[00:00] <roma_> please and thanks
[00:00] <roma_> hello Bregma
[00:01] <roma_> have you ever try something like this or have some idea??
[00:05] <nhaines> The only information I have (which is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices) says that the port was abandoned 3 years ago.
[00:13] <nhaines> Hmm, libertine-create-container was suspiciously successful-looking this time.
[00:19] <roma_> Hi nhaines, i'll try it
[00:24] <nhaines> roma_: you'll try porting Ubuntu to the Galaxy S2?
[00:36] <kurros> i don't know of a current port for the s2
[00:37] <kurros> whoops was scrolled up
[00:55] <nhaines> bregma: I think I have a working libertine container now, thanks  :D  Now to basically make my own puritine container...
[01:33] <jabawok> Acou_Bass: re your comments re xorg / n900 / android.    +1
[01:34] <jabawok> I'm also a n900 user pining for Xmir to become workable. I still haven't worked out how to get it going yet.
[01:36] <jabawok> the possibilities will really open up once Xmir is working well with easy launcher creation etc.
[03:02] <Xiami> hi can i ask how to port xiaomi redmi note 4G to ubuntu touch?
[03:04] <duflu> Xiami: There is this:  https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/phone/devices/porting-new-device/
[03:04] <Xiami> thx you but the driver not funtioning
[03:31] <ATDT911> Anyone attempted a port for Google's Pixel C tablet?
[05:39] <redfish> does ubuntu touch use upstart init system on phones?
[09:42] <pavithra> hi.. I am trying to build my first app on ubuntu phone in the ubuntu sdk and I am running Ubuntu 14.04.. The app type is QML App with simple UI (qmake). The framework I chose is Ubuntu-sdk-15.04.5... The kit selected are UbuntuSDK for amd64 and UbuntuSDK for armhf.  After all, this when I try to build it (without adding anymore code), it gives an error  No rule to make target, Manifest.json needed by first
[09:42] <pavithra> Can you please help in this..
[09:54] <davmor2> pavithra: you might want to try #ubuntu-app-devel
[09:55] <pavithra> thank you
[10:27] <bregma> redfish, yes
[10:46] <crs_> Anyone here who ordered the meizu 5 pro ?
[10:54] <Elleo> crs_: yep
[10:55] <crs_> Did you receive a tracking number?
[10:57] <Elleo> crs_: no, jd.com seems a bit useless at that sort of thing, but you can track it anyway if you go to the DHL website and find the "Track by Shipper's Reference" page, then you can use your JD order number to get the tracking info
[10:57] <crs_> Elleo: Or did you receive the device? I am waiting since april 29. And nothing is happening
[10:57] <Elleo> crs_: for the UK site that's this page: http://www.dhl.co.uk/en/express/tracking/shippers_reference.html not sure about other ones
[10:58] <Elleo> crs_: according to my tracking mine was dispatched on the 12th and is currently in a sorting facility in china
[10:58] <crs_> Elleo: Thank you very much, i will try that
[10:59] <Elleo> crs_: no problem :)
[11:12] <crs_> Elleo: I found mine and it has already been in two sort facilities. Currently it is on 'clearance event'
[11:15] <Elleo> crs_: you might need to give dhl your contact details, so you can pay VAT/customs charges (annoyingly JD don't include those in the price and don't make it very clear on their website)
[11:15] <Elleo> crs_: I got a text from them about that shortly after signing up for tracking updates
[11:16] <Elleo> crs_: so not sure if JD are passing on the info properly and it was just a coincidence or if it'd have been stuck in that state had I not given them my details myself
[11:17] <crs_> Elleo: Ok, lets hope that we will receive our devices soon ;)
[11:17] <Elleo> crs_: yeah, DHL are estimating delivery on wednesday for mine, so hopefully not too long left to wait :)
[11:19] <crs_> Elleo: Same here. But i doubt that it will get from china to germany in 2 days :P
[11:21] <Elleo> yeah, possibly a bit optimistic ;)
[14:32] <andrew_> Hi everyone! Does anyone know how to access the camera stream? It seems like ubuntu touch uses v4l2 (there are many  devices /dev/video*) but I couldn't get it to work with ffmpeg. nexus 5
[15:03] <dobey> andrew_: what are you trying to do exactly?
[15:13] <cbaines> I'm trying to flash my phone (BQ E5) and I'm currently stuck waiting for it to find the phone? Is the screen with the 3 options the right state to be in?
[15:14] <cbaines> (can't say what the options are, as the phone screen has now gone blank...)
[15:19] <andrew_> dobey: I just wanted to try streaming from the phone over udp protocol.the microphone input using pulseaudio worked great so I wanted test the camera. so basically I was doing ffmpeg -f v4l2 -i /dev/video* with different devices. I suppose the camera needs to be activated first or it's not intended to be using directly with v4l2
[15:23] <dobey> andrew_: oh ok, i'm not sure what the supported API is for apps to access camera directly.
[15:39] <ba2095> Hi, guys! I just have one simple question: how to disable pat on ubuntu phone(as factory default) to get 'do not use apt' message on terminal, for example, on 'apt update'?
[15:41] <dobey> ba2095: don't use apt. it is unsupported
[15:41] <dobey> ba2095: https://askubuntu.com/questions/620740/recommended-way-to-install-regularcli-deb-packages-on-ubuntu-phone/623311#623311
[15:42] <ba2095> I just tried some time ago(needed node 5.x on a phone), than reflashed my phone, but apt still kind of working
[15:43] <davmor2> ba2095: if the device is read-only then you can't use apt
[15:43] <davmor2> ba2095: the phone is developed to use click packages from the store not apt
[15:44] <davmor2> ba2095: there is no quarentee that you won't break the ability to update if you use apt, also the packages you install will likely get broken if you manage to upgrade. therefore apt is not a recommended way to install packages
[15:46] <ba2095> It runs but fais to rewrite/update package source files, do we have a way to get 'do not use apt' default message back? Didnt mind reflashing/data loss. Also, I used chroot env, but as device cant hold ext formatted microcd(seems so) it's kind of painfull for device mem
[15:48] <davmor2> ba2095: why are you trying to use apt?
[15:49] <ba2095> To install git & node
[15:49] <cbaines> Ok, in answer to my previous question, I needed to select the fastboot option
[15:50] <ba2095> Also, just got my freeza & it fails updating from ota-9.5(stock) to 10.1, so reflasging using ubuntu-device-flash rigth now
[15:51] <cbaines> Now I am getting "exit status 255" when I run ubuntu-device-flash touch --channel=ubuntu-touch/stable/bq-aquaris.en --bootstrap
[15:51] <cbaines> Any ideas on what this means?
[15:54] <davmor2> cbaines: it means it exited what are you trying to do?
[15:55] <cbaines> I'm trying to reinstall ubuntu on a BQ Aquaris E5 (Ubuntu edition)
[15:55] <davmor2> ba2095: see all the comments to you above they will explain how to enable apt which doesn't work on a read-only device
[15:56] <cbaines> davmor2, Its the only output I get when I run the command I posted above
[15:57] <davmor2> cbaines: you might need the adb enabled recovery image john-mcaleely can you help direct to that for vegeta
[15:57] <ba2095> davmor2: I dont need apt anymore, so wondering what is the best way to get rid of all changes made & get as out-of-the-box expirience. Is ubuntu-device-flash with --wipe enough?
[15:57] <john-mcaleely> davmor2, cbaines https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
[15:58] <davmor2> john-mcaleely:oh nice thanks
[15:59] <davmor2> cbaines: grab the recovery image from there and add --recovery-image recovery.img to the end and also add --device vegeta
[16:02] <cbaines> Ok, that seems better, but I'm still getting the same cryptic error message
[16:02] <cbaines> Shall I try restarting the phone? (if so, how?)
[16:03] <cbaines> Ah, running as root works
[16:04] <cbaines> (or rather, is working, its downloading now)
[16:04] <davmor2> cbaines: are you on trusty?
[16:04] <cbaines> Running with sudo does not
[16:04] <cbaines> davmor2, No, I don't have an Ubuntu installation to hand, so I installed the necessary packages on Debian Sid
[16:05] <davmor2> cbaines: that might be the issue then, you won't have the dbus rules for the phone so it won't know how to adb to it
[16:06] <davmor2> cbaines: sudo should get you around that issue though
[16:33] <cbaines> Great success, amazing, thanks john-mcaleely and davmor2 :)
[16:33] <john-mcaleely> \o/
[16:34] <davmor2> \o/
[18:27] <matv1> Hello it is my understanding that ota 11 will include miracast. Is that true? And if so , i'd like to know if there is any specific dongle/adapter that is known to work?
[18:30] <davmor2> matv1: what device do you have?
[18:33] <matv1> davmor2 i am thinking of getting the meizu pro 5
[18:34] <matv1> That is what miracast isbeing developed for currently, right?
[18:35] <davmor2> matv1: the pro 5 will support aethercast and I assume dongle support will be announced on release of ota11 at a guess
[18:40] <matv1> davmor2 cool! Thnks
[19:45] <redfish> does ubuntu touch OS do some kind of special process scheduling a la Android? All I found in the docs was a passing reference: "in Ubuntu Touch apps don't run all the time". Any details? And, is there a way to avoid any foreground/background mode being forced onto my beloved processes? thx.
[19:48] <mcphail> redfish: your beloved processes will all be paused when they are in the background, I'm afraid
[19:48] <dobey> indeed
[19:49] <dobey> redfish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5iY2NgaBeY
[19:49] <mcphail> redfish: apps are supposed to use the frameworks to do things in the background, such as media hub for playing music etc
[19:52] <mterry> tedg, ubuntu-app-launch's Base::launch() (and other places?) should use ubuntu_app_launch_start_application_async instead of ubuntu_app_launch_start_application.  Can you make that (at least) part of your app-object-signals branch?  Otherwise the signals may not be handled properly since code is blocking
[19:53] <tedg> mterry: Good point, do you think that we should provide a callback? Or just let the signal be the callback?
[19:53] <tedg> Well, we could use the signal internally.
[19:53] <mterry> tedg, my code so far has been fine with the signal being the callback
[19:53] <mterry> tedg, although I haven't finished updating to the app-object way
[19:54] <mterry> tedg, may have more of an opinion later, but I think a simple addition of _async is enough for now
[20:24] <sebsebseb>  
[20:26] <dobey>  
[20:50] <hasan> Hi
[20:52] <hasan> What is your recommend? bq M10 vs Meizu Pro 5 vs Wait for powerful tablet
[20:52] <dobey> well the pro 5 is a phone, not a tablet
[20:52] <sebsebseb> hasan: depends
[20:52] <dobey> but it's more powerful than the m10
[20:53] <sebsebseb> dobey: can't do the screen thing orw hatever for pro 5 I think?
[20:53] <sebsebseb> full convergence?
[20:53] <dobey> i don't think the pro 5 has MHL
[20:53] <sebsebseb> hasan: I have the cheaper tablet the HD
[20:53] <dobey> but aethercast should work
[20:53] <sebsebseb> hasan: and that is a nice device, most have the full HD that have tablet though
[20:54] <hasan> I think Pro 5 is more powerful for convergence(with miracast)
[20:54] <sebsebseb> hasan: I have a MX 4,  that was nice,  pro 5 is meant to be nice but big
[20:54] <popey_> pro 5 is certainly more powerful than the m10
[20:54] <sebsebseb> oh popey_ in USAS
[20:54] <sebsebseb> USA
[20:55] <hasan> Currently I have bq E4.5 I hope Miracast works on it fine...
[20:56] <hasan> LibreOffice, Gimp and IDE will be available at store for the phones in the future!?
[20:57] <sebsebseb> hasan: there will be a seperare store for xorg programs it seems
[20:57] <dobey> legacy apps aren't really available in a "store" as it were
[20:57]  * ogra_ highly doubts you want to run libreoffice or firefox on a 1GB device that already runs a desktop
[20:58] <sebsebseb> ogra_: the 4.5 you mean?
[20:58] <dobey> but yeah, the 4.5 is not powerful, trying to run liberoffice on it might be problematic
[20:58] <ogra_> (read: i would be very surprised if the 4.5 or 5 would get any convergence love
[20:58] <hasan> sebsebseb: just before buy Pro 5 or tablet :D
[20:58] <ogra_> )
[20:59] <ogra_> it would be a very painful experience
[20:59] <ogra_> sebsebseb, yeah
[20:59] <hasan> orga: I hope to Mircast support in OTA11
[21:00] <hasan> orga: I order Microsoft Wireless Display adapter...
[21:00] <ogra_> aethercast totally depends on the HW layer and on having it hooked up there
[21:01] <ogra_> i dont think anyone plans to do that for the 4.5 or 5
[21:01] <ogra_> the devices are simply to undepowered for this
[21:01] <hasan> Yeah! Chatter app is really nice, I dont need my MacBook for IRC when I working with my Ubuntu phone
[21:02] <ogra_> if it takes minutes for your mouse to move or the app crashhes every 30sec because it eats all raam even without opening something in it, thats a pretty useless effort
[21:04] <hasan> orga: I remembering my old PC before my MacBook 😄
[21:05] <dobey> 486dx/2?
[21:06] <hasan> Anybody using uDropCabin!? it will be updatd for camera upload that will be added to photos scope!?
[21:07] <dobey> the photos scope doesn't do uploads afaik
[21:07] <dobey> it will just show pictures that are already on dropbox, by querying a new dropbox scope, iiuc
[21:09] <hasan> Account integrate with dropbox is really useful...
[21:17] <sebsebseb> dobey: ogra_ how much RAM or whatever does convergence really need??
[21:17] <sebsebseb> dobey: ogra_ also it's slow  to type with converged firefox or llibre office on my m10 hD, it doesn't quite keep up with my typing speed.  is that since the proccesser of the device?
[21:17] <dobey> that's a vague question
[21:18] <sebsebseb> dobey: well I have read and you just said it that 4.5 isn't powerful enough
[21:18] <sebsebseb> for convergence
[21:18] <dobey> no idea about typing speed, too many variables and i haven't got an m10
[21:19] <dobey> sebsebseb: yes, it's not a powerful processor, and only has 1GB RAM
[21:19] <sebsebseb> dobey: what are the like recommended specs for convergence?
[21:19] <dobey> sebsebseb: what is "convergence" here?
[21:20] <dobey> sebsebseb: displaying unity8 on an external screen is one thing. running massive legacy xorg apps is another thing entirely
[21:20] <sebsebseb> dobey: running xorg apps
[21:20] <sebsebseb> xmir
[21:20] <dobey> libreoffice is obviously a much larger application than many other apps are
[21:20] <sebsebseb> and then the screen stuff is a side thing, aparatplly 4.5 not powerful enough or doens't have hardware
[21:20] <sebsebseb> een the mx4 maybe
[21:20] <sebsebseb> even
[21:21] <popey> xchat seems to work fine on the m10 here
[21:21] <popey_> i agree :)
[21:21]  * ogra_ types this in hexchat 
[21:22] <ogra_> (with Ambiance theme, proper font size etc etc) .... seems to keep up just fine with my typing ...
[21:22] <sebsebseb> popey_: I had a few issues with it
[21:22] <sebsebseb> popey_: but I am also not used to sucky xchat GNOME
[21:22] <dobey> sebsebseb: well, let me put it this way. my mako is idle right now, and 1.2 GB "used" on it
[21:23] <sebsebseb> dobey: yes space is one thing the pshhical space
[21:23] <sebsebseb> dobey: RAM and proccesser is another
[21:23] <dobey> sebsebseb: i didn't mention storage space at all
[21:23] <dobey> libreoffice has its owm toolkit, and is a very "heavy" application
[21:24] <dobey> ignoring that it takes up a lot of disk space
[21:24] <sebsebseb> on a side note I am a bit hmm to funding this, even though it can run Linux to, but with like 32GB  SSD space, uhmm  there's not going to be much room for anything much I guess, with the internal space:  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gpd-win-intel-z8550-win-10-os-game-console
[21:24] <ogra_> http://i.imgur.com/rjbCSul.png
[21:25] <sebsebseb> ogra_: that  link didn't work
[21:25] <dobey> imgur.com rickroll
[21:25] <ogra_> weird
[21:26] <ogra_> just re-opened it here again
[21:27] <sebsebseb> dobey: so 1.2GB taht was RAM?
[21:28] <popey> image no longer available
[21:28] <dobey> sebsebseb: yes, RAM used by nexus 4 with ubuntu that's just been booted, ran a couple apps, and then sat idle.
[21:28] <ogra_> http://i.imgur.com/rjbCSuI.png
[21:28] <dobey> libreoffice takes up almost 200 MB on amd64, just opening writer ui.
[21:29] <ogra_> try that one then
[21:29] <sebsebseb> ogra_: ok so the 4.5 is useless for convergence to little RAM?
[21:29] <sebsebseb> plus a slower proccesser?
[21:29] <sebsebseb> but the software optoins will show on it I Guess in some sort of update anyway :d
[21:30] <ogra_> wll, making it work is a lot of work
[21:30] <sebsebseb> for convergence
[21:30] <bregma> using an ancient X11-based desktop program is not convergence, it's using a shoe horn to fit an elephant into a Maserati
[21:30] <ogra_> nobody will pay for it to have canonical do it
[21:30] <popey> stop saying "for convergence"
[21:30] <popey> it is a heavily overloaded term
[21:30] <dobey> bregma: converging an elephant and a maserati, you mean
[21:30] <sebsebseb> oh the two popeys didn't like me saying for convergence :d
[21:30] <ogra_> if you wan to do it and send the neccessary patches, they would surely not be refused
[21:31] <popey> it just doesn't make sense.
[21:31] <sebsebseb> well there's the running old xorg apps thing,  and the connecting the divice nto a TV  etc thing
[21:31] <ogra_> but canonicalsfocus will be on improvinng the devices where it is clearly working
[21:31] <dobey> there are many things
[21:31] <dobey> also stuffs
[21:31] <sebsebseb> and  having both things working  like a desktop whilst doing that as well
[21:35] <sebsebseb> popey: popey have you got a pro 5, or  used one with UBuntu?
[21:37] <hasan> I checking JD store for order Pro 5 but black color not yet available 😖😖
[21:38] <sebsebseb> hasan: apparnatly there may not be a balck colour it seems
[21:38] <sebsebseb> hasan: or not for a long time if there is going to be
[21:38] <hasan> Oops
[21:38] <sebsebseb> hasan: they were meant to send me Gold for the MX  4 I got a invoice that said Gold, but a phone that was Silver :d
[21:39] <hasan> bq online store is really better than Meizu 😅
[21:39] <sebsebseb> hasan: so I don't mind buying the MX Pro 5 in Gold when I have money for that, which it seems will be quite a few or more months now, since general spending, other  tech I want to buy as well or crowd fund
[21:39] <sebsebseb> hasan: they have two though global and worlside for bq which is a bit confussing
[21:39] <sebsebseb> and the mx 4 was sold from Meizu's own store meizumarkt  but yes got to get pro 5 via there partner company JD
[21:40] <sebsebseb> hasan: they didn't re brand  the Meizu MX 4 ike what was done with the BQ 4.5 I mean where it says UBuntu edition on the back at least :d.   Meizu just re sell there Andrid phones with Ubuntu pre installed instsad
[21:40] <sebsebseb> hasan: it's going to be bigger than the MX 4, but ys the pro 5 should be quite a nice phone
[21:40] <sebsebseb> more powerful than the bq tablet as well
[21:41] <popey> sebsebseb: my pro 5 arrives next week
[21:41] <sebsebseb> popey: were you going to get one of thos anyway, or was it just mainly since you broke your MX 4?
[21:42] <saavento> So the Ubuntu one is the Meizu Pro 5 not the Pro 6?
[21:43] <sebsebseb> saavento: well there was the Meizzu MX 4 but that's not done anymore
[21:43] <sebsebseb> so it's the Pro 5 for Ubuntu yes
[21:43] <sebsebseb> there will be soon a Pro  6 it seems with Android though when it comes to Meizu
[21:43] <sebsebseb> saavento: I guess Ubuntu is getting a older model again like last time with the MX 4
[21:44] <sebsebseb> but BQ do that to have something later with Android and Ubuntu goes on something older
[21:44] <hasan> I dream bq X5 ubuntu edition 😄😄
[21:44] <sebsebseb> but theres only the MX 10 tablets right now so, so both have that Android and Ubuntu
[21:44] <saavento> Oks, I really would buy Pro 6 with Ubuntu
[21:44] <saavento> Pro 5 not so sure
[21:44] <sebsebseb> saavento: sure, but there probaby won't be a Pro 6 with Ubuntu, or if there  will be not for another year or so, when that's old
[21:44] <sebsebseb> you see what I mean now
[21:44] <saavento> Yes
[21:45] <sebsebseb> saavento: what don't you like about the pro 5?
[21:45] <saavento> Camera on the Pro 6 is spectacular!
[21:45] <sebsebseb> oh how so?
[21:46] <saavento> Just check the wbsite
[21:46] <sebsebseb> saavento: well I want a pro 5 but not in a rush to buy
[21:46] <saavento> Same here
[21:47] <sebsebseb> saavento: it's kind of clever really, oh got enough old stock left of....
[21:47] <sebsebseb> ok let's re sell that with Ubuntu!
[21:47] <saavento> He!
[21:47] <saavento> I would not like to give support to such an experiment
[21:48] <saavento> >(
[21:48] <sebsebseb> saavento: what do you mean?
[21:49] <saavento> Selling a flashed Pro 6
[21:49] <sebsebseb> saavento: well  not quite what I meant, I meant the manfacture sold lots of versions of that phone with Android
[21:49] <sebsebseb> have enough stock left
[21:49] <saavento> with something not supported officially
[21:49] <sebsebseb> or  can get more made with manufacture chdapply enough if needed
[21:49] <saavento> He!
[21:49] <sebsebseb> and so ok
[21:49] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu
[21:49] <sebsebseb> we can sell more of htose phones now a lot more or quite a lot more but with Ubuntu
[21:49] <sebsebseb> and yes the older phone
[21:50] <sebsebseb> clever aye?
[21:50] <saavento> He!
[21:50] <sebsebseb> saavento: some people think that with the Pro 5 they just had a lot more GOLD phones, hence that being the only colour offered for Ubuntu
[21:50] <sebsebseb> a lot more un sold GOld colour yeah
[21:51] <sebsebseb> saavento: Ubuntu is a second class citizen really if you get what I mean still with the hardware manfaucture
[21:51] <ogra_> and who doesnt love gold
[21:51] <sebsebseb> both of them BQ and Meizu
[21:51] <dobey> the slaves who dug it out of the ground
[21:51] <dobey> too soon?
[21:51] <saavento> He!
[21:51] <sebsebseb> however cosindienrg the lack of actsaul market share and the chancd theey took   providing Ubuntu on thep hones as the first two companys,  well fair enough really
[21:52] <dobey> ogra_: gold, suffice it to say, is /not/ the new black
[21:52] <sebsebseb> ogra_: dobey a Gold phone could be nice to be well a bit differnet from like everyone else, since like everyone else has silver and black
[21:52] <sebsebseb> ogra_: dobey for phones
[21:53] <sebsebseb> ogra_: dobey that's why I wanted my MX 4 in Gold to be diffenret got SILVER instead, and yep I went around places looked at what phones I had and looked like a lot of other peoples phones from the distance hmm
[21:53] <dobey> well if i wanted to carry something that big around with me, i'd carry my ps vita
[21:53] <ogra_> dobey, paint it orange then
[21:53] <sebsebseb> dobey: people siad the MX 4 was big, and it's bigish but a good size,  apparnatly the PRo 5 is much bigger though so hmm I wonder how big it's going to really be in the hand etc
[21:54] <sebsebseb> dobey: I guess if it's to big use it ike a tablet mostly instead
[21:54] <dobey> ogra_: safety orange, for doing the safety dance, with your safety pants, because you need them to fit it in a pocket
[21:54] <sebsebseb> dobey: not for calls and texts  if to big I mean not the going out phone
[21:54] <ogra_> without hats though
[21:54] <dobey> sebsebseb: i don't use a tablet
[21:55] <sebsebseb> dobey: yeah but it sonds ike may not really need one for Ubuntu, if the Pro 5 really is as big as  some people make it sound out to be :d
[21:55] <dobey> i already have enough things i spend $$$$ for and don't use, i don't need another one :)
[21:55] <mcphail> dobey: you sound like the antipopey ;)
[21:56] <sebsebseb> popey you adjusted to the time zone ok enough :d
[21:56] <dobey> mcphail: i'm sure if popey had my hobbies, he'd probably feel the same way :)
[21:57] <dobey> can't exactly set a car on a random shelf in my closet and forget it about
[21:57] <ogra_> you mean working for canonical int enough hobby ?
[21:57] <ogra_> *isnt
[21:57] <mcphail> dobey: you collect them or race them or both?
[21:58] <dobey> build-ish
[21:58] <dobey> not really anywhere to race them
[21:58] <dobey> well, not how i would want to race them anyway
[21:58] <dobey> at least, not near me
[21:59] <mcphail> dobey: can I PM you something you might like on that topic?
[21:59] <dobey> sure
[22:03] <sigvard> just droppd in to cry about not recieving my pro 5
[22:03] <sigvard> ;(
[22:04] <dobey> mcphail: cool. freenode won't let me message you though, not being "logged in" to services
[22:04] <sebsebseb> sigvard: oh?
[22:04] <sigvard> does anyon know what is taking JD is taking so long?
[22:04] <ogra_> have you checked the order status on jd.com ?
[22:04] <sebsebseb> sigvard: yep popey 's order
[22:04] <sebsebseb> sigvard: he's delayed jd :d
[22:04] <mcphail> dobey: aah. Had to stop the spammers
[22:05] <sigvard> ?
[22:05] <sebsebseb> sigvard: I am joking :d
[22:05] <sigvard> ah
[22:05] <sigvard> hehe thn :)
[22:06] <sigvard> thinking about going around th problem, buing a regular pro5, and flashing it ... but it really shouldn't be necessarry
[22:07] <sebsebseb> sigvard: boot stuff may be locked for that
[22:07] <sebsebseb> so maybe you can't really or that easiloy
[22:07] <sigvard> yea, but you can by them unlocked
[22:07] <sebsebseb> sigvard: with Android you mean?
[22:07] <sigvard> 3$ extra or thereabouts
[22:08] <sigvard> yea
[22:08] <sebsebseb> sigvard: what so you can put whatever OS you want on it you mean?
[22:08] <popey> sigvard: mine arrives this week
[22:08] <dobey> it needs repartitioned, and bootloader has to be unlocked
[22:08] <sebsebseb> popey: maybe it will be in UK before you get back even :d
[22:08] <sigvard> apparently the FlyMeOS sucks, but that wouldn't last anyhow...
[22:08] <ogra_> mine is supposed to arrive on wed.
[22:08] <sebsebseb> popey: but I suppouse your wife or whatever can sort that out if so :d
[22:08] <popey> sebsebseb: it already is, I told dhl to hold on to it
[22:08] <sebsebseb> popey: oh
[22:09] <sebsebseb> sigvard: yeah  I woudt mind trying out flymeos
[22:09] <sebsebseb> sigvard: but according too ne of the Linux voice guys it sucks or the first version anyway
[22:09] <sebsebseb> one of
[22:09] <sebsebseb> I think there might have been ajn issue with spyware and flyme os and one of the phones even, something I read some wehre
[22:10] <dobey> time to go. later all
[22:10] <sigvard> well, i would only by it for the ut, but to each he's own
[22:10] <sigvard> l8r
[22:10] <sigvard> me too
[22:12]  * mcphail hopes all the devs won't forget krillin when they receive there new phones
[22:12] <mcphail> *their
[22:14] <sebsebseb> mcphail: won't forget what?
[22:14] <mcphail> You see. How soon the memory fades
[22:14] <sebsebseb> mcphail: no what did you mean krillin ?
[22:15] <mcphail> sebsebseb: bq 4.5. The original.
[22:15] <sebsebseb> mcphail: the 4.5 is old first phone now
[22:15] <sebsebseb> there's been the MX 4 a bit after that
[22:15] <sebsebseb> BQ's own HD 5 as well
[22:15] <sebsebseb> a tabelt and Pro 5
[22:17] <mcphail> sebsebseb: I worry the app and framework optimisations will drop in priority if everyone is running a more capable device
[22:17] <sebsebseb> mcphail: what do yu mean optimistaions?
[22:17] <sebsebseb> app and framwoark optimisations?
[22:17] <sebsebseb> mcphail: what runs on each device yu mean or doesn't ?
[22:18] <mcphail> sebsebseb: e.g. fixing the Ubuntu components so apps don't take seconds to load
[22:18] <sebsebseb> mcphail: they will stsill do that I think the slowness stuff try and sort out
[22:19] <mcphail> sebsebseb: one thing I've learned about this platform is things tend to get fixed if they are causing the devs an itch. If they have super-powered hardware, the optimisation itch might fade
[22:21]  * mcphail votes that developer mode should automatically enable a CPU underclock ;)
[22:21] <sebsebseb> mcphail: yeah mean Ubuntu in genral or Linux open source?
[22:21] <saavento> macphail: Interesting
[22:21] <sebsebseb> mcphail: I think getting the conergence stuff mre working properly so without blue tooth mouse and keybaords or usb ones,  to type for example,  and  making it easier to install xorg programs
[22:21] <sebsebseb> mcphail: and  having stuff working with tv's and what not nicely whwen connected in desktop mode and such
[22:22] <sebsebseb> is the target now
[22:22] <sebsebseb> and then also to base Ubuntu  touch on  16.04 in a while or so as well
[22:22] <sebsebseb> mcphail: and the bq 4.5 won't be able to do some of hte newer stuff it seems, since the hardware isn't poweful enough
[22:23] <saavento> Maybe then we have to wait to the guys from NetBSD to deploy a phone
[22:23] <saavento> :(
[22:23] <mcphail> sebsebseb: the 4.5 is a great device. Android zips along on it.
[22:23] <sebsebseb> mcphail: the 4.5 wont be able to do convergence things
[22:24] <sebsebseb> mcphail: I have one to it seems like a nice little phone sure
[22:24] <sebsebseb> saavento: or plasma actiev to become more than just a ROM OS?  there's also Salifish OS :d Jolla yeah
[22:25] <mcphail> sebsebseb: I suppose, again, that depends on how you define and prioritise convergence
[22:25] <saavento> There is an article on The Verge about the Ubuntu Pro 5
[22:25] <saavento> they tend to not like Ubuntu
[22:26] <sebsebseb> saavento: I saw one about the tablet being slow etc, from the verge I Think it was
[22:26] <saavento> sebsebseb: the 4.5 has an 32 or 64 bit arm?
[22:27] <sebsebseb> saavento: uhmm 32bit I think not sure
[22:27] <mcphail> saavento: 32bit
[22:27] <saavento> So there is the weak point
[22:27] <mcphail> saavento: why?
[22:27] <saavento> even the tablet has a 64
[22:27] <saavento> Just saying
[22:28] <ogra_> the question is how they could write that article .... given that the first pro 5 sipments only go out right now
[22:28] <saavento> for the developments cycles
[22:28] <mcphail> saavento: and why do you think 64bit would make any difference?
[22:28] <ogra_> and there were no devices for the press this time
[22:28] <saavento> mcphail: Just speculating
[22:28] <sebsebseb> the 4.5 will live on being supported, but maybe not as much as other devices, with later OTA updates I guess, and I mean supported as in  what actsaully works from those OTA updates on the phones,  that's just a guess though
[22:28] <sebsebseb> some stuff requires more powerful hardware yeah
[22:28] <sebsebseb> for any OS really
[22:29] <ogra_> 64bit definitely makes a difference ... uses more ram aand power for the apps
[22:29] <saavento> I think the pictures in The verge are from some conf or something
[22:29] <mcphail> sebsebseb: there's _nothing_ on UT just now which needs a more powerful device
[22:29] <ogra_> yeah, from some prototype demo release
[22:30] <ogra_> OTA11 will be the actual release for the pro5
[22:30] <sebsebseb> yeah I think they got to try one at Mobile world summit or something
[22:30] <sebsebseb> congress
[22:30] <ogra_> which was quite a while ago
[22:30] <ogra_> (at least two OTAs :) )
[22:32] <saavento> I saw the test they did in The Verge about the M10 and the editor was more clumsy than the tablet
[22:32] <ogra_> even if there are issues, you re having an OTA every six weeks that fixes bits
[22:32] <sebsebseb> indeed OTA updats every six weeks is pretty good reallly
[22:32] <sebsebseb> fast moving sofware :d
[22:32] <sebsebseb> some OTAs will offer a lot more than others as well
[22:32] <ogra_> as it should be ... to be seccure
[22:32] <sebsebseb> and to offer new feautres
[22:33] <sebsebseb> I should update my....
[22:33] <saavento> I am happy with the 10.1
[22:34] <saavento> with a little bit more like copy paste convergence :)
[22:34] <saavento> then is just perfect for me
[22:39] <sebsebseb> saavento: yep no pshycall keyboard and mouseess needed for convergence, and being able to copy and paste between programs like that
[22:39] <sebsebseb> yep then :)
[22:40] <ogra_> sebsebseb, what do you mean by that ?
[22:40] <sebsebseb> ogra_: for xmir
[22:40] <saavento> if i just could copy from pdfreadwe to libre office
[22:40] <ogra_> convergence means thaat the native apps adapt to form factor and input device hhandling
[22:40] <saavento> pdfreader
[22:40] <ogra_> x apps have abssolutely nothing to do with convergence
[22:41] <sebsebseb> ogra_: probably what popey meant earlier he h heh
[22:41] <saavento> I know
[22:41] <ogra_> yess
[22:41] <sebsebseb> ogra_: yes the desktop mode is one thing
[22:41] <ogra_> let it go ...
[22:41] <sebsebseb> tablet and desktop mode
[22:41] <sebsebseb> that seeems to work or mostly
[22:41] <ogra_> xapps are not convergence ... and not related
[22:41] <sebsebseb> not sure about TV's and things like that not connected to anything like that, but should have a NExdock next month :d
[22:41] <sebsebseb> can try then
[22:42] <sebsebseb> ogra_: I think a lot of people bought the tablet wanting to run Firefox etc
[22:42] <sebsebseb> Libre Office etc
[22:42] <sebsebseb> xmir stuff yes
[22:42] <ogra_> sure, and you can ... as X apps
[22:42] <ogra_> none of them is designed for touch ...
[22:42] <ogra_> aand that wont change
[22:42] <saavento> So then for miracast to connect to a Tv for example what kind of dongle should i use?
[22:42] <sebsebseb> ogra_: yeah
[22:43] <saavento> Tv no wifi
[22:43] <sebsebseb> ogra_: but in a update should be able to use them without phsy8icall keyboards and mouse :)
[22:43] <saavento> but usb or hdmi
[22:43] <ogra_> (and really, using firefox vs the native browser on the tablet is nosense)
[22:43] <sebsebseb> ogra_: I disagree
[22:43] <sebsebseb> ogra_: altough the native brwoser has improved quite a bit here and there since the 4.5
[22:43] <sebsebseb> ogra_: I remember how horrible it used to be on the 4.5, coudn't even clear browser history
[22:44] <sebsebseb> BQ 4.5
[22:44] <ogra_> FF will always do everything SW rendered... it will eat 10x more ram for no benefit ...
[22:45] <sebsebseb> SW software rendered?
[22:45] <ogra_> it is aa bloated desktop app running inn a container
[22:45] <ogra_> yes
[22:45] <ogra_> there is no access to the videoo codecs or anything
[22:45] <sebsebseb> it can get slow on the normal computer Firefox yes with Ubuntu
[22:45] <sebsebseb> ogra_: you mean like Flash?  Firefox  on the tablet xmir  ?
[22:46] <ogra_> like video playback ... or any other multimeedia content
[22:46] <sebsebseb> ogra_: also hey your the guy who was saying the other day how he got lots of stuff working in xmir :d
[22:46] <ogra_> animations etc
[22:46] <ogra_> a page full of ads will just kill you
[22:46] <sebsebseb> ogra_: ok so Firefox in xmir is stuck to HTML 5 basically :d
[22:47] <sebsebseb> ogra_: your saying cant run Flash in it for example?
[22:47] <ogra_> it i a nice thing to test something with ... like IE under wine on linux was
[22:47] <ogra_> but surely not the thing for day to daay use
[22:48] <sebsebseb> ogra_: depends what day to day use is :d
[22:48] <sebsebseb> ogra_: I seemd to load up the sits I usaully go to ok with it like that :d
[22:48] <sebsebseb> played music with libre.fm even, but that uses HTML 5 SO
[22:48] <sebsebseb> so
[22:48] <ogra_> dunno, i currently have 40 tabs open in the native browser here
[22:49] <sebsebseb> ogra_: I have used the natiev brwoser as well on the phones nad tablet
[22:49] <ogra_> and type in running hexchat plus haaving dekko running
[22:49] <ogra_> i doubt ny of thaat would bee possible with FF
[22:49] <sebsebseb> ogra_: h eh I did think Thunderbird could put that on the tablet, but then I also thought, well should use dekko really, not used dekko yet
[22:50] <sebsebseb> ogra_: not done that hack thing yet actsaully, but it seems the update is coming soon also that makes it so don't erally need that hack anymore?
[22:50] <ogra_> in any case, X apps are a hack ... a nice goodie ... but dont expect to much
[22:50] <sebsebseb> are we expeting a ota update this week in fact?
[22:50] <ogra_> and they are definitely not convergence
[22:50] <ogra_> or anything related to it
[22:51] <sebsebseb> if convergence is just desktop and tablet mode or phone mode then uhmm right
[22:51] <ogra_> (they are in fact the absolute opposoite)
[22:51] <sebsebseb> having the interface change a bit depending on what kind of screen's being used
[22:51] <ogra_> no
[22:51] <sebsebseb> what's convergence then reallly, other than just some buzz word?
[22:51] <ogra_> having the user experience change, adapted to the form factor and input ...
[22:52] <sebsebseb> in put, mouse and keyboard or touch screen?
[22:52] <ogra_> it is more than themes or touch capabilities
[22:52]  * mcphail hates the bit about the changing user experience
[22:52] <ogra_> try dekko :)
[22:53] <bregma> convergence means running the same software everywhere
[22:53] <bregma> everywhere
[22:53] <ogra_> it shows a very initiaal bit of that
[22:53] <sebsebseb> bregma: yeah I know  that's the intention later, to basically be running the same Unity 8 and what not, on phone tablet or desktop pc
[22:53] <bregma> good old Xapps can't run everywhere, they fall down hard without a keyboard and mouse and don't do well on a small screen
[22:53] <ogra_> +1
[22:54] <sebsebseb> bregma: yeah but some support is coming ins't it, so that should be able to use libe office and gedit and what not using the on screen keyboard?
[22:54] <ogra_> sure
[22:54] <bregma> yes, but that's still not convergence, that's just a crutch
[22:54] <ogra_> bt you still wont be able to i.e.. touch-scroll in them
[22:54] <sebsebseb> a crutch?
[22:55] <ogra_> (i.e. requiring you to use a tiny scoll bar)
[22:55] <sebsebseb> ogra_: touch scroll?  you mean like instad of a wheel on a mouse?
[22:55] <ogra_> you want to use them with the touch kbd ... so i was aassuming also no mouse
[22:56] <ogra_> they are not designed for that ....
[22:56] <sebsebseb> ogra_: well the menus work already with the touch screen on the m10
[22:56] <ogra_> and will never be
[22:56] <ogra_> i talked about scrolling
[22:57] <mcphail> ogra_: so, give the UI a 2 or 3 finger scroll gesture. Problem solved...
[22:57] <ogra_> feel free
[22:58] <ogra_> patches accepted etc etc ...
[22:58] <mcphail> ogra_: my app handles taht already ;)
[22:59] <mcphail> (not coded by me, of course)
[22:59] <ogra_> i doubt aanywhere in canonical is a high focus on such stuff ... that would have to come vi community contributions
[22:59] <bregma> try stabbing a tiny LibreOffice menu with a fat finger, you will understand how venerable Xapps are not designed for convergence
[22:59] <ogra_> *via
[23:00] <bregma> I can personally guarantee thos old Xapps have not been designed to handle gestural input at all
[23:00] <ogra_> bregma, well, i guess XMir could learn to translate a long press into a right click and such stuff
[23:00] <mcphail> No reason menus can't be enlarged for touchscreens and fat fingers
[23:01] <ogra_> but i doubt there is much compaany interest beyond such baasic bits
[23:01] <bregma> mcphail, sure, you could rewrite all the apps....  that would be convergence, but then you've rewritten all the apps
[23:01] <bregma> ogra_, we're not adding gesture recognition to the X server (again)
[23:02] <saavento> Android N looks like is going to be competence for Ubuntu Touch on the mobile-desktop paradigm
[23:02] <mcphail> bregma: no you don't. The window manager can display menus as it sees fit for most toolkits
[23:02] <sebsebseb> saavento: how?
[23:02] <bregma> saavento, that's good, its the next wave
[23:02] <saavento> yes
[23:03] <sebsebseb> saavento: did I read that right, next Android is going to be compeition for Ubuntu Touch on the whole convergene idea thing?
[23:03] <saavento> sebsebseb: is a multiwindow enviroment
[23:03] <sebsebseb> saavento: oh?
[23:03] <ogra_> it definitely is, as much aas windows 10
[23:04] <saavento> I think it will benefit more to Ubuntu Touch
[23:04] <saavento> as being the alternative
[23:04] <bregma> I would welcome even 10% of the market in the next generation, that would pay my salary long time
[23:04] <saavento> and not recording every keystroke
[23:04] <saavento> thats a plus
[23:05] <sebsebseb> as a side thing
[23:05] <ogra_> lol
[23:05] <sebsebseb> I guess xmir was needed as well really since not enough good native apps
[23:05] <sebsebseb> as a side thing what I Just put
[23:05] <sebsebseb> if not going to support Android apps  like Salifish OS and Tizen well can at least support a lot of old  Desktop Linux programs yes
[23:06] <sebsebseb> well as much as Wine does basiclly I mean :D or about
[23:06] <sebsebseb> thousands of old Desktop Linux programs
[23:06] <sebsebseb> can Windows do that? run lots of it's old programs on a phone or tablet and properly enough? no I guess not
[23:07] <sebsebseb> yes continum has the asme kind of idea, but surely more can run on Ubuntu I mean? like that
[23:08] <saavento> sebsebseb> you think it will be some kind of WINE version for Ubuntu Touch?
[23:08] <bregma> think of it like Mac OS X when it first switched from Macintosh System 9:  the classic mode was used to run old System 9 applications for a while
[23:08] <sebsebseb> saavento: what will be?
[23:08] <bregma> Wine is unlikely to be a hit on an ARM device because there are not a lot of WIndows programs built for ARM
[23:08] <sebsebseb> bregma: yeah legacy support. even Microsoft have done that with versions ofWindows.  the old DOS support
[23:09] <saavento> bregma: The MacOs transition was different is different
[23:09] <bregma> hm, running old DOS apps in DOSbox on QEMU emulating i386 and ARM...
[23:09] <sebsebseb> can Wine actsaully run in Xmir I wonder :D and yes run Windows programs :d
[23:09] <bregma> I bet old DOS games still run faster than on an IBM AT
[23:10] <saavento> also on MacOs classic there were not as many applications even than in Linux
[23:10] <bregma> saavento, evidently you did not own an old Mac
[23:10] <ogra_> sebsebseb, you caan surely run wine programs under XMir on x86
[23:10] <bregma> I still have CDs full of Mac games
[23:10] <saavento> Actually I have two next to me
[23:10] <sebsebseb> ogra_: on the PC sure, but what about the Ubuntu phones or tablets :d
[23:11] <saavento> G3 G4
[23:11] <bregma> sebsebseb, not a lot of Windows software built for ARM
[23:11] <ogra_> if you get arm versions of the win apps
[23:11] <sebsebseb> bregma: are the programs in Xmir all built for ARM?
[23:11] <bregma> my Mac games only ran on 68k Macs
[23:11] <ogra_> sebsebseb, XMir is a display server
[23:11] <bregma> sebsebseb, Ubuntu Touch is generally on ARM
[23:12] <bregma> phones, tablets, etc
[23:12] <ogra_> providng an Xorg layer to run on Mir
[23:12] <sebsebseb> bregma: yeah it's not the standard  same as Ubuntu destkop programs,  that run  on the tablet ?
[23:12] <ogra_> totally not aarch dependent whaat it can displaay
[23:12] <bregma> you should be able to run WINE under XMir and Unity 8 on the desktop
[23:12] <bregma> haven't tested it myself
[23:12] <sebsebseb> yess on the desktop sure
[23:12] <sebsebseb> ,but not on the phone or tablet for wine?
[23:13] <mcphail> sebsebseb: you're confusing what WINE actually does
[23:13] <ogra_> if you find an ubuntu x86 tablet
[23:13] <ogra_> or phone
[23:13] <bregma> if the phone or tablet is not ARM, it will probably work
[23:13] <sebsebseb> mcphail: pretend to be Windows
[23:13] <sebsebseb> mcphail: a fake C drive etc
[23:13] <sebsebseb> mcphail: tricks programs into thinking they run on Windows ( programs don't actsaully think )
[23:13] <mcphail> sebsebseb: yes, but doesn't pretend to be a different processor
[23:14] <ogra_> and that even works on arm
[23:14] <ogra_> prob is that there are no apps
[23:14] <ogra_> unless you have windows-arm apps
[23:14] <sebsebseb> mcphail: ok wine is tighted to x86 you mean?
[23:14] <ogra_> no
[23:14] <sebsebseb> mcphail: or would need an actsaul arm version to work on Ubuntu phone?
[23:15] <ogra_> widows apps are usually only built for the x86 arch
[23:15] <mcphail> sebsebseb: no, but if you only have an x86 binary, there is no x86 emulation for ARM
[23:15] <ogra_> might be possible to get qemu to run.. :)
[23:15] <mcphail> ogra_: if anyone can do that, you're the man!
[23:15] <ogra_> emulating  100MHz 486DX
[23:16] <ogra_> ... with 64M ram
[23:16] <saavento> HE!
[23:16] <mcphail> Well, dosbox runs. Doesn't that use qemu?
[23:16] <ogra_> (and eating all your arm cores for that)
[23:16] <sebsebseb> mcphail: ok how does Firefox, Libre OFfice etc work then? in xmir?
[23:16] <sebsebseb> on the tablet
[23:16] <mcphail> sebsebseb: they are compiled for ARM
[23:17] <ogra_> they re from the ubuntu atm archive
[23:17] <mcphail> sebsebseb: taht;s the joy of open source
[23:17] <sebsebseb> ok they are actsaul arm versions
[23:17] <ogra_> *arm
[23:17] <sebsebseb> I was trying to ask taht earier
[23:17] <mcphail> sebsebseb: most packages in the Ubuntu archive are available in ARM versions
[23:17] <sebsebseb> hmm so xmir won't just run nearly any progarm for now even with that hack etc, since it still needs to be in the arm archeive ?
[23:18] <ogra_> no
[23:18] <ogra_> XMir is aa display server
[23:18] <mcphail> sebsebseb: almost everything is in the ARM archive
[23:18] <sebsebseb> what even xscreensaver :D ?
[23:18] <ogra_> it has nothing to do with CPU architectures
[23:20] <saavento> The arm archive is the repo for Libertine?
[23:20] <ogra_> it emulates an X11 env for apps ... and it does that on powerpc, arm or any x86 arches
[23:20] <bregma> there's a lot of third-party closed-source Linux software that is not built for ARM and will not run on the phone or tablet
[23:20] <bregma> Steam, I'm looking at you
[23:20] <ogra_> yeah
[23:21] <ogra_> but even steaam ... wouldd only get you an empty client
[23:21] <ogra_> *steam
[23:21] <sebsebseb> ogra_: the ARM archeve emulates an X11 environment for programs in it?
[23:21] <ogra_> sebsebseb, no
[23:21] <bregma> exactly, but maybe they will change that at some point
[23:21] <ogra_> sebsebseb, XMir does
[23:22] <ogra_> independent from arm or x86 or powerpc or s390x arch
[23:22] <bregma> sebsebseb, X11 is a display server, it runs natively on ARM because it's open source and compiled for ARM
[23:22] <sebsebseb> ogra_:  why can't xmir  just go and use programs from the normal Desktop Ubuntu repos?  on the tablet
[23:22] <bregma> Windows is closed source and not compiled for ARM
[23:22] <ogra_> sebsebseb, XMit doesnt "go"
[23:23] <bregma> sebsebseb, it does exactly that: uses the Ubuntu archives on phone and tablet, built for ARM
[23:23] <ogra_> it is an environment installed on your system, thats all
[23:23] <bregma> *that* is a part  of convergence too
[23:23] <ogra_> apps that can run on our system and need X11 can use it to display stuff
[23:23] <sebsebseb> bregma: yeah ok buitl for ARM,    but why  can't just standard x86 programs work  for 32bit or 64bit from the normal Ubuntu repos?
[23:23] <ogra_> its a display server
[23:24] <sebsebseb> bregma: since xmir isn't really a emulater?
[23:24] <ogra_> because the ARM CPU talks in different machine code vs x86 CPUs
[23:24] <mcphail> sebsebseb: I think you're a bit shaky on some of teh concepts here
[23:24] <ogra_> that has nothing to do with X or XMir
[23:25] <bregma> sebsebseb, no, XMir is not an emulator
[23:25] <ogra_> XMir is a display server :)
[23:25] <sebsebseb> yeah
[23:25] <ogra_> using X11 on the one side and Mir on the other
[23:25] <bregma> XMir is an X11 server that renders graphics into a Mir surface, which then gets displayed on your screen
[23:26] <sebsebseb> right ok  yeah that makes more sense
[23:26] <sebsebseb> and the native stufff is mir so yeah
[23:27] <sebsebseb> and the proccesser in the devices is ARM, so the programs that are used in xmir, have to be ARM
[23:27] <bregma> now you've got it
[23:27] <ogra_> like any other app/program on the device
[23:28] <ogra_> again, just keep xmir out of that sentence .... then it is correct :)
[23:28] <mcphail> Although, presumably xmir on ARM could render an x86 x-client over the network? ;p
[23:28] <ogra_> lol
[23:29] <ogra_> shush
[23:29] <mcphail> ha!
[23:29] <sebsebseb> yeah v n c :d
[23:29] <sebsebseb> or something
[23:29] <ogra_> nativee xdmcp
[23:29] <ogra_> no vnc needed
[23:30] <sebsebseb> uh what's xdmcp somethin g for  mir ? touch whatever
[23:30] <mcphail> sebsebseb: this is one of the layers of complexity Mir was supposed to kill ;)
[23:30] <ogra_> a 30 year old insecure protocol to transport X11 over networks
[23:30] <sebsebseb> mcphail: or Wayland :D ? Mir is a fork
[23:30] <ogra_> nah
[23:31] <ogra_> its a spoon
[23:31] <bregma> I had an Excel spreadsheet rendering over VNC on my Nexus 4 as a test a while ago
[23:31] <mcphail> sebsebseb: don't think Mir is a fork of wayland...
[23:31] <sebsebseb> that's what I read all over the place beore
[23:31] <sebsebseb> before
[23:31] <bregma> sebsebseb, Mir is definitely not a fork of Wayland
[23:31] <sebsebseb> that Wayland got forked
[23:31] <ogra_> bregma, XDMCP under XMir ... much more fun ;)
[23:31] <sebsebseb> bregma: well what did Canonial fork and use Wayland for then? I read things before
[23:32] <mcphail> sebsebseb: there was talk about making mir a compositor for wayland, but my head exploded at that point
[23:32] <bregma> ogra_, that's very retro, I'd have to dig out an old slackware server to test properly
[23:32] <ogra_> haha
[23:32] <sebsebseb> mcphail: exploded as in you weren't happy?
[23:32] <bregma> sebsebseb, we did not fork and use Wayland
[23:32] <sebsebseb> bregma: hmm so Wayland hasn't been used at all then? or parts of?
[23:32] <bregma> Mir was developed from scratch
[23:32] <sebsebseb> oh ok
[23:33] <bregma> both Mir and Wayland use some common technologies, like libinput to wrap the Linux kernel's evdev interface
[23:33] <sebsebseb> oh ok
[23:34] <sebsebseb> both Android and Ubuntu for phones and tablets use some of thee same things too :d, but already did that discussion last time :D
[23:35] <bregma> Wayland was started before Mir, and there is some inexplicable animosity among some people who spread disinformation to help validate their beliefs
[23:35] <sebsebseb> bregma: hmm how many people actaully made Xmir? devS?
[23:35] <bregma> but, it turns out you can;t trust everything you read on the internet
[23:35] <ogra_> wayland is a protocol (a language) .... Mir is a compositing display server
[23:35] <ogra_> yoou cant really fork one into the other
[23:35] <ogra_> they are diferent concepts to achieve similar results
[23:36] <bregma> XMir?  there have been 3 or 4 people involved, but it;s really just 1 developer now
[23:36] <bregma> plus the occasional patch
[23:36] <sebsebseb> bregma: ok that's Xmir ok, but there's also just well Mir isn't there?
[23:36] <bregma> yes, there's about a dozen developers working on Mir, on of whom is the XMir maintainer too
[23:36] <sebsebseb> ogra_: I thought Wayland was meant to be like a full modern replacement of the whole of xorg?
[23:37] <bregma> and then there's a group who work on connecting Mir and Unity 8 together
[23:37] <sebsebseb> ogra_: and same  for Mir a replacement for Xorg I thought
[23:37] <bregma> sebsebseb, yes, sort of.....
[23:37] <bregma> Wayland is a protocol, a replacement for the X protocol
[23:38] <bregma> there are a number of compositors implementing the Wayland protocol, eg. Weston
[23:38] <ogra_> but there is also xwayland ...
[23:38] <sebsebseb> yeah got to have the old xorg apps working with wayland too
[23:38] <ogra_> which isnt much different from whaat xmir does
[23:38] <bregma> a lot of ports to Wayland rely on XWayland, which I think is going to be a mistake
[23:39] <sebsebseb> I think Mir is tighted to Ubuntu or pretty much, what other distrs going to use it serisouly?
[23:39] <sebsebseb> ones based on it may be a bit reluctent to go that way untill pretty much forced to
[23:40] <bregma> it's like switching to the metric system:  at least one country didn't make it mandatory and is stuck converting furlongs per fornight squared into horsepowers on a daily basis
[23:41] <bregma> it turns out that switching to Mir or Wayland is usually the same amount of work, it's swicthing *away* from X11 that's hard and which XWayland will just prolong
[23:41] <ogra_> sebsebseb, Qt and GTK ender directly into Mir and wayland ... only exotic toolkist will have issues
[23:41] <sebsebseb> bregma: a bit tired here.... but oh  your stephn web, was just scrolling over the list
[23:43] <bregma> it turns out a lot of programs cheat and make direct X11 calls too, and it's always just worked
[23:43] <sebsebseb> bregma: I got to meet you briefly earlier this year actsaully :D, saw a talk you did
[23:43] <bregma> sebsebseb, FOSDEM?
[23:43] <sebsebseb> bregma: yep  bingo
[23:44] <bregma> always like FOSDEM, we're hoping to have a bigger presence next year
[23:44] <sebsebseb> bregma: plus I saw one of those online summit talks  what was that last week?
[23:44] <sebsebseb> bregma: h eh you might remmeber me actsaully if I say a bit more :D
[23:44] <bregma> I remember you asking questions online
[23:44] <sebsebseb> bregma: yes for online summit, but I meant FOSDEM
[23:45] <bregma> thre names is not uncommon, but the same name repeated 3 times is a little more unusual
[23:45] <sebsebseb> bregma: I asked questions at FOSDEM to was at the front :D talked to you a bit afre the talk even, remember :D ?
[23:46] <bregma> the thing I remember most about FOSDEM was not having a proper HDMI-to-VGA connector for my demo
[23:46] <bregma> >:(
[23:46] <sebsebseb> bregma: ah yeah there was that to, coudn't show on a projectecter
[23:46] <sebsebseb> bregma: so that room never got vided it seems, I looked for videos a few times before, coudn't seem to find that's ashame
[23:46] <bregma> I have every cable imaginable except that one
[23:47] <bregma> hm, some people seem to have seen it (not me)
[23:47] <sebsebseb> videos?
[23:47] <bregma> but it was effectively the same presentation I did for UOS last week, except I had better graphics this time
[23:48] <sebsebseb> bregma: only talks that intereted me really about FOSDEM,  was the Ubuntu ones this year,  well a lot of stuff is a bit too technical for me really, but that makes it easier, ok not going to that or that or that, but I'll go to that or that :D
[23:48] <sebsebseb> oh yean and the neon talk was good
[23:48] <sebsebseb> got a project stand to help at, got other stands to go to even, so  yeah that's fine
[23:48] <ogra_> had you HDMI to Hangouts adapter ?
[23:48] <sebsebseb> bregma: yep it did seem similar the UOS one
[23:49] <ogra_> *your
[23:49] <sebsebseb> bregma: and I got to meet mark briefuoy that was good :)
[23:49] <sebsebseb> briefly
[23:50] <bregma> it was kind of a surprise when he showed up
[23:50] <sebsebseb> bregma: I moved away from UBuntu,  but phone has got me back, and actsaully been runing on this lap top for a bit longer than intended as well well much longer, but I just want to use a computer mostly now, it isn't as fun instaling distros and so on
[23:50] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu for phones and tablets is prety interesting yes :)
[23:51] <bregma> agreed
[23:51] <sebsebseb> bregma: yeah I was sitting there thinking like, oh there's this guy at the back he sounds quite knowledable answering questions, then after a bit longer I Reolied, oh it's actsaully Mark
[23:51] <sebsebseb> reoised above
[23:51] <sebsebseb> reolised
[23:52] <sebsebseb> bregma: of course you would agree though, you work on that stuff :D get paid too :D
[23:52] <bregma> when I got in to Linux in the mid-1990s I enjoyed rolling my own distro, but now I can stand building my own kernel and dread seeing the GRUB screen on boot
[23:52] <sebsebseb> can't stand you meant?
[23:53] <bregma> yes
[23:53] <bregma> I also dislike typing :)
[23:53] <sebsebseb> bregma: indeed it's just not as fun anymore,  distor hopping a bit, installing verisons,  doing  the upgrades via the repos etc for distros, altough I tend to be a geek still and watch the terminal instaling things when that hmm
[23:53] <sebsebseb> really just install the same stuff again and again and again, but with updates
[23:53] <sebsebseb> the same boring packages
[23:53] <bregma> I tell you though, getting paid to work on cool stuff is the best job
[23:54] <sebsebseb> bregma: not sure how much you get paid of course, but indeed having a good tech job would be good :)
[23:55] <sebsebseb> bregma: Mark used to talk about the I  will spell ths wrong I expeect, but the uhmm chasm?
[23:55] <sebsebseb> Jono too
[23:55] <sebsebseb> going over the thingey
[23:56] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu Desktop it seems after all these years hasn't done that, but maybe for phones and tablets and something like that will hapen
[23:56] <bregma> I think with convergence and the next generation we have a good chance of doing that
[23:57] <sebsebseb> as in like leaping into the main streame or sort of main streame
[23:57] <sebsebseb> bregma: it's the only player left like that really,  Firefox OS no longer targetign phones etc.  Jolla has another phone in India, but I don't think there's the same interest there in that kind of thing as with Ubuntu
[23:57] <sebsebseb> so it basically just laves Ubuntu for that kind of thing
[23:58] <sebsebseb> bregma: actsaully I got a link you might find interesting and ogra if I can find it again shouold be able to hold on
[23:59] <mcphail> I thought it was quite clear sabdfl's heart isn't in the desktop sphere any more. I thought his answers at the UOS Q&A were unsettling