[14:02] <nik90> hello hello :)
[14:02] <monmien> hi :)
[14:03] <timp> hello :)
[14:03] <popey> Hi
[14:05] <faenil> o/
[14:05] <alexabreu> hi
[14:05] <justCarakas> Hi
[14:06] <justCarakas> we can see you
[14:06] <justCarakas> QUESTION will  there be something included like react or angular to make it easier to create apps ?
[14:06] <alexabreu> justCarakas, you'll have  to wait a bit we talk about that in the presentation :)
[14:07] <justCarakas> ok nice :d
[14:07] <popey> uhm
[14:08] <popey> you guys in the wrong channel? :)
[14:08] <nik90> uhm wrong channel?
[14:08] <nik90> justCarakas, ^^
[14:08] <justCarakas> this is the channel under the video http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1605/meeting/22677/webapps-update/
[14:08] <nik90> justCarakas, you might want to inform the presenter that it is the wrong irc channel they are using
[14:09] <justCarakas> what channel should it be
[14:09] <nik90> justCarakas, I think #ubuntu-uos-core
[14:09] <justCarakas> no this is about webapps so not code
[14:09] <justCarakas> core
[14:10] <nik90> justCarakas, oh wait..its the webapps session that is scheduled for the next hour
[14:11] <cant_snail> where is Mark? :|
[14:11] <popey> mark's q&a is later
[14:11] <nik90> cant_snail, that plenary is scheduled for 18:00 UTC..4 hrs from now :)
[14:12] <nik90> QUESTION: Does the design team have the resources to handle weekly q&a / design sessions?
[14:12] <cant_snail> 4h, cant_wait
[14:12] <nik90> Personally, I think it is a great idea :)
[14:14] <justCarakas> +1
[14:16] <cant_snail> QUESTION: what software and OS do you use for designs?
[14:16] <nik90> popey, (comment), it would be nice to hold consistent sessions so that it becomes predictable. It can be twice a month or whatever frequency the design team can handle, but the important point being "regular/consistent"
[14:17] <nik90> popey, (comment), If there are no app submissions, then it would be nice to show tiny presentation of stuff they are working on.
[14:17] <justCarakas> Awesome react news
[14:17] <cant_snail> inkscape is great! sometimes i find illustrator harder to use
[14:19] <nik90> popey, (comment) once I get a blog post link, I can also announce it in the ubuntu-app-dev telegram channel
[14:19] <aquarius_> QUESTION: when talking about stuff you're working on, it's often really useful to hear *why* a certain decision was made, and which approaches were rejected -- we app devs can see what design decisions have been made, once they're released, but we often don't know the reasoning behind those decisions, or know that they're coming until they arrive. Is this something that you can use the sessions to speak abou
[14:19] <aquarius_> t, or is that stuff all secret?
[14:20] <aquarius_> would be lovely lovely lovely if more design team members could hang out in the telegram Ubuntu Apps channel for real-time conversation, too :)
[14:21] <popey> nik90: can you link to the telegram group here?
[14:21] <popey> telegram.me/ whatever
[14:21] <nik90> popey, https://telegram.me/ubuntuappdev
[14:21] <popey> thanks
[14:22] <nik90> faenil, yw :)
[14:22] <aquarius_> (I should note that faenil does an excellent job already, but more voices are always welcome :))
[14:22] <nik90> popey, yes, more admins would be great. At the moment there are only 2 admins.
[14:22] <faenil> aquarius_: awww :)
[14:23] <timp> nik90: it maybe a nice place to make UITK announcements too, usually just a link to a blog post
[14:23] <nik90> timp, I have started doing that as well.. Anything dev related is announced in that channel.
[14:23] <timp> nik90: okay, great :)
[14:23] <nik90> timp, I started just a month ago only.
[14:25] <nik90> popey, (comment) It would be super awesome to create a youtube playlist of these design sessions. App devs can quickly go through them and would help avoid duplicate questions in the future. An archive of these cool design sessions.
[14:26] <aquarius_> I don't think I'm suggesting that you publish everything instantly -- I understand the concern about putting misleading information out there! But once a decision is made, it's useful to know about the stuff you rejected too, because it's helpful to know which directions we *won't* be going in.
[14:26] <aquarius_> yes. Good call popey; that's exactly right.
[14:27] <miv0ligo> example: why notifications are white?
[14:27] <cant_snail> white? o_O
[14:28] <faenil> miv0ligo: at the same time, explaining and going through everything creates the risk of spending too much time preparing for those presentations :D then community goes "why is it white? I like it, I don't like it, that's bad, that's good"
[14:29] <faenil> I agree that it's nice to have headsup about what's changing in design, but preparing an explanation for every visual design change..doesn't scale :)
[14:29] <aquarius_> QUESTION: can some design resource be devoted to the developer experience? What it's like to develop apps, how the IDE looks, how easy and understandable the process is and how it can be improved?
[14:29] <aquarius_> That would be a great thing to go over in little bits as part of a number of design sessions, and it might help community people make small incremental improvements to the DX.
[14:30] <nik90> faenil, that is inevitable imo..that needs to be happen to ensure community and canonical designers are on the same page :) ..
[14:30] <nik90> faenil, and that might even help the community to defend these decisions when someone else questions them.
[14:30] <miv0ligo> faenil: but if you guys keep quiet, people will think all decisions are based on current mood of designers
[14:31] <bzoltan_> aquarius_: +1 :)
[14:31] <dbarth> hey, for webapps questions, can you re-paste questions so we can address them when we're done with the general pres.?
[14:31] <aquarius_> faenil, "preparing an explanation for every visual design change..doesn't scale" -- you have _already prepared_ those explanations; you must have had those discussions and decisions in order to arrive at a conclusion. It's a question of telling outsiders about them, not about making new ones up :)
[14:31] <dbarth> i know there's been a few while i was not on the chan
[14:33] <faenil> aquarius_: I'm not a designer so don't take my word for it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a designer told me that he changed something because he thought it looked better
[14:34] <aquarius_> that's a perfectly fine explanation
[14:34] <faenil> aquarius_: I mean, waht can you do? design is a very subjective matter. As long as you follow the style and the patterns, which they do
[14:34] <miv0ligo> QUESTION: does anyone from the design team use an Ubuntu phone as the only phone?
[14:34] <faenil> miv0ligo: me :)
[14:34] <aquarius_> but knowing whether something was changed because it just looks better, whether it was changed because it's part of a bigger upcoming set of changes that will make the whole platform look better, or it was changed because of something else is really useful
[14:35] <miv0ligo> faenil: good to hear :)
[14:35] <timp> faenil: which one?
[14:35] <aquarius_> I know I keep going on about this, but a set of brilliantly reasoned changes where we don't know the reasons are indistinguishable from a set of completely arbitrary changes which were made by dice rolls. :)
[14:35] <aquarius_> Thank you faenil, JamesJM, popey!
[14:35] <faenil> miv0ligo: been using it since it was released, krillin
[14:35] <nik90> popey, thanks for the sessions..looking forward to interacting more with the design team
[14:36] <miv0ligo> thanks guys!!
[14:36] <popey> \o/
[14:36] <timp> faenil: ah, I'm using the same. But I need it often for testing, so I'm considering to get another one
[14:36] <popey> Thanks for all the questions!
[14:36] <popey> I just ordered a Meizu pro 5
[14:36] <popey> No idea when it will turn up
[14:36] <miv0ligo> popey: gold?
[14:36] <timp> I like the size of the first BQ for a phone. I'm not a big fan of those huge ones to carry in my pocket
[14:37] <timp> if the meizu was smaller I would consider it
[14:38] <popey> miv0ligo: yes
[14:38] <miv0ligo> timp: same here, the size of e4.5 is perfect for me. Screen could be a bit bigger though
[14:40] <faenil> yeah, I don't like huge phones :/
[14:40] <faenil> always difficult to find 4-5" phones nowadays
[14:43] <miv0ligo> faenil: true, that's why some of my friends got iPhones although they prefer Androids
[14:50] <timp> miv0ligo: I was wondering how big the fairphone2 is
[14:51] <timp> and I'm not sure if/when we can run ubuntu on that
[14:51] <justCarakas> QUESTION when will we be able to use React for our apps ?
[14:51] <alexabreu> justCarakas, it is in alpha now, very very early alpha, it should be available in beta in the next few month and ideally released during the summer
[14:52] <alexabreu> justCarakas, we will do some posts on the ubuntu-phone mailing list
[14:52] <miv0ligo> timp: I've no idea. I guess popey have or had that phone ;)
[14:52] <justCarakas> ok then I'll wait for that for my new apps :)
[14:53] <popey> timp: mariogrip is porting to FP2
[14:53] <timp> popey: how big is it?
[14:54] <alexabreu> justCarakas, or we can get in touch before that to use your apps as test bed and test their support :)
[14:54] <popey> timp: no idea, I don't have one - join #ubuntu-touch and ask mariogrip :)
[14:54] <alexabreu> justCarakas, the more the better
[14:54] <timp> popey: okay, thanks
[14:54] <justCarakas> Im open for that alexabreu
[14:55] <alexabreu> justCarakas, you can join us on #ubuntu-webapps
[14:55] <alexabreu> justCarakas, do you have project pages up somewhere ?
[14:58] <aquarius_> am very confused; the webapps talk is finished? shouldn't it just be starting?
[14:59] <justCarakas> alexabeu not yet it will be an app for my phone provider, was going to start on friday but now I might wait a bit
[14:59] <dbarth> aquarius_: it just finished in fact
[14:59] <justCarakas> aquarius_: I think there was a timezone mistake
[15:00] <dbarth> aquarius_: there's a roadmap update you may want to look at:
[15:00] <dbarth> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1eECjnPmq2MSHYA8oggxdCMg7Gjg9c9fG22HpWxVNzUs/edit#slide=id.g7b91e8120_14
[15:00] <dbarth> slides here ^^
[15:00] <aquarius_> ah! ok. Oops. I'll read the roadmap and see if it answers my two questions :)
[15:00] <dbarth> it's all about snaps!
[15:00] <aquarius_> dbarth, document is restricted, not public
[15:00] <dbarth> and then there's a pretty cool reactnative alpha port that justinmcp is releasing
[15:00] <dbarth> aquarius_: ah, let me correct that
[15:01] <aquarius_> react native will be cool
[15:01] <dbarth> there you go
[15:01] <dbarth> aquarius_: it's getting there
[15:02] <dbarth> you get 2048, tictactoe and the movie explorer example
[15:02] <aquarius_> my two questions are: will we be able to add to homescreen from the browser and have that create a "webapp", and how close are we to supporting progressive web apps as Chrome/Opera/Edge/Firefox do?
[15:02] <dbarth> ie, you can start w/reactjs a webviews, and once ready to optimize for native, you can port quickly to react native, knowing there is an ubuntu port
[15:02] <dbarth> aquarius_: installable webapps is the 1st answer, and yes that's getting closer
[15:03] <dbarth> i think snappy is making that a lot more likely to happen
[15:03] <dbarth> if that makes sense
[15:04] <aquarius_> hrm. what's an "installable webapp"? the document suggests that it's a click/snap installed from the app store, which is not what I'm talking about
[15:04] <dbarth> progressive webapps i'm not sure, but i guess that's a step in the same direction
[15:04] <aquarius_> perhaps I have misunderstood!
[15:04] <dbarth> still reading on what that takes technically
[15:04] <aquarius_> the idea behind PWA is exactly that you don't need to make a separate downloadable distribution package of anything
[15:05] <dbarth> aquarius_: it's not a click/snap, it's a tab/url; but the snap interface would make that a lot more direct and native than having to support a new app type
[15:05] <aquarius_> it's the actual web; it's not just web technologies being used inside a packaged up app
[15:05] <aquarius_> OK. I'll try to find some time to review the session
[15:05] <dbarth> we're saying the same thing
[15:08] <dbarth> ie, PWA or what i understand it is about turns tabs into top-level app windows, with a launcher, right?
[15:08] <dbarth> that's what i feel our container turned into a snappy interface can provide
[15:14] <aquarius_> dbarth, cool. I think I'm thinking of this as a browser thing -- the browser offers UI to turn this site into a thing which appears in my app list, and possibly only shows that UI if the app meets certain criteria -- so I don't really mind _how_ it's implemented (whether it makes a snap and installs it, or what)
[15:40] <fruity> hello
[15:50] <fruity> hello charles
[15:55] <aquarius_> it's the popular exciting Callé scopes design showoff session :-)
[15:56] <sbt> :D
[15:56] <davidcalle> marcustomlinson: pstolowski https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYeC30Zp15qUEeHTp2ZAzZCAhdhCKIeGNMfQG1JhqenGyux7Jw
[15:56] <aquarius_> davidcalle, the scopes design thing is now, right? your G+ post says it's 1800UTC
[15:57] <davidcalle> aquarius_: it is!
[15:58] <nealmcb> are the slides for this presentation available somewhere?  put it in tht topic??
[16:00] <davidcalle> nealmcb: will ask during the presentation
[16:01] <davidcalle> We'll start in a few sec
[16:03] <davidcalle> Make sure you prefix your questions with QUESTION
[16:05] <sbt> Mac OS :D
[16:09] <ChloeWolfieGirl> Filters look awesome :D
[16:11] <miv0ligo> QUESTION: when on my phone????!!!!
[16:11] <ChloeWolfieGirl> QUESTION: Can you still scroll left to right through scopes on the phone or have to use the bottom edge to move between scopes?
[16:11] <sbt> QUESTION: After JavaScript scopes, what about python scopes?
[16:11] <ChloeWolfieGirl> OOOOOOH That score looks amazing <3
[16:12] <ChloeWolfieGirl> *Store
[16:14] <ChloeWolfieGirl> These new scopes and these new looks look amazing AF.
[16:15] <kalikiana> +1
[16:15] <ChloeWolfieGirl> <3 theres a considerable amount
[16:16] <ChloeWolfieGirl> QUESTION: With the new scopes has there been thoughts for themes or background images, so people don't have to see white if they'd rather see a darker colour maybe because its late, or to make there phone more there own?
[16:17] <sbt> +1
[16:18] <ChloeWolfieGirl> <3
[16:19] <DS-McGuire> QUESTION: ETA of these scopes?
[16:21] <sbt> +1 for cards in UUITK
[16:23] <dobey> someone's child seems to have a question
[16:23] <marcustomlinson> :P
[16:23] <davidcalle> dobey: :)
[16:23] <ChloeWolfieGirl> @dobey haha
[16:24] <faenil> miv0ligo: I'll be doing the scopes card component, if everything goes as planned :)
[16:24] <davidcalle> (He is already complaining about the new design)
[16:24] <pamarsan> I have one question: how about implementing an optional dark theme? It is much more comfortable for the eye to read everything, above all at night. Thanks! :)
[16:24] <CHeeseburg> Was the link put up already?
[16:24] <micah68> QUESTION: Has there been any thinking about discrete "pages" of content rather than continuous scroll? For apps I believe that this is what customers expect and is easier to get where you want by muscle memory.
[16:25] <miv0ligo> faenil: I'm dancing in my head now :)
[16:25] <faenil> miv0ligo: haha, I hope that's a positive sign :)
[16:26] <redboxez> QUESTION: why are so many tech sites confused about scopes?
[16:26] <miv0ligo> faenil: it is for sure :D
[16:28] <redboxez> QUESTION: what are your favorite scopes and why?
[16:28] <tedg> Clearly no one should use OSX, it has issues :-)
[16:30] <pstolowski> tedg, i think she is not, her laptop got stolen some time ago and she switched to ubuntu
[16:30] <miv0ligo> QUESTION: why you don't use Ubuntu at least for this presentation? It makes me sad :(
[16:30] <dobey> davidcalle, dizzypaty: not pagination exactly, but presention as pages like android/ios apps grid
[16:30] <sbt> QUESTION: does the design team use ubuntu in ther workflow at all ;)
[16:30] <tedg> pstolowski: I thought when she minimized the browser it was OSX
[16:30] <redboxez> QUESTION: what should be a scope and what should be an app? what is the advantages of making a scope instead of an app
[16:30] <davidcalle> Sorry for the happy mess :)
[16:30] <pstolowski> tedg, oh, didn't notice, maybe she got a new one then
[16:30] <dobey> lol no sound
[16:32] <davidcalle> Aaand we are back
[16:32] <tedg> pstolowski: https://youtu.be/flOYkk-4zvQ?t=20m57s
[16:32] <CHeeseburg> Next UOS there should be test presentation on hangouts with all presenters to make sure all this sound issues are sorted out
[16:32] <dobey> pstolowski: pagination doesn't solve the apps grid problem either
[16:33] <dobey> the main issue is people want to arrange their apps in a way that most suits their usage, and they want to see their wallpaper behind the apps grid
[16:33] <dobey> like ios/android
[16:34] <kazord> hi everyone
[16:34] <tedg> dobey: For the record, I want neither of those :-)
[16:34] <dobey> CHeeseburg: there's really no testing that sound works with hangouts. it might work one second and not the next
[16:34] <dobey> tedg: you aren't people :)
[16:34] <pamarsan> QUESTION: how about implementing an optional dark theme for scopes? Like Music App (much more comfortable for the eye, above all at night)
[16:35] <kazord> hangouts need some seconds to find a good way, after connected i had bad sound for like 20s then good
[16:36] <dobey> i think the problem here is that someone's laptop doesn't have properly working mic or something, and three people in the same glass room makes it confusing when the wrong person mutes
[16:37] <dobey> marcustomlinson: as long as the only thing you're doing, is consuming and displaying data, anyway
[16:37] <marcustomlinson> dobey: sure, which is a very common situation in app development
[16:37] <pstolowski> right. many interactions -> better make an app
[16:38] <dobey> right, but a lot of people start out with scopes, and then they want to add more and more interactions
[16:38] <kazord> when stop interaction ?
[16:38] <dobey> nobody likes the store scope? :(
[16:39] <kazord> for exemple: i'm app developper and made rssreaderscope, not really easy to had rss feed, but it really need this feature
[16:39] <d0od> I get the impression no-one actually uses scopes... lol :P
[16:39] <kazord> if you dont want to go though webservice for that (like tt-rss)
[16:40] <sbt> QUESTION: Do you use Ubuntu phones as your daily drivers?
[16:40] <kazord> MX4
[16:40] <miv0ligo> d0od: maybe not no-one but ...
[16:41] <dobey> everyone uses the apps scope
[16:41] <kazord> app luncher for me ...
[16:41] <kazord> (side shortcut)
[16:42] <dobey> you can't pin apps until you open them from apps scope though; unless you only ever use the default pinned apps
[16:42] <kazord> yeah, one a while, for store too
[16:42] <miv0ligo> ok ok, we believe you ;)
[16:43] <kazord> QUESTION:plans for more widget ? like list selection ?
[16:44] <sbt> QUESTION (I asked above, but it was skipped): What about a python scopes api?
[16:44] <sbt> ok :) I almost guessed
[16:44] <miv0ligo> need to go, thanks for great session and awesome new designs guys and gals o/
[16:45] <sbt> Python is not just a language either :P But yeah sure ;)
[16:45] <dobey> kazord: if you need that much, you should probably write an app
[16:45] <user20> QUESTION: In the past it was possible to show the twitter trends in the today scope. Any plans to bring this feature back?
[16:46] <pstolowski> i need to leave and drop from the HO
[16:46] <kazord> dobey: an app for configuration the scope ?
[16:46] <davidcalle> Thanks pstolowski !
[16:46] <dobey> kazord: yes
[16:47] <kazord> dobey can i call the app from scope ? (needed for my scope rssreaderscope)
[16:48] <dobey> kazord: you can register your app as a url handler for rssreaderscope:// and have an action which opens such a url, and it should open the app, yes
[16:49] <kazord> any doc/tutos about that somewhere ? :)
[16:49] <dobey> i'm not sure
[16:49] <marcustomlinson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/today-scope
[16:49] <user20> thanks
[16:50] <dizzypaty> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1V-oHHYj-I-tZAWpdbKbkmngyyqENsNAe0g74Ubh2v6I/edit#slide=id.ge741bf13b_2_215
[16:50] <marcustomlinson> user20: seems odd that it went missing
[16:51] <faenil> dizzypaty: it's not public
[16:51] <ChloeWolfieGirl> QUESTION: will the new scope things like, removing of faves, the new bottom edge, be something thats easy to get used to those who are used to using todays scopes intergration? IS there still swiping left to right with scopes you want to keep open and have them all open from boot? My set up is I have the today scope then picture scope then app scop
[16:51] <ChloeWolfieGirl> e, I wouldn't go to the picture scope if I didn't have to reach the app scope, I have it there to see updates of images, its just nice, like stopping to smell the flowers on your way to work, will I have o activly go out to see the image scope so I'm less likely to use it or will it be the same as the current scope version?
[16:52] <davidcalle> dizzypaty: can you make the presentation public? thanks :)
[16:52] <kazord> QUESTIONS: about scope nav, why you didn't make dot clickable (to navigate faster to specific scope)
[16:52] <redboxez> .kick udsbotu
[16:53] <redboxez> .slap udsbotu
[16:53] <dobey> redboxez: stop being rude
[16:54] <redboxez> it's just a bot..
[16:54] <redboxez> doesn't have feelings
[16:55] <dobey> it's just a bot, so there's no need for you to attack it and cause a distraction in the channel
[16:55] <redboxez> ok
[16:55] <marcustomlinson> kazord: There won't be dots any more with the browser style appearance: http://i.imgur.com/oHBvNQu.png
[16:55] <kazord> yeah no more, i'm sad about that
[16:56] <kazord> always wanted to touch&move from dotline to go faster to the end
[16:56] <marcustomlinson> kazord: I think it's a fair middleground
[16:56] <redboxez> bye and thanks for your time
[16:56] <marcustomlinson> you swipe up then tap the bottom scope
[16:57] <dobey> marcustomlinson: that's only favorited scopes, or all "installed" scopes?
[16:57] <marcustomlinson> dobey: right same situation as dots
[16:57] <dobey> ok, that's good
[16:57] <kazord> swipe&tap vs swipe (on specific zone) not really the same, but in term of dev and UI new design should see less lags
[16:58] <dobey> kazord: old swipe was really not nice if you had more than 2-3 scopes
[16:58] <kazord> dobey, i now :) cause to laggy to move 1 to 8th
[16:58] <kazord> but if only we could touch & move from dot1 to dot8
[16:59] <kazord> before UI move
[16:59] <kazord> could had been a nice feature (too late now as UI change)
[16:59] <dobey> the dots are too small a target
[16:59] <marcustomlinson> kazord: design is really a tricky thing. I guess there will always be some people for and against certain aspects
[17:00] <kazord> small to click yes
[17:01] <kazord> but to drag for exemple
[17:01] <marcustomlinson> I think the guys have come up with a cool solution considering how difficult their job is
[17:01] <kazord> marcustomlinson, agree, in term of dev & ui animation, should be good
[17:01] <kazord> i'm just 1year too late :)
[17:02] <marcustomlinson> ;)
[17:03] <dobey> kazord: seems like you'd need a long press to zoom, and then a tap or a drag/release, to do what you're describing. so not any faster than a swipe and tap really :)
[17:03] <kazord> dobey, imagine that dotbar is touchable zone, when you press, it record position, if u move left/right, it change scope
[17:03] <dobey> also the tabs will probably work better for kb/mouse interaction
[17:03] <kazord> until you move enough to release
[17:04] <dobey> kazord: but then you still have the same problem as just swiping left/right in the main view
[17:04] <kazord> and any icon/indicaiton on top of the bar can help you to stop on scope you wanted
[17:05] <dobey> also easy to run out of left/right movement in that case, if you have many scopes favorited
[17:06] <dobey> anyway, session over; gotta do real work for a while now :)
[17:06] <kazord> left -> position divided in scope number on left, position -> right divied in
[17:06] <kazord> is scope source code somewhere ?
[17:06] <dobey> unity8 is yes
[17:07] <dobey> ubuntu is open source, the code is in the archives, and projects hosted on launchpad
[17:08] <kazord> yeah but sometimes hard to find an app inside a full project
[17:09] <kazord> (like scope inside unity8)
[17:09] <kazord> i will search this dotline :)
[17:11] <dobey> cheers :)