[00:59] Howdy, y'all! [00:59] qengho: mornin' [01:30] jbicha: where are you these days? [01:30] S of Tampa, FL [01:32] so, not morning here :) [01:32] I just didn't want you to be lonely like yesterday so I said hi this time [01:33] <3 [01:37] <3 [01:38] jbicha: I'm back in CFL in 5 days. [01:41] jbicha_: I'm back in CFL in 5 days. === jbicha_ is now known as jbicha [01:47] qengho: cool, that's quite a time zone shift [01:55] jbicha: It's an entire π out of phase. [01:58] it's cool that you wouldn't have to adjust an old-school analog clock/watch for it [05:00] Hello [05:09] hi [07:19] good morning desktopers [07:59] morning all [08:02] morning all [08:02] hey ho [08:05] “A new version of Ubuntu is available. Would you like to upgrade?” [08:06] * mpt tries to click a button in the dialog, but it jumps from the center of the screen to the top left corner [08:06] * mpt tries again, but a moment too soon, the dialog disappears altogether [08:07] hey willcooke andyrock Laney [08:08] mpt, did it crash? :-( was that on trusty? [08:11] hey seb128 [08:12] how's it going? [08:12] Laney, happy friday! how are you today? how is rainy u.k? [08:12] going well [08:12] morning Laney! [08:12] glad that it's friday ;-) [08:12] though still a busy todolist for the day [08:13] hey pitti! [08:13] I am crippled today [08:13] Laney: uh, what happened? climbing? [08:13] yeah [08:13] it was weird though [08:13] I was just doing a climb and then managed to ruin my neck [08:13] and it's quite bad today [08:13] maybe pinched a nerve or so [08:13] urgh [08:14] * Laney is on ibuprofen [08:14] :(( [08:14] .. and I just wanted to ask you whether you could fill in for me during my vac.. [08:15] did you know that ibuprofen was discovered in nottingham? [08:15] #funfacts [08:15] fill in in what way? [08:15] probably not at basketball [08:15] but in other ways, sure ;-) [08:15] Laney: discovered just for these crazy climbers? :-) [08:16] * seb128 steps up for taking care of that daily icecream scoop [08:16] Laney: for keeping an eye on the autopkgtest machinery [08:16] seb128: that's the hardest tasks of all! [08:16] indeed! [08:16] we didn't even manage to get ice cream once while you were here [08:16] well, we did have the one you grabbed on Sat [08:16] I went yesterday evening though :p [08:17] right [08:17] I'm glad I did ;-) [08:18] pitti: ah yeah, sure [08:18] o/ [08:18] the queues are looking large [08:18] Laney: I'll be off from next Wed for 1.5 weeks [08:18] Laney: yeah, moar KDE goodness [08:18] Laney, I hope you are going to be better for the w.e and that it's not going to ruin your w.e plans [08:18] Laney: they went over the Qt 5.6 and Perl humps yesterday [08:18] Laney: I messed up the setup-testbed script which caused a bunch of failures this morning, but TTBOMK everything is running smoothly now [08:19] Laney: other than that I renamed lcy01.rc to *.disabled to avoid getting spammed by those mails every 6 hours [08:19] okay [08:19] apparently reviving lcy01 is a bigger task [08:19] I wonder what happened to it [08:20] the disk of the DB server had been brittle for a while already, and apparently it now died completely [08:20] R.I.P. mysql [08:21] seb128, Laney: I hope systemd 231-1 will land by tomorrow, then I could land gnome-session to enable systemd sessions in y; problem is, that's right before my holidays, so if anything goes seriously wrong could you revert the Exec= line back to gnome-session in case? [08:22] seb128, it came back eventually … It was an example of the mistake of letting windows appear before the window manager has launched [08:24] pitti: Alright, let's do it [08:24] I'm going to upload gtk today too (but block it for a bit more in proposed) [08:24] crack day [08:24] flexiondotorg: you ready with your theme? [08:24] Laney, close. [08:25] Perhaps close enough for not total breakage. [08:25] 'k [08:25] Laney: that's the spirit :) [08:25] When are you planning to land GTK 3.20? [08:25] Laney: if/once I land it, I'll mail u-devel@ with contingency options [08:25] Ah, today. [08:26] mpt, ah ok, that explains why it moved I was wondering [08:26] flexiondotorg: I'll block it for a bit though, there's still some unity-greeter problems that I would like to fix beforehand [08:26] OK, no problem. [08:26] Just want to get a start on having things built [08:26] seb128: actually, I see no reason to not have daily ice cream on our bike trip along the Danube, so sorry, this task isn't available :-P [08:27] Also let everybody get their themes & stuff lined up [08:27] WHat we have now will prevent total breakage, but some bits still need work. [08:27] Got a while until the next milestone anyway [08:27] Laney, do you have bug #1548425 on your list? binding api changed it seems, it might be worth checking the rdepends before letting it in [08:27] That is for Ubuntu MATE Themes. But, I'm happy to move. [08:27] bug 1548425 in update-manager (Ubuntu Yakkety) "update-manager crashed with AttributeError in check_hovering(): 'tuple' object has no attribute 'get_tags'" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1548425 [08:27] I also need to upload mate-themes for 3.20. They are 100% complete. [08:28] pitti, bah! fair enough, going to fork it and do is as well anyway :p [08:28] * pitti ^5s seb128 [08:28] * seb128 ^5s pitti [08:30] seb128: no, thx [08:30] yw! [08:47] Laney, thanks for the suggestions to the apt issue. [08:51] np! [09:16] ahh, who remembers Summer 2016? [09:18] willcooke: Definitely me. Had two months of it in Jan-Feb. Had another month of it in USA. And will have another month starting Dec :) [09:19] willcooke: I slept through it [09:19] Actually to be fair, summer in Oz is longer than 3 months [09:24] :) [09:31] willcooke: lets move to oz [09:31] :D [09:32] It's full of Australians! [09:32] (Intentionally ambiguous tone on that.) [10:16] seb128, Laney: huh, the systemd beast landed in y! so the infra is in place now, awesome [10:16] scary! [10:16] I'll still wait with gnome-session until Monday though [10:17] first, because Friday and second because new systemd upstream version, let's keep the bugs apart :) [10:17] * pitti cleans up the ppa === hikiko is now known as hikiko|ln === hikiko|ln is now known as hikiko [11:44] pitti, wooot [12:11] heya all. [12:12] attente: if there's a mir backend refresh needed for gtk 3.20.6, let's have it please [12:12] hey Sweet5hark1! [12:12] seb128: so in the gnome-calculator app (which I happily copied), how are we planning to use gtk3? [12:13] s/gtk3/gtk3 themes/ [12:13] Laney: heya! [12:13] what's up homie [12:14] do we want to use the theme from the host env? or not? And if we do the former, how should that work? [12:15] hey Sweet5hark1, good afternoon to you! [12:15] Sweet5hark1, that's a tricky one [12:16] Because someone tried a (now well-contained) libreoffice with gtk3 on Ubuntu Mate and surprisingly the confined LibreOffice doesnt find any Ambient-MATE theme in the container ... [12:16] "surprisingly" [12:16] right [12:16] you need a theme corresponding to the gtk version [12:16] * Laney kills self once again [12:16] that's the issue [12:16] can't use the host theme [12:17] ah so we bundle all gtk theme that ever were in the snap? [12:17] because you snap might bundle gtk3.20 [12:17] but xenial is 3.18 [12:17] and gtk theme are not compatibles between versions [12:17] the plan is rather to have the theme part of the platform snap (when we get those) [12:18] but it means if libreoffice uses the unity platform it gets ambiance even on other desktops [12:18] things can't plug in to the platform somehow? [12:18] things using the gnome platform would get adwaita I guess [12:18] Laney, define "platform"? [12:19] platform snap (when we get those) [12:19] I guess we were typing at the same time [12:19] did I already reply to that or is the question slighly different? [12:19] you say the theme will be fixed [12:19] don't see why it has to be like that [12:20] well they are part of the runtime [12:20] where would you ship the theme? [12:20] somewhere that the runtime's gtk will find it [12:20] or would you have an extra "desktop look" snap? [12:20] seb128: k. I think, as there isnt an immediate solution, I ask him to file a bug, so we can discuss the details (and in the meantime its a known issue that we are working on) ... [12:20] Sweet5hark1, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1576300 [12:20] Launchpad bug 1576300 in snapd (Ubuntu) "Has no integration with system icon themes" [Undecided,New] [12:21] same with things like gstreamer plugins, or fonts, or debug symbols [12:21] Laney, well issue is that the defined theme is an user gsetting [12:21] seb128: ah, aweseme! thanks [12:21] no [12:21] fonts are compatible between desktops and os versions [12:21] which makes thing easier [12:22] they still plug in from snaps to the system [12:22] debug symbols have one variant [12:22] right [12:22] but you can't plug to the system for theme [12:22] why not [12:22] running gedit 3.20 with gtk 3.20 bundled on xenial would give you the 3.18 css [12:22] which doesn't work on gtk 3.20 [12:23] i don't see why this is impossible to handle [12:23] unsure what you mean [12:23] if i want debug symbols for a thing in a platform snap you solve it [12:23] it's the same as the theme [12:23] no [12:23] yes [12:23] there is only 1 set of debug symbols for 1 snap [12:23] there is one place to put themes [12:23] it's easy to map those [12:24] but what ships the theme? [12:24] the dbg can be generated from the snap so it's easy [12:24] they are in the store [12:24] but whose' job is it to ship the theme? [12:24] a theme author [12:24] that would work [12:24] so it would be user connect to install/connect the right theme [12:24] ? [12:25] user job to* [12:25] or it comes preinstalled, whatever [12:25] well it can't really [12:25] "i am a theme for ubuntu 16.04, gnome 3.18" [12:26] then at install time it's installed in the right place for apps using this to get it [12:26] it can't [12:26] like I'm installing gedit 3.24 on my xenial under unity [12:26] it fetches ambiance 3.24 and connect it [12:26] all good [12:26] then you come and log into your fluxbox session on my machine [12:26] and start gedit [12:27] what happens? [12:27] or xubuntu session let's say [12:27] they have their own theme [12:27] what happens right now? [12:27] on debs [12:27] themes are part of the host [12:27] host/desktop [12:27] how do you get them? [12:27] they come with the desktop [12:27] because... [12:27] but they only support the gtk version of that serie [12:27] someone wrote the theme and shipped it [12:27] right [12:28] so.... [12:28] shrug [12:28] unsure how to explain that better [12:28] currently we know that host system and apps are on the same gkt version for ever [12:28] it makes easy to ship the appropriate theme [12:29] in the new world we would need to ship all the existing themes for all the existing gtk versions [12:29] of course [12:29] but the themes can express which platforms they work on [12:29] yeah, but the issue is what I described before [12:30] that's actually what we generally do not have with deb themes [12:30] as an Unity user I install gedit 3.24 on xenial with ambiance 3.24 [12:30] what would you expect to happen if somebody logs into a xubuntu session and start gedit on the same box [12:30] at which point is greybird 3.24 installed [12:31] snappy knows which themes you want and installs those for new platforms if they are available [12:31] expect it doesn't [12:31] themes are by user preferences [12:31] you asked what I expect to happen [12:31] and snappy is a system level service [12:31] and even if my scenario snappy is used once when I install gedit [12:31] is greybird already installed in any snap? [12:32] no [12:32] then how on earth can you solve this? [12:32] conjour out of thin air which themes you might want? [12:32] well we are designing the system [12:32] so for the purpose of the exerice the themes are snapped [12:32] but still I install gedit 3.24 from snappy on unity [12:32] it's smart and gives me ambiance 3.24 [12:33] now I apt-get install xubuntu without touching snappy [12:33] only because that is the default theme [12:33] that's where it gets tricky [12:33] no [12:33] well you could say because it's the desktop I use [12:33] I'm on xubuntu xenial and install gedit 3.24 [12:33] the software UI grabs greybird 3.24 for me and connect it [12:33] all good [12:33] until my sister logs into her unity session [12:34] and see she has gedit looking like xubuntu [12:34] or installing gedit 3.24 could pull in all the world existing gtk 3.24 themes [12:34] seb128: i proposed (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=769302) a fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/1564375 [12:34] Gnome bug 769302 in Desktop "Desktop margins do not scale on high-dpi setups." [Minor,New] [12:34] Launchpad bug 1564375 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "Unity should take display scaling into account to avoid placement of desktop icons under launcher" [Medium,In progress] [12:34] which is the only way I could see that to work [12:35] lol [12:35] andyrock, great [12:35] do you want me to build a debian patch for Y? [12:35] you're saying that all themes on the system have to be installed for all platforms [12:35] so do that [12:35] here is your 3GB gedit download [12:35] yeah that's the issue [12:35] I don't see a clean/proper solution to that [12:35] I think we are going to loose platform visual integration [12:35] same as on windows [12:35] apps are going to come with their upstream look [12:36] which is going to be the same on any OS or desktop env [12:36] they are going to have 1 theme bundled and enforced [12:36] * ogra_ doesnt think we'll do, but i also think it is waaaay to early to bother about that beyod not having the visuals suck [12:37] the other "easy" option is to have each desktop providing its platform [12:37] seb128: maybe you missed it... :) do you want me to build a debian patch for Y (and X)? [12:37] so gedit 3.24 would connect to the GNOME platform if you are on gnome-shell and that includes adwaita [12:37] it's hard because you constructed a mixed deb/snap world [12:37] which implies some kind of bridge [12:37] or to the UNity one unity that includes ambiance [12:37] you need a theme interface (provided either by your classic desktop or by a theme snap) that does the right bind mounts to the right places and bends the right env vars [12:38] Laney, I didn't "construct" that world but I'm living in it, that's basically what we have on xenial today [12:38] I'm not saying we can't design a better solution in all snap world [12:38] as much as we constructed the problem :) [12:39] seb128, i dont think it matters if it is all-snap or not [12:39] well connecting to the right theme is easy [12:39] ensuring the right theme is installing is less [12:39] the snap shouldnt need to care who provides the slot it connects its plug to [12:39] it matters because you have to get it installed [12:40] well, in an all-snap env you now have seed.yaml ... [12:40] one way would be to have each theme having its snap [12:40] where you can list the default snaps installed in the image [12:40] right [12:41] and having upstream supporting all versions of gtk [12:41] or have bundles [12:41] and playing catchup [12:41] those things are requirements [12:41] you need snap for theme for platform version [12:41] then some way to keep the right ones installed [12:42] the issue is that they might not even exist [12:42] greybird 3.24 might not be available at the time you snap gedit 3.24 [12:42] thats what your seed yaml is for in all-snap ... and in classic your desktop can provide it dynamically [12:42] that's correct [12:42] the system would need to track it [12:42] that's solvable but not easily :-/ [12:43] need more mechanism that for fonts or dbg [12:43] well, your interface backend can care [12:43] the backend can only match things that are available [12:43] your snap only sees the slot to plug into [12:43] sure [12:43] like as said at the time gedit 3.24 comes out we might not have an ambiance 3.24 compatible css [12:44] so you have i.e. a gtk-themes-green snap ... that ships a tool to select bright or dark or yellowish greens ... [12:44] the app only connects to the slot [12:44] your setup happens on the backend side of the interface [12:45] which is either in your classic desktop or comes with the theme snap [12:45] your app doesnt have to care [12:45] right [12:45] i should hope the apps don't care at all about the theme [12:45] we "just" need to snap each theme and figure a way to autoinstall the right snaps depending on the available environments on your mahcine [12:46] then to connect to the right slot [12:46] though are snaps having a mount/instance by user? [12:47] like if seb uses gedit on Unity and robert on xubuntu on the same machine and they need to connect to different slots? [12:50] we have a way [12:50] in the all-snap world there is the seed.yaml now ... thats in your image [12:50] and lists what snaps have to be preinstalled [12:50] in the non all-snap world we have a working mechanism already (debs) [12:50] woha. I got a _lot_ of bang for the buck out of seb128 and Laney with that one innocent question. [12:50] lol [12:50] can of worms! [12:51] ogra_, the issue not that, the issue is that the snap/slot you want to connect to depends of the active session [12:51] * Laney hits a button [12:51] so 2 users logged in at the same time might need the same snap connected to different themes [12:53] seb128, ah, not sure our design takes sessions into account yet ... but i could imagine we can add it and have a session-theme-interface that takes this into account [12:53] yeah [12:53] thats actually a jamie question :) [12:53] in any case not going to work tomorrow [12:53] one better bundles all the themes he/she cares about today [12:54] i doubt anyone expects this to work tomorrow :) [12:54] then you don't know me AT ALL [12:54] THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE [12:54] what i personally expect today is to have my snaps not look like win95 [12:54] pretty sure the raleigh theme is dead these days [12:54] what i expect tomorrow is definitely more [12:54] so you get adwaita :) [12:54] which is actually nice [12:55] but there is still so much changing that i dont thinnk we can nail it right now [13:21] * Laney quivers [13:31] Laney: did you already upload? i think anpok still has some patches we could refresh with, but they're not upstream yet [13:33] attente: yes, but we can followup [13:33] get them committed ;-) [13:34] seems like some people are looking a gtk on mir, duflu filed some bugs today [13:34] Laney: they probably will be committed, do you want to take them as-is anyways? [13:34] nice to see work ongoing there :-) [13:34] it's these ones: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768138 [13:34] Gnome bug 768138 in Backend: Mir "Update the GDK-Mir backend to fix a few problems" [Normal,New] [13:35] attente: up to you [13:35] ideally I would prefer cherry-picks, but you da man [13:36] seems like you still have some outstanding questions [13:36] ruh roh [13:36] gtk2 fails its arch-only build [13:36] * Laney re-merges === alan_g_ is now known as alan_g [14:02] the cpu usage graph in gnome-system-monitor is mesmerising in "stacked area chart" mode [14:23] hum, I wonder if that's the first Ubuntu cycle where I might not upgrade my main machine to the unstable serie [14:27] seb128: hah, that's comforting to hear :) [14:27] :-) [14:27] hey ochosi! how are you? [14:28] hey :) good good [14:28] now that my theme has been ported to SASS and is ready for gtk3.20 i sleep much better [14:28] it was a bit of work, but less than i anticipated [14:28] i read your funny conversation on snaps and themes just now [14:28] this will be fun [14:29] * ochosi should use the word "fun" less often... [14:29] i agree with Laney though that applications shouldn't care about themes *at all* [14:29] also, you can install one gtk theme and use it for multiple gtk3 versions [14:29] at least that should work with gtk>=3.20 [14:30] so you keep a gtk-3.0 and a gtk-3.20 in the theme folder and the correct one gets loaded by the application [14:30] "fun" indeed :-) [14:30] this could simplify your problem a bit [14:30] right [14:31] the issue is if you download a random theme from internet and install to ~/.theme or whatever it's going to work fine for your deb based env [14:31] but not for your snaps [14:31] but not a lot we can do that [14:31] hm, why again? [14:31] that->there [14:31] (sry if i didn't understand that part when reading the history) [14:31] is that a permission issue? [14:31] no [14:32] but let's say I'm on xenial and I download winxplike for gtk 3.18 and install that in ~/.themes and make it my unity theme [14:32] then a few months later I install gedit 3.24 snap [14:32] how would gedit look like winxplike [14:33] the .themes is probably not going to be compatible with the bundled gtk from the snap [14:33] and there is no way the system can know how to download a gtk3.24 version of that theme for you [14:35] well [14:35] that's sort of what i intended to say above [14:36] if you have a theme that works for gtk-3.18, gtk-3.20 etc it can ship all of that in the same tarball and you can have it installed in parallel [14:36] so ofc if a theme doesnt support gtk3.24 then you're in a mess, but that's *always* the same [14:36] right [14:37] i agree it's less easy to install gedit3.20 on xenial now [14:37] except that currently Ubuntu is a working set [14:37] right [14:37] but that's the main difference [14:37] Ubuntu doesn't provide currently a way to install a version of apps which isn't compatible with your theme [14:37] so it's an issue we don't have [14:37] yeah, but if you maintain your theme properly it will be backward compatible and work with older gtk version snaps as well [14:37] you just have to always be in sync with adwaita [14:37] THAT CAN'T BE HARD [14:37] :D [14:38] :-) [14:38] until gtk4 [14:38] or whatever :p [14:39] :D [14:39] exactly [14:39] that's a problem of the snap concept itself [14:39] a distro release is a matching set. [14:40] a distro release with snaps is a rag rug. [14:42] Laney, I've added the affected MATE packages to LP: #1593048 [14:42] Launchpad bug 1593048 in ubuntu-themes (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-themes should support GTK 3.20" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1593048 [14:43] right [14:43] I just uploaded mate-themes-3.20.10-0ubuntu1 to yakkety. [14:43] I'll prepare a new ubuntu-mate-artwork package on Monday/Tuesday next week. [14:44]