[00:31] <sakrecoer> \o/ +7 Rosco2
[09:04] <sakrecoer> autumna: i think what we have now on the wiki is remarkably excellent!
[09:05] <sakrecoer> you've done a really good job! 
[09:30] <zequence> Originally under graphics, but I added the missing metas so there's no confusion as to where to put things
[09:31] <zequence> We don't currently have a perfect "tree" structure for the metas. The audio metas do have the relationship as is in the wiki, but graphics is currently not depending on publishing
[09:31] <zequence> I have some ideas around that, based on earlier discussions and work
[09:32] <zequence> Will try to work something out, using more metas than we have now, but to maintain them - we need to tools, so need to revisit my apt source search tool
[10:20] <autumna> thanks sakrecoer. (and yeah *the way you sent yours* was what i was trying to say. )
[10:40] <sakrecoer> autumna: i was wondering how that would be used, but it makes sense put together like that. [C[C
[10:42] <sakrecoer> zequence: i'm inclined to think of book publishing as graphic design, (typography). but i guess that has little to no influence on how the packages are organized. however i can see both Calibre and pdf-shuffler in the graphics menu.
[10:43] <sakrecoer> i don't think calibre is ment to be used for writing the book itself.
[10:43] <sakrecoer> i'd be willing to say libreoffice is a tool of choice for the writing of a book.
[10:44] <sakrecoer> but admitedly, that is just me speculating. i haven't even ever thought about writing one so to speak
[10:45] <zequence> sakrecoer: Publishing is one thing. And, that is a graphical related work. Writing on the other hand is not.
[10:46] <sakrecoer> zequence: agreed
[10:46] <autumna> zequence: thank you for fixing that. completely forgot publishing had a separate package
[10:47] <zequence> plume-creator is a tool strictly used for creating stories, where you can keep track of characters, items, places and have your synopsis and other stuff in different compartments
[10:47] <autumna> sakrecoer: for writing libreoffice is great for medium sized documents but when you go novel size you want something that will manage multiple files and notes,that's sort of the point of novel writing software. :) 
[10:47] <zequence> But, you would be using something like Calibre to create an e-book out of it
[10:48] <autumna> calibre is slowly turning into ebook's version of blender. *chuckles*
[10:49] <zequence> Though our metas "audio", "graphics" and "video" all are also freedesktop categories, I regard of them more as workflows.
[10:49] <sakrecoer> zequence: oh wow! of course, what a thing for writers! very cool
[10:49] <zequence> With that logic in mind, we could add another one called "writing"
[10:50] <sakrecoer> that is good idea, although i can't really measure what kindof workload that would represent yet..
[10:51] <zequence> Writers are interested in tools that both help in them creating the stories, but also in making publications of them, so it would also depend on "publishing" because of that
[10:51] <sakrecoer> autumna: hehe, nice argument :D
[10:51] <autumna> :D
[10:52] <autumna> it is true. both in terms of being feature rich and ridiculously steep learning curve in places and confusion
[10:52] <autumna> zequence: that is a good point, especially with number of writers self publishing. 
[10:52] <sakrecoer> yeah, i was hopeing my stepmom would be able to use calibre herself, but that didn't happen
[10:52] <sakrecoer> anyways her device was not recognized.. :/
[10:55] <autumna> probably needed to install a plugin. (I can go on more about it on offtopic)
[10:56] <autumna> but really scribus is not a replacement to calibre I'd argue, even with a plugin
[10:57] <knome> zequence, sakrecoer: at this point, i'll /part; i'll be around on the xubuntu channels and PM if you need help with the website stuff
[10:57] <knome> o/
[11:01] <autumna> just sent an email on the topic. I will be back in an hour or so. :) 
[11:01] <autumna> *waves after knome*
[11:26] <sakrecoer> yeah, that email makes a lot of sense autumna 
[11:27] <sakrecoer> have a nice afternoon!
[11:27] <sakrecoer> cfhowlett 's polish campaign is getting echo :)
[11:35] <autumna> *back*
[11:37] <autumna> zequence: sakrecoer: btw in terms of new meta packages one thing to think about is game-development package (obviously this wouldn't be for 16.10 but further in future)
[11:40]  * autumna drops the idea and runs away
[11:40] <zequence> autumna: Keep that in mind. Coding in itself I do not falls under creative work, though it is used to make creative work happen (so, it's kind of hard to categorize that in some ways), and perhaps the other parts fall under "graphics" and "video"
[11:41] <zequence> You could definitely regard Game Development as a whole as an artistic workflow
[11:41] <zequence> But, the question is from which angle should we add that to our thing
[11:41] <autumna> the software that started that thread of thought was twine which is used to create hypertext adventures/IFs it is not graphical (well you can add graphics) it is not coding (although the software allows some macros). Publishing? *cringes*
[11:41] <sakrecoer> *caugh* blender *caugh* :D
[11:43] <autumna> zequence: there is a interaction design, level design etc side to game development. there isn't many alternatives to unity and similar commercial engines yet, but as sakrecoer just said blender already has a game engine and there might be more. :D
[11:43] <zequence> Well, if we were to introduce a meta called ubuntustudio-writing, I suppose it would be quite logical to add one called ubuntustudio-game-development as well
[11:44] <autumna> *nods* as I said we are not there yet, but just food for thought. 
[11:44] <zequence> The meta doesn't need to correspond with where things end up in the menu, since the menu does not follow workflows. The menu follows tool types, while our metas could be more towards workflows
[11:45] <sakrecoer> i'm in favour. although i don't realy know how i could help you..
[11:47] <autumna> zequence: nods
[11:48] <autumna> sakrecoer: yeah I am not even sure what help is there now. after I finish my backlog I want to do an overview of what is out there in terms of game workflows outside commerical options
[11:48] <autumna> commercial* why am I failing in typing today? *sighs*
[11:49] <zequence> The idea of web site design has also been discussed at times, but there's a similar problem there. But, perhaps we can find a way to integrate that sort of thing as well
[11:49] <autumna> there could be an argument to a "design" meta?
[11:49] <autumna> or interaction design meta? rather than splitting it game etc
[11:50] <zequence> The more we expand Ubuntu Studio, the more important the installer options will be, and finally - a CD size installer will probably be almost a necessity for people who don't want the whole package, but prefer to install what they need over the internet
[11:51] <zequence> The different metas can absolutely depend on the same packages to a degree, so that is not a problem
[11:51] <zequence> One package can be in 2-4 different workflows even
[11:51] <autumna> when you say installer option, do you mean the having a convenient place to add/remove packages? or having a different version of the live cd or both?
[11:52] <autumna> zequence: with a case such as blender, I don't think there is any way to avoid it anyway :D
[11:52] <zequence> autumna: The current ubiquity plugin which let's you select specific packages is a bit dull and not easy to work with. It needs to become smarter.
[11:53] <zequence> autumna: But, also, we need another Image, a smaller one, which only has the live DE and some core stuff, which you can use for testing, and then install the rest over the internet using the installer
[11:53] <zequence> I've prepared for that already, but have not cracked all that is needed to make that happen
[11:53] <autumna> *nods*
[11:53] <zequence> And, my lack of time will make this a long term project, unless someone else can do it
[11:54] <autumna> I really don't want to commit myself to anything until website and the wacom setup thing is finalized, (unless everyone feels this is a bigger priority)
[11:55] <zequence> I would say the website is probably the biggest priority for the time being
[11:55] <autumna> *nods*
[11:55] <autumna> it is my first priority at the moment
[11:57] <autumna> zequence: do you have any input btw on what has been discussed so far?
[12:00] <zequence> autumna: I haven't followed the website work so much. But, I'm sure you guys can work it out :)
[12:01] <zequence> Let me know if there are som pages to look at, and I can give some feedback.
[12:01] <autumna> right now we are mostly discussing our users and their needs and so that we can build website content based on that.
[12:01] <zequence> Sounds reasonable
[12:02] <autumna> :)
[12:03] <autumna> some of the work we are doing with the personas might actually end up being useful on the meta-package and installer discussion as well
[12:04] <zequence> I'm not so sure about that myself, though. We can't educate our users using the meta packages. We need to do that with documentation, and the best way is probably doing video tutorials
[12:04] <autumna> because in a lot of the way, from the user point of view, website and interface we give in the installer, etc are all part of the same flow for the users, and things to be thought in coordination with each other. (something I hadn't realized) 
[12:06] <zequence> Yes, the categorization of the feature tour, and documentation should in some way follow the metas
[12:06] <zequence> But, not the menu.
[12:06] <zequence> The menu should only follow freedesktop categorization, as is meant
[12:06] <autumna> *nods* oh no I agree with that. 
[12:07]  * zequence is just mentioning that, because some people have had different opinions in the past
[12:07] <autumna> re menu I am happy as long as everything is not piling under media players :D
[12:08] <zequence> I do think that our website could be a portal for education even. Both in the documentation we provide, but also if we would expand the posting of news to include more general things within the FLOSS multimedia world
[12:08] <autumna> *nods*
[12:09] <autumna> exactly
[12:09] <zequence> That has been my aim for a long time, but my time was spent more on other things, and we never had a person who was dedicated towards only that, which is almost required
[12:10] <zequence> At least, we need to get some video tutorials done soon. I'm going to be making a few on the subject of audio in the coming months
[12:10] <autumna> I don't want us to aim to just create a documentation that will be static with content creation. my hope (and this is getting ahead of the discussion a little but) that we will have a structure with basics in, then have a workflow to steadily add more information and eventually (hopefully bring in our users and other linux multimedia users to write in depth articles)
[12:10] <zequence> We can always link to outside material too
[12:10] <zequence> No reason to reinvent the wheel
[12:11] <zequence> But, for the more basic stuff, from Ubuntu Studio POW, using our menu, tools, and applications, it's good to have some video tutorials. Especially for audio, which is the most difficult to master
[12:11] <autumna> *nods*
[12:11] <zequence> Other workflows are more based on learning the one application you want to use
[12:12] <autumna> there just isn't a lot of information out there. (I do think though is that for graphics people don't realize how much is possible)
[12:12] <autumna> actually that is not necessarily true. :D
[12:12] <zequence> Well, maybe not, but for audio you really need to understand the audio subsystems to a degree, or you'll be cursing a lot
[12:12] <autumna> yes!
[12:13] <autumna> zequence: believe me I will be the first person to watch those videos *chuckles*
[12:13] <autumna> I think what is needed actually is more.. like..
[12:13] <zequence> For graphics and video it may be important to know how to install codecs(also true for audio) and video drivers. Kind of basic stuff, just to get going with your work
[12:14] <autumna> actually are you thinking more software overview or actually how to do professional audio development using ubuntu studio (e.g. teaching basics that are software independent)
[12:14] <autumna> because the latter would be super cool
[12:15] <zequence> I will start by teaching the users how to start simple applications. Just getting jack to work is quite a lot of work.
[12:15] <autumna> *nods* yes, for video especially, also a review of what various software can do for you. (like most people don't realize blender can do video editing, or what are the pros and cons of various software.)
[12:15] <zequence> But, perhaps I will do a series on recording and mixing with ardour as well (it's generic, but you also need a good tool to show generic stuff)
[12:16] <zequence> Or, the basics of audio editing in Audacity
[12:16] <zequence> ..which is our only included audio editor
[12:16] <autumna> that would be cool, but what is not obvious to people are also things like: whatis sample rate, what is bitrate. what are the best settings, these things come up across all software. or for example what is reverb etc.. 
[12:17] <autumna> is there any other good alternatives as audio editor out there?
[12:19] <zequence> Audacity is by far the most used audio application out there (except for VLC), so for audio editing, there's no reason to present alternatives
[12:19] <zequence> As for educating the user on 1) digital audio 2) audio processing, that could be done too, sure.
[12:20] <autumna> (don't get me wrong, I LOVE audacity :D) 
[12:20] <zequence> We should do a feature definition on the documentation bit, and add things there - what we should create ourselves, and what we should link to from already existing education
[12:21] <autumna> I think like something focusing on workflow for beginners could really bring in people to ubuntu studio to start and stay with it, beyond "here is a floss alternative" which is tying to something sakrecoer was mentioning other day.
[12:21] <zequence> No reason to reinvent the wheel, when not necessary.
[12:21] <autumna> agreed
[12:22] <autumna> and as I said I think this is a very long term project of perhaps doing series of posts one blog post at a time. sometimes highlighting other resources that exists as you said, sometimes maybe hopefully inviting guest bloggers in?
[12:23] <autumna> *is excited*
[12:23] <zequence> IMO, it is quite enough to hilight already existing resources, unless someone actually wants to write blog posts
[12:25] <zequence> I would not feel I have time for that, at least.
[12:26] <autumna> it was my plan coming in..
[12:26] <autumna> :D
[12:27] <autumna> before you know accidentally getting involved in more technical side of work. 
[12:27] <autumna> I expect eventually that it might be a dedicated job for somebody to be in charge of that. whoever it may be.
[12:28] <autumna> well not writing blog posts, coordinating them, but I think linking to existing resources is plenty as well
[12:41] <zequence> autumna: Yes, we could use someone who is handling the whole PR part, both linking to interesting new stuff, but also writing announcements and keeping in touch with our users (following what they are saying or discussing in regards of Ubuntu Studio)
[13:14] <zequence> autumna: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UserDocumentation
[13:14] <autumna> *goes to read*
[13:16] <autumna> in terms of lmms: there is a terrific youtube series out there, even through it isn't strictly open source software focused
[13:17] <zequence> autumna: You can just add one there that says something like "using LMMS", or whatever they call it, and link to it
[13:18] <zequence> But, I guess if the tutorial maker is using something else than Ubuntu Studio, even something else than Linux...
[13:18] <autumna> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNjV-O4OTSU&list=PLA269719916DB3C29&index=1 (like it is dissapointing that he doesn't use zynaddsubfx - oh ok)
[13:18] <zequence> Well, it goes under Audio in either case
[13:20] <zequence> Becomes problematic when including non free tools. You might not be able to id in Ubuntu Studio
[13:20] <zequence> If you can't follow the tutorial on Ubuntu Studio and do the same things, then it sort of becomes irrelevant for our case
[13:21] <zequence> I think you should add it anyway. Everything needs to be reviewed before publishing, so just because it ends up on the feature definition page doesn't mean it's going to happen for real :)
[13:22] <autumna> yeah I'd add it with caveat that somebody must look it over. I don't think he uses anything paid, just vsts. when he could be using the existing synths
[13:22] <autumna> the style in later season also gets a little.. different
[13:22] <zequence> I haven't ever tried vst's on Linux, but it is possible to use them - and there are free vst's after all, so we should probably add some docs on that too
[13:23] <autumna> I do use them, even through usually it is a last resort. right now only one I use is for microtuning
[13:23] <autumna> because lmms or its soundfont plugin doesn't allow you to do that
[13:24] <zequence> autumna: To use something else than Western tuning, or just for the sake of microtonality?
[13:25] <autumna> zequence: to use something other than western tuning mostly. (both middle eastern makam like structure, also it is fun to play with ancient stuff :D)
[13:26] <zequence> I have done too little of that myself. I do some microtonality, but I use the midi pitch wheel control for that
[13:27] <zequence> Ok, I have no more time for this today, so going to have to leave things at that :)
[13:27] <autumna> zynAddSubFx does it.. but that only works with that. midi pitch wheel.. yeah theorically I could use that, but it would get quite tedious. :D 
[13:28] <autumna> also sometimes nearly impossible if you are playing in real time
[13:30] <autumna> wait didn't ubuntu studio version of lmms come with vestige?
[13:31] <autumna> (I guess it didn't. *goes to fix*)
[13:31] <autumna> (for self**)
[14:19] <OvenWerks> just a quick note.... I would try to stay away from using the word "Game" anywhere for anything even if there are applications that help game development. My reason being that we may find ourselves having more people on support asking game questions than we can handle.
[14:20] <OvenWerks> In other words I have no problem with including applications made for making games but I do have a problem with advertising it :)
[14:30] <OvenWerks> autumna: there are some linux VSTs around, yes. Not very many free ones, but supporting VSTs means that a user can make good use of things they have bought. Showing tutorials that make use of vsts ... I would prefer not. It would be nice to package what free Linux VSTs are available though. http://linux-sound.org/linux-vst-plugins.html has a list. I would not include VSTs where there is a ladspa version... though perhaps if the is a LV2 
[14:32] <autumna> OvenWerks: yeah I was hesitant to link that tutorial for that reason. but a lot of what is said there can be ported to synths available in lmms. (I am seriously not sure why he just doesn't use the default ones)
[14:33] <OvenWerks> Bitwig and Tracktion (even linux versions) come as freebees with some audio HW.
[14:34] <autumna> in terms of games through, I understand your concern, yet games are quickly becoming an accepted art form, so I am not sure if it is worth hiding our support, if anything it can be an asset to bring in more people to use ubuntu studio. (that is one area where it is still hard to find a open source based workflow) and if anyone comes asking question about playing games, we can ignore them. this is not a gaming distro :)
[14:52] <zequence> As long as we don't start calling ourselves Ubuntu Studio Gaming Studio, I feel like we should be fine
[14:57] <autumna> lol
[14:57] <autumna> actually I think we should do that.. once.. on April 1, 2017 ;D
[15:13] <autumna> there are some cool plugins in that list
[15:13] <autumna> *eyes the one that makes vsts work with jack-midi (not that jack-midi is that commonly needed)
[15:13] <autumna> (in my experience at least)
[15:19] <zequence> alsa midi is next to useless in many situations, especially when dealing with external hardware. It's not even close to syncing. But, unfortunately jack midi only works with firewire devices that have midi
[15:21] <zequence> (which is ok for me, since I have a firewire device from which to connect to my external synthesizer)
[15:25] <zequence> There are other issues with ALSA midi too. I hade the same bug in 2 or 3 different sequencers when doing multiple time changes and tempo changes. It would miss some notes for some reason
[15:26] <zequence> Think it was the first note in a bar, but only now and again
[15:26] <zequence> Haven't had any issues at all with jack midi so far
[15:28] <sakrecoer> in my experience, tempo change and midi hate each other... :D
[15:29] <sakrecoer> even back with cubase and reason, it would never react as programmed..
[15:29] <zequence> I've worked quite a lot in Cubase with little problems
[15:30] <zequence> This was in Cubase SX and later.
[15:30] <zequence> Only time it gave me trouble was when I had about 1h worth of midi, and a lot of it
[15:31] <zequence> The CPU couldn't deal with it anymore
[15:31] <sakrecoer> sure, cubase sx was a tank but tempochan was my only problem, specifically gradual changes. abrupt changes had no problem
[15:32] <zequence> Well, yeah, you need to add the changes per event (like every 4th)
[15:32] <zequence> (or every 16th)
[15:32] <zequence> Yes, there was no linear tool for that, I don't think
[15:33] <zequence> But, it still would work
[15:58] <zequence> sakrecoer: Did you ever use Sonar?
[15:59] <zequence> A friend of mine did, must be 15 years ago now. It had some nice features. It's available through Steam now, and is being marketed as the best DAW for game development, coincidentally
[15:59] <zequence> ..but, still also for general music production as well
[16:01] <autumna> *listens*
[19:49] <sakrecoer> zequence: i have used sonar, but only once in a freinds studio
[20:08] <sakrecoer> zequence, autumna: you guys <3 UserDoc feature definition page looks amazing!
[20:08] <sakrecoer> promissing start!
[20:09] <autumna> sakrecoer: it is zequence's work but yeah it is amazing. I will try to think of some stuff to begin listing under graphics category
[20:16] <sakrecoer> autumna: cool, i'll try to think of some stuff for video
[20:17] <autumna> :)
[20:17] <autumna> is editing a menu content, breaking the menu for other people too? 
[20:20] <sakrecoer> which menu?
[20:21] <autumna> as an example: (1) go to Menu Editor
[20:21] <autumna> (2) find LMMS, add an option to its launching command (e.g. instead of lmms now it is lmms -s 48000) 
[20:22] <autumna> (3) open your application menu to find that all ubuntustudio specific folders have vanished with the exception of "Audio" which only has lmms in it
[20:22] <autumna> removing the custom menu file from ~/.config/menus reverts the change
[20:23] <autumna> I mean I am going to file a bug, obviously but how is it managing to break it? *is stumped* 
[20:23] <autumna> *stumped? confused?*
[20:27] <sakrecoer> hmm... my lmms has way more in the command as lmms..
[20:27] <sakrecoer> "env QT_X11_NO_NATIVE_MENUBAR=1 lmms %f"
[20:28] <sakrecoer> what does "%f" stand for?
[20:29] <autumna> well obviousy
[20:29] <autumna> I mean that's there for all of the menu items
[20:29] <sakrecoer> well, i changed it to "env QT_X11_NO_NATIVE_MENUBAR=1 lmms -s 48000 %f" and nothing broke...
[20:30] <autumna> check your menu
[20:30] <autumna> is graphics and video folders still there?
[20:30] <sakrecoer> right..
[20:30] <autumna> :)
[20:30] <sakrecoer> still there, but very much empty
[20:30] <autumna> ok that's different, I don't have them period
[20:31] <sakrecoer> no my bad.. they are gone.. 
[20:31] <autumna> this is so weird, is it even supposed to edit the xml file? I thought the command options were in desktop files.
[20:32] <sakrecoer> i din't know, but its weird...
[20:32] <autumna> ok this gets weirder
[20:32] <autumna> go to ~/.config/menus
[20:33] <autumna> rename xfce-applications.menu to xfce-applications.menu
[20:33] <autumna> err
[20:33] <autumna> *xfce-applications.menu.broken
[20:33] <autumna> now you have 2 audio folders
[20:34] <sakrecoer> hehe...
[20:34] <sakrecoer> yeah...
[20:35] <autumna> *heh
[20:35] <sakrecoer> the there is ~/.config/menus/applications-merged/user-ubuntustudio-audioproduction.menu
[20:35] <sakrecoer> then*
[20:36] <sakrecoer> i'd say that menu editor is sentient
[20:36] <autumna> hahah yeah
[20:36] <autumna> this is pretty funny.. from a bug perspective
[20:37] <sakrecoer> if i was unhappy with the menu, i would go insane over it :D
[20:37] <autumna> I do want to add custom options..
[20:39] <sakrecoer> i generaly pull out an icon to the taskbar, and edit it there.
[20:40] <sakrecoer> things i use often with special options i want to have quick access to, so taskbar is good for that
[20:40] <sakrecoer> or maybe its caslled "panel"
[20:41] <autumna> ah
[20:41] <autumna> yeah I try to avoid icons on desktop, with whiskers, you can favorite them so that they are in front when you open the panel
[20:42] <sakrecoer> i hide the panel.
[20:43] <autumna> so you don't use the app menu at all?
[20:49] <sakrecoer> i do, but not for the stuff i use everyday
[20:50] <sakrecoer> actualy since whisker was introuced i barley click, i just use it as a smart terminal
[20:51] <sakrecoer> type and press enter :D
[20:51] <sakrecoer> terminal is the best GUI :D
[20:54] <autumna> heh
[20:54] <autumna> I do that a lot too
[20:54] <autumna> I do like to browse to see what is there through.. aaanyway *goes to file the bug*
[21:02] <autumna> (looks like known bug)
[22:29] <OvenWerks> autumna: the menu editor that xubuntu ships and we now use I am not happy with :(
[22:30] <autumna> :(
[22:30] <OvenWerks> I have not had it remove parts of the menu... but it may do that. My complaint is that (at least 14.04) it replaces the system menu in total.
[22:31] <OvenWerks> This means that if you install something like wine which adds a menu stub, that will not show.
[22:32] <autumna> default whiskers does work fine in terms of showing new items for me. it is the editor that seems to be completely breaking it?
[22:32] <autumna> unless you ran into a different bug then I did I mean.
[22:32] <autumna> (I had a very similar problem in 14.04 too)
[22:33] <OvenWerks> The best way (in my opinion) to add menu items is to create a desktop file and add it to ~/.local/share/applications/
[22:34] <OvenWerks> Not very GUI-ish :P
[22:34] <autumna> it works for editing maybe, but not really if you need to rearrange things :D
[22:35] <autumna> (granted I haven't run into a badly placed application in 16.04 so far which, yay!)
[22:35] <OvenWerks> There are two menu editors available. menulibre and alamode
[22:35] <OvenWerks> I don't like what alamode does either
[22:36] <autumna> well for me, one of them didn't work at all, the other one.. well what was said above :D 
[22:36] <OvenWerks> both editors make assumptions about how the system menu is set up which is based on a stock system rather than the xdg standard.
[22:37] <OvenWerks> We use the XDG stanard to the fullest :)
[22:39] <OvenWerks> I found alamode (the last time I used it) changed my menu forever... I could not go back without removing a number of things by hand. menulibre (last time I played) at least took you back to stock correctly.
[22:40] <autumna> that is true
[22:41] <autumna> but yeah, I am not sure creating .desktop files counts as a solution. workaround yes but..
[22:41] <autumna> :)
[22:43] <OvenWerks> actually ... That is what a menu editor is supposed to do.
[22:44] <OvenWerks> The last desktop file with any one name is the one that gets used.
[22:45] <OvenWerks> So the one the user makes should take presidence... if the menu builder is made correctly and the system menu file is built right. (many system menu files are broken - won't be fixed)
[22:46] <autumna> *nods*
[22:48] <OvenWerks> studio's system menu file is correct :)
[22:49] <OvenWerks> I think xubuntu's is now, but I am not sure aboutthe stock xfce one.
[22:49] <OvenWerks> (KDE is right, gnome is not)
[22:49] <OvenWerks> lxde is wrong too.