[02:21] Does the latest version of Mate utilize Snap? [03:05] HexChat: 2.9.6 ** OS: Linux 4.4.0-24-lowlatency x86_64 ** Distro: Debian jessie/sid ** CPU: 8 x AMD FX(tm)-8350 Eight-Core Processor (AuthenticAMD) @ 1,40GHz ** RAM: Physical: 15,6GB, 75,7% free ** Disk: Total: 2,9TB, 19,1% free ** VGA: NVIDIA Corporation GF110 [GeForce GTX 580] ** Sound: HDA-Intel - HDA ATI SB1: USB-Audio - USB Device 0x46d:0x8252: HDA-Intel - HDA NVidia3: Audigy2 - SB Audigy 2 ZS [SB0350a] * [03:05] * Ethernet: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. CIe Gigabit Ethernet ** Uptime: 16h 19m 0s ** === stooj_ is now known as stooj [04:57] What's up people? === fifty-sevenC_ is now known as fifty-sevenC [06:34] is ubuntu mate arm heavy for raspberry pi 3 [06:34] my pi seems a bit slower then raspbian [06:34] especially on the mozilla firefox browser [06:35] Firefox on raspbian should be the same as firefox on mate... [06:35] On the other hand, mate probably needs more RAM, more disk access etc, so a faster SD card or external disk would be better [06:36] its class 10 16gb [06:36] And you think firefox is faster on raspbian vs mate? [06:37] no. I didn't really install firefox on raspbian [06:37] (09:34:46 πμ) phoenixi: especially on the mozilla firefox browser [06:37] * alkisg shrugs... [06:37] I just want to know if firefox is heavy on raspbian [06:37] You should be asking on #raspbian then, no? [06:37] if yes then maybe I should checkout other browsers [06:38] In general, rpi is 50 times slower than e.g. a core i3 [06:38] sorry, i meant mate* [06:38] No it's not heavy, but rpi3 has a very slow cpu, so all things run slower there [06:39] alkisg, ok :+1: [06:39] :) [06:39] Sorry, I didn't knew emojis don't work on irc :sweat_smile: :P [06:43] mate locks after some time of inactivity [06:44] after that time, will ssh work or not? [06:44] it will work [06:44] If you mean the screensaver, sure, it will work [06:44] If you mean that mate hangs, it's another question... [06:45] thanks ouroumov , alkisg [06:45] I mean the sceensaver alkisg [06:45] OK [06:49] Why are some versions of software on `apt` not the latest versions [06:50] for instance, the version of vagrant on apt is 1.4.x and on the official website it is 1.9.x [06:50] That is a huge difference ,isn't it? [06:51] Linux distributions freeze at the point of their release [06:51] And the software needs to be tested before it's released there [06:52] So they usually have the version of software that shipped up to 1 year before their release [06:52] !latest | phoenixi [06:52] phoenixi: Packages in Ubuntu may not be the latest. Ubuntu aims for stability, so "latest" may not be a good idea. Post-release updates are only considered if they are fixes for security vulnerabilities, high impact bug fixes, or unintrusive bug fixes with substantial benefit. See also !backports, !sru, and !ppa. [06:52] "Rolling" distributions have more up to date software, but they're more unstable as well. [06:53] hey [06:53] Hi [06:53] are you single [06:54] ...go chat elsewhere, this is a support channel [06:54] oh realy? SRRY MAN === apessoa is now known as Guest11140 [07:43] Hi. Why does some packages want to uninstall ubuntu-mate-desktop? [07:52] WattisLove: Which package specifically and what command? [07:53] libreoffice, vlc, firefox, many of them really. Happens both with "apt-get remove" and "apt-get purge" [07:53] alkisg ^ [07:54] A desktop environment consists/depends on some packages [07:54] Run this: apt show ubuntu-mate-desktop [07:54] See the "Depends" line [07:54] but not the other way around, right? I'm only changing a program version. Why do I have to remove the whole desktop environment as well? [07:55] Depends line is very large [07:55] If any of those packages is removed, then mate will be uninstalled too [07:55] If that line was "Recommends:" instead, then you would be able to uninstall any of them without issues [07:56] So I can't change versions/replace programs/uninstall unwanted programs at all? [07:56] alkisg, I'm pretty sure those are meta-packages [07:57] And that they are safe to remove (read it on the forum on several threads) [07:57] ouroumov, WattisLove, it depends [07:57] If one installs mate, which then installs firefox etc, [07:57] and then removes firefox, which then uninstalls the mate metapackage, [07:57] It wasn't like this in 14.04, I could uninstall programs right out of the box. BTW ouroumov you're brining back memories [07:57] all is fine up to that point, [07:57] *but* [07:58] if after that, someone does: apt purge --auto-remove, to automatically clean packages, [07:58] then all other packages in Depends will be uninstalled too [07:58] uh [07:58] And that will be a big, unexpected mess [07:58] that sounds scary as hell [07:58] So, what one can do, is mark all of them as manually installed [07:58] I.e. `apt install firefox vlc etc etc` [07:58] then autoremove won't remove them even if the metapackage is removed [07:59] If I apt-get install any of those packages I get "already newest version", does that count as marking them as menually installed? [08:00] In previous versions, apt install marked the package as manually installed, [08:00] I don't have time to check currently, if that's not the case anymore, some other command will be needed to mark them [08:00] ah, you're saying "apt install" not "apt-get install" alkisg ? [08:01] It's the same now in 16.04 [08:01] alkisg, isn't this some sort of bug? I don't think they planned it to be this way (either the ubuntu or the mate devs) or did they? [08:01] They did [08:01] E.g. suppose you have lubuntu and you want to try mate [08:02] You install the mate metapackage, then remove it, then autoremove packages, and you're left with what you had previously [08:02] If autoremove didn't work that way, you would have a hard time uninstalling desktop environments [08:02] What is debatable is "Depends" vs "Recommends" [08:02] But couldn't they make it different for those who downloaded the OS instead of instaling it on top of their current DE? [08:02] If mate recommented firefox, then you would be able to uninstall it without also losing the metapackage [08:03] No, it would be the same however the installed the DE [08:03] Isn't there some verified fix posted somewhere? I really need to downgrade libreoffice. What way should I take? [08:04] You don't need to uninstall it in order to downgrade it [08:04] You can just apt install libreoffice=specific-version [08:04] there are no other versions available [08:04] That won't remove the metapackage [08:04] How were you planning to install the previous version? [08:04] Won't you use some ppa or .deb package? [08:04] exactly like you said above [08:05] Then the apt line will still work without removing the metapackag [08:05] e [08:05] I.e. just don't run `apt remove` [08:05] Install whatever you like, maybe even apt pin it, but don't remove it [08:05] I checked for other available versions with showpkg or something like that but there were none, actually there are no older versions for any other packages [08:06] So the only option is to manually download the older version, uninstall the current one and install the other, but I didn't expect these complications [08:07] You can install a deb without removing the package first [08:07] It will downgrade the package without removing the metapackage [08:07] "uninstall the current one and install the other" ==> i.e. only do the "install the other" part [08:08] ok, that makes me really feel better. But what if I needed to replace libreoffice with openoffice? to avoid conflicts one has to be uninstalled. What would I do in that case? [08:09] You could mark all packages as manually installed, or not ever run autoremove, or file a bug report to mate so that they're recommented and not depended upon [08:10] let me see, so if I mark all those Depends pkgs as Manually installed, I would be able to remove any of them, is that correct? [08:10] Yes [08:11] ok, how do I quickly mark all of them as that? [08:11] previously it was apt-get install packages [08:11] I don't know if anything changed in 16.04, please google it, I don't have much time now, multitasking too much... :) [08:11] ok, thank you [08:13] You're welcome [08:13] I think I'm gonna file that bug report anyway cause this is really grave. I was seconds away from screwing up my system like never before and I'm quite sure other newbies have suffered the consequences already. Where do I go to file it? [08:15] !bug [08:15] If you find a bug in Ubuntu or any of its derivatives, please file a bug using the command « ubuntu-bug » - See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs for other ways to report bugs. [08:18] WattisLove: it's not a bug [08:19] a feature? [08:19] well, it's a design decision [08:19] there's no good reason to remove libreoffice [08:20] my reasons aren't good reasons? [08:20] there are subtle distinctions between what would happen if it was in "Depends" or "Recommends" clause [08:20] WattisLove: well, why do you want to remove it? [08:21] if I was to replace it with openoffice. Not only that, you should be able to remove software you don't use or replace it by your preferred programs [08:23] 'sudo apt remove libreoffice libreoffice-common' removes almost all of it bar for a few libs that other apps use (can't remember which ones they were though) [08:24] WattisLove: you'd be able to use dpkg rather than apt to remove the specific package [08:24] WattisLove: you may then need to create a dummy package to fix the dependency, which is a bit messy [08:24] WattisLove: or you could modify your OpenOffice package to satisfy the LibreOffice dependency [08:26] what I can't do, shockingly, is uninstall packages like it's always been done [08:27] https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html [08:27] Recommends This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency. The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together with this one in all but unusual installations. [08:27] I think that this matches quite well what libreoffice is for mate [08:27] I.e. IMHO, it should be recommented, not depended upon [08:28] agreed [08:28] Unfortunately there are some distros that don't respect that, or disable the installation of recommented packages by default (like mint), [08:28] and thus the developers sometimes resort to "Depends" to solve those other issues [08:28] alkisg: one of the Frequently Whined About Questions with Kicad is why doesn't it have any libraries [08:29] I.e. apt install mate-desktop on mint, wouldn't install any of the recommented packages, because mint decided to use 'no-install-recommends' in apt [08:30] So marking them as recommended to avoid the mess isn't possible in Ubuntu16-based Mint distros? [08:30] (so again IMHO, the mint distribution integration is really problematic) [08:30] Another bug report would be needed there, in mint, to respect the debian policy and apt defaults [08:31] I'm so glad I didn't download mint 17.3 (the latest one) [08:31] But mint uses custom scripts to generate the CDs anyway, so it would be easy to just install mate with --install-recommends on cd build time [08:34] there are good arguments for *not* installing recommends, too [08:34] there's good arguments either way [08:35] it's fine if you know what you're doing [08:35] debian policy, apt defaults, should be reflected in distros, and sysadmins/users should be able to override those that they're allowed to [08:35] WattisLove: anyway to go back to what you wanted to do [08:36] WattisLove: look at the Depends and Recommends for Libreoffice === rw is now known as Guest98605 [08:36] WattisLove: then use dpkg to remove them, instead of apt [08:36] WattisLove: you can pass something like "--no-depends" to it, can't remember the exact syntax [08:36] gordonjcp: running apt after using dpkg still has issues [08:36] E.g. upgrading mate-desktop will force libreoffice reinstallation [08:37] I've never had success with dpkg, not once. I'll try marking pkgs as manually installed. I'm reading about this command "apt-mark" now [08:37] Anyway, /me goes afk for a bit... [08:37] alkisg: yeah, you need to install a dummy package [08:38] I don't think there's any real downside to installing Libreoffice *and* OpenOffice [08:38] there's a problem with "soffice" [08:48] WattisLove: what kind of problem? [08:50] link issues I think. [08:50] https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=62509 [08:51] "When installing, both programs write the soffice core program link in /usr/bin/. This conflict prevents both programs from installation in Ubuntu. You will get an error trying to overwrite /usr/bin/soffice." [08:58] so you move /usr/bin/soffice [09:06] If it's marked with dpkg, moving it won't help, dpkg-divert will be needed [09:07] I just don't like the word "conflict" [09:11] alkisg: true [11:24] goodbye [12:41] hi im looking for help with awk, any1? [12:47] There's a dedicated #awk channel for that [12:50] thanks :) [13:22] Hello world :-) [13:24] I am new to Linux and the ubuntu mate distribution. I just installed it and im having fun exploring the ins and outs. Is it possible to install office 365 applications on a ubuntu device? [13:24] No idea, but I doubt it [13:26] ah ok, LibreOffice is the alternative? [13:26] yes [13:26] ok thanks [13:33] LibreOffice works fine, if Office is necessary try running in Wine. Alternatively I believe Office 365 will work in most web browsers now. [13:59] Hi, could somebody help me a little bit with my mate, I can only run it on live, and it-s freaking me on. [13:59] thanks [14:01] hi [14:01] wazzup,can you help me? [14:02] I gess not, I have the same issue badger [14:17] Hey alkisg you there? [14:17] Hi WattisLove [14:18] Hi. When you told me about metapackage problem earlier (or yesturday depending on where you are) you were talking about latest (16) version, right? [14:19] Yes, but also in general [14:19] cause I tried removing the ubuntu-mate-core and ubuntu-mate-desktop metapackage to see if autoremove would list all those Depend's, and I didn't see any [14:19] Does it happen to you if you remove those packages? [14:19] There's a possibility that `tasksel` was used to create the live cd, in which case the related packages were already marked as "manually installed" [14:20] This isn't the case if `apt install mate-desktop` is used instead [14:20] I haven't checked, I was speaking in general about metapackages [14:20] You can just check if the packages are marked as manually installed or not [14:20] If they're manually installed, they won't get autoremoved [14:26] $ apt-mark showauto $(apt-cache show ubuntu-mate-desktop | grep Depends: | tr -d ,) [14:26] WattisLove: this returns nothing on my 16.04, so they're marked as manually installed, by tasksel or something similar [14:27] $ apt-mark showauto $(apt-cache show linux-generic | grep Depends: | tr -d ,) [14:27] linux-headers-generic [14:27] linux-image-generic [14:27] alkisg, so this does not only depend on the Depend list but also on how they're marked out of the box? [14:28] On the other hand, removing for example the "linux-generic" metapackage, will later on auto-remove linux-headers-generic and linux-image-generic [14:28] WattisLove: yes, it is possible to mark any package as manually installed, either by using apt-mark yourself, or by using tasksel, or whatever else the live cd mechanism uses [14:30] quick question: where and how did you learn so much linux? if you're a programmer/sysadmin don't answer [14:31] Both :) [14:34] Just tell me something. The output from your last commands is from your computer and not mine. RIGHT? [14:34] Haha, yes [14:34] phew [14:34] When I tried the apt-mark showmanual the list was so long I was esceptical it was showing me the real ammoung of manual pkgs [14:35] *ammount [16:19] <__CoolGuy> Hi [16:23] <__CoolGuy> The Thunar Windows manager doesn't work properly. It closes, and with no reason; when I press ctl+v to paste files. [16:23] <__CoolGuy> Any suggestions other than using Caja? [17:33] Hello, how do I get rid of that damn "must restart to apply updates" nagging [17:41] Langley: by restarting, or disabling automated updates - it's saying you have to restart so you can boot into updated kernels which received patches [17:44] There should be an option to disable it. It keeps nagging every 5 minutes [18:00] Hello. I have an thinkpad 260 and my mouse pointer is jumping around sometimes if I leftclick , but it jumps back around where it was before i clicked. Does anyone know what I can do to fix it? [18:32] Hey guys [18:33] Quick question, I have "single" listed in the cmdline.txt which I thought was booting emergency.target, but my changes to emergency.service don't seem to be doing anything, anybody know what that flag does? === Nowayz_ is now known as Nowayz [18:42] I'm booting with "single" argument in the kernel arguments which I thought was using emergency.target and emergency.service, but changes to emergency.service don't seem to be changing anything. Anybody know what target is booting with single in kernel arguments?? [19:10] Help, after updating my system now takes a billion year at that Plymouth loading screen, then goes to emergency mode [19:14] can you get out of emergency mode [19:17] How? [19:45] Oh I think I know... must be additions I made to fstab [19:47] But why... [19:50] Is there any other way to auto mount hard drives? [19:53] Oh I got it, I guess writing about it helps. Thanks === apessoa is now known as Guest59840 [22:58] Hello everyone. I am currently on Xubuntu, wanting to jump over to mate the live cd seemed to be more of what I am looking for. Is there a way I can migrate over to Ubuntu Mate without causing to many isses or would installing from live usb be the better option [23:15] they are different OS s .. would think that the xubuntu filing system mounts from mate, I would make my xubuntu a small partition to (using gparted), squeeze it down [23:15] then install mate into the free space [23:15] so you still have your ubuntu running, & can access the files on it from mate [23:16] ok [23:16] left. [23:16] * nomic runs ubuntu/mate [23:16] xubuntu /mate [23:59] are their keyboard shortcuts to move windows like in win8/10?? [23:59] hi RadioNic1 [23:59] hi rvazquez