[04:57] <hikiko> hi
[05:44] <pitti> Good morning
[05:44] <TheMuso> Hey pitti, how are you?
[05:44] <pitti> TheMuso: quite fine, thanks! how about yourself?
[05:45] <TheMuso> pitti: Not too bad thanks.
[05:45] <pitti> temperatures finally dropped quite a bit with some rain at last, so much better sleep last night
[05:46] <TheMuso> Nice to hear, how has summer been treating you overall?
[05:46] <TheMuso> Pleasant if slightly mild winter here, although it would be nice if there was less wind.
[05:47] <pitti> quite nice overall; we didn't have such an extreme draught like last year when we had no rain for 2.5 months
[05:48] <TheMuso> Thats good.
[06:34] <desrt> moin
[08:04] <Laney> hiho brexiteers
[08:04] <willcooke> morning Laney
[08:05] <Laney> I KNEW YOU'D RESPOND
[08:05] <willcooke> :)
[08:05] <willcooke> I've been expecting you
[08:05] <willcooke> muhaha
[08:05] <Laney> step into my office
[08:05] <Laney> what up
[08:06] <davmor2> I expect you to die mr lane.......wait that's the wrong movie
[08:06] <Laney> sharks with fricken laser beams
[08:06] <davmor2> morning willcooke Laney
[08:07] <pitti> hey Laney, hello willcooke!
[08:07] <pitti> hey davmor2
[08:07] <seb128> hey european friends & others
[08:07] <Laney> ahoy!
[08:07] <alexarnaud> Hey willcooke, seb128, Trevinho and all :) ! How are you today ?
[08:07]  * davmor2 installs 16.04.1 on a pendrive to see if I get a press enter key after install on a really machine
[08:07] <Laney> it feels $something to be back
[08:08] <pitti> bonjour seb128 ! enfin de vie dans cette chaîne !
[08:08] <pitti> Laney: did you find a non-sucky connection at last?
[08:09] <alexarnaud> TheMuso: I have installed a Ubuntu Mate 16.04 yesterda with some troubles. The most is important was Orca shutdown after less than 2 or 3 minutes.
[08:09] <Laney> pitti: I'm back home now, so it is good again
[08:09] <Laney> modulo being on my home's crappy powerline connection
[08:10] <pitti> Laney: and already more travelling next weekend :(
[08:10] <Laney> but that's only because I am incapable of crimping the replacement cable
[08:10] <Laney> indeed!
[08:10] <davmor2> Laney: with your hiho greeting I can only believe you've been practising a role for a dwarf for the christmas panto
[08:10] <davmor2> pitti: morning dude
[08:10] <davmor2> Laney: that or your role as the lone ranger
[08:20] <willcooke> seb128, if you get a chance could you review this and merge in to Y? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-control-center/+bug/1599264
[08:21] <seb128> willcooke, sure, I though robert_ancell did review it though?
[08:21] <seb128> hum, seems he did but didn't change the mp status, I just did that
[08:21] <willcooke> ah thx
[08:21] <willcooke> is that aka a "top approve"?
[08:21] <seb128> yes
[08:22] <willcooke> got it
[08:22] <willcooke> so it will get merged automatically in to Y now right?  Is there manual work to do for X?
[08:22] <seb128> I'm going to have a look at doing a landing, note that we can't SRU this week since there is already a u-c-c SRU to match the unity lowgfx changes
[08:22] <willcooke> ahh
[08:22] <willcooke> of course
[08:23] <seb128> and no there is no automatic merging anymore
[08:23] <seb128> we need to do a landing
[08:23] <seb128> but since we can't SRU now we can as well look at batching some other changes for an y landing
[08:49] <pitti> note, as long as the previous SRU's changes are included, you technically can SRU
[08:49] <pitti> the main downside is that you invalidate existing verifications and reset the 7 day period, but sometimes that's ok
[08:49] <seb128> right
[08:49] <seb128> it's getting close from .1 now though
[08:51] <seb128> unsure when they expect to freeze things though, nobody replied to my email to devel
[08:53] <pitti> I suppose we'll need to fast-track some SRUs, so they need to be tested more intensely
[08:54] <pitti> .1 is supposed to happen next Thu?
[08:54] <willcooke> yeah
[08:54] <pitti> then the freeze usually starts a week before
[08:54] <pitti> but probably best to discuss with whoever actually drives 16.04.1
[09:35] <andyrock> hey all
[09:42] <flexiondotorg> Laney, The Ubuntu MATE team are going to start on GTK 3.20 migration in the next day or so.
[09:42] <flexiondotorg> We're going to use you're work as a reference.
[09:42] <Laney> Poor you
[09:42] <Laney> :)
[09:42] <flexiondotorg> If we find anything else worthwhile, I'll let you know.
[09:43] <flexiondotorg> Yes, I'm about to feel your pain ;-)
[09:45] <Laney> Radiance is going to be done in a couple of hours
[09:45] <Laney> "done"
[11:52]  * Laney got chewed to bits at the allotment last night
[11:52] <Laney> itchyyyy
[12:27] <davmor2> hmm why would 16.04.1 have a blank home scope that says Sorr,there is nothing that matches your search, when I haven't searched for anything, but 16.10 show the default 5 apps that I expected?
[12:28] <davmor2> this is in live session need to do an install and see if it is the same there
[12:34] <davmor2> hmmm works in 16.04 original too I'll reboot the machine and see if it works after reboot
[12:37] <davmor2> Yay now it works no idea why it didn't
[13:06] <jhodapp> Laney, hey what do you use to apply our gst-plugins-bad patches in debian/ to the base source tree?
[13:30] <flexiondotorg> Laney, I've just prepare an Ubuntu MATE 16.10 VM and added the ubuntu-desktop/gtk320 PPA.
[13:30]  * flexiondotorg sobs
[13:31] <flexiondotorg> The breakage is extensive. Do you have an ETA for when GTK 3.20 might land in 16.10?
[14:13] <Laney> jhodapp: Quilt
[14:13] <Laney> flexiondotorg: You said your themes aren't that forked, so it won't be too much work for you
[14:13] <jhodapp> Laney, oh ok, you don't use any specific gbp?
[14:14] <jhodapp> s/specific//
[14:14] <Laney> No fancy stuff for the patches
[14:14] <flexiondotorg> Laney, Indeed.
[14:14] <flexiondotorg> I was just bit shocked at the extent of the regression.
[14:15] <flexiondotorg> Laney, And expect more of the same in GTK 3.22.
[14:15] <Laney> Why?
[14:15] <flexiondotorg> We're working on that in upstream MATE right now.
[14:15] <davmor2> flexiondotorg: that's not sounding good :(
[14:16] <flexiondotorg> Behaviour changes in GTK 3.22 that break quite a bit of stuff.
[14:16] <Laney> reference please
[14:17] <flexiondotorg> Laney, some examples here - https://github.com/mate-desktop/caja/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed
[14:18] <flexiondotorg> https://github.com/mate-desktop/caja/pull/559
[14:19] <flexiondotorg> https://github.com/mate-desktop/caja/pull/573
[14:20] <flexiondotorg> https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-themes/commits/gtk3.22
[14:21] <desrt> everything here is talking about 3.20
[14:22] <flexiondotorg> The themes yes, in general.
[15:02] <Laney> desrt { border-style: dashed; }
[15:05]  * desrt feels .. styled
[15:05]  * Laney gave you a makeover
[15:07] <Laney> http://www.classicfm.com/music-news/latest-news/cameron-humming-cello-piano/
[15:08] <Laney> (original: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36767880)
[15:10] <seb128> uk comedy
[15:10] <Laney> simply the best
[15:13] <seb128> I didn't follow much the recent news out of the titles/short description, is she likely to invoke article 50 after getting nominated?
[15:13] <seb128> or is she on the "need to figure out what we are going to do first"
[15:16] <gQuigs> hi there
[15:16] <gQuigs> any thoughts on dropping i386 ISOs?  (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2016-July/004806.html)
[15:16]  * gQuigs is happy to discuss more at the meeting
[15:17] <seb128> wasn't that already discussed on several lists?
[15:18] <gQuigs> seb128: yea, and the end result was to ask each flavor what they want to do seperately
[15:18] <seb128> k, well desktop case is clear from the devel discussion
[15:18] <gQuigs> there has been no action (and only lubuntu has really finished the discussion saying definitely keep i386 for 18.04)
[15:19] <seb128> I think the agreement was that we want to keep the arch but drop the iso
[15:19] <seb128> unsure if we do it this cycle or next
[15:19] <seb128> willcooke said he would check if we have partners/people relying on the i386 installation media
[15:20] <Laney> I don't think we would take specific measures to stop things building
[15:20] <Laney> which the mail suggested
[15:20] <Laney> packages
[15:21] <Laney> seb128: can't see it being invoked super soon, but who knows
[15:21] <Laney> keep your ears open tomorrow
[15:21] <seb128> right
[15:21]  * Laney uploads radiance-3.20
[15:21] <willcooke> seb128, I did and we dont
[15:22] <gQuigs> Laney: yea, it just becomes more difficult to test for those users, hence the thought to block updates in some ways
[15:22] <gQuigs> *upgrades
[15:22] <seb128> willcooke, good ... do you think we should wait a vUDS to discuss the topic there before doing the change? or just do it this cycle?
[15:22] <willcooke> I would prefer to wait
[15:23] <seb128> +1
[15:23] <willcooke> seems like a thing which should be decided at the start of a new cycle rather than 1/2 way through IMO
[15:23] <Laney> gQuigs: like we test desktop for arm64 powerpc ppc64el s390x?
[15:23] <seb128> gQuigs, it's for sure easier to test an i386 build than a s390x or arm64 one no?
[15:23] <willcooke> but we should start talking about it publically (which we are doing, and indeed are doing right this second)
[15:23] <seb128> doh, Laney snapped me :p
[15:24] <Laney> but people might actually try to run it on i386 still
[15:24] <gQuigs> no I mean if you drop the DVD, and then a user with a i386 package has an issue, you have no easy install medium to reinstall or try out what happened
[15:24] <Laney> which they won't on the others probably
[15:25] <seb128> gQuigs, if you reinstall you don't need to use 32 bits
[15:25] <seb128> also users can still get a 16.04 iso to test/reinstall
[15:25] <seb128> it's supported for many years
[15:25] <Laney> did $other_irc_network just go down?
[15:26] <seb128> Laney, wfm
[15:26] <Laney> WHAT
[15:26] <seb128> you timeouted though
[15:26] <seb128> connected to vpn?
[15:26] <Laney> Name or service not known
[15:26] <Laney> no
[15:26] <seb128> weird
[15:27] <gQuigs> seb128: there are still users who have only i386 capable hardware - to be fair most are running Lubuntu now but still
[15:27] <seb128> gQuigs, as said they can use 16.04 for many years to come
[15:27] <seb128> they can also keep using lubuntu iso of those still exist
[15:27] <seb128> in any case that would be a plaid to keep the i386 iso
[15:28] <seb128> not really related to your question about stopping to build packages for it
[15:28] <gQuigs> seb128: I agree, but then what's the use case of having new versions of unity in whatever version we drop i386 from say 17.04?
[15:28] <seb128> you mean why building it on i386?
[15:29] <gQuigs> right
[15:29] <seb128> we build it on ppc64el
[15:29] <seb128> and I don't think we publish desktop iso of that
[15:29] <seb128> unsure why that's an argument now for i386
[15:29] <willcooke> main one is things like Atom processors which will be used in industrial computing
[15:30] <seb128> it might be useful to people and doesn't cost a lot to maintain
[15:30] <willcooke> they probably dont want a desktop, but would like the archive
[15:30] <seb128> also other flavors might still need it
[15:30] <seb128> oh
[15:30] <seb128> on that note, meeting time!
[15:30] <gQuigs> seb128: yea, Ubuntu Kylin for now
[15:30] <gQuigs> thanks for the discussion!
[15:30] <seb128> yw!
[15:30] <willcooke> gQuigs, sorry to cut you off, but the meeting will be short
[15:30] <willcooke> lots of people out today
[15:31] <gQuigs> it's ok, that covered everything I wanted to get too :)
[15:31] <willcooke> thanks gQuigs
[15:31] <gQuigs> ty
[15:31] <willcooke> #startmeeting Desktop Team Weekly Meeting - 2016-07-12
[15:31] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jul 12 15:31:29 2016 UTC.  The chair is willcooke. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:31] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:31] <willcooke> Roll call: andyrock, attente, desrt (out),  dgadomski, fjkong, happyaron (swap), hikiko (out), laney, qengho (out), seb128, sweet5hark, themuso (out), tkamppeter, trevinho, robert_ancell (out)
[15:31] <Sweet5hark> heya
[15:31] <andyrock> o/
[15:31] <seb128> hey
[15:31] <Laney> meow
[15:32] <dgadomski> hey
[15:32] <FJKong> --. .-
[15:32] <Trevinho> Hey
[15:32] <willcooke> FJKong, can you do semaphor too?
[15:33] <willcooke> Right, let's go, this will be pretty quick this week
[15:33] <FJKong> willcooke: no.. just morse code
[15:33] <willcooke> #topic andyrock
[15:34]  * willcooke makes a note to change the topic once we're done 
[15:34] <andyrock> 1. [BUG:1575452] Copy/move dialog cannot be switched to - DONE
[15:34] <andyrock> 2.  [BUG:1600389] Keep the screen locked if autologin is enabled - WIP
[15:34] <andyrock> 3. Change bug descriptions for SRUs
[15:34] <andyrock> eof
[15:35] <willcooke> thanks andyrock
[15:35] <willcooke> is there a ppa I can use to play with # 1?
[15:35] <andyrock> not yet
[15:35] <andyrock> if you need I can setup one
[15:35] <willcooke> nah, I can wait for the silo etc.  Would you ping me a link when you have one?
[15:36] <andyrock> yup, i'll setup a recipe btw
[15:36] <andyrock> should be ready in a couple of hours
[15:36] <willcooke> nice, thanks andyrock, no hurry though
[15:36] <willcooke> #topic attente
[15:36] <attente> hey
[15:36] <attente> finished reviewing anpok's first set of gtk-mir patches
[15:36] <attente> snapd-xdg-open sru
[15:37] <attente> first iteration of menu patches have been reviewed and currently making revisions on them now
[15:37] <attente> (eof)
[15:37] <willcooke> great stuff, thanks attente
[15:37] <willcooke> #topic desrt
[15:37] <willcooke>  * now on european time until after GUADEC
[15:37] <willcooke>  * path lookup code is now finding 'library' (ie: plugin/resource) files
[15:37] <willcooke>  for libs (lib/) and programs (bin/) in system and "bundled" locations,
[15:37] <willcooke>  seamlessly, without recompile
[15:37] <willcooke>  * managed to sort out multiarch and "lib64" style library directories
[15:37] <willcooke>  even when the program in question is in bin/ by using the location of
[15:37] <willcooke>  glib itself
[15:37] <willcooke>  * started looking in to what will be necessary to unify the code with
[15:37] <willcooke>  our approach to windows and macos
[15:37] <willcooke>  * ^D
[15:37] <willcooke> #topic dgadomski
[15:37] <dgadomski> hey
[15:38] <dgadomski> I continued working on bug #1598183, checking how the file open flags are set in gio/glib
[15:38] <dgadomski> nd that's it in the desktop area, thanks
[15:38] <willcooke> thanks a lot dgadomski
[15:38] <willcooke> #topic FJKong
[15:38] <FJKong> hi
[15:38] <FJKong>  
[15:38] <FJKong> * translation  work for bug/1588140 bug/1588646 bug/1588660 bug/1588647, source code reading for context
[15:38] <FJKong> * tracking bug about sogou IM crash after suspend
[15:38] <FJKong> * switch IM when in brower problem
[15:38] <FJKong> eof
[15:39] <willcooke> FJKong, did you phone arrive?
[15:39] <willcooke> *your
[15:39] <FJKong> not yet
[15:39] <willcooke> grrr
[15:39] <willcooke> I'll ask for another one to be sent.
[15:39] <FJKong> Nancy should notice me when it arrived
[15:39] <FJKong> I think it is on the road maybe
[15:40] <FJKong> some guy call me to confirm the infomation
[15:40] <willcooke> ah good!
[15:40] <willcooke> so it's in progress
[15:40] <FJKong> ye
[15:40] <willcooke> I will get a tracking number and see what I can find out.
[15:40] <willcooke> thanks FJKong
[15:40] <willcooke> #topic happyaron
[15:40] <willcooke> happyaron, please let me have your update by email
[15:41] <willcooke> #topic hikiko
[15:41] <willcooke> - debug compiz/unity (bugs, startup issue, Y&X vm etc)
[15:41] <willcooke> - some minor fixes in compiz, unity
[15:41] <willcooke> - updated OEM documents
[15:41] <willcooke> - snap, lxd configuration
[15:41] <willcooke> - looking for other performance issues or improvements that can be done in lowgfx
[15:41] <willcooke> #topic Laney
[15:41] <Laney> • debconf
[15:41] <Laney> ∘ hacked on the new appstream generator, now it can work without a local mirror by downloading stuff on demand
[15:41] <Laney> ‣ still needs langpack and translation support at least, will get it on appstream.staging.ubuntu.com once IS get a move on
[15:41] <Laney> ∘ got libpeas syncable, uploaded, synced & it migrated
[15:41] <Laney> ∘ saw lots of talks, had lots of talks about appstream, ubuntu patches, britney, GRs, dak, transitions, problems/opportunities for derivatives, trademark policies, penguins
[15:41] <Laney> • theme work
[15:41] <Laney> ∘ Radiance is ported now too, uploaded to ppa
[15:41] <Laney> ∘ some people contributed some extra fixes, need to review those
[15:41] <Laney> • in the previous week I hacked on gnome-terminal and got that to work properly with gtk 3.20
[15:41] <Laney> • pushed on some SRUs
[15:41] <Laney> • I got a systemd bug where it spins at 100% cpu; something related to timer jobs - tried to nail it down but didn't manage to yet
[15:41] <Laney> 😰
[15:42] <seb128> conference report coming? ;-)
[15:42] <willcooke> nice bullets
[15:42] <seb128> the list of talk topics look interesting
[15:42] <willcooke> thanks Laney
[15:42] <seb128> I guess I can try to get a over-a-beer summary from you next week ;-)
[15:43] <willcooke> :)
[15:43] <Laney> that's conversations
[15:43] <willcooke> #topic qengho
[15:43] <Laney> not talks
[15:43] <willcooke> - yakkety Cr package partially debian-merged, and simplified, DONE. IN-PROGRESS backporting to t,v,x if possible.
[15:43] <willcooke> - IN-PROGRESS more work on dekko snap package, debugging its Qt crash bugs.
[15:43] <willcooke> - TO-DO verify chromium snap security changes. look for remaining blockers.
[15:43] <willcooke> oops, sorry Laney
[15:43] <Laney> talks is http://meetings-archive.debian.net/Public/debian-meetings/2016/debconf16/
[15:43] <Laney> carry on
[15:43] <willcooke> #topic seb128
[15:43] <seb128> • vac on friday
[15:43] <seb128> • investigated lightdm/ucc regression concerning user login history
[15:43] <seb128> • helped with some SRU verifications for xenial
[15:43] <seb128> • tested lowgfx compiz version, found an issue with ucc which Marco fixed, good work Eleni&Marco!
[15:43] <seb128> • looked at some snappy issues (java integration, xim erroring out, ...)
[15:43] <seb128> • NEW reviews for the phone team
[15:43] <seb128> • some desktop code reviews&sponsoring
[15:43] <seb128> • thursday is our national day so day off work

[15:43] <seb128> thursday is the coming one
[15:43] <willcooke> thanks seb128
[15:44] <willcooke> #topic Sweet5hark
[15:44] <seb128> Laney, thanks
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> - snappy work on rc2 -- still l10n troubles, debugged the cause, no fix yet
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> - this makes building l10n on snappy terribly slow but the result works
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> => 709MB snap thus (including l10n, Base&Java, but without symbols or debuggability)
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> - smoketested and bumped libreoffice 5.2 in the prereleases ppa
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> => some nastiness there still: gtk2 doesnt have unity menus, default Ubuntu gtk3 themes look horrible still, but unity menues work on gtk3
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> => both suck, will go with gtk3 as priority for yakkety dpkg packages, gtk2 is getting more and more obsolete as other distros retreat from it too
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> => also we already have too many scenarios to support, so at least we should now keep snap and debs on the same gtk backend
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> - would like to upload the rc2 snap to the store, but miss part of the creds for the store. if you have the account ping me.
[15:44] <Sweet5hark> EOF
[15:44] <willcooke> thanks Sweet5hark
[15:45] <willcooke> I wonder if we should build a snap for the store with just, say, top 10 languages for now - would that reduce the size of the snap?  (I appreciate this will be slow and painful to rebuild the snap, but I think 700MB+ is too much) for now
[15:45] <seb128> +1 for gtk3
[15:46] <seb128> going for the new serie/version we can as well go for current techs
[15:46] <Sweet5hark> willcooke: it would reduce the snap. but it will lead to an endless bikeshed. and the infra guys said they plan/test with 500-1500MB for now.
[15:48] <Sweet5hark> seb128: yeah, gtk3 will uncover lots of cornercases in e.g. copy-paste, focus issues and somesuch. but I dont think they will disappear when we dont go for this now (its LTS+1)
[15:48] <willcooke> Sweet5hark, this would be a stop gap I think until we can work out how to package langpacks as separate snaps.  So I'm happy to arbitrarily decide on those langpacks.  Perhaps we build two, one with X,Y,Z langs and a full one
[15:48] <seb128> just pick the langs that are on the desktop iso?
[15:48] <willcooke> Sweet5hark, let's take this one offline, after the meeting, or whatever
[15:49] <Sweet5hark> willcooke: aye
[15:49] <seb128> but yeah, +1 on post meeting
[15:49] <willcooke> ack
[15:49] <willcooke> ta
[15:49] <willcooke> #topic TheMuso
[15:49] <willcooke> * Started looking into submitting a pull request to extend the optical-drive snap interface to work with cdparanoia, aka add /dev/sg* support, but I noticed that the sg support is not specific to optical devices, so will need to start a discussion on the snappy-dev list about that one.
[15:49] <willcooke> * Through further digging, ti seems that even when told to use /dev/sr*, cdparanoia is still not able to access it, even with the optical-drive interface in the snapcraft yaml file. Either I'm not doing something right somewhere, or I need to add something that I haven't worked out yet. Investigation ongoing.
[15:49] <willcooke> * Took a bit of time to work on a few bug fixes for a11y-profile-manager, such that the indicator now hangs around when switching profiles, and other doc changes.
[15:49] <willcooke> #topic tkamppeter
[15:50] <willcooke> 30 second time out....
[15:51] <Laney> he's buried under a mountain of a4 paper
[15:51] <willcooke> tkamppeter, please let me have your updates via email, or later on in the meeting...
[15:51] <Laney> the printing got too much
[15:51] <willcooke> :)
[15:51] <willcooke> #topic Trevinho
[15:51]  * ogra wonders if you dotn want to drop that euro2016 anachronism from your topic at some point :) 
[15:51] <Trevinho> · Landing of Unity, Compiz, Bamf, ucc, libunity for yakkety and SRU.
[15:51] <Trevinho> · Update bugs for SRUs
[15:51] <Trevinho> · Compiz and Unity reviews
[15:51] <Trevinho> · Continued work in unity8 indicators/menus
[15:51] <Trevinho> · Bad week for tax payers... Done mine :°(
[15:52] <willcooke> ogra, 16:34: * willcooke makes a note to change the topic once we're done :)
[15:52] <willcooke> thanks Trevinho
[15:52] <ogra> :)
[15:52] <willcooke> #topic robert_ancell
[15:52] <willcooke> - General bug fixing
[15:52] <willcooke> - Snap sprint prep
[15:52] <willcooke> #topic AOB
[15:53] <willcooke> I'm writing a 16.04.1 "blog post" thing.  If anyone has any ideas for what to talk about please ping me
[15:53] <willcooke> I've got some stuff, but it's a bit bottom-of-the-barrel stuff
[15:54] <willcooke> Oh, in recognition of my European cousins, I am also taking Thursday off
[15:54] <seb128> :-)
[15:54] <willcooke> solidarity brothers
[15:54] <willcooke> Anyone got any other news, gossip, or scandal?
[15:55] <willcooke> 3....
[15:55] <willcooke> 2..
[15:55] <willcooke> 1.
[15:55] <willcooke> #endmeeting
[15:55] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jul 12 15:55:39 2016 UTC.
[15:55] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-desktop/2016/ubuntu-desktop.2016-07-12-15.31.moin.txt
[15:55] <willcooke> thanks all
[15:55] <seb128> thanks!
[15:56] <ogra> :)
[15:57] <willcooke> Oh, wait, The Open starts on Thursday.  So we can be golf themed \o/
[15:58] <willcooke> so seb128 Sweet5hark - I think we need to do a cut down snap for a reduced number of langs.
[15:59] <willcooke> Ideally something which only adds 100MB max
[15:59] <willcooke> How many langs would that be?
[16:00] <Laney> is snap getting something like langpacks?
[16:00] <seb128> not currently on the roadmap
[16:00] <seb128> but it's getting shared content
[16:00] <seb128> so you could have libreoffice-l10n-gb which shares content
[16:01] <Laney> something like that
[16:01] <Laney> i reckon you would also use this thing for debugging symbols
[16:01] <seb128> yes
[16:01] <seb128> no doubt it's going to come
[16:01] <Laney> flatpak has that
[16:01] <seb128> yep
[16:01] <Sweet5hark> willcooke: I _think_ its some 100 langs as of now and those add some 400MB in total. So ~5 MB per lang, 100MB would be maybe 20 langs.
[16:02] <seb128> though they are having interesting discussions on the upstream list
[16:02] <Laney> man my hand is huge
[16:02] <seb128> on how do you get locales to install with $software
[16:02] <seb128> when using gnome-software
[16:02] <ogra> you could trivially just have it download languages ...
[16:02] <seb128> and which ones
[16:02] <ogra> and store them in SNAP_DATA or SNAP_USER_DATA
[16:02] <seb128> like they don't want to bundle everything in one pack (which they current do I think)
[16:03] <seb128> but if you have different -<locale> you need to determine what to install
[16:03] <Sweet5hark> ah, flatpak has whatever-they-call-library-plugins? hohum.
[16:03] <seb128> dunno
[16:03] <seb128> they have l10n and dbg as special things atm
[16:03] <seb128> dunno if those are special really
[16:04] <Laney> they're called extensions
[16:05] <seb128> k
[16:05] <Sweet5hark> (and even if there are library-plugins/extensions/whatevs, at least for libreoffice that would require some extra patching again as it expects l10n pretty much in-tree ...
[16:05] <seb128> so the l10n/dbg is that automated by their tools?
[16:05] <seb128> but yeah, I guess we need to do that manually for now
[16:06] <seb128> until the snappy team has bandwith to work on proper automatic handling for those
[16:07] <Sweet5hark> also note, that many l10ns are actually pointless without lots of fonts in the package (e.g. chinese or hindu or $stuff without the fonts for that)
[16:09] <Sweet5hark> FWIW, I dont think the LibreOffice flatpak guys care about that right now. I mean, they dont even ship LibreOffice Base. That stuff is just a glorified PoC for now.
[16:09]  * ogra dosnt get whats the prob with shipping  "linbreoffice.download-langs" command that simply downloads the necessary langpacks
[16:10] <ogra> (if LO isnt capable of doing it on its own)
[16:10] <ogra> such stuff can fine live inside the snap ...
[16:11] <Sweet5hark> ogra: Download langpack from where? with what transport validation/signatures?
[16:11] <ogra> (as an interim indeed)
[16:11] <Laney> doh
[16:12] <ogra> Sweet5hark, some https server ? or even dedicated ssh and ship a pub key ... dunno, up to you
[16:12] <ogra> i'm just saying there are easy hacks around the current situation
[16:13] <Sweet5hark> ogra: so uuuhm, Canonical should provide a l10n infra and signature verification infra?
[16:13] <ogra> the flatpack way is a can of worms ... at some point you start to need versioning for the libs langpacks or dbgs files .... then you are back at having rpm/deb and dependency hell
[16:14] <ogra> Sweet5hark, well, snaps should provide DLC
[16:14] <ogra> you will need it for games and such anyway at some point
[16:14] <Laney> versioning?
[16:14] <Laney> they just require the same version
[16:14] <Laney> as their parent
[16:15] <ogra> Laney, so my flapack that i create on last years debian release wont run on this years fedora
[16:15] <ogra> if there was an ABI bump etc
[16:16] <Laney> what does that have to do with extensions?
[16:16] <ogra> it has to do with shared libs
[16:16] <Laney> (and also, false, because you will get the runtime that you need)
[16:16] <Sweet5hark> At this point we are pretty much recreating LibreOffice dpkg packaging arent we? One source package, multiple binaries, but ~no dependencies over source package borders ...
[16:18] <Sweet5hark> ogra: How is snaps better there? E.g. the discussion about JVMs and giving people the choice there. Do we want create 10 different LibreOffice snaps -- each with a different JVM?
[16:20] <ogra> dont ask me, i'm not an architect :) ... but i know that DLC is on the roadmap (not sure how high though) ... and such stuff sounds pretty much like DLC
[16:20] <ogra> themes, fonts, languages, plugins ...
[16:20] <ogra> (and even a JVM)
[16:21] <Sweet5hark> well, if I have an extension written in Java that needs a specific JVM that requires dependencies between DLC ...
[16:22] <ogra> so ship it along with a jvm
[16:23] <Sweet5hark> ogra: how does the libreoffice extension then tell libreoffice to use the JVM bundled with the LibreOffice extension? you are back to dependency hell then.
[16:23] <ogra> how does it do that now ?
[16:24] <ogra> (if i use a tird party java extension, ho does it know the vm matches ?)
[16:27] <Sweet5hark> ogra: well, a dpkg packaged extension can declare that (and it will possibly point it out to the user at install). On Windows, you just tell the user "you shall use this JVM" and hope for the best (aka that the user selects the right JVM in the LibreOffice config).
[16:27] <Sweet5hark> ogra: Im not saying snaps are worse. Just that they arent better in this case either.
[16:27] <ogra> well, we'd be in the windows realm then i guess
[16:28] <ogra> well, you own a special package here as well :)
[16:29] <Sweet5hark> ogra: "special package" -- not really. Just imagine this for the folks using something like the Eclipse IDE ...
[16:29] <ogra> yes, there are perhaps ten such packages .. indeed you are not alone :)
[16:30] <ogra> but it is still a minority ... (sadly the more important minority i guess)
[16:31] <andyrock> seb128: hey do you know how auto-login works?
[16:31] <andyrock> it used to use the nopasswdlogin group
[16:32] <ogra> Sweet5hark, why dont i see you on the heidleber sprint list btw ? sounds like your input would be massively valuable
[16:32] <Sweet5hark> as for "doing it like Windows", yeah, that sound workable, but snap as of now doesnt support that (Because on windows the JVM can be installed and then selected from the software. We dont have that yet for snaps AFAICS: There is no way to have e.g. multiple JVM delivered outside of a snap and then letting a snap pick one ...
[16:32] <ogra> *heidelberg
[16:33] <ogra> (in fact is seems desktop is rather under-represented there )
[16:34] <ogra> we even sponsor plenty of community people to attend and give input about their needs ...
[16:35] <Sweet5hark> ogra: Well, it might be a minority of the software that is currently shipped as dpkg. It certainly isnt a minority of the software that we intend to ship with snappy: I guess a huge set of software e.g. on windows has to deal with such runtime/VM issues all the time. Like the whole enterprise Java foo. Thats why developing on wndows is so painful.
[16:37] <ogra> Sweet5hark, i mean from a packaging POV packages like android studio, libreoffice or eclipse are a rare case where you have gigantic packages that have a million abilities to interact with other bits of the desktop ... from the 15000 packages in the ubuntu archive they make up a fraction
[16:38] <ogra> i didnt mean they are rarely used (quite the opposite indeed)
[16:38] <pitti> oh wow, starting evince without an argument shows the most recently used documents, how useful!
[16:39] <ogra> Sweet5hark, they are special in their way of packaging ...
[16:42] <Sweet5hark> sure, but do we want to ship the 15000 packages that we already have in *.debs? Or rather the 150000 that arent. For the latter the picture is different: They all depend on some Java foo, or on Python2 or 3 or on a C++ runtime or a .Net runtime etc. And e.g. armies of Java developers justify their sorry existance by moving some enterprise foo to another JVM as it needs to talk some other piece of java.
[16:43] <Sweet5hark> The reason we havent everything in *.debs is exactly that: These dependencies are a pain.
[16:57] <willcooke> Sweet5hark, the langs in the iso are en, es, zh (simplified), pt, de, fr, it, ru (thanks d__idrocks) - so let's build a snap with those as well/instead for now.
[17:00] <Sweet5hark> willcooke: well, yeah. in that case ... we should likely skip zh and ru as I guess they need special fonts anyway ... (and maybe add at least pt_BR)
[17:00] <willcooke> +1
[17:00] <willcooke> thdx
[17:40] <seb128> andyrock, I don't remember the details, but the nopassword group is one way, I think that's what u-c-c does
[17:40] <seb128> no sorry
[17:41] <seb128> that's no password option
[17:41] <seb128> the autologin is a dm thing iirc
[17:41] <seb128> the user still has a password
[17:41] <seb128> which you need for admin auth, screen locking, keyring unlock, etc
[18:18] <davmor2> hmmmm nvidia binary prevents the screen from blanking :(
[18:35] <willcooke> night all
[21:33] <robert_ancell> desrt, yo
[21:41] <robert_ancell> desrt, trying to find out the current state of gsetting / snap support...