[00:22] <OvenWerks> I don't think there would be a problem with a change like that, just ask sakrecoer 
[00:27] <geirdal> a little thing thats is bothering me, hehe not a big deal!
[00:29] <geirdal> but it still bothers me!
[00:31] <OvenWerks> geirdal: the file to change would be in -menu /usr/share/desktop-directories/
[00:39] <geirdal> thank i have done it, it looks better :)
[00:40] <geirdal> looks more welcoming
[05:23] <sakrecoer> geirdal: "graphic artist are not all graphic designers" the artist and the designer both do graphics, right? :D I'm not against your idea, but i feel "Visual Production" realy means "Graphics". TBH i never realized the menu says "Design" since we mostly talk about the "graphics workflow" :)
[05:24] <sakrecoer> However, since we include photography in that menu, your proposal makes a lot of sense.
[05:28] <sakrecoer> But it makes me wonder if just "Graphics" would be enough? OvenWerks, as a native english speaking cyberking, what do you think? :)
[09:26] <zequence> sakrecoer: I prefer that too (only graphics)
[09:27] <zequence> In fact, I put some effort in making the menu as standardized as possible
[09:27] <zequence> This is the reason for the freedesktop file blueprint
[09:27] <zequence> Ross did some work on that some time ago. But, now it's a bit dead in the water, until someone (like me) picks it up.
[09:41] <autumna> sakrecoer: not all artists do "graphics" exactly. visual technically also includes video but I guess it is an improvement. 
[09:42] <autumna> graphics tends to mean design
[09:42] <zequence> The reason for the initial names I think was due to Scotts idea to make the menu workflow based, which is something I was always against
[09:43] <zequence> Scott was the project lead before me
[09:43] <zequence> The menu is for categorizing tools, not workflows
[09:43] <zequence> I think it's important to not get confused about this
[09:44] <sakrecoer> autumna: sure, but all "graphic artists" do graphics :D
[09:44] <zequence> And, there is a standard for these categories, which we should follow
[09:44] <zequence> We can't fully yet, because so much is not following the freedesktop categories
[09:44] <zequence> https://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
[09:44] <zequence> But, if we choose to use the menu for advanced categorization, we need to make sure everything works with it
[09:45] <zequence> So, it's a huge task
[09:45] <zequence> Anything else to me is just weird
[09:45] <autumna> I do like that we do have some specific menus, although I can see the workload
[09:45] <autumna> sakrecoer: not all artists or visual artists are "graphic artists" :D
[09:45] <sakrecoer> "visual production" could include video in this sense... i had a similar thing on my mind when i first got involved here :) 2 workflows a) audio 2) visual, but soon i understood it wasn't very apropriate, mainly for the reasons zequence just described..
[09:45] <sakrecoer> autumna: yeah, sorry i was just playing with the simantics of how geirdal put it :)
[09:46] <sakrecoer> *semantics
[09:46] <zequence> sakrecoer: Video and audio have a common category in the standard, but not video and graphics
[09:46] <autumna> this is where I can go into how splitting art by medium is a modern construct, and that post-modern art doesn't follow these rigid structures, but I won't. mostly I don't want to be getting hit with tomatoes and small objects
[09:46] <autumna> :D
[09:46] <zequence> Again, there is a standard. Let's follow that. And, if you want to change it, do it where it is decided, not here
[09:47] <autumna> a solution I imagine could be interesting is to have everything in default categories, but have the ubuntu specific menus somewhere anyway. not as an exhaustive structure, but additional organization. since tags came to be, it is not that weird to have a software in 2 menus
[09:47] <zequence> The title for the menu items is not standardized, just to be clear - we can choose any titles we want
[09:48] <zequence> But, the actual categories are standardized. And, applications follow those with their desktop files
[09:49] <sakrecoer> then again, visual artist who doesn't do anything "graphics" related rarly use the computer as a tool to craft their art. i consider prints, picture files and 3d prints to be "graphicaly produced"...
[09:50] <zequence> It's not a matter for us to reinvent how to categorize tools
[09:50] <sakrecoer> this discussion has emerged at about this time into the cycle every cycle i have been involved in :)
[09:50] <zequence> We just need to make sure we follow the standard
[09:50] <sakrecoer> i'm with you zequence.
[09:51] <sakrecoer> but i think the word "design" could be dropped...
[09:51] <sakrecoer> keeping just "graphics"
[09:51] <zequence> I'm for that
[09:53] <autumna> *ahem*
[09:53] <autumna> sakrecoer I am offended. on behalf of a lot of electronic artists. thank you very much
[09:53] <sakrecoer> "Visual Production" could work too.. or even "Graphic Production"... it would align well with "Audio Production" and "Video Production"
[09:53] <zequence> sakrecoer: About package selection. I have a suggestion about that. How about we do that until feature freeze, then make the changes, and after that we only add packages if that fixes something for us (like syncing with Xubuntu)
[09:54] <sakrecoer> electronic artists, that is? musicians and hackers?
[09:54] <autumna> ;P
[09:54] <zequence> I think it's important to use words that people know, and that are not too far from the actual category
[09:55] <autumna> even contemporary arts using traditional media uses more and more photography and digital techniques at times in their work process. and as for electronic artists, installation artists, people doing net art. 
[09:55] <autumna> zequence I agree with you (and generally I am ok with whatever we decide in terms of naming. I do like the extra menus but I am happy to be overruled on that point *shrugs*)
[09:55] <sakrecoer> electronic artists(what ever that is), installation artists, people doing net art, their final medium is a mix of everything... so we could just have no categories if we wanted to suit them :D
[09:56] <zequence> If the tool maniuplates graphics, it's a graphics tool
[09:56] <zequence> The workflow is not interesting for the menu at all. Just the tool type
[09:56] <sakrecoer> its pretty obvious that gimp, blener, darktable etc are graphic tools. The form of your final product after using them is up to each one to define i think...
[09:57] <sakrecoer> word zequence 
[09:58] <autumna> sakrecoer: I am most definitely not suggesting we have a category for electronic artists that would be very impractical.  :)  
[09:58] <autumna> ok I am convinced by the argument about using graphics :)
[10:02] <sakrecoer> :) also, to be clear, i reach you on your points autumna, but yeah, it has to be a little arbitrary unless we want to have some entries repeat themselves all over the menu..
[10:03] <sakrecoer> or reinvent the desktop categorization wheel :D ...anyways. maybe if there was a new way to open up apps, it could become relevant.
[10:03] <sakrecoer> i mean, i don't think the desktop is in its final form... :)
[10:03] <sakrecoer> as an interface...
[10:03] <autumna> sakrecoer I agree with that. and yes definitely need to consider if it is worth the effort. 
[10:03] <autumna> also it is not like we can't change our mind 2 years down the line *shrugs*
[10:04] <sakrecoer> hehe :)
[10:04] <autumna> we can revisit the issue if it looks like the normal categorizations really aren't granular/accurate enough
[10:04] <autumna> (but I think they are)
[10:05] <autumna> I do want us to feature and highlight software, beyond what is on documentation, but I am not sure what the right format for it is. its something to think about down the line. 
[10:08] <autumna> now onto an unrelated topic
[10:08] <autumna> what happened to the wiki this time?
[10:08] <autumna> *is facing an immutable page*
[10:10] <sakrecoer> oh no....
[10:11] <sakrecoer> autumna: tried reloading the page after login?
[10:11] <sakrecoer> sometimes it does that...
[10:11] <autumna> I am looking logged in. I'll logout and log back in
[10:12] <sakrecoer> try that, and also try just to reload the page once you are logged in
[10:14] <autumna> logging out and back in helped. (reloading wasn't)
[10:14] <autumna> strange
[10:14] <autumna> ..... and "you are not allowed to edit this page"
[10:15] <sakrecoer> yeah, the wiki is certainly not a very friendly robot...
[10:15] <autumna> logs in again* 
[10:15] <sakrecoer> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/, not help.ubuntu , right?
[10:15] <autumna> yeah *sighs* sorry for the extra verbose feedback. lol
[10:15] <autumna> wiki.ubuntu
[10:16] <autumna> (It might very well be a temporary hiccup, it is also taking forever to login)
[10:16] <sakrecoer> hm... i have no problems loging in
[10:16] <autumna> I login, then it forgets I am logged in
[10:17] <sakrecoer> yeah... that happens to me sometimes as well, but, well... reloading a few times sorts it out...
[10:18] <autumna> yeah it works now
[10:18] <sakrecoer> if it doesn't now, i'm not sure what it is... you are in the document group and all...
[10:18] <sakrecoer> \(^^,)/
[10:18] <autumna> oh no I can see that. it was keeping logging me out. 
[10:19] <autumna> sakrecoer what is your time availability like this week?
[10:27] <autumna> the only reason I am asking this is would you by any chance have time to help me with the website content update so that we can finally move this thing. (of course anyone else who wants to join in can)
[10:35] <sakrecoer> autumna: day time, preferably mornings before noon.
[10:36] <autumna> *hug*
[10:36] <autumna> and sounds good
[10:36] <autumna> I am somewhat bad at being around in mornings but at least I can leave information for you to keep going, then take over
[10:39] <autumna> in the afternoon to work. 
[10:43] <sakrecoer> \o/ hug party!!!
[10:43] <sakrecoer> ok, sounds like a good plan!
[10:48] <autumna> heh sorry. I tend to do random hugs a lot. *must be more serious*
[11:10] <sakrecoer> the world *seriously* needs more hugs. those who disagree, are IMHO just, sadly, not used to it :D
[11:17] <autumna> :D
[11:17] <autumna> I like that
[11:17] <autumna> ok re website. sakrecoer can I assume that you and zequence will mostly take the lead on the coordination of documentation creation?
[11:18] <autumna> as in feature tours and highlights of various software as short videos. I mean we will all pitch in but..
[11:19] <autumna> I mean my assumption still is that we will create a bare bone of documentation, then regularly add, or this website will not be done in 2 years ;D
[11:22]  * autumna is disconcertingly rambly today 
[11:28] <sakrecoer> zequence: well, you can count on me. anything zequence is bonus power input. i mean he did express a desire to step down a bit on duties ;)
[11:29] <sakrecoer> that was for autumna
[11:29] <sakrecoer> as in, " autumna: you can count on me. but zequence input is bonus, because he needs to make music :)
[11:30] <autumna> *nods* that's fair. I just don't want to accidentally be shoving people out of work they want to have a say in that's all. (the more the merrier ;D) 
[11:30] <autumna> ;) 
[11:30] <autumna> and that's fair. 
[11:30] <sakrecoer> :)
[11:31] <autumna> :)
[11:31] <autumna>  why can't I keep a sentence straight today!!!!!
[11:31] <autumna> *sighs*
[11:32] <autumna> but yeah I am not sure what to do with the feature tour/discover sections at ALL
[11:32] <autumna> I mean in terms of structure. I'll be happy to contribute text, ideas etc to graphics section when we get to details
[11:33] <sakrecoer> i don't think we need to over think it.. if that makes sense :)
[11:33] <sakrecoer> i think it should look good and the description be well formulated.
[11:33] <sakrecoer> if thats is in it i think we winn.
[11:34] <sakrecoer> now i'm talking feature tour.
[11:34] <sakrecoer> for the rest we already have knome's excellent blogroll
[11:35] <sakrecoer> so we need to look at sweat graphics for the feature tour, possibly some illsutration for the static pages such as "community" "download" etc...
[11:36] <autumna> illustration?
[11:36] <sakrecoer> and then write some kickass sexy text for cool robots like us AND their entire family
[11:36] <autumna> I am fleshing out quite a bit support section
[11:37] <autumna> because I think that's a crucial one, that is returning back to us as confused users
[11:37] <sakrecoer> good point
[11:37] <autumna> and yes
[11:37] <autumna> I have thoughts oh so many thoughts on blog posts
[11:38] <sakrecoer> cool!
[11:38] <autumna> basically I want to see the blog turn into the resource base, with proper tagging
[11:39] <autumna> I mean having a more wiki based approach is also possible, but idk. I am a bit worried about the curse of stale information
[11:42] <sakrecoer> not sure a blog would save us from the "curse of stale information" but i think posting tutorials there would bring more traffic to it...
[11:42] <sakrecoer> the wiki, being quite restrictive these days, still has more editors then the website has...
[11:43] <autumna> *Nods*
[11:43] <autumna> I see it more as at least the content on blog is dated
[11:43] <autumna> :P
[11:43] <autumna> so you know it is stale
[11:43] <autumna> but eh it might be habit. I am constantly worried about how small a team we are
[11:44] <autumna> btw I am jumping from topic to topic, but while I am happy to contribute some photos etc, (and I do have a specific idea for the backgrounds of feature tour in front page, geirdal perhaps might be interested in pitching in there?
[11:45] <autumna> if he has time obviously
[11:46] <sakrecoer> i hope geirdal will, yes, re: worrying, it can be a good thrive to do something about something. but if you put energy on just worrying you lose its meaning :) we are small but strong, yet, we do need to find more people. so focus on finding people whenever you worry about too little people :D
[11:47] <sakrecoer> or write the mountain of stuff down on a piece of paper/txt-file to make surmountable.
[11:47] <autumna> heheheh
[11:48] <sakrecoer> "stuff *to do" and "make *the mountain surmountable :)
[11:48] <autumna> well worrying as in. trying to be mindful that we have limited manpower
[11:49] <autumna> and not getting carried away with too much grandiose ideas. which is so easy to do
[11:49] <sakrecoer> :) that is what i wanted to read <3
[11:50] <autumna> <3
[11:51] <autumna> we have tons of work to do, and 6 months really isn't a lot of time
[11:52] <sakrecoer> well, we don't have to be ground breaking for next release.
[11:52] <sakrecoer> not that we shouldn't, but i think the website is very important atm
[11:53] <sakrecoer> i mean, on that part we are way over due actualy lol
[11:54] <sakrecoer> but hey, it's good to have reminders! missunderstand me right :D
[11:56] <autumna> :) heh, this is me counting myself on the reminder as well
[11:59] <sakrecoer> it sure is good to have you have you in the watchtower lurking at the horizon, autumna.
[11:59] <autumna> *hug* thanks
[11:59] <autumna> ok almost done with my first drap of content and site map sections, as uneven as it currently is
[12:02] <sakrecoer> &=(^^,)  <--- it's a guy holding the thumb up
[12:03] <autumna> lol
[12:53] <autumna> sakrecoer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WebsiteXenial#preview
[12:54] <autumna> my suggestion is to seriously focus on most basic feature, support and download information, then put everything into a priority list to be tackled. 
[13:03] <sakrecoer> cool! i will have to dig into it a little later tho :) but thanks a lot!
[13:05] <autumna> no worries. *goes away to take a break*
[14:33] <OvenWerks> autumna: user D already bought a "Mac" because that is the logo they see on stage with any profesional.  :P
[14:33] <autumna> OvenWerks in USA and even parts of europe maybe
[14:34] <autumna> ... wait
[14:34] <autumna> sorry User D?
[14:35] <autumna> the musician?
[14:35] <OvenWerks> yes
[14:35] <autumna> o.O
[14:35] <OvenWerks> User D: Expert musician with no interest to computers and twiddling about with the Operating System, who just want to record and distribute their music. 
[14:35] <autumna> I didn't realize that music field was that overtaken with macs
[14:36] <autumna> I would expect there are more low budget freelance musicians who are looking for an alternative..
[14:36] <OvenWerks> This person finds the Mac is hard to use in any case because they expect it to have as many controls as a guitar only.
[14:36] <autumna> than say for designers who often work for corporate and end up with macs by default. (mostly because you need to collaborate with each other, and cool factor)
[14:37] <autumna> I had a mac once
[14:37] <autumna> briefly
[14:37] <OvenWerks> You are confusing User D with another who has some interest in computers.
[14:37] <autumna> well
[14:37] <autumna> I think I was thinking people who live outside high income countries
[14:37] <autumna> but then again, 
[14:37] <autumna> I don't know
[14:38] <OvenWerks> Also the Mac stads out because of the lighted apple on the back.
[14:38] <autumna> I wish there were more linux hardware out there (and no I don't mean servers!)
[14:38] <autumna> (Or rasberri pi)
[14:38] <autumna> Macs are VERY expensive
[14:39] <OvenWerks> That is why people buy them.
[14:39] <autumna> and that is why people don't buy them, it goes both ways you know :P
[14:40] <autumna> you can change the description of the user or remove it if you like. 
[14:41] <autumna> but I would say there are people who would switch over if convinced that linux is easier to use, and has better or equal features
[14:41] <autumna> :D
[14:43] <autumna> (I am more familiar with user C)
[14:44] <autumna> (for which one thing that keeps coming up often is, how do you move files back and forth) 
[14:48]  * OvenWerks personally knows both people who buy a Mac because they are more expensive (have more "status") and people who buy them because they are the easiest thing to use (they think)
[14:49] <OvenWerks> Having said all that, mostly in jest BTW, I think it is good to keep such a user in mind.
[14:49] <sakrecoer> no more lid apple in the back OvenWerks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZ8ek-6ccc
[14:50] <sakrecoer> OvenWerks: User D obviously wants to learn computer music, but is a lazy one.
[14:51] <sakrecoer> or, it is the user from mac, who refound it's sense of ethics in abox in the atic
[14:51] <OvenWerks> sakrecoer: yes
[14:56] <OvenWerks> All kidding aside, core audio is the best audio design out there right now.
[14:56] <sakrecoer> says who? :D
[14:57] <sakrecoer> put JACK in the hands of a superstar and see what happens to that status :D
[14:57] <OvenWerks> One of the things linux is missing right now are people who are interested in making the audio infra struture in Linux really work.
[14:58] <OvenWerks> Take Jack, add all the autodetect, sharing, etc. of pulse, add rtpmidi and linux could have a better audio system than core audio.
[14:59] <OvenWerks> There are a number of things that core audio has that are impossible in linux right now.
[14:59] <OvenWerks> solid over the net MIDI out of the box. for one.
[15:00] <OvenWerks> AVB audio transport out of the box.
[15:00] <autumna> (back from afk, OvenWerks I definitely do see your point, and am familiar with that type of user as well) 
[15:00] <OvenWerks> (that last is a HW implementation BTW... coice of eithernet chip)
[15:01] <OvenWerks> dealing with more than one application on the same device with different latencies.
[15:01] <OvenWerks> (and without loosing audio somewhere like pulse does)
[15:03] <autumna> *listens*
[15:03] <sakrecoer> i agree, at the same time there are many thigns that linux has that core audio hasn't...
[15:03] <sakrecoer> or maybe i missed something... but last i checked i couldn't route firefox or itunes into logic...
[15:04] <sakrecoer> i could eventualy use some software called "hijack" :D
[15:04] <sakrecoer> to, well, as they put it: "hijack" the signal...
[15:04] <OvenWerks> sakrecoer: yes but... the ootb experience in linux is not very nice.
[15:05] <sakrecoer> i agree, but if even we doubt our power, not only do we give power to our doubts, we stop being productive.
[15:05] <OvenWerks> pulse does a great job for desktop audio and comes close.
[15:05] <sakrecoer> i mean sure, there is a lot to do, but i'd rather focus on what we have while i try to gather the collectivity to improve it.
[15:06] <sakrecoer> anyways, i hope you misunderstand me right. i'm not interested in how mac is better, but i am for sure interested in what we shold improve
[15:07] <sakrecoer> when it comes to userD, what we need to do to that user is empower them and sucite curiosity.
[15:08] <autumna> sakrecoer you sort of can? (using pulseaudio through it probably doesn't count)
[15:08] <OvenWerks> yes. I think we could improve audio.
[15:08] <sakrecoer> more than that we simply cant atm
[15:08] <sakrecoer> autumna: on linux you can record firefox sure!
[15:08] <sakrecoer> or what are you refering to?
[15:08] <autumna> that... what you just said
[15:09] <sakrecoer> OvenWerks: we could also improve how we promote linux audio
[15:10] <sakrecoer> this is why i react to what you stated previously about core being the best atm... i mean, if the king developer of ubuntustudio thinks coreaudio is better, who is going to believe otherwise? :D
[15:12] <sakrecoer> tbh, the biggest lack i found when moving to linux audio was getting a grip of how things work, because it was different from what i had learned on mac. now that i've done the switch, sure i can miss some software synth. but that is realy not a linux audio issue, it's a copyright issue
[15:13] <autumna> sakrecoer:  http://download.blender.org/documentation/pdf/LXF204.feat_3d.5cjt.pdf this is about blender but is kind of relevant in our case too
[15:14] <autumna> the secret in some ways is having education. (both as tutorials, but also eventually having options classes etc that teaches this)
[15:14] <sakrecoer> i think so too, autumna :) 
[15:15] <autumna> I would also argue through that having professional work made in Ubuntu Studio (and featured) would help too. because what OvenWerks has said about people choosing more expensive item is true a lot, at least in graphics, seeing nice works done in a tool, brings more people in as user, because they want to do nice things too
[15:16] <autumna> that was terrible english.. but you know what I mean
[15:17] <autumna> :P
[15:18] <autumna> just to clarify. professional work is being done. it is just not obvious to people.
[15:18] <autumna> that it is out there
[15:21] <sakrecoer> yes, i agree, that is why i say core audio is "the best atm" purely because those who are considered the best are using that...
[15:22] <sakrecoer> it makes no sense copmaring, at best we just hurt FOSS community morale, at worst we lose a new user.
[15:23] <sakrecoer> but what we can do, is galantly steal what is good from the others. like OvenWerks said: better OTOB experience would be awsome...
[15:24] <sakrecoer> (that best/worst was supposed to be the other way arround btw)
[15:25] <autumna> I am not sure I agree with that definition of best. I would call that the "in" tool
[15:25] <autumna> best to me has always more to do with which one is more stable, has more features... and to a point has a sane workflow
[15:26] <autumna> but that's me ;D
[15:26] <autumna> (mind you I am not arguing as to which one is best between coreaudio and jack etc ) 
[15:27] <autumna> industry standard usually overlaps with best but not always
[15:31] <autumna> OTOB? 
[15:31] <autumna> (I guess I also don't see our situation as morale destroying. open source tools are in pretty amazing state, but then again maybe I am in serious minority ;D)
[15:34] <sakrecoer> yes, well, i don't see no point in saying "best". to me best is always equal to "in"
[15:34] <sakrecoer> at the end of the day, audio, even radio-audio has good portion of quality ideals, that is: very subjective.
[15:35] <sakrecoer> same goes with pictures. try to say what is "the best camera" :D at.. well.. best, you can say which one the most famous camera man is using.
[15:35] <sakrecoer> where's i think the "best" camera, is the one i have at hand.
[15:36] <sakrecoer> and, yeah, thing is i have a huge respect for OvenWerks knowledge, so i got a bit triggered, i appologize for that :D
[15:37] <OvenWerks> The problem with the "PC" is that it is made for windows. Linux takes that hw platform and makes it do things it was never designed for.
[15:37] <OvenWerks> Audio is one place where the HW is designed so badly it is harder to fix.
[15:38] <autumna> OvenWerks in one hand it is the point of a PC (do everything somewhat well with one device, rather than needing 50 specific tools) on other hand, I hear what you are saying
[15:38] <OvenWerks> Apple internal audio HW/ethernet and maybe video have been designed with an eye to make profesional audio/video possible.
[15:39] <sakrecoer> very true.
[15:39] <OvenWerks> The standard internal Audio in a PC is not bad on the output end... normally not usable on the input end :)
[15:40] <autumna> I wonder how gaming PCs fare in this category compared to regular ones
[15:40] <OvenWerks> Does not give real low latency in my experience. It is only almost there.
[15:41] <sakrecoer> in terms of gaming machine, i'm pretty blown away by my MSI mb audio... but then again, i have no means to measure and can only speak annecdotaly. bought gaming machine for blender production...
[15:41] <OvenWerks> gaming is audio output. gaming audio is what the PC audio is based on and the PC is adiquate for that.
[15:42] <OvenWerks> As I said, audio output is just fine. Once audio is in the machine, using internal audio for mixdown, internal synth additions to the mix, etc are fine.
[15:42] <autumna> (sakrecoer: I have similar feeling with my asus rog, but then again, I don't probably need the level of audio recording required to notice something is amiss)
[15:43] <autumna> OvenWerks, what about external soundcards?
[15:43] <OvenWerks> The biggest problem in my experience with helping people, is the use of more than one audio interface.
[15:44] <autumna> I see
[15:44] <OvenWerks> autumna: external AIs are generally quite good. USB is as always problematic.
[15:45] <autumna> OvenWerks: :D I see. 
[15:45] <autumna> what would be interesting
[15:45] <autumna> is to see a hardware that is for audio recording
[15:45] <autumna> that is done with linux
[15:45] <autumna> like audio production version of steambox
[15:45] <OvenWerks> However, if you look at most people getting into audio, they can tell that onboard audio input sounds less than good. So they get a USB mic or other audio AI for their mic/guitars or whatever.
[15:46] <autumna> *nods*
[15:46] <OvenWerks> These same people have all their "nice" audio HW attached to the internal audio already and so what they want to do is use the external AI for input and the internal for output.
[15:47] <OvenWerks> In general this is just bad :) but it still makes the most sense to people and so win/OSx make it possible and seamless.
[15:48] <OvenWerks> They do that by resampling everything but the internal audio without telling anyone.
[15:49] <OvenWerks> In the situation above this is not the best thing to do :) really, the input audio should be the master sync and the output should be what is resampled.
[15:50] <autumna> *listens*
[15:52] <OvenWerks> I have actually been playing with this... my startup script gives: http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/pulse-jack-3devices.png
[15:53] <OvenWerks> Normally, the PCH would be turned off in bios :)  but I turned it on to work with this.
[15:55] <OvenWerks> The script unloads the three modules from pulse that do autojack detection, autoalsa detection and alsa loading. Then it start jackdbus with the users "best" audio IF. Then it creates zita_a2j/j2a bridges for whatever other audio devices it can find and finally it creates pa-jack bridges for each device connected to jack.
[15:56] <OvenWerks> effectively, this uses pulse as jack's front end.
[15:58] <OvenWerks> The advantage of this over current OOTB Studio is that even though I have three audio IFs that are not in sync (the AudioPCI is quite bad actually), I can still use jackdbus in freewheel mode (for things like Ardour exports) with no xrun/crash as other users have experienced with the pulse-jack bridge.
[16:00] <OvenWerks> There is still one problem :) jack forces pulse to use the same latency as jack has. This is ok for most desktop audio uses, but there are a few where this totally fails like skype which runs at 30ms latency (about).
[16:00] <OvenWerks> The fix for this is to spend more time on development on the pulse/jack bridge.
[16:01] <OvenWerks> pa-jack is really a sample module, not finished or polished.
[16:02] <OvenWerks> pa-jack should use the same parts of pulse that the pulse alsa drivers use to give applications varying latency from the same device.
[16:03] <OvenWerks> That way jack could be running at 3 to 5 ms and skype could use 30ms on the same device at the same time.
[16:05] <OvenWerks> There are some problems with my script  :)  and so I don't feel it is the right thing to use it or something similar in a STudio release.
[16:06] <OvenWerks> 1) it only scans hw:*,0 of the devices. So output to HDMI would not be detected for example.
[16:07] <OvenWerks> 2) zita alsa jack bridging though much better than alsa_in/out still uses cpu all the time if you are using that device or not.
[16:08] <OvenWerks> 3) USB devices plugged in after boot are not detected.
[16:10] <OvenWerks> So, I started work on an audio patch applet similar to the "Connections" part of qjackctl.
[16:10] <OvenWerks> This applet:
[16:10] <OvenWerks> 1) shows all possible audio devices.
[16:11] <OvenWerks> 2) allows the user at any time to change the master device.
[16:11] <OvenWerks> 3) does not start any zita alsa bridge untill the user tries to connect it.
[16:12] <OvenWerks> 4) when the user selects an un connected device and tries to connect it to an application port, it first starts a zita bridge and then connects it.
[16:13] <OvenWerks> That is the end point any way... so far I have got to the select any device to be master part :)
[16:20]  * OvenWerks seems to have lost everyone :)
[16:22] <OvenWerks> In my opinion, jack itself should do all of these things in one program. pulse/jack/autodetect/show unconnected ports as part of its graph...
[16:23] <OvenWerks> Assuming the right hardware is installed in a PC, that combination could beat coreaudio.
[16:24] <OvenWerks> In my dreams, AVB/AES67 devices connected only by ethernet would show up as well.
[16:28] <OvenWerks> I forgot to add, the applet I am (slowly) working on would also allow the user to set a default prefered AI. If it was not there at boot, it would pick a backup (internal?) and if/when the prefered device was plugged in would switch jack master device to that device... all without stopping jack or pulse.
[16:33] <sakrecoer> sorry OvenWerks, i got attacked by dinner and was forced to surrender :) might be away for the night, but i'll read first thing when i get back! :) 
[16:35] <OvenWerks> no problem
[16:36]  * OvenWerks is finding his lack of experience with GUI toolkits is a blocker (QT, GTK, etc.).
[18:08]  * autumna gets back also from a not-expected dinner
[18:11] <autumna> OvenWerks: I have a setup somewhat similar to yours, after your recs (although I think my latency setup is mostly default.. )  skype works, it could be an interim solution. and re QT/GTK it shouldn't be too hard to learn them? from what I can see there are some gui based interface developing toolkits. 
[18:11] <autumna> so hopefully it is a question of tying the backend to the gui
[18:13] <autumna> ovenWerks: how is zita alsa jack bridging better than alsa_in/out? 
[18:18] <autumna> installation could possibly offer the option of setting up an audio default script in a certain way. (I want to use this PC only for audio, I want to use it for audio and everyday use, Skype etc) so that people can choose? 
[19:00] <OvenWerks> autumna: zita_ajbridge is both better quality resample as well as less CPU use.
[19:00] <autumna> oh ok
[20:36] <zequence> sakrecoer: autumna: I will only be doing videos for the time being. Just got done with my education and will have some time now, so will hopefully get something done within a week
[20:37] <zequence> Don't know how much of that I will be doing, but I do want to establish at least some basic styff
[20:38] <autumna> alright. :) when you say videos, do you mean the "feature overview" videos or tutorials? or both?
[20:39] <autumna> ("not sure yet" is also a valid answer :D) 
[20:42] <zequence> autumna: Tutorials, which will be a part of the documentation project
[20:42] <zequence> Almost forgot about the feature tour thing
[20:43] <zequence> I could provide some material for that, surely. But, someone else should edit and create the final video
[20:43] <autumna> zequence: no problem. :D just clarifying so that we don't end up in a deadlock of everybody waiting for each other. :D