=== meetingology` is now known as meetingology [17:37] evening all [18:04] evening flocculant [18:05] hi ochosi :) [20:04] !team | anybody here for the meeting? :) we'll start in about 25! [20:04] anybody here for the meeting? :) we'll start in about 25!: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193 [20:05] * flocculant was waiting about for utc to catch up :) [20:05] o/ [20:06] hi pleia2 :) [20:06] hey there flocculant [20:08] coolcool [20:09] * flocculant waits patiently [20:27] ochosi, yep [20:31] ochosi run off :p [20:31] yep [20:31] :) [20:31] too late [20:31] good plan [20:31] #startmeeting Xubuntu Community Meeting [20:31] Meeting started Fri May 20 20:31:59 2016 UTC. The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [20:31] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [20:32] o/ [20:32] !team | alright, let the games begin [20:32] alright, let the games begin: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193 [20:32] \O [20:32] mmm games [20:32] wow, the bubblehead from theme park [20:32] o/ [20:32] err [20:32] theme hospital [20:32] okeydokey [20:32] let's walk through... [20:33] #topic Open Action Items [20:33] are there any? [20:33] nope [20:33] well, the one there is was cancelled [20:33] not enough time [20:33] k [20:33] what was it? [20:33] what? [20:33] dkessel's mail about the pi testing [20:34] not enough time - or not enough people to actually do something about it? [20:34] he said he didn't have enough time to carry out the testing and stuff itself, so no reason to send a mail [20:34] right [20:34] there was another mail on the ML about the same thing [20:34] let's move on then... [20:34] read that [20:34] where i replied that if we get enough interested parties... [20:34] yup [20:34] #topic Updates and Announcements [20:34] any updates? [20:35] quick one [20:35] #info ochosi has started porting xfce4-clipman-plugin and gaston has ported some other small plugins to gtk3 [20:35] #info all images currently fail with ubi-console error - though can be installed if ignored [20:35] (we can discuss whether we want to integrate the plugins in the discussion section) [20:35] * flocculant has question about ochosi's at some point :) [20:36] #info knome has been working on a new tracker where all work items are tracked internally (eg. not in LP) - mails will follow when it's ready enough for others to test and evaluate whether we want to use that [20:36] #info tracker now shows (more or less) a daily +/- on whether our image boots at least [20:36] #info ochosi looked at what would be necessary for gtk3.20 support for greybird, and it's basically a rewrite (even though ubuntu doesn't seem to be likely to upgrade gtk3 this cycle as they're still looking for a new larsu, i'd rather get a head-start on this as soon as i can) [20:37] #info unlikely that QA will run IRC sessions unless they get more positivity about them [20:37] - k, that was it from my side [20:38] flocculant: are there still plans for a community-driven jenkins? [20:38] ochosi: well [20:38] i vaguely remember some automated testing stuff from past months [20:38] do we have the time in a meeting? [20:38] yes [20:38] :P [20:38] flocculant: depends... :) [20:38] afaik - it's still in plan, but I am the eternal ... [20:39] and nothing happened for us pre LTS so I see no reason why it'd not suddenly happen post LTS [20:39] and also [20:39] just wondering whether at least the downloading and installing the iso part could be automated so that we could get some feedback on whether that part works and you don't have to do that manually [20:40] given that just because autotest passed/failed it seemed to make no difference at all to whether *we* could boot or use that image [20:40] seems rather pointless to carry on hoping imo [20:40] so [20:40] I got images to build much earlier [20:40] I zsync locally [20:40] and balloons is not working with QA stuff any more [20:40] they are looking for a replacement [20:40] I update our tracker status tab [20:41] getting help and push from that person would be vital imo [20:41] when I see build fail - I check that [20:41] then rinse repeat [20:41] i'll keep this in the back of my mind, but maybe i can think of a way to automatically dl, install and run the ISO and report the results with jenkins [20:41] knome: if you ask me then any replacement is likely to be more *ubuntu* [20:42] main issue is likely automating the installer [20:42] flocculant, likely so [20:42] ok, anyway, so not too much hope on that front [20:42] good to have cleared it up still [20:42] any other updates? [20:42] or can we move to the discussion part [20:42] ochosi: davmor2 gave me a script that grabbed iso and synced it - maybe look into that together ish? [20:43] flocculant: sure, pastebin it [20:43] so no more updates though? [20:43] https://git.launchpad.net/~davmor2/+git/iso-updater/tree/update.py [20:43] ochosi: ^^ [20:43] i'm fine [20:43] obviosuly that's ubuntu centric [20:43] oh ok [20:43] well this is just the zsyncing part [20:44] i was more thinking about automating the complete install process of ISO [20:44] yeah [20:44] ochosi: I have some kvm commands that work locally [20:44] the download/sync part is the easy one [20:44] knome: well [20:44] anyhoo, let's not drag this on too much longer, the discussion needs time [20:44] #topic Discussion [20:44] ochosi: perhaps an ACTION [20:45] what action? [20:45] #undo [20:45] Removing item from minutes: TOPIC [20:45] go ahead then [20:45] on the auto stuff [20:45] right [20:45] #action ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins [20:45] ACTION: ochosi will see whether he can come up with ways to automate the ISO installing with jenkins [20:45] #topic Discussion [20:46] #subtopic Xubuntu Council [20:46] so i guess i posted most of my thoughts on the ML [20:47] yup [20:47] and me [20:47] and flocculant [20:47] so anyone else around? :P [20:47] ML or team email? [20:47] pleia2: both afaik [20:47] ML [20:47] well, some initial discussion was on team mail [20:48] ah yes, knome's thread [20:48] but the proposal was on the ML [20:48] yup [20:48] i think the ML thread has all the information we need to get the discussion here done now [20:48] #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-May/011167.html [20:48] i mean, it has the actual proposition based on the discussion with the team [20:48] yeah, so basically i see all my points resolved [20:49] i'm good with the proposal as is [20:49] me too [20:49] it still needs to be fixed into a XSD section [20:49] so some supporting words [20:49] not too many [20:49] there are maybe some small details we still need to flesh out (like whether the council can autonomously decide to split the chair), but other than that it's good [20:49] it still needs to be ratified by team [20:49] indeed [20:50] so i'd say voting is next [20:50] I also favour a three members council proposal [20:50] should we vote on the baseline now (eg. anything that's written on the proposal) [20:50] I'd say yes knome [20:50] and then when the XSD stuff is written, vote again to approve the details [20:50] knome: I would think so [20:50] everyone had time to read now [20:50] sounds good to me [20:50] are we enough for a quorum though? [20:50] as long as it goes to M/L for vote [20:50] after that's done, then send the section to community council [20:51] or anyway, yeah, the ML [20:51] ochosi: don't think so [20:51] yeah, i'd suggest a mailing list (only) vote [20:51] ok great [20:51] regardless - I think this should go to M/L [20:51] gets archived too [20:51] knome: wanna set up the vote, since it was "your" thread? :) [20:51] #action knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML [20:51] ACTION: knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML [20:51] 2 ticks [20:51] ^ there's your answer [20:52] can we word it so that people can 'ahem' before voting [20:52] like? [20:52] give them more time to react? [20:52] because currently we have 2 or 3 voices in that thread [20:52] and this isn't something like 'let's get rid of gmb' [20:52] well the thread is 1 week old [20:52] :) [20:52] do we want more? [20:53] well [20:53] we're giving the council 2 to postpone :p [20:53] i'd say if the voting results in a discussion we can stop/inhibit the voting [20:53] but maybe starting a vote is a good trigger for getting more feedback [20:53] otherwise the thread might just sit there for another week [20:53] I would say - we're voting - 2 weeks, react to previous thread to stop vote - or something [20:53] well, [20:54] but [20:54] voting should be 1 week [20:54] if we want to give people more time to react, let's postpone the start of voting [20:54] we have to have some sort of deadline - and ochosi is not XPL in 6 ish weeks [20:54] i'd say "if you have serious doubts regarding the proposal either vote against it or ask for postponing the vote and reopening the discussion" [20:54] knome: ok - so do a thread, 1 week, then vote thread [20:55] i can send a reminder mail to reply to the thread before X if there is anything anybody wants to change, and also note that voting will start on X [20:55] ochosi, can you #undo [20:55] knome: ack that [20:55] #undo [20:55] Removing item from minutes: ACTION [20:55] #action knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week [20:55] ACTION: knome to send a reminder mail to reply to the council proposal within a week [20:55] I just want this to be done as *right* as the group of us can manage [20:55] #action knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now) [20:55] ACTION: knome to initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now) [20:56] ok, sounds good to me [20:56] so another thing that kind of overlaps with this [20:56] knome: thanks [20:56] everybody fine with this so we can move on to the next subtopic? [20:56] I am [20:56] how do we deal with people who have appeared to be more or less inactive in the team for an extended period - namely, jackson and micah [20:57] knome: I would say that the 6 month ish thing should affect that [20:57] i think it's fair for the future of the project and others involved that inactive members do not affect the council election at least [20:57] unless they (plan to) become active again [20:57] the strategy document states that if anyone is away for more than a cycle he/she gets removed from team [20:58] but first step for anything here should be reaching out to them to talk about their involvement [20:58] slickymaster: yeah, in practice we didnt execute it that strict (as i implied on the ML), i usually got in contact with team members and discussed before removing anyone [20:58] ochosi++ [20:58] "nyone with no contributions for more than a complete cycle (6 months) should deactivate themself from the team as well as all subteams and reapply if/when they are willing to rejoin. The team administrators should purge people with no contributions in more than 6 months from the teams occasionally." [20:58] which is fair ochosi [20:58] pleia2: how much more reaching out - the discussion has been on either team mail or -devel [20:58] yeah, i kind of agree with flocculant [20:59] flocculant: a direct friendly email [20:59] i mean i can send out one last email [20:59] it doesn't hurt too much [20:59] ochosi, since you are the incumbent XPL, i'd appreciate if you did that [20:59] but knome's point is different i guess, cause it would imply that even if they plan to contribute again they would not be able to vote [20:59] ok [21:00] so [21:00] ochosi, well there are two things i'm after: [21:00] knome: yeah sure, if we reach the conclusion that this is what we wanna do, i'm gonna send the mail [21:00] how about ochosi do final mail, THEN we start the ACTION's ? [21:00] 3 weeks [21:00] s/mail/mails/ [21:00] ochosi, if they plan to be active again, then they can be nominated or nominate themself [21:00] ochosi, whether they get elected is a different thing [21:00] ochosi, and the other thing is that if you suddenly start being active before the vote, sure you can vote [21:00] flocculant: no, i wouldn't postpone the vote tbh [21:01] flocculant, my first mail and ochosi's mails can happen paralllel [21:01] ok [21:01] just being soft :p [21:01] * flocculant is happy with that [21:01] ochosi, so as long as you send the mails today or tomorrow, they have a week to react to your mail and at the same time, my mail [21:01] proposal: i send out an email to micah and jackson asking them whether they plan to continue being part of the team and contributing since we're about to have this important vote and if not i would kindly ask them to lay down their membership and abstain from voting [21:02] ochosi, and we can either keep them or dump them just before the vote [21:02] yeah [21:02] well no need to mention abstain from voting - that's implied with "leave the team" [21:02] and i don't want to leave the impression they can stay in the team if they simply abstain from the voting :P [21:02] pleia2, Unit193: thoughts? [21:02] slickymaster: ^^ [21:03] ochosi: that's fine [21:04] the best plan in my pov is ochosi mail them tomorrow and give them one week to decide until knome's mail [21:04] ochosi, i'll make sure i don't send the vote email before at least 2 weeks (literally by the minute) has passed since the first mail [21:04] slickymaster, i'm going to send two mails [21:04] slickymaster, the first one is a reminder to take part in the discussion; the other is "voting starts now" [21:04] slickymaster: not sure I'd agree *assuming* knome and ochosi mail in parallel [21:04] I was referring to your first mail, knome [21:04] AND [21:05] nothing here is actually new [21:05] no it isn't [21:05] slickymaster, why would they need one week to think whether they want to comment on something? [21:05] slickymaster, as far as i'm concerned, they can comment and give feedback on the thread *ALREADY* [21:06] I don't see it as a decision period knome [21:06] more like a gracefull one [21:06] yeah, but they aren't declined any action [21:06] until one week [21:06] so they will have one week of decision period [21:06] same as the rest of us [21:07] note that the thread has been going on for one week [21:07] I know [21:07] the original team one almost 4 weeks [21:07] if they haven't seen it at all, then i don't think it's likely they will suddenly want to contribute [21:07] * slickymaster hasn't provided any input in that thread also [21:07] if they have seen it, but ignored it, they have got their thinking time [21:07] but will do this weekend [21:07] slickymaster, ultimately, we can't babysit everybody, so that's your loss ;) [21:08] slickymaster: but if you had major issues - would you still have not replied? [21:08] assuming you read them [21:08] I'd have flocculant [21:08] right [21:08] was going to do it this weekend anyway [21:08] :) [21:08] i think enough of us agree that we (me and ochosi) can send the first mails in parallel [21:08] s/anyway/either way [21:08] knome: ack [21:09] if either of them needs more thinking time, they can respond to ochosi saying they'd want to postpone the voting [21:09] which i think is very unlikely [21:09] yup, i think that's ok [21:09] we're flexible - we'll bend but not break [21:09] wkf [21:09] * wfm [21:09] ochosi, so just make sure your mail gets out before Sat 22:58 UTC [21:10] ochosi, you have about 26 hours [21:10] #action ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote [21:10] ACTION: ochosi to send mail to micah and jackson about their membership and the upcoming council vote [21:10] thanks ochosi [21:10] let's move on? [21:10] pleia2: np :) [21:10] yeah, move on [21:10] #subtopic User Team Lead [21:10] flocculantyyyy [21:11] ok [21:12] so basically this is something I wanted to bring up - and is likely to take some time to sort out if we want to [21:12] but to start with, given we say we're a Community flavour [21:13] perhaps with the advent of Council we should spend some time thinking about a Team position for a User 'representative' [21:13] I've no real concrete proof this would help [21:13] not [21:13] s/not/nor [21:13] one question i have (which i haven't brought up yet) is that how much would the tasks the lead would take overlap with the tasks of the marketing lead? [21:13] any concrete idea about how to do this [21:14] knome: no [21:14] so my initial thinking is [21:14] I think a good first step would be noting out what we already do to interact with the community [21:14] once we have some 'rules' [21:14] we have a user mailing list, #xubuntu, and I interact with people a lot on social media (though not as much as I'd like, because I am spread thin) [21:14] i guess one of the main points (which i have also pointed out in the ML) is that the community representative would bring up the voice of the community [21:14] would be to let the whole of the LP user team vote on them [21:14] knome: yes [21:15] but what are the actionable items from that [21:15] or is it just floating everywhere and repeating what people say about xubuntu [21:15] I'm happy to spend some time working on this - assuming that we will actually do something positive at the end [21:15] knome: well [21:15] I don't know [21:16] one task that would overlap with the marketing lead at least is filling the "in press" page [21:16] it's rather nebulous [21:16] yeah, I feel like I do a lot of this already [21:16] pleia2: ok [21:16] because the things we link from there kind of is the content that lead would be looking after [21:16] but I'm happy to clarify exactly what I do in an etherpad [21:16] and where I need help :) [21:16] so if I was the community 'rep' I would be jumping up and down on the intel/suspend issue [21:17] pleia2, would you be fine to clarify that in a docbook format at some point (potentially) [21:17] there's no 'communal voice' [21:17] just disaprate groups saying things [21:17] right [21:17] another question is: [21:17] flocculant: to what end would you jump up and down on that? [21:17] I do try to speak up when issues come up and I've seen people talking about it on social media [21:17] would there be something that we are missing currently that the user lead would find out byt their actions? [21:18] but again, could use help keeping an eye on this [21:18] As far as "Community flavor", that means *we're* the community, the Xubuntu team. :P [21:18] if something affects many people, it'll show up on places like #xubuntu and the social media [21:18] but so far, nothing we didn't already know has been "trending" anywhere [21:18] Unit193: yes - but Xubuntu Users is part of that surely [21:18] so it leads me to ask whether there is anything else to "find" [21:19] who knows - do we ask? [21:19] ever? [21:19] we don't [21:19] for instance [21:19] and don't get me wrong - i'm not saying i'm against the idea [21:19] take the wallpaper for xenial [21:19] (just a sidenote, i really have to take off at 23:30 local time, which is in about 10mins, if you want to continue the meeting i can hand over the chair to someone else ofc) [21:20] ochosi: let's shuffle this on to m/l and move on [21:20] ochosi, you can #chair me if you want [21:20] because the 5 of us will go in circles [21:20] #chair ochosi knome [21:20] Current chairs: knome ochosi [21:20] or we can continue after the other discussion points [21:20] flocculant: I am interested in where you feel there are concerns here [21:20] because irc != ML [21:20] indeed [21:20] shuffle my last 2 forward while ochosi is here [21:20] k [21:21] so thunar and cursor bug? [21:21] the first will be quick :) [21:21] and skip the wiki part? [21:21] yea [21:21] alrihgt [21:21] yeah, can skip wiki [21:21] #subtopic Thunar [21:21] so [21:22] currently my problem is a carry on - but we're 2 months or so from .1 for 14.04 upgrades [21:22] we've got some patches - we still have bugs [21:22] will the pacthed thunar SRU to 16.04.1? [21:22] does thunar have the same crashes in 14.04 that it has in 16.04? [21:22] ochosi: don't believe so - they are more recent than that [21:23] yeah, what i thought [21:23] just wanted to make sure to not misunderstand your reference [21:23] the bigger question here though is if Thunar is not actively maintained we really need to seriously think about it's inclusion [21:23] so the question would actually go to bluesabre (and Unit193?) - afaik they were looking at packaging another patch for thunar [21:23] do we have a patched thunar that fixes the issues? [21:24] knome: not completely [21:24] i think it makes it less bad [21:24] :) [21:24] ochosi: I know you don't like the idea - neither do I - but I don't much like what we have either :) [21:24] can we start with that for .1? [21:24] knome: I can still crash thunar more at less at will [21:24] knome: yeah, i think that's the plan [21:24] flocculant, that's not my problem, my problem is that it'll crash without my will [21:24] ;) [21:25] what kind of resources could we gather for finding a patch that fixes the crashes completely? [21:25] * flocculant has the position that if maintenance is 'slow' then we should look to replacing it [21:25] do we know if it's thunar or glib or their combination? [21:25] it's changes in glib afaik [21:25] * flocculant also is completely aware that he can't help :( [21:25] i talked to hjudt about it when i met him some weeks ago [21:26] ochosi: ack - that's my understanding [21:26] ochosi, can you lock him in a basement? [21:26] generally speaking i'm against dropping thunar for two reasons: 1) we're replacing a core xfce/desktop component, which makes us less xfce and 2) we give less incentive to (actual and potential) thunar devs to fix the issue [21:26] I don't know that we need to take up more time tonight - I just wanted 'team' to be up to date [21:26] knome: i dont think so [21:26] yep, i'm leaning to ochosi's side [21:27] and also, the replacement should be really good.. [21:27] ochosi: I understand that - but if people start *shrugging* and moving on - what have we accomplished? [21:27] flocculant: ok if it was just an update does that mean we move to the cursor bug for the last 2mins? :) [21:27] ochosi: yep :D [21:28] well we have to motivate someone to dig into thunar [21:28] yea [21:28] that's basically it [21:28] anyway, let's move on [21:28] #subtopic Cursor bug [21:28] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/1568604 [21:28] Launchpad bug 1568604 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor lost when unlocking with Intel graphics" [High,Confirmed] [21:28] i think i've hit that [21:28] yeah, that one is annoying and i've been seeing it too [21:28] and for me, moving the cursor in light-locker before logging in is a workaround [21:28] not much fun, thanks intel! [21:28] has the debbug as fix released, freedesktop as confirmed [21:28]