[00:00] <geirdal> no time for art
[00:00] <geirdal> only develope
[00:01] <OvenWerks> That is up to you. I am playing with people a couple of times a week at least though. just not recording.
[00:04] <geirdal> you are playing thats the most important thing
[00:07] <geirdal> and you are here trying to improve artist workflow!
[00:12] <geirdal> thats respect
[00:14] <OvenWerks> Ga, someone else's commit has broken my stuff :P
[00:20] <geirdal> I have a feeling that most of the artist here are audio artist! is that true?
[00:40] <OvenWerks> yes, that has been one of our problems. We need  more video and graphic artists
[00:59] <geirdal> the category "graphic deign" bugs me, iam not a graphig designer, iam painter that is not the same
[01:06] <geirdal> A graphic artist yes but not a designer
[19:49] <geirdal> does game engine fit the in studio like http://www.godotengine.org ?
[19:53] <geirdal> are games art?
[19:57] <OvenWerks> To me, Games are development and development may include art. I don't see art as including development though. Just my opinion.
[19:58] <geirdal> but is video more art the interactive video?
[19:58] <geirdal> than
[19:59] <OvenWerks> I don't know, but not the same thing... I think.
[20:01] <geirdal> but would studio not gain from it to have game developers, they use alot af software in the studio
[20:02] <OvenWerks> I would not be making such a decision anyway.... but, I will say, that would just be asking to fill the #ubuntustudio game players asking how to do this and that... and being disapointed :)
[20:05] <geirdal> cant they have their own channel?
[20:07] <geirdal> something like #ubuntustudio-games?
[21:59] <autumna> OvenWerks: geirdal: I would argue that development is part of game, it is hard to split it. besides I have recently seen contemporary art pieces (no not games) made in unity. so it is really hard to split game creation/design from the rest of the arts
[22:01] <autumna> besides an integral part of game design, is the level/interaction, which can't be simplified into graphics.
[22:03] <autumna> (re gamers: I would think having a ubuntu gaming channel, for all ubuntu flavors would make a lot more sense. I am not sure if there is any specific issues or challenges or tips for ubuntu studio to play games) 
[22:30] <geirdal> may
[22:31] <geirdal> maybe not games but with a game engine you can make interactive art
[22:32] <autumna> I would say that there is a difference between interactive art and game. and there is both. interactive art, and art games
[22:33] <autumna> these are definitely two categories with overlap. 
[22:35] <geirdal> yes it is
[22:37] <autumna> I don't know I am not sure it makes sense to me to split of "game development" tools as not art tools, when we have audio development tools, and visual art development tools. *shrugs*
[22:38] <geirdal> it should be under graphics
[22:40] <geirdal> but games are like video, uses audio and graphics 
[22:40] <autumna> and interactivity which is its own thing
[22:41] <geirdal> yes of course
[22:41] <autumna> like where do you put:http://twinery.org/
[22:43] <geirdal> I see what you mean but oil colors can be used to paint advertising sign and create art
[22:43] <geirdal> what is the diffrence
[22:44] <autumna> that's not the same thing through. when you paint an oil painting of a word, that still is a whole with its dimensions, and visual elements and commentary
[22:44] <autumna> vs IFFs are literally just the text. (well some aren't but that is another story) 
[22:46] <OvenWerks> All of these things do make sense (in my limited knowledge of the area) and it is not an easy thing for me to see. I have seen so many IRC queries already "I can't get the audio in <game> to work What do I do?" and I find out these are people running vanilla... and I am asking why did you come here? "someone sent me".  :P
[22:47] <autumna> this is not a clear cut problem at all, don't be mistaken. (same with where does game become art) I am arguing here. :)  
[22:48] <autumna> irc queries in ubuntustudio?
[22:48] <OvenWerks> yes
[22:49] <autumna> yeah well they can definitely ask, just like they can ask desktop related questions like how do I get my networking to work. 
[22:50] <geirdal> ovenWerks: should the answer not to be: go see the project webside?
[22:50] <autumna> they simply come to their distro as starting point, because for a user I am not sure it is always clear what the problem is. 
[22:50] <OvenWerks> quite honestly I do not have the time to spend answering anything about games. I don't really enjoy that kind of thing... coding is so much more challenging.
[22:50] <autumna> (oh hi ovenwerks)
[22:51] <autumna> is there a place we can reroute them to? the way we forward package specific problems?
[22:51] <OvenWerks> geirdal: yes, once I find that out what they are after... a lot are just asking about audio for another flavour, not about playing games on studio.
[22:52] <OvenWerks> Sometimes I find out after getting them half way through a jack install set up :)
[22:53] <OvenWerks> That I should be sending them back to the flavour that they are running
[22:54] <geirdal> but can it not be clear that game questions are on some other channel?
[22:54] <OvenWerks> The number of questions I get about what SW should I use to rip cd/dvd after I have told them I am not interested in helping them do so is anoying. Most of them insisting that of course I do these things too.
[22:55] <geirdal> or are they thinking that this is the right place because it is so comlicated to them?
[22:55] <OvenWerks> People do not read topics
[22:55] <geirdal> ok
[22:57] <OvenWerks> I have found that there is generally a wide gap between artists or developers and consummers. I would rather deal with the former... but maybe I am just getting old and crotchety ;)
[22:57] <autumna> lol
[22:57] <geirdal> hahaha
[22:58] <autumna> well artists are also consummers in this case?
[23:02] <geirdal> maybe Iam not talking about game engine for game player but for interactive art?
[23:02] <OvenWerks> Yes, but... They are also developers in a sense too. They are making things they expect other people to enjoy.
[23:04] <autumna> well.. 
[23:06] <geirdal> all artist are making things they expect other people to enjoy.
[23:06] <autumna> I guess. I think I assume developers involving making something interactive. but where do we pull the line. 
[23:06] <autumna> (I think I missed a couple lines of the chat)
[23:08] <geirdal> thats another question, where is the line?
[23:09] <OvenWerks> There is a large group of people who buy computers to play games. Many of them are not very smart and if they have used another OS with comertial games they have expectations of how things work. Many of them are on the younger end of things and are the younger people who have not learned how to interact with people. If they want something to work they tend to be pushy as if they had paid for something and somehow the person they are talk
[23:10] <OvenWerks> I think that is what I have been trying to say all along. I personally don't like dealing with game player who need help. That really has nothing to do with what SW we should have.
[23:11] <autumna> I would actually caution against calling gamers not very smart. as a category. (actually this goes for any type of audience). also gamers on PCs tends to be power users, which is where the problem sometimes occurs, because they need to really use a lot more on a desktop so to speak. not wanting to deal with those questions because it is not the topic of ubuntu studio is a different issue
[23:11] <autumna> we could have a policy to redirect such questions to main ubuntu channels, and winehq/playonlinux if they are using wine
[23:12] <autumna> I have yet to run into a game specific problem on native linux games, but then again, I haven't been doing that much gaming on linux so far
[23:12] <OvenWerks> yes, I am talking about the ones who have showed up here. There are some very intelgent people who play and or develop games. but I think also some of the dumbest ones are there as well...
[23:13] <geirdal> but how can you stop stuoid people to come here and ask questions?
[23:14] <autumna> *shrugs* silly questions happens to anyone, and it is normal, so is frustrated people. 
[23:14] <OvenWerks> can't, what I am saying I personally would prefer not to hang up a sign that might say "try here".
[23:15] <autumna> I think the main issue really is that we are not a gaming focused distro, nor have the resources to deal with gaming specific questions, which gets back to, maybe there needs to be a community to ask questions that are game installation/playing specific. (if there isn't already)
[23:15] <OvenWerks> And I must strees this is all very personal opinion. I am not at all trying to make my personal feels STudio policy
[23:16] <geirdal> of course
[23:16] <OvenWerks> If there is a general feeling that game engine development should be supported, I would not say no.
[23:17] <autumna> OvenWerks I understand. :) frankly I don't think there is a lot of gamers in this devel group, and even if there was, that goes back to, this needs to be rerouted ideally. ;D 
[23:18]  * OvenWerks has a daugher in law who has developed games and graphics for them. I am actually quite proud of her. And no she is not dumb.
[23:18] <autumna> as for game development tools this is something I was planning to bring up for 17.04. ;D but then again it is up to the whole group. 
[23:19] <autumna> OvenWerks: that's awesome. (AAA games? or indie games?)
[23:20] <OvenWerks> we do already have some tools that are advertised as game graphics development tools.
[23:20] <autumna> I don't think blender counts. (blender is like "we do EVERYTHING!" tool) 
[23:20] <autumna> :P
[23:20] <autumna> but true
[23:21] <OvenWerks> I am not sure about what my DIL was working withI think they ended up on cartridges.
[23:21] <autumna> ah
[23:22] <autumna> speaking of development tools
[23:22] <autumna> is there a precendent as to how tools/software that doesn't exactly require installation are handled?
[23:22] <OvenWerks> Synfig is the one I was thinking of, but I am seeing their home page is much more rounded than the last time I looked.
[23:23] <autumna> wait synfig.. game development????? 
[23:23] <geirdal> no
[23:23] <OvenWerks> Graphics for games.
[23:24] <geirdal> prototyping in blender! yes but not synfig
[23:24] <geirdal> so does Gimp, Krita
[23:24] <OvenWerks> But it has been a long time since I really looked, I could be mistaken.
[23:25] <autumna> yeah I think it is pretty much plain animation tool, not sure if they have any gaming specific aspects to it, but then again, I never got around to using synfig
[23:25] <geirdal> I know synfig. very hard tool to use
[23:25] <autumna> I have a bad habit to code, when things get complex, rather than use conventional animation tools
[23:26] <autumna> geirdal: I only superficially experimented with it so can't exactly comment 
[23:27] <geirdal> I dont use it, Hate it
[23:27] <autumna> heh
[23:28] <autumna> but yeah I am kind of curious if it would be possible, (later, not like next release) to somehow add processing and p5js editors in 
[23:29] <autumna> on one hand people can just download and run(well processing, p5js editor requires npm and linux version isn't ready yet) on other hand, it is pretty basic tool for electronic artists and it is weird that it US doesn't come with it. 
[23:29] <autumna> just another thing to think about
[23:29] <geirdal> yes! digital artist needs to be at least a little bit of coder
[23:29] <autumna> :)))
[23:29] <OvenWerks> I've been (sometimes vocally) hoping for more graphics people to come along... so when they do I would also like to get out of the way and let them work at what they know and I don't.
[23:30] <autumna> well it seems now we have 3! at least, and different focuses too which is great. 
[23:31] <geirdal> :)
[23:31] <autumna> I think part of it is that, we don't need the low latency kernel, which means it is not as crucial for a graphic artist to use ubuntu studio, but a) it is great to have the audio setup in hand if need be b) pretty and lightweight is nice. 
[23:32] <autumna> (I suppose pretty part is very personal preference thing)
[23:32] <geirdal> autum: wellspoken
[23:33] <autumna> :)
[23:33] <autumna> (and geirdal you might not know this but OvenWerks, is a veritable information source for anything audio related)
[23:34] <geirdal> ye s He told me yesterday, 
[23:34] <OvenWerks> lowlatency no, running in performance rather than ondemand supposedly speeds up rendering a noticable amount.
[23:34] <autumna> oh really????
[23:34]  * autumna had no idea
[23:35] <OvenWerks> That is one of the tools that should be added to -controls.
[23:35] <autumna> wait, the default of US is performance or ondemand? *newbie question*
[23:36] <OvenWerks> The graphics part of things is one of the reasons we don't want to go default RT kernel.
[23:36] <OvenWerks> it ends up in ondemand.
[23:36] <autumna> *listens*
[23:37] <autumna> I see
[23:37] <OvenWerks>  It is one of the things that an Ardour install from ardour.org flags. Most of us who actuall do audio at all have changed system files...
[23:38] <OvenWerks>  or installed cadence
[23:38] <OvenWerks> (not in our repos)
[23:38] <autumna> *nods*
[23:38] <autumna> so ideally a user would be able to change it back and forth, based on what they are doing?
[23:39] <OvenWerks> The problem with changing it on startup is that the system comes along about 60 sec after start up and returns it to ondemand.
[23:39] <OvenWerks> Yes.
[23:39] <OvenWerks> (has to be done for each cpu core)
[23:40]  * autumna goes to find if we have a controls blueprint yet
[23:41] <autumna> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-y-development is this something we want to add here?
[23:41] <autumna> or not yet?
[23:42] <OvenWerks> The interesting (for audio) is that I get better "performance" forcing the cpu speed to stay at 800Mhz than letting ondemand raise and lower the speed. It seems I get xruns at the point ondemand slows a core down.
[23:43] <OvenWerks> It should probably be on there. I am not sure what order zequence wants to add functions to it.
[23:43] <autumna> its not
[23:43] <OvenWerks> I think it is writen in python though, so whoever knows python well enough can do it.
[23:43] <autumna> well I can add it to bottom so that we don't forget, and zequence or sakrecoer or other folks can remove/move it 
[23:44] <OvenWerks> Sure.
[23:44] <autumna> If I am going to deal with wacom tablet settings I will have to learn python anyway, and I think zequence wrote controls so he might be able to look into it too
[23:45] <OvenWerks> -controls already has a method for getting system access for setting group and RT stuff.
[23:47] <autumna> ah
[23:48]  * autumna is really not familiar with the -controls code
[23:49] <autumna> ok it is 3am so I am going to log off
[23:50] <autumna> thanks for the great talk, and see you guys later
[23:50] <autumna> :)
[23:50] <geirdal> good night
[23:51] <autumna> gnight