[08:05] <Laney> hidehi
[08:12] <willcooke> g'mornin' Laney
[08:14] <Laney> hi willcooke
[08:14] <Laney> what go?
[08:14] <willcooke> last day of UOS
[08:14] <willcooke> huzzah
[08:14] <willcooke> think I'm going to get a hair cut this morning
[08:14] <Laney> changing the world one hangout at a time
[08:14] <willcooke> you knowns it
[08:14] <willcooke> knows
[08:14] <Laney> voted yet?
[08:14] <willcooke> oh yes!  that too
[08:15] <willcooke> I shall do so on my hair to get a hair cut I think
[08:15] <Laney> i went to a hustings last night
[08:15] <willcooke> I have seen none of the candidates canvasing at all
[08:15] <Laney> some protesters disrupted it at the end
[08:15] <willcooke> yay!
[08:15] <Laney> other than that it was the worst
[08:15] <Laney> I'm going to spoil my ballot
[08:15]  * Laney looks at chrisccoulson 
[08:15] <willcooke> Awesome!
[08:16] <willcooke> going for the classic "cock and balls"?
[08:16] <Laney> haha
[08:16] <Laney> I was thinking about appealing to the conscience of the counter
[08:16] <willcooke> :D
[08:16] <Laney> "get up and leave the room now"
[08:16] <willcooke> take the ballots with you and throw them in a pond
[08:17] <Laney> bloody PCCs
[08:17] <Laney> anything interesting is "operational" and not a matter for them
[08:18] <davmor2> willcooke: he's a geek he can't throw, he'll wind up keeping hold of it and throw himself in the pond. Laney don't listen to willcooke he's just trying to get you wet
[08:18] <willcooke> I meant the counter
[08:19] <Laney> I could put a steak on a stick and tempt them all into the pond
[08:19] <davmor2> willcooke: see that's how a geeks brain works :D
[08:20] <Laney> or maybe my ballot on a rope dnangling over the pond would be more attractive to an election counter
[08:21]  * Laney votes for davmor2 instead
[08:23] <davmor2> Laney: Europe is already broke they don't need my help ;)
[08:30] <willcooke> going to get a haircut, bbl
[08:30] <Laney> hf
[08:58]  * Laney gets trello-y
[09:03] <willcooke> bah, closed
[09:04] <willcooke> I'll try again tomorrow
[09:23] <willcooke> screw this, I'm buying an Intel wifi card
[09:25] <willcooke> oh, 3 quid on ebay
[09:25] <willcooke> should have done this a long time ago
[09:35] <andyrock> morning all
[09:38] <Laney> xnox: NEO doesn't support 4096R?
[09:38] <Laney> hi andyrock!
[09:39] <willcooke> hi andyrock
[09:45] <chrisccoulson> HI Laney
[09:45] <chrisccoulson> I'm not even bothering with that today - I think it's only PCC elections here.
[09:46] <chrisccoulson> I don't even know where my polling station is ;)
[09:48] <Laney> that's all we have too
[09:48] <Laney> nice walk in the sun if nothing else
[09:57] <willcooke> man, what is up with the progressbars
[09:58] <willcooke> the styling isn't being applied properly, and the background colour seems to be defaulting to transparent
[09:58] <willcooke> I've checked the theme, and the CSS is correct and does apply in the inspector
[09:58] <willcooke> so must be a specificity thing (again)
[10:34] <attente> Laney: hey, so g-s is blocked from being sru'd because of this apparently: https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/58f08ffc3281621f3df0ae8b636df69edadf0f02. it doesn't seem like it was introduced in the version just uploaded, but it seems like it might be occurring more often than before
[10:37] <Laney> attente: did you get one of those automated emails?
[10:38] <attente> Laney: yeah
[10:38] <Laney> holy early morning
[10:38] <Laney> attente: doesn't look like a regressio nto me
[10:38] <Laney> I'd reply and say that
[10:38] <Laney> don't know what the problem is though, do you?
[10:39] <Laney> no TagF?
[10:40] <attente> hard to tell...
[10:40] <Laney> might be sensible to check that
[10:43] <Laney> like maybe if the PkgF.Open fails
[10:43] <Laney> file:///usr/share/doc/libapt-pkg-doc/html/classFileFd.xhtml
[10:43] <Laney> it returns a bool
[10:44] <attente> not sure how TagF can be invalid here
[10:46] <Laney> I think just check at 376 and fail with an error if the Open() doesn't work
[10:46] <Laney> can't think of another reason
[10:46] <attente> wouldn't the backtrace fail in the Jump function?
[10:46] <Laney> other than trying to make a tagfile from a not opened FileFD
[10:49] <Laney> or a malloc failure or something
[11:54] <GunnarHj> Hi Laney, and chance you can sponsor bug #1575555?
[11:57] <Laney> GunnarHj: I can look after lunch
[11:57] <Laney> is it just a case of backporting y to x?
[11:57] <GunnarHj> Laney: Great. Yes, backporting or upload from PPA - your choise.
[11:58] <Laney> k
[12:10] <pitti> Good morning
[12:17] <willcooke> morning pitti
[12:20] <pitti> hey willcooke
[13:17] <willcooke> attente, around?
[13:18] <dholbach> willcooke, attente: have you seen something like http://paste.ubuntu.com/16237898/ with gnome-software already?
[13:18] <dholbach> dpm, ^
[13:19] <dholbach> it looks like I get no apt/dpkg results
[13:19] <attente> willcooke: hey
[13:19] <willcooke> heh, so basically, what dholbach said :)
[13:19] <willcooke> I'm just running through some troubleshooting with dpm now
[13:19] <dholbach> ah ok
[13:20] <willcooke> dholbach, is it broken for both of you?  cos wfm
[13:20] <attente> can you try running it with a strace+grep to see what file it's trying to open?
[13:20] <dpm> attente, willcooke, is this the right version? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/16237931/
[13:21] <dpm> willcooke, yeah, we were on a call preparing the demo and it's broken for both of us
[13:21] <willcooke> dpm, correct version
[13:21] <dpm> attente, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/16237826/
[13:21] <willcooke> dpm, what does "snap find hello" return?
[13:22] <dpm> Name         Version  Summary
[13:22] <dpm> hello-world  6.0      Hello world example
[13:22] <attente> dpm: does this still happen after killing it and re-starting?
[13:23] <dpm> attente, yes, tried to killall and restart multiple times
[13:23] <dholbach> attente, output of strace -eopen,stat gnome-software (http://paste.ubuntu.com/16237969/)
[13:23] <willcooke> dpm, what app are you searching for?
[13:23] <attente> dpm: can you try doing an apt-cache update and restarting?
[13:23] <dpm> willcooke, I was just searching "calculator"
[13:24] <dpm> attente, restarting what?
[13:24] <attente> dpm: restarting gnome-software
[13:25] <dpm> attente, I guess you mean 'apt update'? Tried that already
[13:25] <dholbach> apt update and restarting gnome-software doesn't help in my case
[13:25] <willcooke> dpm "snap find calculator" == "no snaps found for calculator"
[13:25] <attente> yeah, sorry
[13:25] <attente> apt update
[13:25] <dholbach> I also tried to remove cache/config files of gnome-software, just to be sure it wasn't some old broken config
[13:25] <dholbach> but that also didn't help
[13:26] <dholbach> did we catch other bugs which said "failed to start fwupd" somewhere?
[13:26] <dpm> willcooke, I think that's a known bug with the 'find' CLI command, as the snap name is 'ubuntu-calculator-app', but up until today g-s found it by just searching for "calculator"
[13:26] <seb128> good afternoon desktopers!
[13:26] <dholbach> salut seb128
[13:27] <willcooke> dpm,  and so if you search for "ubuntu-cal" in g-s what happens?
[13:27] <seb128> hey dholbach
[13:27] <seb128> dpm, I joined in the middle, but substring matching for g-s/snap query never worked, if that's the topic
[13:27] <dpm> willcooke, that shows me 2 results now
[13:27] <dholbach> seb128, tout est cassé :)
[13:27] <dpm> hey seb128, afternoon!
[13:28] <seb128> dholbach, oui, snapcrap fault!  ;-)
[13:28] <dholbach> haha
[13:28] <dholbach> for me gnome-software shows no apt/dpkg apps at all
[13:28] <dholbach> just the snaps I have installed
[13:28] <xnox> Laney, v4 yes, previous no.
[13:28] <dpm> seb128, it did work, I have proof! :)
[13:28] <xnox> Laney, hence it's my sub-key only at 2k
[13:28] <dpm> seb128, -> https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/desktop/get-started/
[13:28] <xnox> xnox, so yeah.
[13:29] <Laney> xnox: no neo v4 though?
[13:29] <xnox> Laney, not yet
[13:29] <seb128> dpm, maybe before snappy->snapd
[13:29] <xnox> they switched the vendor and rumour has it, the nfc v4 (or i guess v5 will come)
[13:29] <seb128> dpm, in any case it's a store issue, not a g-s one
[13:29] <Laney> nice
[13:29] <seb128> dholbach, weird, do you have a debuglog to share?
[13:30] <seb128> the channel is more active that I though
[13:30] <seb128> today is not a bank holiday in the u.k I guess?
[13:30] <Laney> hi seb128
[13:30] <Laney> we had that on monday
[13:30] <seb128> hey Laney
[13:30] <seb128> monday was for the 1st of may right?
[13:30] <willcooke> dpm, can you install one of the two results you have now?
[13:31] <seb128> today is assumption day
[13:31] <seb128> ascension
[13:31] <seb128> doh
[13:32] <seb128> dholbach, isn't it a vac for you?
[13:32] <dholbach> seb128, output of strace -eopen,stat gnome-software (http://paste.ubuntu.com/16237969/)
[13:32] <Laney> yes it's a replacement one
[13:32] <seb128> I see
[13:32] <seb128> dholbach, no normal log?
[13:32] <dholbach> seb128, http://paste.ubuntu.com/16237898/
[13:33] <dpm> willcooke, will try in a bit, need to jump on a call, will be filing some bugs :)
[13:34] <seb128> dholbach, did you try to kill the running instance? that log looks like it's not starting but exiting on favor or an existing one
[13:34] <dholbach> seb128, yes, several times
[13:34] <seb128> dholbach, can you kill it and get a log with --verbose?
[13:34] <dholbach> I also removed its cache and config
[13:35] <seb128> Laney, did you try helping dholbach already? (I just joined and start wondering how much debugging there was before that)
[13:35] <willcooke> dholbach, is your issue the same as dpm - in that it used to find ubuntu-calculator if you just searched for "calculator" and now it doesnt?  What happens if you search for "ubuntu-cal" - does it show up then
[13:35] <Laney> seb128: no, I don't want to join the fight here, I just came back from lunch
[13:35] <seb128> Laney, k
[13:35] <Laney> attente was involved
[13:36] <dholbach> willcooke, 'ubuntu-cal' works for me, my problem is that no apt/dpkg packages are shown
[13:37] <seb128> dholbach, can you get the verbose log? ;-)
[13:37] <dholbach> on it
[13:37] <dholbach> but in a call
[13:38] <dholbach> attente, seb128: http://paste.ubuntu.com/16238226/
[13:38] <attente> dholbach: anything in /var/cache/app-info?
[13:39] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16238236/
[13:39] <attente> dholbach: /var/lib/app-info too?
[13:39] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16238249/
[13:39] <willcooke> dholbach, do you have the U8 session installed as well?
[13:39] <dholbach> yes
[13:39] <willcooke> :)
[13:40] <willcooke> I wonder
[13:40] <willcooke> could be the first fall out from the PK thing seb128? When you pull in U8
[13:41] <seb128> willcooke, I was starting to think the same
[13:41] <seb128> dholbach, dpkg -l | grep aptdaemon
[13:42] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16238284/
[13:43] <seb128> dholbach, your full log doesn't have the failed to open error and seems to list quite some content
[13:43] <dholbach> they went to stderr
[13:44] <dholbach> they are the same as what's in the log I pasted earlier
[13:44] <dholbach> seb128, UOS is not a vac :)
[13:44] <seb128> dholbach, yeah, tell me :-/
[13:44]  * dholbach hugs seb128 
[13:44]  * seb128 hugs dholbach back
[13:46] <seb128> attente, dholbach, everything in that log is kind "unknown"
[13:46] <seb128> dholbach, when did the issue start?
[13:47] <dholbach> let me know if there's anything else I can try to do
[13:47] <dholbach> I don't know - I haven't used it much
[13:47] <attente> seb128: are you reproducing it too?
[13:47] <dholbach> I just tried it earlier to prepare for a demo with dpm
[13:47] <seb128> attente, no
[13:48] <attente> dholbach: and apt update, killing g-s, starting g-s didn't do anything?
[13:48] <dholbach> no
[13:48] <dholbach> I was up to date
[13:48] <dholbach> and restarted my machine even
[13:49] <Laney> appstreamcli search .
[13:50] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16238415/
[13:55] <seb128> dholbach, what ubuntu serie do you use?
[13:55] <dholbach> xenial
[13:55] <seb128> can you share syslog?
[13:55] <attente> what's that u8 pk change that happened?
[13:56] <attente> is it supposed to remove aptdaemon or something?
[13:56] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16238523/
[13:56] <seb128> attente, it removes the pkgkitcompat layer
[14:00] <attente> so i'm fully up-to-date. what package should i install to try to reproduce?
[14:01] <seb128> attente, unsure if that's something where you install a package to reproduce, that was a random guess I think
[14:01] <Laney> those 'failed to call' messages are probably the thing to debug
[14:02] <seb128> right
[14:04] <seb128> dholbach, ls -ld /var/lib/app-info ?
[14:05] <dholbach> drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 Apr 19 15:05 /var/lib/app-info
[14:06] <dholbach> attente, unity8-desktop-session-mir maybe(?), if it's about unity8
[14:06] <seb128> dholbach,
[14:06] <seb128> appstreamcli dump vlc.desktop
[14:07] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16238714/
[14:07] <pitti> seb128, xnox: meh, got double-booked with a Mark session on our UOS session upstart
[14:07] <pitti> I asked to move it, but you might need to start without me
[14:08] <seb128> pitti, hum, k, if you can't be there we better reschedule I think?
[14:08] <seb128> Laney, attente, where is the gs "kind" info coming from?
[14:10] <Laney> plugins set it once they figure out what kind a component is
[14:10] <xnox> pitti, i noticed
[14:13] <seb128> dholbach, do you get the same issue in a guest session?
[14:13] <dholbach> seb128, I won't be able to try today, to busy because of UOS
[14:13] <dholbach> s/to/too
[14:14] <seb128> dholbach, sorry  I've no idea about that issue
[14:15] <Laney> normally the appstream plugin is responsible for making application objects and setting them to be desktop applications (the ones we normally show)
[14:15] <dholbach> yeah... I don't know either
[14:15] <dholbach> gnome-software just shows snaps right now
[14:15] <seb128> so it all goes down to appstream failing to load on a no such file or directory
[14:15] <Laney> I think you want to attack this directly and find out why you're getting those messages
[14:15] <seb128> right, no idea about that though
[14:15] <seb128> the files are there on disk and permissions are ok
[14:15] <seb128> appstreamcli find them
[14:15] <seb128> and strace doesn't show anything weird
[14:16] <Laney> sure
[14:16] <Laney> that's why more debugging is required
[14:16] <seb128> failed to call gs_plugin_refine on appstream: Error opening file: No such file or directory
[14:16] <willcooke> seb128, worth reinstalling the compat layer just to see what happens?
[14:16] <Laney> can't do that without being able to reproduce though
[14:16] <Laney> :(
[14:16] <seb128> do we know what file exactly it's trying to open?
[14:16] <Laney> that is the debugging
[14:19] <Laney> you need to trace gs_plugin_refine_app in src/plugins/gs-plugin-appstream.c and find out where the error comes from
[14:20] <seb128> dholbach, can you strace -f gnome-software and share the log?
[14:22] <dholbach> the log is like 30M already and the UI didn't even come up yet
[14:23] <seb128> dholbach, ctrl-C, gzip?
[14:23] <seb128> or do it again but ctrl-C after 10s
[14:23] <GunnarHj> Laney: A friendly reminder of that bug...
[14:24] <Laney> No need
[14:25] <dholbach> seb128, http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/log.gz
[14:26] <seb128> dholbach, danke
[14:26] <dholbach> de rien
[14:31] <attente> dholbach: any chance you're on a metered wifi connection?
[14:31] <dholbach> attente, metered?
[14:31] <dholbach> I'm on wifi at home
[14:31] <attente> dholbach: just speculating if the refresh is doing something differently in case you're on 3g
[14:32] <dholbach> ah ok
[14:32] <attente> but guess not
[14:32] <dholbach> no, that shouldn't be the case
[14:33] <seb128> dholbach, is /var/lib/app-info/yaml/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_xenial_main_dep11_Components-amd64.yml.gz pointing to a valid file?
[14:33] <seb128> and how big is that file?
[14:33] <dholbach> ah no
[14:33] <dholbach> points to /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_xenial_main_dep11_Components-amd64.yml.gz which does not exist
[14:33] <dholbach> ah... I guess I moved from archive.u.c to de.archive.u.c at some stage
[14:33] <dholbach> maybe that's why(?)
[14:34] <seb128> did you try to click on the "refresh" button in g-s?
[14:34] <seb128> on the top left
[14:34] <seb128> attente, Laney, when are those /var/lib/app-info/yaml links updated?
[14:35] <dholbach> where is the refresh button?
[14:35] <seb128> if you go to the updates tab
[14:35] <attente> should be during an apt update. refreshing with the button on the updates tab should trigger it though
[14:35] <seb128> in the top left
[14:35] <seb128> dholbach, can you copy the log of a sudo apt-get update as well?
[14:35] <seb128> see if you have warnings/errors there
[14:36] <seb128> I wonder if you have that bug where an invalid repo is breaking the update
[14:36] <dholbach> the update is taking ages
[14:36] <dholbach> in g-s
[14:36] <dholbach> now it says "it's all up to date"
[14:36] <dholbach> and the broken symlinks are still there
[14:36] <seb128> k
[14:37] <seb128> sudo apt-get update | pastebininit :p
[14:37] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16239267/
[14:37] <seb128> iz mvo's fault!
[14:37] <seb128> dholbach, does it fix it if you disable the spotify repo and do another update?
[14:37] <dholbach> let me see
[14:39] <dholbach> the symlinks are now up to date
[14:39] <seb128> and g-s works I guess?
[14:39] <dholbach> yes, it took a while to load
[14:39] <dholbach> but it looks good now
[14:39] <seb128> k
[14:39] <seb128> so we figured it out!
[14:40] <attente> so is appstreamcli refresh not getting called when apt update fails?
[14:40] <dholbach> dpm, issue found, tldr: apt repos with weaker security break appstreamcli's data update, g-s gets confused over missing data
[14:40] <dholbach> attente, seb128: I'm sure that MANY users see this issue
[14:41] <dholbach> Laney, ^
[14:41] <seb128> yeah, ,likely
[14:42] <dholbach> can't appstreamcli just take the apt lists which are good and up to date?
[14:42] <Laney> apt is not calling appstreamcli
[14:43] <Laney> because it thinks the update failed
[14:43] <dholbach> mh
[14:43] <seb128> told yeah, iz mvo bog! :-)
[14:43] <attente> lol
[14:44] <seb128> yeah->ya
[14:44] <seb128> g-s could also give some clue that the index refresh is failing
[14:45] <attente> yeah
[14:45] <Laney> saying what?
[14:47] <seb128> "the package index update failed, check your sources?"
[14:48] <seb128> with maybe with a detail showing eventual E:
[14:48] <seb128> "E: The repository 'http://repository.spotify.com stable Release' does not have a Release file."
[14:48] <seb128> dunno
[14:48] <seb128> any error would be better than letting you hitting refresh again and again and not telling you it's failing
[14:53] <attente> i don't understand why g-s wouldn't work when appstreamcli search . was clearly working at the time
[14:53] <Laney> I imagine there's something that could be done, like
[14:54] <Laney>  - g-s knows there's no GsApps to display
[14:54] <Laney>  - try to refresh
[14:54] <Laney>  - if that fails, display some message
[14:54] <Laney> It sort of intersects with the first run work
[14:54] <Laney> Clearly needs design
[14:54] <Laney> and also clearly is not Ubuntu specific
[14:54] <seb128> right
[14:55] <Laney> In this case we should look for a solution that gets the index refreshed
[14:55] <Laney> attente: appstream-glib accesses the .yaml files itself
[14:55] <seb128> seems like dholbach had indexed in the apt dir
[14:55] <attente> should the appstream plugin try to do a refresh itself?
[14:55] <Laney> .yml.gz, whatevs
[14:55] <seb128> why are we not using those directly?
[14:55] <Laney> it doesn't use that same database
[14:56] <seb128> and relying on symlinks that might be wrong/outdated
[14:56] <seb128> but the /var/lib/app-info/yaml ones are symlinks, not different db
[14:56] <seb128> they just pointed to the wrong files in his case
[14:56] <Laney> I didn't say that they weren't symlnks.
[14:56] <Laney> I said that appstreamcli search is looking at a different thing to appstream-glib.
[14:57] <seb128> ah ok
[14:57] <Laney> Usually they coinciide (so it is a useful test), but not always
[14:57] <Laney> And I would imagine it's because appstream-glib doesn't want to know about apt's private directories
[14:57] <Laney> Probably it's valid for other things to put appstream in that place
[15:01] <xnox> pitti, seb128: i'm double booked too.... shall we move/postpone the upstart user session ?
[15:01] <pitti> hm, meh
[15:01] <seb128> xnox, pitti, +1
[15:01] <pitti> I guess we have to
[15:02] <seb128> Laney, attente, unsure if apt failing on invalid report is a bug or a feature? it could skip over those and get the update done anyway
[15:03] <seb128> need to check with mvo when he's around
[15:05] <attente> maybe it's actually more appropriate for the appstream plugin in gnome-software to actually refresh the cache itself instead of depending on apt to do it
[15:57] <mhall119> pitti: are you all set for your UOS session?
[15:57] <pitti> mhall119: sorry, no, double-booked with a Mark session on the sprint here
[15:57] <mhall119> is there someone else who can run it?
[15:59] <pitti> I don't actually know much about the session upstart rationale/integration, so if seb128 and xnox want to go along, please do
[15:59] <pitti> otherwise we need to postpone
[15:59] <pitti> sorry, sprint craziness
[15:59] <seb128> pitti, mhall119, xnox is also double booked and I didn't prepare much, better to postpone
[16:00] <mhall119> pitti: can you do it at 1800 UTC?
[16:04] <pitti> mhall119: WFM, if seb128 can do that too
[16:05] <mhall119> seb128: ?
[16:05] <seb128> mhall119, pitti, no, sorry, I've dinner plans that conflict :-/
[16:05] <pitti> I guess we'll talk about it next week then
[16:05] <seb128> but feel free to do it without me
[16:05] <mhall119> pitti: can we schedule it for ubuntuonair.com next week?
[16:05] <pitti> this is all desktop-y work, not much point without desktop guys aroud
[16:06] <pitti> we probably should just do a three-day sprint (virtual or real) for this
[16:06] <pitti> Laney, seb128, xnox and me perhaps
[16:07] <seb128> that would work as well
[16:07] <Laney> let's talk next week
[16:07]  * Laney isn't sure of the scope yet
[16:08] <pitti> seb128, Laney: who would actually have some knowledge about how the current system works?
[16:08] <Laney> which part?
[16:08] <pitti> i. e. rationale for moving so much stuff to upstart instead of dbus activation, etc.
[16:09] <pitti> Laney: well, everything :)
[16:09] <pitti> i .e. how the session starts under upstart, and converting gnome-session to upstart jobs, etc.
[16:09] <Laney> stgraber drove most of it I think
[16:09] <pitti> tedg?
[16:09] <Laney> I know how but can't really speak to why
[16:09] <Laney> just "make things event driven" probably
[16:10] <pitti> Laney: ah, so mirroring the phases of g-sessoin?
[16:10] <tedg> Yes, event driven was important, but also having logging and control.
[16:10] <tedg> We had for instance every indicator implementing logic for managing restarts for debugging.
[16:10] <pitti> (previous Mark session is running over, but unsure when our's starts)
[16:11] <seb128> pitti, tedg yes
[16:11] <tedg> Where we were able to remove all that code and just use Upstart
[16:12] <tedg> DBus activation also has some interesting race cases that we never solved. Those are largely fixed by systemd, but I'd not recommend dbus activation without systemd managing the bus.
[17:07] <Laney> byeeEEee
[17:07] <willcooke> see ya Laney
[19:44] <willcooke> gnight all