuts down. Anything the user cared about, they saved. (EG, logs and databases and such)
[21:32] <Kamilion> I stood on the shoulders of some pretty tall giants. :3
[21:32] <caraka> Despite it being Sunday morning, I must go to work. Keep up the good work!
[21:32] <Kamilion> but yeah -- after three years, my goals and canonicals have somewhat aligned
[21:32] <Kamilion> thanks to openstack getting popular.
[21:32] <Kamilion> o/
[21:33] <Kamilion> good luck with snapcraft!
[21:33] <caraka> o/ thanks, I'll need it!
[21:47] <bumblehead> howI installed the ubuntu-calculator-app with snap http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~dpm/ubuntu-calculator-app/snap-all-things/view/head:/snapcraft.yaml
[21:47] <bumblehead> how do I run the calculator from a shell?
[21:48] <bumblehead> ubuntu-caculator-app.start
[21:48] <bumblehead> command not found
[21:53] <sergiusens> bumblehead use autocomplete or ls /snaps/bin
[21:53] <sergiusens> err /snap/bin
[21:59] <bumblehead> sergiusens: thanks I'm able to run the calculator app
[22:00] <bumblehead> now I'm trying to run my nw.js application with snap but I think the npm command fails because it is not executed from the same location as the package.json
[22:00] <bumblehead> I'm using this command
[22:01] <bumblehead> `command: bin/npm run nw`
[22:01] <bumblehead> `nw` is defined in the script space of the package.json
[22:02] <bumblehead> relative to the snap root directory it is found in lib/node_modules/flashcards/package.json
[22:03] <bumblehead> I tried changing command to `cd lib/node_modules/flashcards/ && ../../../bin/npm run nw
[22:03] <bumblehead> but snapcraft says the cd command is not found
[22:06] <sergiusens> bumblehead you build using parts; `command` should hold the final application
[22:07] <sergiusens> so `apps` defines how the application is exposed within the snap to the outer world
[22:07] <sergiusens> and parts define how to build and/or lay it out in the snap
[22:10] <oparoz> Is it possible redirect calls going outside of a snap to an internal folder? Like when a binary only wants to create folders in /var/run
[22:12] <oparoz> Because even when compiled from source, we can't tell the binaries where the writable partition is
[22:13] <bumblehead> sergiusens: can you tell me how I would describe a build step in the parts section? for example running browserify?
[22:46] <bumblehead> it looks like I would need to write a plugin using python that would drive the node behaviour I need
[22:49] <bumblehead> I don't know where the best place would be to make possible suggestions
[22:49] <bumblehead> but I would suggest that the snappy plugin should use a special npm run command
[22:50] <bumblehead> that way people using node/npm would have an easy way to hook up functionality they need for setting up snap packages