[01:17] <Mihasi> Alright, to continue the discussion from #ubuntu. mchelen2: like you said, this is completely anecdotal, but in general, whenever I look up something related to linux software, I find it easier/faster on the Arch wiki.
[01:18] <Mihasi> For example, tonight I'm trying to learn about GPUs and graphics drivers in Ubuntu.
[01:18] <Mihasi> And the last thing I was looking up is this "intel-microcode" driver that shows up in my Additional Drivers.
[01:20] <Mihasi> So I go to https://help.ubuntu.com/ and type in "microcode", and I see no official wiki pages but a bunch of links to AskUbuntu questions.
[01:22] <Mihasi> In this particular case, I was lucky enough that the second link has an answer that explains what microcode is, so I didn't have to spend too much time scrolling too unrelated questions or irrelevant answers.
[01:22] <Mihasi> On the other hand, when I search the Arch wiki for "microcode", I immediately get this page https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Microcode and in two lines I have my answer.
[01:23] <daftykins> yep they seem to have better docs than most distros, whether that applies to all distros though, is another story.
[01:24] <Mihasi> Sure
[01:25] <tgm4883> TBF, microcode isn't something that a regular user would need to bother themselves with
[01:25] <Mihasi> It was just one example...
[01:25] <tgm4883> but secondly (and more importantly in my opinion) is that you found it on the Arch wiki. Last I checked Arch uses the Linux kernel. It's not like you found it on a Microsoft wiki or an OSX blog
[01:27] <mchelen2> Mihasi: i mean i generally agree with this example, i just wouldn't try to generalize based on that
[01:27] <Mihasi> True, but the nice thing for Arch users is that apart from this background information that applies to Linux in general, they also get a up-to-date information on how to install this on their specific distro.
[01:28] <Mihasi> mchelen2, but this has been my general experience since I've started using Ubuntu.
[01:28] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I think that's where we have a difference of opinion. You keep making it sound like it's a bad thing that you found it on the Arch wiki
[01:28] <mchelen2> Mihasi: ok, but i cant really speak to your general experience
[01:30] <Mihasi> And I don't think I'm the only one with this experience. At least I've seen similar remarks mentioned multiple times.
[01:31] <daftykins> at least when i was last involved, there seemed to be a lot of folk that had to install that microcode update along with proprietary graphics drivers for them to work (can't remember if that was just a discrete nvidia or an nvidia optimus situation though)
[01:31] <mchelen2> Mihasi: thats still super generalized and nothing i can specifically agree or disagree with
[01:32] <daftykins> what was actually the point in bringing this up?
[01:32] <mchelen2> i can see value in discussing "how can we improve ubuntu documentation? what problems does it have that we can address?"
[01:33] <daftykins> yes, which leads to two questions to users really
[01:33] <daftykins> 1) do they know wikis are user editable?
[01:33] <Mihasi> There was someone in #ubuntu asking up-to-date info on how to install a (commercial) software package, and I made a remark about how I found it frustrating that the Ubuntu documentation often lacks centralized, up-to-date information (in my experience)
[01:33] <mchelen2> but a sort of generic "is wiki A better than wiki B? i heard a bunch of people say so" is not something i know how to act on
[01:33] <daftykins> 2) if they do, why aren't they helping others with what they learn?
[01:34] <mchelen2> daftykins: personally i find wikis to have a somewhat high barrier to entry, but they still may be the best option available
[01:34] <daftykins> yeah, bit of hassle to create an article
[01:35] <daftykins> it would probably be handy to know if folks don't know they can help others with it, though
[01:35] <mchelen2> i sort of like discussion based help systems like ask ubuntu
[01:35] <daftykins> i find those a nightmare because they come up in search results but they're often outdated or wrong
[01:36] <Mihasi> mchelen2, Well, all I was really saying is: I" find that wiki A is better than wiki B in general", but I agree that this is not something that can be acted on directly.
[01:36] <mchelen2> Mihasi: yeah i mean i appreciate your perspective, but i don't really know how to evaluate that objectively
[01:36] <Mihasi> And yes, same here. Always reminds me of this XKCD comic: https://xkcd.com/979/
[01:36] <daftykins> what made you come from arch to ubuntu?
[01:36]  * daftykins predicts the "what did you see!?" xkcd :D
[01:37] <mchelen2> daftykins: in this use case of finding info on microcode at least ask ubuntu has more info than the ubuntu wiki
[01:37] <daftykins> XD
[01:37] <Mihasi> mchelen2, that is definitely true. :D
[01:37] <daftykins> ah so you didn't use arch then move
[01:37] <Mihasi> I did use Arch for a couple of months.
[01:38] <daftykins> what made you switch?
[01:38] <Mihasi> I started on Fedora, eventually moved to Ubuntu, then Arch, then Windows again for a loooong time.
[01:38] <mchelen2> daftykins: it would be nice if the ask ubuntu search would prioritize highly rated answers better
[01:38] <tgm4883> Am I the one one that thinks it's possibly a bad idea to copy simple things from one wiki to another
[01:38] <Mihasi> And now timing constraints made me switch back to Ubuntu.
[01:38] <mchelen2> tgm4883: yeah i agree, it contradicts DIY
[01:38] <mchelen2> err DRY
[01:38] <mchelen2> lol
[01:38] <dax> "wikis are user editable" => did wiki.ubuntu.com ever stop being restricted after that spam nonsense
[01:39] <mchelen2> tgm4883: its better to link, although in a perfect world there would be transparent embed options
[01:39] <dax> i'd go look but the dang thing never loads right for me
[01:39] <daftykins> i think i had a lot of faffing to endure when i wanted to submit one of those macbook articles
[01:39] <daftykins> !mac
[01:40] <Mihasi> It used to be cool to do a CLI-based distro install, but now I prefer things to "just work", and Ubuntu is far better in that department than Arch.
[01:40] <daftykins> can you tell which one i wrote? :) look down the LTS column from the top and look at the first release that seems to stand out...
[01:40] <tgm4883> transparent embed options only matter for the people that think they need to brand everything
[01:41] <tgm4883> I used to be like that
[01:41] <daftykins> heh yeah masochism and ones OS should not go together
[01:42] <mchelen2> i'm not talking about branding, i'm talking about maintaining a consistent user experience
[01:43] <tgm4883> meh, the second you need to jump to the internet to find something, you aren't going to find a consistent user experience
[01:43] <mchelen2> :P
[01:44] <Mihasi> daftykins, MacBook6-1/Lucid?
[01:44] <Mihasi> and lol
[01:44] <tgm4883> it's unobtainable
[01:44] <daftykins> nope trusty on 3,1
[01:44] <daftykins> hardy is like, 8.04? lucid is 10.04 and trusty is 14.04
[01:44] <tgm4883> you find me an online resource that has a consistent user experience, and I'll find you a user that has an issue that resource doesn't have an answer for
[01:48] <daftykins> check out this curvy board :) http://i.imgur.com/R76mL5O.jpg the very chunky scythe mugen heatsink caused that over many years
[01:49] <Mihasi> tgm4883, but isn't that the point of transparent embedding? to prevent the user from having to jump to the internet to find something, but to instead see all of the information on one site?
[01:49] <Mihasi> (as opposed to providing links that *do* make them jump)
[01:50] <daftykins> i think all this pointless chatter would be better served writing a few articles
[01:50]  * daftykins coughs
[01:50] <Mihasi> At this point at night, all I'm good for is pointless chatter. :P
[01:50] <mchelen2> actual productivity is tiring
[01:50] <mchelen2> but dont let us stop you :D
[01:51] <tgm4883> Mihasi: by that definition, they would already be on the internet. Unless you are suggesting some app that exists on in a default ubuntu install. I know, we could give it some cool animal name. How about a Fox
[01:51] <Mihasi> Also, when I'm writing articles/my thesis all day, I don't have much motivation left to write more articles at night. :P
[01:54] <Mihasi> tgm4883, I'm not sure if I understand your point. What I imagine transparent embedding of wiki pages to be is: I look up "microcode" in the Ubuntu documentation, I get an Ubuntu wiki-page with the same text as on the Arch wiki, seemingly without having left the Ubuntu wiki. And maybe with some additional instructions on how to install it on Ubuntu underneath the embedded text.
[01:55] <daftykins> but enough to come on IRC and ramble :)
[01:55] <tgm4883> Mihasi: and what if the Arch wiki doesn't have any information on microcode?
[01:55] <daftykins> i don't mean to pick on you there, it's the same sentiment which is why most of the ubuntu docs are outdated or rubbish
[01:55] <tgm4883> daftykins: what else are we going to do while waiting for spaceships to dock?
[01:56] <Mihasi> So instead of jumping from the Ubuntu wiki to the Arch wiki, then back to the Ubuntu wiki, then to AskUbuntu for installation instructions. Instead of visiting 3 pages, I only have to visit 1.
[01:56] <Mihasi> tgm4883, then I guess there should be a transparent embedding of another wiki that does have information. :P
[01:56] <tgm4883> Mihasi: Literally the only thing that helps is in Ubuntu branding...
[01:56] <Mihasi> ...
[01:57] <daftykins> honestly i think your argument is a bad one
[01:57] <tgm4883> Mihasi: Ok, lets take a step back
[01:57] <Mihasi> You don't see how, for a user, it's a better experience to only have to click once and visit one page than visiting 3 separate pages?
[01:57] <mchelen2> tgm4883: i think new users might totally ignore archwiki content, unless it is curated to be applicable to ubuntu
[01:58] <tgm4883> Mihasi: what you want is to be able to go to the ubuntu wiki, search for something and be able to find information on it (all on the ubuntu wiki) right?
[01:58] <Mihasi> Yup
[01:58] <tgm4883> Mihasi: ok, so in order to do that, you're going to have to have this "transparent embedding" of enough different websites so it has information for any request, right?
[01:59] <mchelen2> "any" is an overly broad scope
[01:59] <mchelen2> lets settle for "more"
[02:00] <tgm4883> mchelen2: fine, switch any with 90%.
[02:00] <mchelen2> tgm4883: 90% of all problems?
[02:00] <tgm4883> Mihasi: mchelen2 so what I described is accurate to what you want?
[02:00] <mchelen2> let me rephrase
[02:00] <mchelen2> lets say ubuntu wiki covers 1000 issues
[02:00] <tgm4883> mchelen2: "more" is vague
[02:01] <tgm4883> 2 is more than 1
[02:01] <mchelen2> yes, that seems extremely specific to me
[02:01] <tgm4883> mchelen2: Mihasi: ok, so in order to do that, you're going to have to have this "transparent embedding" of enough different websites so it has information for most requests, right?
[02:01] <tgm4883> is that better?
[02:01] <Mihasi> Alright, for the same of argument let's say that the ultimate goal is to cover at least 90% of the issues or information that Ubuntu users want access to.
[02:02] <mchelen2> lets say ubuntu wiki covers 1000 issues. if you can transclude content for 200 more, that would be swell
[02:02] <mchelen2> tgm4883: i never used the word "most"
[02:02] <tgm4883> mchelen2: true, but you are super vague on what you actually want
[02:03] <mchelen2> tgm4883: i just gave an extremely specific example, with hypothetical numbers
[02:03] <tgm4883> mchelen2: so explain to me what you want. We can use Mihasi's example if you want
[02:03] <Mihasi> I think just had trouble with the wording "any request".
[02:03] <mchelen2> use the example i just stated
[02:03] <tgm4883> mchelen2: Mihasi ok, so using those examples. You want to be able to search all that from inside the ubuntu wiki, correct?
[02:04] <Mihasi> Alright, so the ultimate goal is to cover at least 20% of the issues. ^^
[02:04] <Mihasi> Yes
[02:04] <mchelen2> tgm4883: yes, the wiki would search 1200 pages, instead of 1000
[02:04] <tgm4883> Congratulations, you just invented Google Custom Search Engine
[02:04] <mchelen2> federated search is fine
[02:05] <tgm4883> it's basically one step narrower than google.com
[02:05] <Mihasi> You don't see any difference between a general search engine and a site specifically tailored towards Ubuntu?
[02:05] <tgm4883> Mihasi: you apparently don't know what google custom search engine is
[02:06] <Mihasi> Ah, I ignored the word custom.
[02:06] <Mihasi> Carry on.
[02:06] <Mihasi> :P
[02:06] <mchelen2> tgm4883: yeah the part that you are missing is we dont want to include all of the arch wiki, we want whitelisted articles or article sections which apply to ubuntu
[02:06] <tgm4883> mchelen2: ah ok, and who is going to currate that?
[02:06] <mchelen2> if you want to do that via CSE, thats fine
[02:06] <mchelen2> tgm4883: its part of the wiki....
[02:06] <Mihasi> tgm4883, the same people who curate the wiki now, no?
[02:06] <tgm4883> Mihasi: that won't work
[02:07] <mchelen2> tgm4883: so instead of writing an article covering the microcode stuff, basically link to the arch wiki page
[02:07] <mchelen2> which then gets included in search results
[02:08] <Mihasi> Exactly
[02:09] <tgm4883> mchelen2: Mihasi That won't work. As you both have pointed out already, the Ubuntu wiki is terrible. What makes you think the currators are going to go through the trouble of linking to content when they weren't even bothered enough to write a wiki page on what you were looking for now?
[02:09] <mchelen2> because linking content is easier than writing a page from scratch?
[02:10] <tgm4883> mchelen2: But linking a page isn't what you asked for
[02:10] <tgm4883> mchelen2: you asked that it be tranparently linked. So it has to look good inside the ubuntu wiki
[02:10] <mchelen2> tgm4883: thats what an embed is...
[02:10] <tgm4883> mchelen2: it would be much simpilier for them to just copy&paste the content
[02:11] <tgm4883> mchelen2: this is all ignoring the fact that nobody has done this already
[02:11] <mchelen2> the problem there is handling updates
[02:11] <mchelen2> tgm4883: mediawiki lets you transclude content from within a wiki. i'm talking about that feature across domains
[02:11] <mchelen2> but yeah we are speaking purely theoretically
[02:11] <tgm4883> mchelen2: why don't we just have one wiki?
[02:12] <mchelen2> sarcasm?
[02:12] <tgm4883> mchelen2: no
[02:12] <mchelen2> who is "we"?
[02:12] <tgm4883> mchelen2: you're talking about some ideal solution that you want everyone to follow. I'm proposing a different ideal solution that everyone should follow
[02:12] <mchelen2> the basic issue is that a single org has to have admin control
[02:12] <tgm4883> We just have one, wiki.linux.com
[02:12] <tgm4883> fedora/ubuntu/arch all put our stuff there
[02:13] <mchelen2> tgm4883: i never said it was ideal, its just one approach
[02:13] <mchelen2> tgm4883: ok swell, thats another approach
[02:15] <Mihasi> Yes, that would also be a solution.
[02:17] <Mihasi> Although in that case, user's would have to be Linux-minded instead of distro-minded. I wonder if for example Arch users would want to be bunched together with all other Linux users.
[02:17] <tgm4883> There's another problem with that solution (as is a problem with the former solution you proposed)
[02:18] <tgm4883> You're relying on other people to do all the work
[02:18] <daftykins> g'night folks
[02:19] <tgm4883> night daftykins
[02:23] <mchelen2> tgm4883: thats the same as right now
[02:23] <mchelen2> ofc someone has to write the article in the first place
[02:23] <Mihasi> Night night daftykins
[02:24] <mchelen2> the point is it should only have to be written once, and they be available in ways that are easy for users to find
[02:24] <Mihasi> Yes
[02:24] <tgm4883> mchelen2: no. Right now ubuntu is hosting the content. In your proposed solution, if the other wiki page goes away, the content is lost
[02:25] <Mihasi> tgm4883, How is that different from linking or from having it all on one big Linux-wiki (which can also go away)?
[02:26] <mchelen2> tgm4883: right now the ubuntu wiki is totally missing this content. so even if some of it was lost later, you would still have more than you started with
[02:26] <mchelen2> yeah also what Mihasi said
[02:26] <tgm4883> I'm glad we're all on the same page, that all of these solutions suck
[02:27] <mchelen2> everything sucks, all you can do is make things suck slightly less :D
[02:28] <tgm4883> mchelen2: I'm glad you said that. You can start here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ let me know which articles you've fixed
[02:30] <Mihasi> So now you're saying that the only good solution is to actually have a completely separate Ubuntu-specific wiki after all?
[02:30] <mchelen2> tgm4883: last time i checked, your job title didn't include directing user contributions
[02:30] <tgm4883> mchelen2: and yours is complaining on IRC then :P
[02:31] <Mihasi> How is it complaining? We started from the question "how could we improve the Ubuntu documentation"
[02:31] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I'm saying that I haven't seen a solution posted that is objectively better
[02:31] <mchelen2> tgm4883: i'm pretty sure that's what irc was invented for. but i appreciate that you consider discussions of alternative approaches to be complaining :D
[02:32] <tgm4883> mchelen2: look, you can take shots at me all you want. I'm the only one that bothered to have this discussion with you...
[02:32] <Mihasi> Oh, so now I don't exist anymore? O.o
[02:33] <tgm4883> Mihasi: come off it, that's not what I meant at all
[02:33] <mchelen2> tgm4883: if all your input consists of pointing out that no proposed solutions are perfect, i'm honestly struggling to find the value of it
[02:34] <tgm4883> mchelen2: I'm well aware that we don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. I just find your approach lacks being good
[02:34] <tgm4883> wait no
[02:34] <mchelen2> thats not really a specific enough claim to be evaluated
[02:35] <tgm4883> mchelen2: your approach is good, I just don't see the need for it
[02:35] <mchelen2> ok i mean, fair enough, thats a subjective perspective you are entitled to have
[02:35] <tgm4883> mchelen2: well TBF, you have dismissed all of my objections to it
[02:36] <mchelen2> i feel that i have specifically addressed each one
[02:36] <mchelen2> at which point you added another and another to the laundry list
[02:37] <tgm4883> mchelen2: really? I said who is going to currate this and you haven't addressed that at all. You're response was "the same people who currate it now" which is laughable considering how bad you think the current situation is
[02:38] <mchelen2> tgm4883: you realize that objection is a separate one from your position that you "don't see the need"
[02:39] <tgm4883> yes...
[02:39] <tgm4883> apparently I'm limited to one objection of this idea
[02:39] <Mihasi> To add to that, I don't see how that response was laughable, considering that the current situation might be bad because the current curators don't have enough time to work on it.
[02:40] <Mihasi> And since embedding would be faster than writing new content, it might be a better solution.
[02:41] <mchelen2> i don't really want to go through a list of 10 different concerns you have. pick one
[02:41] <mchelen2> Mihasi: yeah thats basically the argument i made about why such an approach would reduce burden on curators
[02:42] <justsomeguy> It would be nice if there was a page that aggregated pages about the same topic from different linux wikis and displayed them all on screen at once.
[02:42] <tgm4883> justsomeguy: just need someone to work on it....
[02:43] <Mihasi> That actually sounds like an interesting project. *-)
[02:43] <justsomeguy> tgm4883: I wish I knew enough web development stuff to implement it.
[02:43] <tgm4883> justsomeguy: well that's a common problem
[02:44] <tgm4883> "Hey guys, I've got this great idea. Why don't you build it"
[02:44] <Mihasi> So people who don't have the time or skills to contribute should not share their ideas or join in discussions?
[02:45]  * tgm4883 rolls eyes
[02:45] <justsomeguy> I don't think that what tgm4883 was saying.
[02:45] <tgm4883> Mihasi: you can spin what I said however it makes you feel better
[02:45] <mchelen2> yeah i agree ideas are cheap, implementations are expensive
[02:45] <tgm4883> Mihasi: but I've first hand experience being on the wrong side of these types of discussions
[02:46] <justsomeguy> Also, not my idea, I was just summarizing someone elses point from earlier on in this chat.
[02:46] <mchelen2> but at the same time i dont think its productive to discourage theorizing
[02:46] <tgm4883> Be the change you want to see in the world
[02:47] <justsomeguy> That's the plan. I just have to learn a bunch 'o stuff first. ...damned JavaScript.
[02:47] <Mihasi> tgm4883, I don't necessarily feel better or worse, but this is you've repeated "then why don't you do it?" a number of times in the course of the discussion and I don't feel that contributes.
[02:48] <tgm4883> Mihasi: you've got to look at the other side of the argument though
[02:48] <mchelen2> i didn't have a problem with tgm4883's last comment, it was the 200 before that which bothered me
[02:48] <mchelen2> :D
[02:49] <Mihasi> Although I do agree that it is important to be realistic about what *can* be done, that doesn't mean we can't talk about what *should* be done.
[02:49] <tgm4883> mchelen2: and you are entitled to be bothered by it :)
[02:49] <mchelen2> its the difference between "i have an idea" "great! go build it" and "i have an idea" "that will never work, its pointless"
[02:49] <mchelen2> the former is totally fine
[02:50] <tgm4883> mchelen2: actually it's more "I have an idea" "That doesn't seem worth the effort over our current solution"
[02:51] <mchelen2> tgm4883: right, and i dont see the point of discouraging ppl, if they are not asking you to do it
[02:52] <mchelen2> you could just as easily say "that would be a nice feature, but its a lot of work, if you want to do it that would be great"
[02:52] <mchelen2> it costs you nothing
[02:53] <Mihasi> Yes, or "good idea, we'll take it up with the devs/contributors and see if anyone has the time to work on it"
[02:53] <mchelen2> Mihasi: well in that case you are taking on extra work
[02:54] <tgm4883> You're still asking someone do it
[02:54] <tgm4883> err, someone else
[02:54] <mchelen2> yeah in my example, nobody is being asked to do anything
[02:54] <Mihasi> True, but what is so bad about asking?
[02:55] <Mihasi> (As long as you're not forcing anyone to do it.)
[02:56] <mchelen2> asking is a form of pressure
[02:56] <mchelen2> in any case we can debate that issue, but it wasn't the example i was trying to use
[02:56] <mchelen2> in this whole convo i have literally never asked anyone to do anything
[02:56] <tgm4883> mchelen2: that is true
[02:58] <mchelen2> thats why i mean by saying, encouragement costs nothing
[02:59] <Mihasi> But asking is wrong because it is a form of pressure?
[02:59] <mchelen2> Mihasi: i mean it depends on the circumstances, but i think we can imagine cases where asking for things is not appropriate, even if nobody is forced to do anything
[03:00] <mchelen2> Mihasi: you wouldn't go to a car dealer and ask them for a free car, it would be rude
[03:00] <tgm4883> I think if you're going to ask someone to do something, you should have some "skin in the game"
[03:00] <Mihasi> Of course, but I don't think asking developers to implement some idea that you might not have the skill to implement yourself.
[03:01] <tgm4883> Mihasi: honestly, I think that's a cop out
[03:01] <mchelen2> Mihasi: consider that it takes time to evaluate a request. if a dev has to read through 10,000 requests, they can't get anything else done
[03:02] <mchelen2> Mihasi: we might imagine a situation where those requests are filtered, reviewed, and recommended by other users, then maybe the top 10 get passed along
[03:03] <Mihasi> If you put yourself forward as a voluntary software developer for Ubuntu (for example), doesn't that imply that you're willing to work on features that Ubuntu users would want?
[03:03] <mchelen2> ofc in the open source world, how we define "the devs" is a little unclear
[03:03] <tgm4883> Mihasi: no, not at all
[03:03] <Mihasi> And sure, that would be a good way of doing it.
[03:03] <Mihasi> I'm not saying every idea or request that ever pops up in IRC should go to the devs directly.
[03:04] <mchelen2> Mihasi: not necessarily, maybe you are only working on a feature you want. if other ppl benefit too, thats great
[03:04] <mchelen2> its a little weird to talk about "the devs" as a specific group of ppl
[03:04] <tgm4883> Mihasi: someone that puts themselves as a voluntary software developer for Ubuntu (for example), implies that they are willing to work on features that one Ubuntu uses wants
[03:05] <Mihasi> Hmm, okay. I hadn't considered that some people might only want to work on one specific feature that's primarily interesting for them.
[03:05] <mchelen2> i've contributed to specific bugs that affected me in ubuntu distros. once the bug is fixed, i'm done. it doesn't necessarily mean i'm interested in creating new features
[03:06] <Mihasi> That makes sense.
[03:06] <mchelen2> that doesn't apply to all devs, just trying to convey that ppl contribute for a variety of reasons, in a bunch of different ways
[03:06] <Mihasi> Yeah, I hadn't considered that.
[03:07] <Mihasi> My own view on volunteering is different.
[03:09] <Mihasi> (I'm a volunteer for the Red Cross, and in my mind I was comparing turning down ideas for features to turning away patients because "I only signed up to do CPR, I'm not interested in treating open wounds, go do it yourself".)
[03:10] <Mihasi> Didn't consider that fact that this is a completely different situation. :P
[03:10] <mchelen2> ah lol
[03:11] <Mihasi> Needless to say, I haven't contributed to big software projects yet. :P
[03:11] <mchelen2> imagine if you signed up to be a red cross volunteer in chicago
[03:11] <mchelen2> and they said you were being transferred to syria
[03:12] <mchelen2> you might be like, "i didn't sign up for this!"
[03:12] <Mihasi> Ah, but isn't that different?
[03:12] <mchelen2> nope, its 100% the same :D
[03:12] <Mihasi> I don't think so, because here I have no choice.
[03:13] <tgm4883> which one don't you have a choice in?
[03:13] <Mihasi> If they were to ask me if I would be willing to go help out in Syria, I could say no.
[03:13] <Mihasi> I wouldn't be upset that they'd ask me though, because that's part of what the organization I joined does.
[03:13] <mchelen2> i see what you are saying, but imagine if they asked you every 15 minutes
[03:13] <Mihasi> Yeah, I can imagine that's different. ^^
[03:13] <tgm4883> Mihasi: would you go to Syria to help the red cross?
[03:14] <tgm4883> Mihasi: would you go to Iran to help the red cross?
[03:14] <tgm4883> Mihasi: would you go to Russia to help the red cross?
[03:14] <tgm4883> Mihasi: would you go to Canada to help the red cross?
[03:14] <Mihasi> lol
[03:14] <tgm4883> Mihasi: would you go to Ohio to help the red cross?
[03:14] <tgm4883> Mihasi: would you go to Columbia to help the red cross?
[03:14] <tgm4883> Mihasi: would you go to Mars to help the red cross?
[03:14] <mchelen2> oh god
[03:14] <mchelen2> yes to mars
[03:14] <Mihasi> See!
[03:15] <tgm4883> Do you have V/\_ Blood?
[03:15] <mchelen2> also acceptable: french riviera
[03:15] <tgm4883> because that is what they need on Mars
[03:15] <Mihasi> It might be annoying to get so many requests, but eventually one gets through that is super-interesting! :P
[03:15] <mchelen2> no, but i can get some
[03:16] <mchelen2> Mihasi: yeah i think the issue is really about bandwidth, how to triage feature requests and find the best bang for buck
[03:16] <Mihasi> Absolutely
[03:17] <Mihasi> But that's like you suggested: a first triage could be done by other people who have no programming skills, so only the most important or innovative ideas reach the devs.
[03:17] <tgm4883> It's a lot more appealing to hear "Hey I have this sweet idea, but I don't know how to do X. Could you help me accomplish this" rather than "Hey I have this sweet idea, can you do it for me?"
[03:17] <Mihasi> Kind if like we do the small stuff at the RC so the real doctors and nurses have more time for the serious cases.
[03:18] <Mihasi> Sure, can't argue with that.
[03:18] <tgm4883> Mihasi: do you ever learn anything from the doctors or nurses?
[03:18] <Mihasi> Yes, but not enough to do their job.
[03:18] <tgm4883> Mihasi: do you ever learn from other resources that would help you with the RC?
[03:19] <tgm4883> Mihasi: ok, not enough to do there job. That is fine. But could you assist them?
[03:19] <tgm4883> Mihasi: if they were like "take this guys blood pressure", could you do it?
[03:19] <Mihasi> Sure
[03:20] <tgm4883> Mihasi: So why is it so different then to learn something related to the task at hand with ubuntu?
[03:20] <Mihasi> It depends on what your goal is.
[03:20] <mchelen2> i don't think Mihasi said it was different
[03:21] <mchelen2> maybe i missed something
[03:22] <Mihasi> I wanted to get into the RC because I'm interested in health care, so I wanted to learn how to be healthy and how to help other people to be healthy.
[03:22] <Mihasi> But the people/patients I treat only want to become healthy themselves, they are not interested in learning about health care or in providing it for others.
[03:23] <Mihasi> I don't think every Ubuntu user that has an idea on how to improve Ubuntu wants -or should want- to also be a developer.
[03:24] <mchelen2> yeah i think thats fair
[03:25] <tgm4883> nobody said they needed to be
[03:25] <mchelen2> yeah i just took it as a general point
[03:26] <mchelen2> oh or that there should be a way for ppl to make feature requests
[03:26] <mchelen2> even when they cant do it themselves
[03:26] <Mihasi> In that case I misunderstood. I thought your argument was that it would be best if the people who suggest new features should want to implement them themselves, or should be willing to learn how to implement them.
[03:27] <tgm4883> Mihasi: no, my point was that they should contribute in some way (more than the idea itself)
[03:27] <Mihasi> Maybe they do.
[03:27] <tgm4883> Mihasi: they most likely don't, or contribute very little
[03:28] <Mihasi> Maybe they're using Ubuntu to find a cure for cancer, but they have an issue with some piece of Ubuntu software?
[03:29] <tgm4883> irrelevant
[03:29] <mchelen2> i don't think people necessarily need to contribute more to have their suggestion be valid
[03:29] <mchelen2> but their suggestion may not carry a huge amount of weight
[03:30] <mchelen2> so if 1 user makes a suggestion, it may not get much consideration, unless 10k ppl have that same suggestion
[03:30] <tgm4883> mchelen2: that was my point. Not that it's not valid, just that as a developer, I'm less inclined to want to work on your suggestion unless it sounds particularily appealing
[03:30] <Mihasi> Oh, that's completely fine.
[03:30] <Mihasi> But you're point a few minutes ago was "that they should contribute in some way (more than the idea itself)"
[03:30] <mchelen2> tgm4883: yeah and i think volunteer devs totally have discretion over their time & attention
[03:31] <Mihasi> That's what I was arguing against.
[03:31] <mchelen2> it depends if "should" means that ideally they would contribute more, or that they must contribute more for their suggestions to be valid
[03:31] <Mihasi> But of course volunteer devs should be completely free to work on what they find interesting.
[03:32] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I'm not sure where the hang up is, yes, I think if you have an idea you should contribute in some way. If you don't contribute in some way, that doens't make your idea invalid, it just makes it less appealing
[03:32] <Mihasi> In my opinion it doesn't... To go back to my extreme example: if they're working on a cure for cancer, I don't think it would be ideal for them to learn to program and contribute.
[03:33] <Mihasi> Yup, than it's clear where the hang up is: I was interpreting it as you saying those ideas are not valid/should not be considered.
[03:33] <tgm4883> Mihasi: a few things, 1) bringing up working on cancer is pointless and irrelevant to the argument unless the developer happens to have cancer. 2) one does not have to learn how to program to contribute
[03:33] <Mihasi> If you're only saying that they're less appealing, I'm not going to argue with that.
[03:34] <Mihasi> Haha, looks like we're going to have another hang-up then.
[03:34] <tgm4883> Mihasi: on which part
[03:34] <Mihasi> Mainly that my example is irrelevant and pointless. :P
[03:36] <tgm4883> Mihasi: you're trying to persuade me by tugging at my heart strings. It's childish
[03:36] <Mihasi> If you would be saying that a suggestion is less valid if the user does not contribute directly to Ubuntu in some way, my counter-argument would be that they might be working on something else that is equally (or even more) important.
[03:37] <Mihasi> No I'm not. I'm giving merely giving an example of something I think would contribute to humanity.
[03:40] <tgm4883> Mihasi: ok, so what about this example. A developer gets three completely different suggestions and can only work on one. The first is from someone working on cancer research, the second is from a business owner willing to pay the developer $50,000, the third is from the developers wife. Which suggestion should the developer choose to implement
[03:40] <Mihasi> So I do not see how that would be irrelevant. But on the other hand, as you're apparently talking about what is more appealing to you as a dev, and not about what is more valid, we don't disagree on that.
[03:40] <Mihasi> Depends. Does the developer have enough money to support himself and his family?
[03:41] <tgm4883> Sure
[03:41] <Mihasi> Then for me the 50k option is out.
[03:42] <Mihasi> The second choice is a bit more difficult.
[03:42] <tgm4883> This actually has a pretty easy answer, although it's a bit of a trick question
[03:42] <Mihasi> Does the suggestion of the cancer researcher something that would make him more effective at his work?
[03:43] <Mihasi> I assume the answer is: he should work on the one he finds most interesting.
[03:44] <tgm4883> No, he should work on whatever his wife want's him to :P
[03:44] <tgm4883> happy wife happy life
[03:44] <Mihasi> Ah, so it's a joke. :P
[03:44] <tgm4883> Mihasi: it's a joke, but it's completely valid and here's why.
[03:45] <tgm4883> Mihasi: Lets say it was just the first two options, and the developer makes the average wage for his area for a developer of his expertise. which should he choose?
[03:47] <Mihasi> Same question as before: is the suggestion made by the cancer researcher something that would improve his efficiency?
[03:47] <tgm4883> Mihasi: Sure
[03:47] <tgm4883> but remember
[03:48] <tgm4883> This time, it's your average developer spending his free time working on some project
[03:48] <Mihasi> Heh, this is intersting.
[03:49] <tgm4883> (that would be the answer )
[03:49] <Mihasi> I would make that choice in a heartbeat myself, but I'm still thinking of whether it should apply generally.
[03:50] <tgm4883> The answer would be he should work on whatever he wants to (which is what you said)
[03:50] <Mihasi> Yeah, that was what I thought the official answer would be.
[03:51] <Mihasi> Not my personal opinion.
[03:51] <tgm4883> you'd pick cancer research?
[03:51] <Mihasi> According to my -currently utilitarian- way of thinking, the developer should work on those things that make the most people more happy (or less unhappy).
[03:52] <Mihasi> So yes, cancer research.
[03:52] <tgm4883> What if it's just a low risk low probability cancer and the business man is working to feed the homeless?
[03:53] <Mihasi> Then it becomes an even more interesting problem. :D
[03:53] <tgm4883> Mihasi: it really doesn't. The developer should work on whatever he wants
[03:54] <Mihasi> Weeeeeell, let's agree to disagree.
[03:55] <mchelen2> i can understand prioritizing bugs
[03:55] <tgm4883> Mihasi: why should he be forced to work on the one for the cancer reasearcher just because it affects more people
[03:55] <mchelen2> bugs or features
[03:56] <mchelen2> but that is part of overall development process, usually not determined by 1 user
[03:56] <Mihasi> Because -in my opinion- the world would be a better place if people valued other people's happiness the same as their own.
[03:56] <mchelen2> thats a very idealistic view of the world that i dont think matches reality unfortunately
[03:57] <Mihasi> It doesn't. But it's something worth striving for. (Again, in my opinion.)
[03:57] <tgm4883> Mihasi: let me rephrase, why should the cancer researcher get free work done for him just because he's working on cancer research
[03:57] <mchelen2> Mihasi: yeah but even if we work toward that goal, we have to be aware of the current situation
[03:58] <Mihasi> mchelen2, yes, but we're talking about "which option *should* the developer choose in this fictional situation".
[03:59] <mchelen2> from a personal perspective, if i'm trying to decide between fixing bug A and bug B, and A will affect 2 people and B affects 500 people (even indirectly) i will prioritize B
[03:59] <tgm4883> this fictional situation never existed in an ideal world, nor a vacuum
[03:59] <mchelen2> the problem is logistically, how do you determine if that is true?
[03:59] <Mihasi> tgm4883, because he's working on something that could help a lot of people suffer less. (Again, provided that the feature request is something that would make him more effective in that goal.)
[03:59]  * nacc_ tries to read scrollback, checks the clock, gives up
[04:00] <Mihasi> lol
[04:00] <mchelen2> Mihasi: like how does the dev know if this cancer researcher has any chance of success
[04:00] <Mihasi> Aha, that's another very interesting question.
[04:00] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I'm starting to think you'd be all about a "cancer researcher" card that they could just go to places and get free stuff. Walk into a restaurant and hand them  the card, free food. Walk into a massage parlor, get a free massage
[04:00] <mchelen2> Mihasi: or maybe they are a terrible, incompetent researcher who will still fail even if their feature request is completed
[04:01] <mchelen2> i can agree if you can theoretically quantify all these things, but that is just so far removed from real world constraints
[04:01] <tgm4883> The original point I was trying to make was why you shouldn't simply shout "cancer research" to try to persuade people.
[04:01] <mchelen2> nacc_: im just running on fumes at this point :D
[04:03] <Mihasi> tgm4883, I wonder what the world would look like if people who have could solve cancer wouldn't have to worry about housing, food etc.
[04:03] <mchelen2> yeah so imho the issue is not whether to prioritize things that help people, but how do you know what will actually help people?
[04:04] <Mihasi> mchelen2, sure, but that's a different issue and I'm too tired to deal with two issues at once. :P
[04:04] <mchelen2> tgm4883: or if the people who develop software wouldn't have to worry about housing, food, etc :D
[04:04] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I wonder what the world would look like if drug companies could only charge a max of $2 per pill
[04:04] <tgm4883> Mihasi: Honestly, I think I've given up on anything you say being grounded in reality
[04:05] <Mihasi> Probably a lot better, provided that that would cover their working costs.
[04:06] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I wonder how all that research would get paid for
[04:06] <mchelen2> Mihasi: the point i'm trying to get at is it's not really fair to ask devs to take the burden off someone else, when devs also have those real world food/housing/etc pressures
[04:07] <mchelen2> tgm4883: imho there are lots of ways economic funding can be directed differently, but thats probably a broader discussion
[04:07] <Mihasi> tgm4883, I'm not sure how to respond to that. On my part, I feel like you're too grounded and are too quick to dismiss any idea that does not conform to the current state of affairs.
[04:08] <Mihasi> I'm sure the truth, the most skillful view, is somewhere in between our viewpoints, which is exactly why I am discussing. :P
[04:08] <tgm4883> Mihasi: then we'll have to agree to disagree
[04:10] <Mihasi> Yes, that is one option. I would prefer if we could meet somewhere in the middle, but I realize that that's not always possible.
[04:10] <Mihasi> At least not for today. :P
[04:10] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I don't think that's going to happen. I don't want to live under your dictatorship
[04:12] <Mihasi> It's unfortunate that you're so inclined to use dismissive language.
[04:12] <Mihasi> I'm just playing around with ideas, no need to take it too seriously.
[04:12] <tgm4883> I'm not sure how that's dismissive
[04:13] <Mihasi> I feel like you're quick to use words like "irrelevant", "pointless", "dictatorship" when describing other people's views or arguments.
[04:14] <tgm4883> Mihasi: So we're doing the same thing then?
[04:14] <Mihasi> What exactly?
[04:15] <tgm4883> Well I'm apparently being dismissive by using words as you described. Your trying to show moral superiority by throwing around cancer research
[04:17] <Mihasi> I'm trying to show moral superiority?
[04:17] <Mihasi> And that is the same thing as being dismissive?
[04:18] <tgm4883> Mihasi: oh you're not?
[04:18] <tgm4883> I could have sworn that earlier my points were invalid because of cancer research
[04:19] <Mihasi> Interesting. I can't remember saying or even implying that you're points were invalid.
[04:20] <Mihasi> In fact, I just answered your question as to "what do you think developers should work if they can choose between these options"?
[04:20] <tgm4883> Yes, I remember that
[04:20] <tgm4883> cancer research was always your option
[04:20] <Mihasi> *your
[04:21] <Mihasi> Not necessarily, it depended on the rest of the scenario.
[04:21] <Mihasi> At least until the very end.
[04:21] <tgm4883> Mihasi: in any case, let me rephrase one of my earlier statements for you
[04:21] <tgm4883> Mihasi: I don't want to live in your world. I prefer to have options as to what I get to do with my time
[04:22] <Mihasi> I was still thinking about the scenario in which the business owner has a business that feeds homeless people, but then we got side-tracked.
[04:22] <tgm4883> it's ok, I understand how your prioritize stuff now
[04:23] <Mihasi> And that's perfectly fine.
[04:25] <Mihasi> I wouldn't want to take away your options. I just believe that it would be better if more people would prefer a higher ideal to their own individual interests, especially since in my environment there are too many people that think only of themselves and their interests.
[04:25] <Mihasi> But it is entirely possible that if I would have it my way, everyone would constantly be thinking about ideals and nothing would ever get done. ^^
[04:26] <tgm4883> well that isn't what you were implying earlier
[04:26] <Mihasi> It isn't?
[04:26] <tgm4883> The developer should always choose the one that helps the most people
[04:26] <tgm4883> always
[04:26] <Mihasi> Hmm
[04:27] <Mihasi> Yeah, in hindsight I can see how that might come across. I should have avoided absolutes.
[04:28] <tgm4883> yea, I don't want to live in that world
[04:29] <tgm4883> and as you learned from the examples, there is always another equally heart string pulling cause to contribute your time to
[04:29] <Mihasi> I wish you would've brought that up earlier, then we might not have had the same discussion.
[04:29] <tgm4883> I've got all the time in the world
[04:29] <tgm4883> well not really, I have to go work on some stuff for some cancer research ;P
[04:30] <Mihasi> lol
[04:30] <tgm4883> and by that, i mean when I finish cooking this very large bacon burger, I"m going to go watch TV
[04:30] <OerHeks> researcherslivesmatter \o/
[04:30] <Mihasi> Awesome. I'm gonna try and get some sleep and try to finish my PhD thesis (not cancer research tough :P)
[04:31] <Mihasi> See you later!
[04:31] <OerHeks> :-)
[04:32] <tgm4883> I like how we pretend we're going to do other things, but in reality we just saw OerHeks show up and now we want to leave :)
[04:32] <Mihasi> Shhhhh
[04:32] <tgm4883> oh noes, I've let the cat out of the bag
[04:32] <Mihasi> Not while he can here you!
[04:32] <Mihasi> Or she.
[04:33] <Mihasi> OerHeks, is your nick Dutch?
[04:33] <OerHeks> go watch your screen tgm4883, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6885560/2016flower-update.JPG
[04:33] <OerHeks> jups Mihasi
[04:34] <Mihasi> Then it's a she I guess. :P
[04:37] <Mihasi> Ugh, I really need to stop procrastinating. Later!
[13:50] <BluesKaj_> Hiyas all
[19:06] <mchelen2> OerHeks: those look great! are they gerber daisies?
[20:01] <OerHeks> mchelen2, we call them straw flowers, they look like gerbers a little, sure
[21:45] <Bashing-om> Gonna go prune the lawn, be back - later - .
[22:29] <mchelen2> OerHeks: huh cool
[22:32] <OerHeks> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6885560/2016-flower-update.JPG
[22:34] <OerHeks> When they are grown full, hanging the flowers in boiling water for a few seconds,  and drying them upside down, give dried flowers full of colour that can least 2 years or more
[22:40] <OerHeks> got the seeds for € 0.50 last year, though they should be planted in full ground, they sure drink a lot
[22:50] <mchelen2> ah yeah, its a lot of plants
[22:50] <mchelen2> i've been looking at some of the self-watering pots, that basically have a resevoir at the bottom
[23:14]  * tgm4883 should really learn more about compiling
[23:14] <daftykins> if it comes up, they're doing it wrong :)
[23:15] <tgm4883> who's doing it wrong?
[23:16] <daftykins> if someone asks about compiling in #ubuntu :D
[23:16] <daftykins> just teasing, really
[23:16] <tgm4883> oh they aren't
[23:16] <tgm4883> I'm trying to make a snap package
[23:16] <tgm4883> I think I've figured out what's wrong, but not sure how to fix it in snapcraft
[23:17] <tgm4883> and #snappy is a pretty quiet channel currently