[00:59] <qengho> Howdy, y'all!
[00:59] <jbicha> qengho: mornin'
[01:30] <qengho> jbicha: where are you these days?
[01:30] <jbicha> S of Tampa, FL
[01:32] <jbicha> so, not morning here :)
[01:32] <jbicha> I just didn't want you to be lonely like yesterday so I said hi this time
[01:33] <sarnold> <3
[01:37] <qengho> <3
[01:38] <qengho> jbicha: I'm back in CFL in 5 days.
[01:41] <qengho> jbicha_: I'm back in CFL in 5 days.
[01:47] <jbicha> qengho: cool, that's quite a time zone shift
[01:55] <qengho> jbicha: It's an entire π out of phase.
[01:58] <jbicha> it's cool that you wouldn't have to adjust an old-school analog clock/watch for it
[05:00] <hikiko> Hello
[05:09] <jbicha> hi
[07:19] <seb128> good morning desktopers
[07:59] <willcooke> morning all
[08:02] <andyrock> morning all
[08:02] <Laney> hey ho
[08:05] <mpt> “A new version of Ubuntu is available. Would you like to upgrade?”
[08:06]  * mpt tries to click a button in the dialog, but it jumps from the center of the screen to the top left corner
[08:06]  * mpt tries again, but a moment too soon, the dialog disappears altogether
[08:07] <seb128> hey willcooke andyrock Laney
[08:08] <seb128> mpt, did it crash? :-( was that on trusty?
[08:11] <Laney> hey seb128
[08:12] <Laney> how's it going?
[08:12] <seb128> Laney, happy friday! how are you today? how is rainy u.k?
[08:12] <seb128> going well
[08:12] <pitti> morning Laney!
[08:12] <seb128> glad that it's friday ;-)
[08:12] <seb128> though still a busy todolist for the day
[08:13] <Laney> hey pitti!
[08:13] <Laney> I am crippled today
[08:13] <pitti> Laney: uh, what happened? climbing?
[08:13] <Laney> yeah
[08:13] <Laney> it was weird though
[08:13] <Laney> I was just doing a climb and then managed to ruin my neck
[08:13] <Laney> and it's quite bad today
[08:13] <Laney> maybe pinched a nerve or so
[08:13] <pitti> urgh
[08:14]  * Laney is on ibuprofen
[08:14] <willcooke> :((
[08:14] <pitti> .. and I just wanted to ask you whether you could fill in for me during my vac..
[08:15] <Laney> did you know that ibuprofen was discovered in nottingham?
[08:15] <Laney> #funfacts
[08:15] <Laney> fill in in what way?
[08:15] <Laney> probably not at basketball
[08:15] <Laney> but in other ways, sure ;-)
[08:15] <pitti> Laney: discovered just for these crazy climbers? :-)
[08:16]  * seb128 steps up for taking care of that daily icecream scoop
[08:16] <pitti> Laney: for keeping an eye on the autopkgtest machinery
[08:16] <pitti> seb128: that's the hardest tasks of all!
[08:16] <seb128> indeed!
[08:16] <seb128> we didn't even manage to get ice cream once while you were here
[08:16] <pitti> well, we did have the one you grabbed on Sat
[08:16] <seb128> I went yesterday evening though :p
[08:17] <seb128> right
[08:17] <seb128> I'm glad I did ;-)
[08:18] <Laney> pitti: ah yeah, sure
[08:18] <flexiondotorg> o/
[08:18] <Laney> the queues are looking large
[08:18] <pitti> Laney: I'll be off from next Wed for 1.5 weeks
[08:18] <pitti> Laney: yeah, moar KDE goodness
[08:18] <seb128> Laney, I hope you are going to be better for the w.e and that it's not going to ruin your w.e plans
[08:18] <pitti> Laney: they went over the Qt 5.6 and Perl humps yesterday
[08:18] <pitti> Laney: I messed up the setup-testbed script which caused a bunch of failures this morning, but TTBOMK everything is running smoothly now
[08:19] <pitti> Laney: other than that I renamed lcy01.rc to *.disabled to avoid getting spammed by  those mails every 6 hours
[08:19] <Laney> okay
[08:19] <pitti> apparently reviving lcy01 is a bigger task
[08:19] <Laney> I wonder what happened to it
[08:20] <pitti> the disk of the DB server had been brittle for a while already, and apparently it now died completely
[08:20] <pitti> R.I.P. mysql
[08:21] <pitti> seb128, Laney: I hope systemd 231-1 will land by tomorrow, then I could land gnome-session to enable systemd sessions in y; problem is, that's right before my holidays, so if anything goes seriously wrong could you revert the Exec= line back to gnome-session in case?
[08:22] <mpt> seb128, it came back eventually … It was an example of the mistake of letting windows appear before the window manager has launched
[08:24] <Laney> pitti: Alright, let's do it
[08:24] <Laney> I'm going to upload gtk today too (but block it for a bit more in proposed)
[08:24] <Laney> crack day
[08:24] <Laney> flexiondotorg: you ready with your theme?
[08:24] <flexiondotorg> Laney, close.
[08:25] <flexiondotorg> Perhaps close enough for not total breakage.
[08:25] <Laney> 'k
[08:25] <pitti> Laney: that's the spirit :)
[08:25] <flexiondotorg> When are you planning to land GTK 3.20?
[08:25] <pitti> Laney: if/once I land it, I'll mail u-devel@ with contingency options
[08:25] <flexiondotorg> Ah, today.
[08:26] <seb128> mpt, ah ok, that explains why it moved I was wondering
[08:26] <Laney> flexiondotorg: I'll block it for a bit though, there's still some unity-greeter problems that I would like to fix beforehand
[08:26] <flexiondotorg> OK, no problem.
[08:26] <Laney> Just want to get a start on having things built
[08:26] <pitti> seb128: actually, I see no reason to not have daily ice cream on our bike trip along the Danube, so sorry, this task isn't available :-P
[08:27] <Laney> Also let everybody get their themes & stuff lined up
[08:27] <flexiondotorg> WHat we have now will prevent total breakage, but some bits still need work.
[08:27] <Laney> Got a while until the next milestone anyway
[08:27] <seb128> Laney, do you have bug #1548425 on your list? binding api changed it seems, it might be worth checking the rdepends before letting it in
[08:27] <flexiondotorg> That is for Ubuntu MATE Themes. But, I'm happy to move.
[08:27] <flexiondotorg> I also need to upload mate-themes for 3.20. They are 100% complete.
[08:28] <seb128> pitti, bah! fair enough, going to fork it and do is as well anyway :p
[08:28]  * pitti ^5s seb128
[08:28]  * seb128 ^5s pitti
[08:30] <Laney> seb128: no, thx
[08:30] <seb128> yw!
[08:47] <willcooke> Laney, thanks for the suggestions to the apt issue.
[08:51] <Laney> np!
[09:16] <willcooke> ahh, who remembers Summer 2016?
[09:18] <duflu> willcooke: Definitely me. Had two months of it in Jan-Feb. Had another month of it in USA. And will have another month starting Dec :)
[09:19] <popey> willcooke: I slept through it
[09:19] <duflu> Actually to be fair, summer in Oz is longer than 3 months
[09:24] <willcooke> :)
[09:31] <popey> willcooke: lets move to oz
[09:31] <willcooke> :D
[09:32] <qengho> It's full of Australians!
[09:32] <qengho> (Intentionally ambiguous tone on that.)
[10:16] <pitti> seb128, Laney: huh, the systemd beast landed in y! so the infra is in place now, awesome
[10:16] <Laney> scary!
[10:16] <pitti> I'll still wait with gnome-session until Monday though
[10:17] <pitti> first, because Friday and second because new systemd upstream version, let's keep the bugs apart :)
[10:17]  * pitti cleans up the ppa
[11:44] <seb128> pitti, wooot
[12:11] <Sweet5hark1> heya all.
[12:12] <Laney> attente: if there's a mir backend refresh needed for gtk 3.20.6, let's have it please
[12:12] <Laney> hey Sweet5hark1!
[12:12] <Sweet5hark1> seb128: so in the gnome-calculator app (which I happily copied), how are we planning to use gtk3?
[12:13] <Sweet5hark1> s/gtk3/gtk3 themes/
[12:13] <Sweet5hark1> Laney: heya!
[12:13] <Laney> what's up homie
[12:14] <Sweet5hark1> do we want to use the theme from the host env? or not? And if we do the former, how should that work?
[12:15] <seb128> hey Sweet5hark1, good afternoon to you!
[12:15] <seb128> Sweet5hark1, that's a tricky one
[12:16] <Sweet5hark1> Because someone tried a (now well-contained) libreoffice with gtk3 on Ubuntu Mate and surprisingly the confined LibreOffice doesnt find any Ambient-MATE theme in the container ...
[12:16] <Sweet5hark1> "surprisingly"
[12:16] <seb128> right
[12:16] <Laney> you need a theme corresponding to the gtk version
[12:16]  * Laney kills self once again
[12:16] <seb128> that's the issue
[12:16] <seb128> can't use the host theme
[12:17] <Sweet5hark1> ah so we bundle all gtk theme that ever were in the snap?
[12:17] <seb128> because you snap might bundle gtk3.20
[12:17] <seb128> but xenial is 3.18
[12:17] <seb128> and gtk theme are not compatibles between versions
[12:17] <seb128> the plan is rather to have the theme part of the platform snap (when we get those)
[12:18] <seb128> but it means if libreoffice uses the unity platform it gets ambiance even on other desktops
[12:18] <Laney> things can't plug in to the platform somehow?
[12:18] <seb128> things using the gnome platform would get adwaita I guess
[12:18] <seb128> Laney, define "platform"?
[12:19] <Laney> platform snap (when we get those)
[12:19] <seb128> I guess we were typing at the same time
[12:19] <seb128> did I already reply to that or is the question slighly different?
[12:19] <Laney> you say the theme will be fixed
[12:19] <Laney> don't see why it has to be like that
[12:20] <seb128> well they are part of the runtime
[12:20] <seb128> where would you ship the theme?
[12:20] <Laney> somewhere that the runtime's gtk will find it
[12:20] <seb128> or would you have an extra "desktop look" snap?
[12:20] <Sweet5hark1> seb128: k. I think, as there isnt an immediate solution, I ask him to file a bug, so we can discuss the details (and in the meantime its a known issue that we are working on) ...
[12:20] <seb128> Sweet5hark1, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snapd/+bug/1576300
[12:21] <Laney> same with things like gstreamer plugins, or fonts, or debug symbols
[12:21] <seb128> Laney, well issue is that the defined theme is an user gsetting
[12:21] <Sweet5hark1> seb128: ah, aweseme! thanks
[12:21] <seb128> no
[12:21] <seb128> fonts are compatible between desktops and os versions
[12:21] <seb128> which makes thing easier
[12:22] <Laney> they still plug in from snaps to the system
[12:22] <seb128> debug symbols have one variant
[12:22] <seb128> right
[12:22] <seb128> but you can't plug to the system for theme
[12:22] <Laney> why not
[12:22] <seb128> running gedit 3.20 with gtk 3.20 bundled on xenial would give you the 3.18 css
[12:22] <seb128> which doesn't work on gtk 3.20
[12:23] <Laney> i don't see why this is impossible to handle
[12:23] <seb128> unsure what you mean
[12:23] <Laney> if i want debug symbols for a thing in a platform snap you solve it
[12:23] <Laney> it's the same as the theme
[12:23] <seb128> no
[12:23] <Laney> yes
[12:23] <seb128> there is only 1 set of debug symbols for 1 snap
[12:23] <Laney> there is one place to put themes
[12:23] <seb128> it's easy to map those
[12:24] <seb128> but what ships the theme?
[12:24] <seb128> the dbg can be generated from the snap so it's easy
[12:24] <Laney> they are in the store
[12:24] <seb128> but whose' job is it to ship the theme?
[12:24] <Laney> a theme author
[12:24] <seb128> that would work
[12:24] <seb128> so it would be user connect to install/connect the right theme
[12:24] <seb128> ?
[12:25] <seb128> user job to*
[12:25] <Laney> or it comes preinstalled, whatever
[12:25] <seb128> well it can't really
[12:25] <Laney> "i am a theme for ubuntu 16.04, gnome 3.18"
[12:26] <Laney> then at install time it's installed in the right place for apps using this to get it
[12:26] <seb128> it can't
[12:26] <seb128> like I'm installing gedit 3.24 on my xenial under unity
[12:26] <seb128> it fetches ambiance 3.24 and connect it
[12:26] <seb128> all good
[12:26] <seb128> then you come and log into your fluxbox session on my machine
[12:26] <seb128> and start gedit
[12:27] <seb128> what happens?
[12:27] <seb128> or xubuntu session let's say
[12:27] <seb128> they have their own theme
[12:27] <Laney> what happens right now?
[12:27] <Laney> on debs
[12:27] <seb128> themes are part of the host
[12:27] <seb128> host/desktop
[12:27] <Laney> how do you get them?
[12:27] <seb128> they come with the desktop
[12:27] <Laney> because...
[12:27] <seb128> but they only support the gtk version of that serie
[12:27] <Laney> someone wrote the theme and shipped it
[12:27] <seb128> right
[12:28] <Laney> so....
[12:28] <seb128> shrug
[12:28] <seb128> unsure how to explain that better
[12:28] <seb128> currently we know that host system and apps are on the same gkt version for ever
[12:28] <seb128> it makes easy to ship the appropriate theme
[12:29] <seb128> in the new world we would need to ship all the existing themes for all the existing gtk versions
[12:29] <Laney> of course
[12:29] <Laney> but the themes can express which platforms they work on
[12:29] <seb128> yeah, but the issue is what I described before
[12:30] <Laney> that's actually what we generally do not have with deb themes
[12:30] <seb128> as an Unity user I install gedit 3.24 on xenial with ambiance 3.24
[12:30] <seb128> what would you expect to happen if somebody logs into a xubuntu session and start gedit on the same box
[12:30] <seb128> at which point is greybird 3.24 installed
[12:31] <Laney> snappy knows which themes you want and installs those for new platforms if they are available
[12:31] <seb128> expect it doesn't
[12:31] <seb128> themes are by user preferences
[12:31] <Laney> you asked what I expect to happen
[12:31] <seb128> and snappy is a system level service
[12:31] <seb128> and even if my scenario snappy is used once when I install gedit
[12:31] <Laney> is greybird already installed in any snap?
[12:32] <seb128> no
[12:32] <Laney> then how on earth can you solve this?
[12:32] <Laney> conjour out of thin air which themes you might want?
[12:32] <seb128> well we are designing the system
[12:32] <seb128> so for the purpose of the exerice the themes are snapped
[12:32] <seb128> but still I install gedit 3.24 from snappy on unity
[12:32] <seb128> it's smart and gives me ambiance 3.24
[12:33] <seb128> now I apt-get install xubuntu without touching snappy
[12:33] <Laney> only because that is the default theme
[12:33] <seb128> that's where it gets tricky
[12:33] <seb128> no
[12:33] <seb128> well you could say because it's the desktop I use
[12:33] <seb128> I'm on xubuntu xenial and install gedit 3.24
[12:33] <seb128> the software UI grabs greybird 3.24 for me and connect it
[12:33] <seb128> all good
[12:33] <seb128> until my sister logs into her unity session
[12:34] <seb128> and see she has gedit looking like xubuntu
[12:34] <seb128> or installing gedit 3.24 could pull in all the world existing gtk 3.24 themes
[12:34] <andyrock> seb128: i proposed (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=769302) a fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/1564375
[12:34] <seb128> which is the only way I could see that to work
[12:35] <ogra_> lol
[12:35] <seb128> andyrock, great
[12:35] <andyrock> do you want me to build a debian patch for Y?
[12:35] <Laney> you're saying that all themes on the system have to be installed for all platforms
[12:35] <Laney> so do that
[12:35] <ogra_> here is your 3GB gedit download
[12:35] <seb128> yeah that's the issue
[12:35] <seb128> I don't see a clean/proper solution to that
[12:35] <seb128> I think we are going to loose platform visual integration
[12:35] <seb128> same as on windows
[12:35] <seb128> apps are going to come with their upstream look
[12:36] <seb128> which is going to be the same on any OS or desktop env
[12:36] <seb128> they are going to have 1 theme bundled and enforced
[12:36]  * ogra_ doesnt think we'll do, but i also think it is waaaay to early to bother about that beyod not having the visuals suck
[12:37] <seb128> the other "easy" option is to have each desktop providing its platform
[12:37] <andyrock> seb128: maybe you missed it... :) do you want me to build a debian patch for Y (and X)?
[12:37] <seb128> so gedit 3.24 would connect to the GNOME platform if you are on gnome-shell and that includes adwaita
[12:37] <Laney> it's hard because you constructed a mixed deb/snap world
[12:37] <Laney> which implies some kind of bridge
[12:37] <seb128> or to the UNity one unity that includes ambiance
[12:37] <ogra_> you need a theme interface (provided either by your classic desktop or by a theme snap) that does the right bind mounts to the right places and bends the right env vars
[12:38] <seb128> Laney, I didn't "construct" that world but I'm living in it, that's basically what we have on xenial today
[12:38] <seb128> I'm not saying we can't design a better solution in all snap world
[12:38] <Laney> as much as we constructed the problem :)
[12:39] <ogra_> seb128, i dont think it matters if it is all-snap or not
[12:39] <seb128> well connecting to the right theme is easy
[12:39] <seb128> ensuring the right theme is installing is less
[12:39] <ogra_> the snap shouldnt need to care who provides the slot it connects its plug to
[12:39] <Laney> it matters because you have to get it installed
[12:40] <ogra_> well, in an all-snap env you now have seed.yaml ...
[12:40] <seb128> one way would be to have each theme having its snap
[12:40] <ogra_> where you can list the default snaps installed in the image
[12:40] <ogra_> right
[12:41] <seb128> and having upstream supporting all versions of gtk
[12:41] <ogra_> or have bundles
[12:41] <seb128> and playing catchup
[12:41] <Laney> those things are requirements
[12:41] <Laney> you need snap for theme for platform version
[12:41] <Laney> then some way to keep the right ones installed
[12:42] <seb128> the issue is that they might not even exist
[12:42] <seb128> greybird 3.24 might not be available at the time you snap gedit 3.24
[12:42] <ogra_> thats what your seed yaml is for in all-snap ... and in classic your desktop can provide it dynamically
[12:42] <Laney> that's correct
[12:42] <Laney> the system would need to track it
[12:42] <seb128> that's solvable but not easily :-/
[12:43] <seb128> need more mechanism that for fonts or dbg
[12:43] <ogra_> well, your interface backend can care
[12:43] <seb128> the backend can only match things that are available
[12:43] <ogra_> your snap only sees the slot to plug into
[12:43] <ogra_> sure
[12:43] <seb128> like as said at the time gedit 3.24 comes out we might not have an ambiance 3.24 compatible css
[12:44] <ogra_> so you have i.e. a gtk-themes-green snap ... that ships a tool to select bright or dark or yellowish greens ...
[12:44] <ogra_> the app only connects to the slot
[12:44] <ogra_> your setup happens on the backend side of the interface
[12:45] <ogra_> which is either in your classic desktop or comes with the theme snap
[12:45] <ogra_> your app doesnt have to care
[12:45] <seb128> right
[12:45] <Laney> i should hope the apps don't care at all about the theme
[12:45] <seb128> we "just" need to snap each theme and figure a way to autoinstall the right snaps depending on the available environments on your mahcine
[12:46] <seb128> then to connect to the right slot
[12:46] <seb128> though are snaps having a mount/instance by user?
[12:47] <seb128> like if seb uses gedit on Unity and robert on xubuntu on the same machine and they need to connect to different slots?
[12:50] <ogra_> we have a way
[12:50] <ogra_> in the all-snap world there is the seed.yaml now ... thats in your image
[12:50] <ogra_> and lists what snaps have to be preinstalled
[12:50] <ogra_> in the non all-snap world we have a working mechanism already (debs)
[12:50] <Sweet5hark1> woha. I got a _lot_ of bang for the buck out of seb128 and Laney with that one innocent question.
[12:50] <seb128> lol
[12:50] <Laney> can of worms!
[12:51] <seb128> ogra_, the issue not that, the issue is that the snap/slot you want to connect to depends of the active session
[12:51]  * Laney hits a button
[12:51] <seb128> so 2 users logged in at the same time might need the same snap connected to different themes
[12:53] <ogra_> seb128, ah, not sure our design takes sessions into account yet ... but i could imagine we can add it and have a session-theme-interface that takes this into account
[12:53] <seb128> yeah
[12:53] <ogra_> thats actually a jamie question :)
[12:53] <seb128> in any case not going to work tomorrow
[12:53] <seb128> one better bundles all the themes he/she cares about today
[12:54] <ogra_> i doubt anyone expects this to work tomorrow :)
[12:54] <Laney> then you don't know me AT ALL
[12:54] <Laney> THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE
[12:54] <ogra_> what i personally expect today is to have my snaps not look like win95
[12:54] <Laney> pretty sure the raleigh theme is dead these days
[12:54] <ogra_> what i expect tomorrow is definitely more
[12:54] <Laney> so you get adwaita :)
[12:54] <Laney> which is actually nice
[12:55] <ogra_> but there is still so much changing that i dont thinnk we can nail it right now
[13:21]  * Laney quivers
[13:31] <attente> Laney: did you already upload? i think anpok still has some patches we could refresh with, but they're not upstream yet
[13:33] <Laney> attente: yes, but we can followup
[13:33] <Laney> get them committed ;-)
[13:34] <seb128> seems like some people are looking a gtk on mir, duflu filed some bugs today
[13:34] <attente> Laney: they probably will be committed, do you want to take them as-is anyways?
[13:34] <seb128> nice to see work ongoing there :-)
[13:34] <attente> it's these ones: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=768138
[13:35] <Laney> attente: up to you
[13:35] <Laney> ideally I would prefer cherry-picks, but you da man
[13:36] <Laney> seems like you still have some outstanding questions
[13:36] <Laney> ruh roh
[13:36] <Laney> gtk2 fails its arch-only build
[13:36]  * Laney re-merges
[14:02] <Laney> the cpu usage graph in gnome-system-monitor is mesmerising in "stacked area chart" mode
[14:23] <seb128> hum, I wonder if that's the first Ubuntu cycle where I might not upgrade my main machine to the unstable serie
[14:27] <ochosi> seb128: hah, that's comforting to hear :)
[14:27] <seb128> :-)
[14:27] <seb128> hey ochosi! how are you?
[14:28] <ochosi> hey :) good good
[14:28] <ochosi> now that my theme has been ported to SASS and is ready for gtk3.20 i sleep much better
[14:28] <ochosi> it was a bit of work, but less than i anticipated
[14:28] <ochosi> i read your funny conversation on snaps and themes just now
[14:28] <ochosi> this will be fun
[14:29]  * ochosi should use the word "fun" less often...
[14:29] <ochosi> i agree with Laney though that applications shouldn't care about themes *at all*
[14:29] <ochosi> also, you can install one gtk theme and use it for multiple gtk3 versions
[14:29] <ochosi> at least that should work with gtk>=3.20
[14:30] <ochosi> so you keep a gtk-3.0 and a gtk-3.20 in the theme folder and the correct one gets loaded by the application
[14:30] <seb128> "fun" indeed :-)
[14:30] <ochosi> this could simplify your problem a bit
[14:30] <seb128> right
[14:31] <seb128> the issue is if you download a random theme from internet and install to ~/.theme or whatever it's going to work fine for your deb based env
[14:31] <seb128> but not for your snaps
[14:31] <seb128> but not a lot we can do that
[14:31] <ochosi> hm, why again?
[14:31] <seb128> that->there
[14:31] <ochosi> (sry if i didn't understand that part when reading the history)
[14:31] <ochosi> is that a permission issue?
[14:31] <seb128> no
[14:32] <seb128> but let's say I'm on xenial and I download winxplike for gtk 3.18 and install that in ~/.themes and make it my unity theme
[14:32] <seb128> then a few months later I install gedit 3.24 snap
[14:32] <seb128> how would gedit look like winxplike
[14:33] <seb128> the .themes is probably not going to be compatible with the bundled gtk from the snap
[14:33] <seb128> and there is no way the system can know how to download a gtk3.24 version of that theme for you
[14:35] <ochosi> well
[14:35] <ochosi> that's sort of what i intended to say above
[14:36] <ochosi> if you have a theme that works for gtk-3.18, gtk-3.20 etc it can ship all of that in the same tarball and you can have it installed in parallel
[14:36] <ochosi> so ofc if a theme doesnt support gtk3.24 then you're in a mess, but that's *always* the same
[14:36] <seb128> right
[14:37] <ochosi> i agree it's less easy to install gedit3.20 on xenial now
[14:37] <seb128> except that currently Ubuntu is a working set
[14:37] <seb128> right
[14:37] <ochosi> but that's the main difference
[14:37] <seb128> Ubuntu doesn't provide currently a way to install a version of apps which isn't compatible with your theme
[14:37] <seb128> so it's an issue we don't have
[14:37] <ochosi> yeah, but if you maintain your theme properly it will be backward compatible and work with older gtk version snaps as well
[14:37] <ochosi> you just have to always be in sync with adwaita
[14:37] <ochosi> THAT CAN'T BE HARD
[14:37] <ochosi> :D
[14:38] <seb128> :-)
[14:38] <seb128> until gtk4
[14:38] <seb128> or whatever :p
[14:39] <ochosi> :D
[14:39] <ochosi> exactly
[14:39] <ochosi> that's a problem of the snap concept itself
[14:39] <ochosi> a distro release is a matching set.
[14:40] <ochosi> a distro release with snaps is a rag rug.
[14:42] <flexiondotorg> Laney, I've added the affected MATE packages to LP: #1593048
[14:43] <seb128> right
[14:43] <flexiondotorg> I just uploaded mate-themes-3.20.10-0ubuntu1 to yakkety.
[14:43] <flexiondotorg> I'll prepare a new ubuntu-mate-artwork package on Monday/Tuesday next week.
[14:44] <flexiondotorg> And you backlog on themes and snaps.
[14:44] <flexiondotorg> Was the point of much discussion last week.
[15:04] <Sweet5hark1> seb128: common just write a dbus service that autotranslates gtk themes between versions, so that the snapped app can ask for whatever it needs</sarc>
[15:04] <seb128> :-)
[15:18] <willcooke> chrrrooooooooome
[15:18] <willcooke> where is my RAM
[15:19] <willcooke> 4 tabs open 2 GB RAM used.
[15:20] <flocculant> willcooke: get more RAM :p
[15:20]  * willcooke waits for s_eb128 to say something about using firefox 
[15:20] <willcooke> flocculant, :)
[15:20] <willcooke> I've got 6GB, that should be plenty
[15:20] <seb128> right you are
[15:21] <flocculant> willcooke: and while you're there - do *you* know anything about the Turn Off Secure Boot installer option - or at least know who I could ask :)
[15:21]  * flocculant has never seen that and is being asked stuffs ... 
[15:22] <willcooke> I don't, but this is the sort of thing davmor2 usually knows about ^
[15:22] <seb128> willcooke, I've firefox open with a bunch of tabs and it uses 300M
[15:22] <seb128> just saying
[15:22] <willcooke> heh
[15:22] <flocculant> willcooke: that was what I was thinking - but he's away :D
[15:22] <seb128> flocculant, what do you want to know?
[15:22] <seb128> cyphermox can probably help you
[15:23] <flocculant> aah yes - good call :)
[15:23] <flocculant> I've just been asked what it actually does - I'm kind of assuming it does what it says
[15:24] <seb128> I guess so
[15:24] <flocculant> thanks all anyway :)
[15:24] <seb128> yw
[15:24] <flocculant> :)
[15:25] <cyphermox> flocculant: that's largely it, it does what it says
[15:26] <flocculant> cyphermox: okey doke - thanks :)
[15:26] <cyphermox> disabling secure boot validation in shim -- which means that the shim signature (the MS signature, which gets checked by the BIOS directly) will still be verified, but nothing past that
[15:27] <cyphermox> in other words, that's something that only affects Linux if you dual-boot, and you're not touching the rest of the BIOS at all -- but it will affect any distro that uses shim
[15:29] <flocculant> cyphermox: thank you for some explanation - it's an installer option I've never seen
[15:29] <cyphermox> yes, it's new in xenial.
[15:29] <flocculant> I guessed as much :)
[15:30] <flocculant> cyphermox: I guess given I do *most* testing with vm's not something I would see
[15:30] <cyphermox> unless you used an EFI-enabled VM
[15:30] <cyphermox> urgh, speaking of which I need to fix my golden vm
[15:31] <flocculant> :)
[15:31] <flocculant> cyphermox: anyway - thanks for the explantion of that - which I will promptly forget :p
[15:31] <flocculant> weekend started early ;)
[15:32] <cyphermox> ah, nice :)
[15:32] <flocculant> :)
[15:40] <Laney> flocculant: neat
[15:41] <Laney> erm
[15:41] <Laney> fle
[15:41] <Laney> FLE TAB
[15:41] <Laney> FLEEHTOEHSATOAEHTOAHTOAEHTOAEHS
[15:42] <flocculant> Laney: you could try Wimpress instead - ochosi complained about nicks, just after infinity complained about nicks :D
[15:42]  * flocculant is still flocculant 
[15:42] <flocculant> \o/
[15:43] <Laney> #neverchange
[15:43]  * Wimpress is flexiondotorg
[15:43] <flocculant> :)
[15:43] <Laney> YOU
[15:43] <Laney> CHANGE BACK
[15:43] <Wimpress> It is a group nick, so I can change back.
[15:43] <Wimpress> But flocculant and I have been getting some stick.
[15:43] <Laney> what's a group nick?
[15:44] <Wimpress> Freenode can have multiple nicks registered to one identity.
[15:44] <flocculant> Laney: you can has many nicks
[15:44]  * flocculant used to have a bunch
[15:44] <Laney> that's the inverse of how it sounds
[15:44] <flocculant> Laney could be Streety too
[15:44] <Wimpress> https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration
[15:44] <seb128> having multiple personalities? ;-)
[15:45] <flocculant> seb128: can be useful ...
[15:45] <Laney> if only my IRC client tab comlpeted on freenode identifier
[15:45] <flocculant> seb128: especially for Wimpress
[15:45] <flocculant> though infinity won't be able to find him now though
[15:46]  * ochosi is Wimpressed
[15:46] <flocculant> oh my
[15:46] <flocculant> new word \o/
[15:47] <Laney> there's still a wi<tab> collision, by the way :-)
[15:48] <Laney> two letters are not enough
[15:48] <Laney> just ask cjohnston
[15:50] <cyphermox> Laney: I guess now I could merge your style changes in ubiquity and upload?
[15:50] <Wimpress> ochosi, Sadly my teachers at school were all very pleased with themselves when they were "Wimpressed" in my school reports ;-)
[15:51] <Laney> cyphermox: did I version the dependency to 3.20?
[15:51] <Laney> yes
[15:51] <Laney> then I'm happy if you are
[15:51] <cyphermox> yes
[15:52] <Laney> looks like gtk2 -4 builds
[15:52]  * Laney debdiffs and uploads that
[15:52] <cyphermox> how far are we with the other packages?
[15:52] <Laney> [||--------------]
[15:52] <cyphermox> weeee
[15:53] <cyphermox> and everything needs to land together?
[15:53] <Laney> just some things
[15:53] <cyphermox> k
[15:53] <Laney> shit rain, brb, need to rescue clothes
[15:53] <jbicha> arewegtk320yet
[15:53] <cyphermox> meh
[15:54] <cyphermox> I just want to avoid ubiquity sitting in proposed for too long
[15:54] <seb128> did somebody test ubiquity with the new gtk?
[15:54] <seb128> or from backlog I guess Laney did :-)
[15:55] <Laney> indeed
[15:56] <Laney> cyphermox: won't be *too* long, hopefully
[15:58] <cyphermox> I implicitly trust Laney with css changes
[15:58] <Laney> don't
[15:58] <cyphermox> maybe that's my error :)
[15:58] <Laney> yes
[15:58] <cyphermox> it's not like it's likely to crash ubiquity though, it will just look like crap.
[15:59] <Laney> if nothing else, you should be happy with it because I don't want to have to revisit the problem
[15:59] <Laney> :)
[15:59] <Laney> it looked hilarious before
[15:59] <Laney> the progress bars went to their default size
[15:59] <flocculant> cyphermox: I will let you know for sure if it all looks completely bizarre for me :p
[16:00] <flocculant> I guess Laney might want to know as well
[16:00] <Laney> someone should just test the thing
[16:00] <Laney> and then fix it :-)
[16:01] <flocculant> Laney: I guess I'll just say it looks fine then :p
[16:01] <cyphermox> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/16.10.6
[16:02] <Laney> youuuuu
[16:02] <Laney> ok, there's gtk2
[16:02] <Laney> theme time
[16:02] <Laney> don't suppose anyone wants to review that one?
[16:02]  * Laney giggles
[16:02] <cyphermox> what?
[16:14] <attente> is there a trick to pop up the grub 2 menu on the dell xps?
[16:16] <seb128> attente, have shift press after the bios and keep it this way until grub?
[16:16] <attente> seb128: tried that, but no luck
[16:16] <attente> just boots into my bad kernel build
[16:17] <Laney> turn it off while it's booting
[16:17] <Laney> then next time you get grub
[16:17] <Laney> the ghetto method
[16:17] <seb128> I was going to suggest that but then people say I'm using hacks :p
[16:18] <Laney> :D
[16:18] <Laney> i love the seb128 hacks
[16:18] <Laney> they get the job done
[16:18] <seb128> :-)
[16:19] <seb128> attente, you can try to grub-reboot <n>
[16:20] <Laney> also, custom kernel is *such* an attente thing
[16:20] <Laney> bet there was some bisecting involved
[16:20] <attente> lol. ok, some combination of space/esc seemed to do it
[16:20] <seb128> don't mock him, that's the path to greatness
[16:21] <Laney> i might bisect on monday
[16:21] <Laney> to find out what made unity-greeter break
[16:21] <seb128> see :-)
[16:21] <Laney> in this case you can't script it to work with git bisect run though
[16:21] <Laney> that is the ultimate
[16:22] <seb128> yeah, that's magic
[16:23] <seb128> I know p_itti got some systemd regressions figured out like that, script it and let it do its work over the w.e
[16:23] <seb128> come back a day later and have the commit
[16:23] <seb128> talaaa
[16:33] <seb128> k; enough snap debugging for this week
[16:33] <seb128> calling a week there
[16:33] <seb128> have a good w.e everyone!
[16:34] <Laney> night!
[16:59] <Laney> me too, time to go get rained on
[16:59] <Laney> bbbbbbbbbyyyyyyeeeee
[17:02] <willcooke_> ditto
[17:02] <willcooke_> night all
[17:37] <attente> need a new adwaita-icon-theme...
[17:40] <anpok> Laney: attente: will create a new version today.. have to drop one of the changes since there would be a regression with the upcoming 0.24 (unless I can still sneak in fixes into that release)
[17:43] <attente> i guess we also need to remove the 'adwaita-icon-theme (>= ${gnome:Version})' Depends on libgtk-3-common
[18:01] <jbicha> attente: I think that depends is ok
[18:02] <attente> jbicha: i'm concerned about the version, is someone going to package the 3.20 release of a-i-t?
[18:03] <jbicha> attente: yes, it's in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/ubuntu/gtk320 if you need it now
[18:05] <attente> jbicha: ah, ok. but i guess we need 3.20.6 at least. but good to know that it'll be there at some point
[18:06] <jbicha> no it doesn't have to be 3.20.6, 3.20 is fine
[18:07] <attente> oh, really? ok, thanks!