=== JanC is now known as Guest21659 === JanC_ is now known as JanC === inaddy is now known as tinoco [04:59] good morning to all [06:22] morning, lotuspsychje - up early? [06:22] hey ducasse [06:23] 8h22 here :p [06:23] here too :) [06:23] cuppa tea & irc :p [06:24] just saw your 'good morning' message at 6:59 - i was in no shape to log on then :) [06:24] haha [06:26] ducasse: the external .deb install in gnome-software should be solved on updating system [06:26] !info gnome-software [06:26] gnome-software (source: gnome-software): Software Center for GNOME. In component main, is optional. Version 3.20.1+git20160426.1.a976144-ubuntu-xenial-0ubuntu1 (xenial), package size 236 kB, installed size 1058 kB [06:26] patched [06:27] ah, good. i personally don't use it, but i'm glad it's fixed. [06:33] me neither, apt install way === benonsoftware is now known as Guest30663 [06:37] i read on debian-user recently that the devs are working on a rollback/undo option for apt. that would be nice. [06:37] cool [06:37] apt is fantastic [06:38] and snap packages growing also [06:39] 'snap find | wc -l' = 50 on my system, not too bad. [06:40] telegram is pretty neat [06:40] i missed that in official repos [06:42] i think the interface could be nicer, though. would be nice to have at least a 'snap show' to get more info on a snap. [06:42] yeah [06:42] df -h also shows the snap individual now [06:43] ./dev/loop0 22M 22M 0 100% /snap/telegram-sergiusens/2 [06:45] i know, that's nice :) === \b is now known as benonsoftware [07:16] is there a channel for the wiki team? [07:19] hmm not sure [07:19] !wiki [07:19] http://wiki.ubuntu.com - Ubuntu development documentation wiki. If you are looking for system help, please refer to https://help.ubuntu.com/community - the Ubuntu community documentation. [07:19] !contribute [07:19] To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://community.ubuntu.com and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu [07:20] ducasse: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu#Writing_Documentation [07:20] ducasse: #ubuntu-doc [07:22] ducasse: perhaps joining their mailing list is also a good idea to communicate [07:22] thanks, i was looking but couldn't find it for some reason. i'll ask them if there's any interest in a yubikey page. [07:28] bbl breakfast [07:28] enjoy :) [11:16] Hi everyone [11:21] hi :) [11:21] Hey folks [11:24] ducasse :-) [11:24] hi BluesKaj :) everything ok? [11:24] yes , thanks ducasse , how are things with you? [11:25] good, although it's raining heavily here in the cold north - my cat refuses to go outside :) [11:26] smart cat ;-) [11:28] We live in a part of Ontario Canada that's considered "North" as well, altho the temp is going up to 30C today, but expecting rain this evening [11:30] and still almost freezing at night here [11:30] i'm in norway, so it's a lot colder here. around 10°C in the day, 0°C at night. [11:32] right, see by your IP how far north you are [11:34] your provider uses Ipv6, very up to date [11:34] well, i'm south of oslo, so i guess i shouldn't complain. at least we don't get midnight sun - it actually goes down for an hour or so :) [11:35] every provider here has been on ipv6 for years. [11:39] your iP shows you much north of Oslo...guess it the central switch, or ipv6 can only be resolved by which country the provider is located ...good to know [11:40] these IP trackers aren't always accurate anyway [11:41] no, they're not really accurate. my provider has a huuuuuge network, and i think they're based north of oslo. that might be why. [11:42] mine shows me in Toronto and I'm 400Km north of that [11:43] how's ipv6 coverage over there? better than in the us? [11:46] nothing much yet, mostly still ipv4 [11:49] i think ipv6 has caught on more here in europe. my provider gives every subscriber a /60. [11:51] the big telecoms hare are slow to change unless they need to change, read : if they start losing business to the competition [11:54] sad. the telcos here are pretty heavily regulated, so internet access is generally good and not too pricey. i pay about £30/month for 150/20, and can get 250 for a little bit more. [12:03] you guys are lucky , we pay the highest rates for crappy speeds, but some of it has to do with vast distances the networks have to cover here [12:07] of course that has an impact, here the main problem is mountains in the way. a big bonus is that we laid down tons of fiber really early, so just about everything is fiber today. [12:08] ducasse, oh we have fiber , they just charge waaay too much for it's service [12:08] :) [12:10] I'm retired on fixed income, so I watch my expenses, and I need patience, but our needs for bandwidth aren't very high [12:10] i think 1gbit symmetrical fiber to my house costs ~£50/month, but the installation costs a bit so i haven't bothered. don't need it either, i'm not a big torrenter or anything. [12:11] right [12:11] i get disabilty benefits myself, so i also need to watch my expenses. [12:12] it's just wifey and me and we run maybe 2 pcs at a time sometimes 3 if i use the laptop [12:12] besides, 150mbit is _plenty_ for just about everything. [12:13] yeah I would say so :-0 [12:13] lol dang, you guys i pay 30€/month for 16/1 mbit [12:14] de-facto: wow, that's pretty bad. where are you? [12:15] germany, its really bad here, they squeeze out the most they can get of the old telephone wires with aDSL [12:16] de-facto: wow, i thought germany was pretty similar to norway. guess not :-/ [12:16] alternative is tv cable providers, there you can get like 120/6 mbit for that price [12:17] nope, i wish the would offer fiber or such, but afaik its only for some tests or such [12:18] also its the most expensive market for mobile data rates in europe i read [12:18] cable is what i have now, for about that price but i get better upload speeds. the whole network is fiber, except copper from node to home. they'll be upgrading that to fiber this summer. [12:19] wow lucky you... i wish i could kick those ISP's here to invest more in their infrastructure [12:19] mobile isn't really cheap here, and it has these idiotic caps, but i don't really use it. [12:20] I guess 40 bucks US/month (converted from Canadian) isn't too bad fro 6mb ADSL mhere in the boonies, fiber from the local cable company is available , but I refuse to pay 80 US for 50mb, i'much faster , but my friends say it's throttled a lot [12:20] it's [12:20] i think the main reason is they all invested in fiber very early, so it's already in the ground. [12:21] they throttle so you don't get 50mbps sustained? [12:22] yup [12:22] fiber is the only data link that really makes sense, all the others sound to me like "oh, look we already have some infrastructure avail, how can we make use of it so we can sell something for data connections based on that?" [12:22] they carry a lot of tv signals on the same lines and it seems to have priority [12:23] the cable providers here have all seen the light and are moving to make money as isp's in the future, not as tv providers. [12:25] yup because their coaxial cables can carry much broader frequency spectrum than normal telephone wires. though not nearly as much as fiber [12:25] yes there's a lot of cord cutting going on here, and ppl a re dropping cbale and sattv for android boxes and the like [12:25] cable even [12:25] Hey lotus :) [12:25] good afternoon to all [12:25] hey de-facto & BluesKaj [12:25] hi lotuspsychje [12:25] afternoon :) [12:26] hi ducasse :p [12:27] BluesKaj, de-facto gnome-software bug for not installing external .deb has been patched on latest update [12:27] !info gnome-software [12:27] gnome-software (source: gnome-software): Software Center for GNOME. In component main, is optional. Version 3.20.1+git20160426.1.a976144-ubuntu-xenial-0ubuntu1 (xenial), package size 236 kB, installed size 1058 kB [12:27] spread the word :p [12:27] in -proposed? [12:27] main [12:27] oh nice one, so it can provide most of the functionality gdebi could? [12:28] should be fixxed [12:29] hmm i even find terminal apps now [12:29] like terminator, nmap [12:29] oh cowsay not [12:31] to be honest i did not gain much experience with gnome-software yet, i always sticked to my old friends synaptic and gdebi or commend line apt, apt-get and even aptitude sometimes [12:31] like apt best myself, but for our newie friends out there..:p [12:31] apt ftw, in 16.04 it has become really nice to use. [12:32] gnome-software looks pretty clean (which i like), but it still lacks some functionality imho [12:32] ducasse: agree, simple and clean [12:32] with the progress bar ######### [12:32] for example list files of installed software, dependencies and all that [12:32] amazing [12:33] now im trying to bug out as much as possible, so we get a clean 16.04.1 [12:33] absolutely. even the output from apt search is nicer than from apt-cache. [12:34] .1 needs to be solid, ubuntu has gotten a lot of flak over xenial... [12:34] gnome-software might be pretty nice for starters, but i really miss a "advanced details" options button or such [12:35] can apt search packages on repos that arent active? like partner? [12:35] 16.04 was a bit immature for an official release IME, the bugs were serious ones [12:35] BluesKaj: yeah agree [12:36] this particular one even got famous on omgubuntu [12:36] me three, even though it's been ok here. my machines are really stripped down, though, not typical desktop installs. [12:36] ducasse: stripped wich way? [12:37] as in 'thrown out a lot of stuff'. [12:37] cool [12:38] great idea for ubuntu-desktop to act lightweight also [12:38] ducasse which of the programs installed per default did you throw out? *curious* [12:38] yeah im curious too [12:39] de-facto: i clean stuff mostly with bleachbit for couple gigs [12:39] ubuntu-desktop task, for one, and everything that comes with it. just install x.org, i3 and tmux. [12:39] oh wow thats a lot then [12:40] ducasse: can you systemd-analyze the output? [12:40] lotuspsychje@RooTBooK:~$ systemd-analyze [12:40] Startup finished in 5.142s (kernel) + 6.042s (userspace) = 11.185s [12:40] lotuspsychje_ yes i use that too, i defined a profile and invoke that from easystroke mouse gestures, so one mouse gesture is a systemwide cleanup with bleachbit [12:41] this is so nice about linux, the user got lots of choices [12:41] wow your userspace is pretty fast [12:41] Startup finished in 4.034s (kernel) + 18.048s (userspace) = 22.082s [12:41] sup [12:41] hey :) [12:41] de-facto: samsung 850 pro ssd :p [12:42] hey :) [12:42] hey EriC^^ [12:42] hey lotuspsychje_ [12:42] i have the 850 evo :) [12:42] im still looking for a gui systemd manager [12:42] we all must be samsung evo fanboys here [12:42] like disable cups on netbook and such [12:43] i found a nice article on systemd lately, lemme refind [12:43] what to disable and whatnots [12:43] disabling stuff doesn't make much of a difference i think, i dunno [12:43] im still using Corsair CSSD-F120GB2 with the good old 34nm flash chips from intel/micron and the SandForce SF-1200 [12:44] i tried disabling a lot of stuff and booting and doing systemctl-analyze [12:44] lotuspsychje_: What about this https://github.com/mmstick/systemd-manager? [12:44] i'm looking at one of the intel m2 drives for a new root, they look nice. [12:44] boot improved just a tiny bit [12:44] Switches: GUI looking neat there [12:45] lotuspsychje_: What spec machine is that on, my basic 16.04 install gives:- [12:45] Startup finished in 1.893s (firmware) + 6.899s (loader) + 1.856s (kernel) + 8.222s (userspace) = 18.871s [12:45] And thats on an i7 with ssd & 8gb ram [12:46] DJones: an acer aspire one netbook with 4gig ram :p [12:46] DJones: but i tweak alot of stuff [12:46] Heh, good going, have you disabled anything from startup [12:46] yes [12:46] That explains [12:46] it [12:47] i did that sed line to see startup items, disable unneeded [12:47] and install preload [12:47] Switches nice one ! [12:47] clean system with bleachbit [12:47] but most speed comes from the 850 pro ssd [12:47] Mine doesn't have anything disabled, but I don't notice much delay anyway [12:47] Isn't my work, but I do use it a lot on my machines [12:48] I never thought an ssd would make that much difference, but when I put one in the laptop, I was really impressed at the difference [12:48] DJones: wich brand are you on? [12:49] lotuspsychje_, agreed , the improved boot speed on my old amd 5200+ with the SSD is probly close to factor of 5 vs the old hdd [12:49] tried putting a spare ssd in my laptop, but this stupid hp has a whitelist. [12:49] whats a whitelist? [12:49] really [12:49] which hp? [12:49] hp pavilion g6 here [12:49] hp g62. [12:50] whitelist is a list of approved parts with hp part numbers. [12:50] A whitelist for hp hardware is unusual.. Some weird bios requirements maybe? [12:50] lotuspsychje_: Crucial CT512 according to hwinfo [12:50] there must be a vast improvement in battery life on ssd equipped laptops [12:51] DJones: thats a fast one also, did you check its website for recent firmware upgrades? [12:51] Couldn't remember which one I'd bought without going upstairs to look at the box [12:51] No, I've not looked at that [12:51] hmm most of the time systemd spends ( "systemd-analyze plot > /tmp/bootup-graph.svg && xdg-open /tmp/bootup-graph.svg" ) on waiting for network-online target, its my fault i guess having two gbit + wlan + virbr and all that installed at once [12:52] DJones: speed can matter alot on firmware update also [12:52] mine mostly takes time setting up zfs, it takes forever... [12:52] I don't really need speed, most I do is pidgin, ssh/byobu, corebird, email, chrome & minecraft [12:52] the systemd article: https://www.linux.com/learn/cleaning-your-linux-startup-process [12:52] Occasionally hexchat to connect to undernet [12:56] friendly-recovery service what does that? [12:57] and ufw-service can we get rid of that? [13:00] hmm probably depends on if you use those i guess [13:01] im gonna disable a whole list holdon lol [13:01] be careful now, lotuspsychje_ :) [13:01] lolz [13:01] im reading :p [13:02] wow, dont screw up your setup... isnt there a way to backup the current state before? [13:02] ufw is ubuntu fire wall service, friendly-recovery I think is the something to do with backups (don't quote me though) [13:03] ufw is disabled by default, why does systemd starting it by default then? [13:03] i even installed clamav, i know its pretty much useless on linux to have av scanner, but hey if i do online banking they require me to have such software installed, so i got it :P [13:04] de-facto: ive seen recent linux exploits on clamav's database..so its not really useless these days [13:05] lotuspsychje_: Not sure, if it's disabled systemd shouldn't enable it. Maybe it just makes a link incase you do start it? [13:05] if found that rootkit that guy posted in #ubuntu some weeks ago, i did download it and stuffed in in a tar.gz in ~/Downloads [13:05] ill dsiable it also [13:06] lotuspsychje_: "disable all the things!" is your new motto? [13:06] unneeded yes :p [13:06] :D [13:07] i dont have bluetooth on this netbook, why enable it? [13:07] because it would be plug and play if you use it in future? [13:07] True, I guess it has a lot turnt on by default [13:07] and im not sure why startup items dont show all system units aswell? [13:08] i wish that rust manager would display dependencies in sytemd units, woudl be much easier to disable them then [13:10] http://paste.ubuntu.com/16654786/ [13:10] here my disabled list [13:10] lotuspsychje@RooTBooK:~$ systemd-analyze [13:10] Startup finished in 5.142s (kernel) + 6.042s (userspace) = 11.185s [13:10] ok reboot time, lets see if this stuff doe something :p [13:13] Startup finished in 4.556s (kernel) + 5.865s (userspace) = 10.421s [13:13] nice! [13:13] lol [13:13] dont give me that look, every second counts haha [13:14] happy now? :) [13:14] !life [13:14] life is something very few people know about in this channel - and anyway, it's probably offtopic, perhaps you want to try #ubuntu-offtopic [13:14] Wouldn't know, not interested in boot speeds most the time as I rarely reboot xD [13:14] Switches: i dont like the idea of a pc 24/7 [13:14] Think mine is like 30 odd seconds [13:15] Don't have much choice tbh machine is pretty much always doing something I've told it to lol [13:16] Only time I restart it is when I decide to rip parts out for replacements [13:16] up 52 days, 22:51 [13:16] See ducasse is another one! [13:16] * ducasse hates kernel updates [13:17] i dont like the idea of leaving a pc behind while im afk [13:17] who knows poking around your system [13:17] Well If you're somewhere where people can poke around it's not good [13:18] somewhere? [13:18] Ok.. I was being optimistic... anywhere xD [13:18] loool i tried to visualize dependencies with "systemd-analyze dot | dot -Tsvg > systemd.svg" and it produced 1.1 MB ( !!! ) of SVG [13:18] lol [13:18] wow [13:19] looks like a bowl of spagetti when i open it [13:19] i found more stuff to disable in startup items [13:19] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ShowHiddenStartupApplications [13:19] lets see if i can get more seconds :p [13:20] rofl now thats dedication [13:20] oO [13:21] 10 second boot and he still wants it faster xD [13:21] wb lotuspsychje [13:21] tnx [13:21] will you give up if you end in milliseconds range? [13:21] *note to self never let lotuspsychje near servers he would be trying to make sub 5s boot [13:22] Startup finished in 5.135s (kernel) + 5.570s (userspace) = 10.705s [13:22] lol :p [13:22] wth? [13:22] it went up! [13:22] lol [13:22] jitter? [13:22] still pretty slow here evenb after alkl the edits , Startup finished in 5.526s (kernel) + 34.568s (userspace) = 40.094s [13:23] all [13:23] thats on latest kde yakkety BluesKaj ? [13:23] yes [13:23] old pc tho [13:23] plasma is heavy on gui also i presume? [13:23] I have apps like kodi installed too [13:24] I need more coffee. [13:24] this our HTPC/ Media server with an outboard HDD attached vioa sata [13:25] ah [13:25] * Switches Waits for lotuspsychje to enable warp mode on his pc [13:25] lol Switches [13:25] i guess every boot gonna give different systemd-analyze [13:26] its live measurement right [13:27] lotuspsychje, it's still a lot faster than the old hdd [13:28] * lotuspsychje is bleachbit cleaning [13:28] I still have to run the systemctl edits on the Xenial install which is my main OS atm [13:30] changed quiet splash also [13:36] lotuspsychje jup thats what i meant by jitter [13:36] would be interessting on what external influences it depends the most though [13:37] de-facto: yeah would be interesting [13:40] run systemd-analyze after a few boots and see where the biggest variations are. [13:40] hmm ufw.service enables by default after a next reboot [13:41] ok rebooting with text mode [13:41] you can try masking it. [13:42] He will get the boot so fast the comp will be waiting on the bios to load :p [13:45] Oh anyone tried Dota2 with Vulkan yet? was testing it early hours.. it even runs on my 750ti at max settings @40+FPS [13:47] Startup finished in 4.532s (kernel) + 5.875s (userspace) = 10.407s [13:47] thats gonna be it [13:47] wb Geordie Laforge a.k.a lotuspsychje :p [13:47] lol [13:48] That's an impressive time for sure though [13:48] not bad at all [13:49] But the question is... does it run minecraft?! [13:49] lol [13:51] bah! [13:51] Startup finished in 3.260s (kernel) + 4.248s (userspace) = 7.508s [13:51] :P [13:51] wow! [13:51] you cheated and removed unity :p [13:52] yes, i did :) [13:52] lol [13:52] show us that i3 desktop screenshot? im curious [13:53] ...and network manager and tons of other stuff. [13:53] wicd? [13:53] i3?! jesus been years since I used that [13:53] i3 is very popular [13:53] Was a big fan of ratpoison for ages [13:55] http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/customization/screenshots/nix/?order=5 [13:55] latest desktop shots on deviant [13:56] ducasse, /etc/network/interfaces and /etc/resolv.conf with sstaic IP settings ? [13:56] static even [13:56] /e/n/i with static settings, yes. [13:56] Some of them look interesting [13:57] ducasse, any vpn or vps / [13:57] i3 is actually *really* nice to use, especially on this small-screen laptop. [13:57] vpn or vps? [13:57] Always liked enlightenment till the 19 series. Aint tried it much since then [13:59] e19 is actually quite nice on multihead systems, used it on my desktop for a while, but there are soooo many ugly usability bugs. [13:59] enlightment is cool [13:59] but very buggy indeed [13:59] the developers seem to have some strange priorities. [13:59] ducasse: Yeah I found that, couldn't work my way around them so just stuck to gnome [14:01] ducasse, well vpn server service ..I've been trying to figutr out how to drop NM and go back to using network interfaces etc settings including my vpn service which relies on nm-openvpn. [14:01] oh, i just use openvpn --config configfile whenever i need to use it. but that's pretty rare, admittedly. [14:07] http://news.softpedia.com/news/meet-udoo-x86-a-maker-board-that-s-10-times-more-powerful-than-raspberry-pi-3-504400.shtml [14:10] the price is not bad, but it's a very different beast to the rpi. [14:12] crazy technology [14:12] where will this end :p [14:13] sure, would be fun to have, even though i don't know what i'd use it for :) [14:13] neither here [14:14] i will be getting an rpi3, though, so i can upgrade my rpi2 with openelec. [14:14] cool [14:15] costs so little, so there's no reason not to :) [14:16] have you seen this? https://www.nitrokey.com/ [14:16] lets c [14:17] ducasse: neat! [14:18] the storage thingy looks nice. verifiable firmware, hidden volumes and everything. [14:18] *and* full linux support! [14:18] yeah just browsing downloads [14:19] i wonder if its autorun proof on windows :p [14:20] i'm a bit annoyed that not all versions support u2f, but i already have the yubikey for that. [14:21] you know this one? [14:21] !info prey [14:21] prey (source: prey): utility for tracking stolen computers. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.6.2-1.1 (xenial), package size 513 kB, installed size 1178 kB [14:22] hmm, nice. need to look closer at that. [14:22] so many things in the repos, so little time to play with them :) [14:23] the only thing i dont really like [14:23] is the database happens online [14:23] should be the users choice, where to send stuff [14:23] like your sisters email, example [14:24] says it can call out to a custom url? [14:25] ducasse: yeah but customers are stored on their database [14:26] i dont really like paid plans and cloud storage, but thats personal :p [14:26] me neither, i have a vps for all my stuff that needs to live in the 'cloud'. [14:27] yeah [14:27] <\9> I wonder could one put together a mini server farm with a few dozen Raspberry Pis [14:27] yes, i've read an article on a pi cluster :) [14:28] <\9> ha [14:28] 64 of them, iirc. [14:28] https://www.element14.com/community/community/raspberry-pi/blog/2016/03/16/build-servers-with-raspberry-pi-3-bitscope-blade [14:29] cluster is even more crazy ducasse [14:30] yes, i wonder who would want to do that :) [14:30] proof of concept, i guess. [14:30] <\9> hmm yeah since they all use wifi, you don't even need to use any network cables [14:30] <\9> hey [14:31] <\9> it's a server cluster that you can take with you [14:31] <\9> just need a cool enough case and it should be all self-contained and portalb [14:31] <\9> portable [14:31] that's something to whip up in a cafe :) [14:32] lol [14:33] in a business case-on-the-go server park [14:33] <\9> hmm apparently they don't have much ram [14:33] <\9> reading the comments [14:33] <\9> heh a server farm in a briefcase [14:34] <\9> I wonder could one just slip in a few SSDs for swap [14:34] connected to what? [14:34] there's no sata. [14:34] <\9> apparently SATA-USB adapters exist [14:34] but usb would bottleneck [14:34] <\9> hrm, true [14:35] <\9> and having a ton of them would probably be costly [14:37] yeah it's the peripherals that add up [14:38] http://www.technology.org/2015/07/21/msata-ssd-for-the-raspberry-pi/ [14:38] lol [14:39] <\9> nevertheless the concept is most intriguing [14:39] and cheap [14:39] * ducasse has always wanted a cluster [14:40] <\9> I've always too wanted a cluster, and never once figured out what on earth would I do with it [14:40] me neither, but why is that important? [14:41] http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Reverts-FBDEV-Change well thats good to see [14:42] well, when this old pc dies , a small board like those rpi 's etc wll probly fit my neeeds [14:44] http://swaywm.org/ [14:44] *drool* [14:56] ducasse: neat [14:56] we havent seen the end of this all [14:56] i don't have purist tendencies, and i agree that some guis are more useless than others, but I do love the terminal and what it can do. [14:57] thats the only thing that will never vanish :p good ol terminal [14:57] BluesKaj: then you would love i3. the combination of i3, roxterm and tmux is *nice*. i almost never use the mouse. [14:59] we all have our flavor likes [14:59] I'm not big on KB exclusivity, I still like the mouse [15:00] i just find the keyboard to be so much faster, except when i'm using a browser. [15:04] i like both worlds, eyecandy + power of the cli [15:05] ive used instrument interfaces over the years on the job and I hated all the typing and shift keys with a passion so when we acquired intruments with monitor KB and mouse we rejoiced, so i guess the typing thing has never had much appeal to me since ;-) === Oer is now known as OerHeks [15:22] ducasse, and i'm not a very good typist :-) [15:24] hey OerHeks [15:24] BluesKaj: that's a *very* good argument :) actually, i'm on the hunt for a new mouse. i'm really picky, and i want something high-quality with many buttons. problem is many of the nice gaming mice requires windows software to configure. [15:26] ducasse, yeah I'm not a gamer so a simple mouse with 3 ctrls is all I need [15:27] BluesKaj: i don't want it for games, i want to bind functions to the buttons. [15:27] * BluesKaj nods, understood [15:30] ducasse: Have a look at the Roccat Tyon, they have Linux drivers for a whole load of their keyboards, mice and headsets [15:30] oh, thanks - i'll check them out. [15:31]