/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/08/11/#kubuntu-devel.txt

ahoneybunvalorie: I talked to yofe and one of the options was using qml/qt quick04:48
ahoneybunas a quick fix for this release04:48
ahoneybunI even added Calligra as an option in my script04:50
ahoneybuneven if I don't use it lol04:50
valorieso it's like a partial port, rather than a full one?04:50
valorieI'd like to start using it04:51
ahoneybunwell we need to port the installer to Qt5 since it is on Qt404:51
valorieI'm not so in love with libreoffice04:51
ahoneybunthat works fine for me04:51
ahoneybunbut it's an option04:51
ahoneybunhttps://github.com/ahoneybun/fresh-install-script04:51
valorieyes04:51
ahoneybunthe port might be a big deal and timely04:51
ahoneybunfor sure would not make it in to yakkety if it was started04:52
ahoneybunmy friend said he would look at it when he has time04:52
valoriewe need to split the package, right?04:52
ahoneybun(he is a developer for a local business that uses his software that is a custom Ubuntu)04:52
ahoneybunit is split04:52
valorieOK04:53
ahoneybunthe installer and slideshow are different04:53
valorieok04:53
ahoneybuntbh I don;t know the whole thing04:53
ahoneybunI know that qtwebkit was dropped in Qt5 or something04:53
ahoneybunso it's not in our repos04:53
ahoneybunour frontend is in Qt4 Python04:53
ahoneybunfrom my understanding anyway04:54
acheronukahoneybun: yes, it's qtwebkit being dropped in the Yakkety pyqt4 packages that is the problem.06:40
acheronukmeans the pyqt4/kde frontend to the installer can't work with those qtwebkit based slides, unless the whole kde/qt installer is ported to pyqt5 which does still support qtwebkit06:42
soee!info libkf5newstuff508:51
ubottulibkf5newstuff5 (source: knewstuff): Support for downloading application assets from the network.. In component universe, is optional. Version 5.22.0-0ubuntu1 (yakkety), package size 217 kB, installed size 823 kB08:51
viphi ho09:14
soeehiho vip09:18
jimarvanheyllo all09:36
jimarvanany news from the front?09:36
acheronukhi :) front what?09:41
acheronukAaron is/was working on getting some slides fixed up for the installer I think...09:42
acheronukPlasma is still stuck in YY. Apps need a rebuild?09:43
soeeomfg ..11:43
soeei have returned screen with bad pixel few days ago, now i bpught new one and after 5 min it has also bad pixel ...!!!!!11:44
mamarleyUgh, bad pixels suck.11:46
mamarleyI seem to have had pretty good luck recently though.  My newer laptop, my two 1920x1080 panels at work, and my two 3840x2160 panels at home all have no stuck or dead pixels.  My first laptop, though, was a disaster.  I had to send it in to get the display replaced twice because of stuck pixels.11:48
soeemamarley: well this one in 29"12:08
soeewith curved screen, IPS matrix etc. i like the design a lot to12:09
soeeLG couldn't fixed it so i'm taking moenyback but they proposed some 34" as a replace but ugly tbh12:10
soeeaccidently posted on support chan: RIO nr 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA-vCAd-3mY12:28
=== Blizzzek is now known as Blizzz
acheronuksoee: eek!12:30
Esokrais 5.7.2 planned to land in 16.10?12:57
Esokrahow to test? shall i use the staging ppa? how far away from landing in the repos is it actually? what needs to be done?12:58
yofelEsokra: it's in yakkety-proposed (stuck in packagekit)12:59
Esokrayofel: oh ... how come proposed is not mentioned in the ubuntu-package search?12:59
yofelno clue..13:00
Esokrawhat do you mean by stuck in packagekit?13:00
yofelwell, it's not a source that people should be using - it's just a technical thing13:00
Esokrawhat does "it's" refer to?13:01
Esokraone thing of special interest, are all kde packages now also built with -fpie as default? because checksec showed me in stock kubuntu 16.10 that pie and relro were disabled for a lot of things ... maybe, because things currently are quite old and have not been rebuilt since the global change in gcc?13:02
Esokrai guess "it's" refers to the proposed repo, i got somehow confused by the word "stuck" ... 13:04
yofelyes, it is proposed. 'stuck' refers to the auto-QA that runs before packages move from proposed to release (the situation is somewhat complex)13:07
yofelas for -fpie, I don't know. Whatever the curren gcc6 default is13:07
yofel*current13:07
BluesKajHowdy all13:08
yofelo/13:08
tsimonq2yay, at the dentist13:14
tsimonq2:/13:14
tsimonq2time between getting looked at and the cleaning13:14
BluesKajhey yofel , I've set the fonts wit root permissions in systemsetings to be large on this tv/monitor , but the changes don't happen when I open muon for example and check 'configure software sources' the reulting window still uses the default small fonts, same goes for kata or dolphin...any app that needs to be root. This problem has been with us since plasma5 and I can't seem to finsd a fix for it13:15
yofelBluesKaj: I fear I have no idea. I would expect it to write the necessary settings to /root/.config/ - unless something (sudo?) overrides the storage location (which is supposed to be $XDG_CONFIG_HOME (default ~/.config/) I believe)13:22
BluesKajyofel, well I'm disappoinred with the lack of attentionto this matter ...guess I should file a bug 13:28
yofelBluesKaj: how *exactly* do you run systemsettings?13:30
acheronukI get this by default. Seems readable to me? http://i.imgur.com/nUGGHYI.png13:45
yofelhe did say TV, and that might indeed be too small13:46
acheronukoh, so he did. sorry13:50
BluesKajyofel, in the run command/krunner 'kdesudo systemsettings5'14:11
ahoneybunmm 14:20
ahoneybunthat's in good old Qt4 or something14:20
yofelthat's a custom kde4 thing we wrote back in the days14:24
ahoneybunfor kdesudo?14:24
yofelkdesudo14:24
yofeltoday you're supposed to use pkexec, but that intentionally requires explicit whitelisting gui applications14:25
yofelbut regardless of the fonts, dolphin doesn't work at all for me as root14:26
soeefu kamail!14:27
soee*kmail14:27
soeeit removed everything from my inbox oO local and remote content14:28
soeewhen i clicked to open one mail14:28
* ahoneybun tries to use wget to download a deb file14:28
soeewhat a day what a day ..14:28
ahoneybunthere we go14:29
geniiwhen does do-release-upgrade -d work to go from xenial to yakkety, after Beta 1 freeze?14:31
ahoneybunit does work, just breaks things14:31
geniiRight now it tells me no candidate14:32
ahoneybunyou have to change it to normal releases14:32
ahoneybunits on only LTS releases 14:32
geniiAh, got it14:32
santa_good afternoon everyone14:39
ahoneybunheyo santa_14:41
soeehiho14:45
santa_acheronuk: do we have the ppa's working again or not yet?14:50
acheronuksanta_: the apps one was increased to 25GB, and that seems ok for now. apps built, but with errors to sort. but probably a rebuild for YY needed with gcc614:52
=== santa is now known as Guest57463
=== Guest57463 is now known as santa__
=== santa__ is now known as santa_
geniiYeah lots of breakage with do-release-upgrade so far, groaning about i386 zlib, libc6, and some others15:18
BluesKajhey genii , I managed to get a successful upgrade to 16.04 from 14,04 without breakage, ...got lucky I guess15:30
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> Genii is moving from 16.04 to 16.1016:35
soee:)16:40
soeehttps://phabricator.kde.org/M58/178/16:40
yofelwow16:43
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> That's nice16:44
acheronukahoneybun: yofel currently in neon-dev http://i.imgur.com/CFIgqAv.png16:48
yofelhm, that feels a bit too simple.. or maybe the input and button don't feel right with that fuzzy transparent background16:49
yofelI like the idea though16:49
soeewe could grab and change a bit neon plymouth16:49
geniiInteresting, must be in runlevel 2-5 for postinstall of apt 1.3~pre3 to complete16:50
soeereplace their logo with Kubuntu and ame with text16:50
soeethis is how Media Player widget will look more or less in Plasma 5.8 - my design :) 16:51
soeehttp://wstaw.org/m/2016/07/22/media-player-t2.png16:51
soeewhere will be also shuffle and repeat controls16:52
yofelwell, that's certainly better than the current oen16:52
soeewasn't hard to create better layout than current 16:52
yofelmight be, but it also feels right, so good job16:53
acheronukI also like the new splash http://i.imgur.com/IVggNLb.png16:56
acheronukeven if it is a bit windows startup like16:56
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> I'd rather have the gear turn17:00
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> Looks cool soee17:00
soeeacheronuk: i like GRUB style in Neon :D17:03
santa_yofel: inb4 the gcc 6 symbols fixes I'm doing may not turn off the red light of the KCI, if they doen't maybe the solution would be fixing the builder.rb from the ci-tooling17:14
santa_s/doen't/don't/17:14
acheronukI assume a rebuild of apps for YY and then bugfix of them has to be done before the feature freeze so Yofl can upload to archive?20:24
acheronukand FF is 1 week today!20:25
yofelshould be done, right. Do you want to do the upload? Otherwise I'll prepare the packages today20:28
clivejowhere is santa getting these changes from?20:30
acheronukyofel: I'm only popping in for 5/10 mins, so I guess perhaps you should. I may be back in a couple of hrs for a bit, but can't guarantee that.20:30
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> yofel what about the slideshow?20:32
clivejoIm available if you need something?20:32
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> If we are a week away20:32
clivejoyofel: you need a NC rebuild of apps on Yakkety?20:34
yofelclivejo: yes20:34
clivejowhat are your thoughts on those merge requests from santa?20:35
yofelahoneybun: what you had yesterday looked acceptable as an emergency measure (I agree with the spacing after the title though)20:35
yofelahoneybun: we might want to get that up over the weekend20:35
yofeljust so we have *something* for yakkety at least20:35
yofelclivejo: I am wondering whether those are gcc5 or qt5.5 symbols - meaning whether the comment is correct. But I do agree that marking them optional if they suddenly go missing is the right thing to do20:37
yofelI don't think anything should get broken by such symbols going missing20:37
clivejoI just cant seem to generate the same20:37
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> I did some changes and I'll post a image in a hour or so20:37
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> yofel20:37
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> I'll finish the rest today or tomorrow20:38
yofelclivejo: he was buliding his own builds - which might not have matched what we have?20:38
yofelclivejo: what did you build against?20:38
clivejoyakkety archive20:38
yofelahoneybun: excellent, thanks!20:38
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> Not sure how to make them 'slide'20:38
clivejowith proposed20:38
yofelclivejo: including proposed?20:38
yofelhm20:38
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> Now we know what we need to do next release lol20:38
yofelor those really are qt5.6 symbols and he built with 5.520:39
clivejoI really cant get my head around it20:39
yofelahoneybun: port ubiquity? ^^20:39
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> That's a huge thing to port20:40
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> This is the easy fix20:40
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> Temp if anything20:40
yofelright20:41
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> You said you would not work on it as the license is insane20:41
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> And I agree and respect the decision20:41
yofelI could work on it, but that would have no chance to get merged back in. Maybe we could make a forked kde-ui package with just the UI, but I haven't looked at how feasable that is20:42
valoriewe have time before our next LTS for a long-term fix20:43
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> Yea but that's for next release planning20:43
yofelack20:43
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> UOS planning20:43
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> (Photo, 960x1280) https://irc-attachments.kde.org/gRIrlm4Y/file_151.jpg20:45
IrcsomeBot<ahoneybun> Fueling up for work20:45
* clivejo grabs an apple20:48
valorietime to face the heat and do the watering20:54
clivejosend me some heat20:54
clivejobeen a miserable day here20:55
yofelbeen slightly warmer than yesterday here. The morning was 13° and a buddy told me he had 7° - we have summer, right?20:55
ahoneybunand I'm home20:56
ahoneybunyofel: do I just send you the qml files?20:57
yofelwhat did you use as the source?20:57
ahoneybunI'm just making them atm20:57
ahoneybunI have the slideshow downloaded20:57
yofelso you fetched the package?20:58
ahoneybunsince I grabbed the images and text from the html files20:58
ahoneybunbzred it20:58
yofelcan't you make a bzr branch?20:58
ahoneybunas make mine and merge?20:58
yofelright20:58
ahoneybunwell I need to look into the python and see how it calls the slideshow20:59
yofelack20:59
ahoneybunso it loads a conf file21:00
ahoneybunslideshow_config.read(os.path.join(slideshow_path,'kubuntu/slideshow.conf'))21:00
ahoneybunoh21:00
ahoneybunthats just the side of the window21:00
ahoneybunlooks at the index.html21:00
ahoneybunmm this kinda breaks our translations21:01
ahoneybunbut since I use the same words it might be a easy fix21:01
ahoneybunnot sure if I should follow that conf file in size21:05
ahoneybunany idea yofel?21:09
yofelno, maybe ask whoever worked on it last?21:10
ahoneybunmm21:11
ahoneybunyofel: I'll bug around #ubuntu-devel21:17
geniiAfter much cursing and rending of hair and gnashing of teeth, I finally managed to get this machine next to me from Xenial to Yakkety21:20
clivejogenii: any issues?21:29
geniiclivejo: Well, previously I used to go into recovery mode, enable networking and mount rw, then do-release-upgrade from there without issue. but this time some packages require normal runlevels to finish installing instead of single user21:30
ahoneybunyofel: if all the slideshows use html then should they all not be broken?21:30
ahoneybunor is it just us for some reaosn21:31
ahoneybun*reason21:31
yofeljust us as we use *Qt*Webkit21:31
ahoneybunGTK has it's own?21:31
yofelyes21:31
ahoneybunthis whole thing is based on html files21:31
ahoneybunthis is going to be a big hack21:31
geniiclivejo: Also apt is graoning some about no Release files on kubuntu-ppas21:32
yofelhence porting it to qt5 webkit or later qtwebengine would be the appropriate path21:32
yofelbut probably not trivial21:32
ahoneybunchanging this from html to qml might be on the same level21:32
yofelunless *just* the slideshow can use qt521:32
ahoneybundo you know the name of the qt5 one?21:34
ahoneybunfrom PyQt5.QtWebKit import *21:35
ahoneybunthis does not work21:35
ahoneybunfrom PyQt4.QtWebKit import * was the old one21:35
yofelI do not, there should be some qt5 porting guide on the net?21:38
ahoneybunI just changed that one line to test it21:38
ahoneybunI did installed the new version21:38
ahoneybunthere is : python3-pyqt5.qtwebkit21:40
ahoneybunI installed that as well21:40
ahoneybunI got it to start at least21:47
ahoneybunso progress21:48
santa_yofel, clivejo: regarding my merge requests I have been building them against qt packages from either: a) yakkety-proposed b)  the landing 024 ppa21:50
santa_some of them are from b) because not all of them are available in a)21:50
santa_so it's the closest thing to what we'll have in yakkety21:51
yofelweird that we haven't seen them then21:51
santa_well, note that the ppa builds were against gcc 521:51
santa_(I think)21:51
clivejocurrently rebuilding - http://qa.kubuntu.co.uk/ppa-status/applications/build_status_16.04.3_yakkety.html21:51
ahoneybunyofel: changing a few of the libraries got it to open at least21:52
clivejoppa50 are the NC rebuilds21:52
ahoneybunthe kubuntu-slideshow.py21:52
santa_yofel: also note that, at least, the bluez-qt symbol is also gone in the KCI build21:53
santa_it's not failing because of the dpkg-gensymbols -c021:54
santa_I have also other stuff to fix in apps btw21:55
yofelok, then I guess I misunderstood clive and he meant the ppa builds22:00
yofelit would be best if you 2 talk that out, as I know little about the state of apps22:01
yofelI'll only comment that marking those symbols optional looks correct to me22:01
yofel*if* that's really gcc6 stuff22:01
ahoneybunmm not sure why this is not working22:02
santa_clivejo: about apps I'm right now building a (hopefully) fixed krfb, will make a merge request soon22:05
santa_there are also other packages failing to build22:05
santa_right now these ones: http://gpul.grupos.udc.es/buildstatus_ubuntu-exp/ubuntu-exp_status_not-built.html22:05
santa_I have also a solution in mind for kalzium22:06
santa_regarding print-manager I bet the recent cups upload to yakkety is the cause of the ftbfs22:06
santa_and regarding kde4libs I bet there's already a patch out there to make it build against gcc 622:07
yofelkalzium is a follow-up error from kde4libs I think22:07
yofelyes, all packages need to be synced with the archive before upload22:08
yofelthe release team has fixed most of the gcc6 issues based on 15.12 already22:08
santa_kalzium is failing because of avogadro22:09
santa_I will check my theory about that soon22:09
clivejoyofel have we a script for syncing with the archive?22:11
yofelsomewhat, staging-upload does that, but that has not been ported to the new tooling yet - which would've been really handy right now....22:11
santa_but you aren't using the new tooling yet except for the bumping script right?22:12
santa_btw, the build logs of frameworks with my fixes: http://gpul.grupos.udc.es/buildstatus_ubuntu-exp/ubuntu-exp_status_frameworks.html22:12
santa_just checked that the qtbase version is >= 5.6 for bluez-qt22:13
yofelyes, but staging-upload cannot really be run now, so that's not really useful22:13
yofeland ubuntu-archive-upload has no changelog verification22:13
yofelsanta_: frameworks for unstable / 5.25?22:14
santa_yofel: I haven't build them, but I could if you want22:15
santa_did you?22:15
yofel5.24 is already in proposed22:15
yofelso if there were any gcc6 issues someone else fixed those22:15
yofelsame for plasma22:15
santa_there wasn't any issue with plasma22:15
santa_let me check the frameworks status in proposed...22:16
yofelwell, the ci builds frameworks, so that's covered if we want to update it22:16
santa_because of the -c022:17
yofelyes, I mean that should be green if we want to update it22:17
santa_outside the kci they would fail22:17
yofelbut we don't need another test build22:17
santa_ok22:18
yofelfixing apps 16.04.3 up for upload is the highest priority right now22:18
santa_about proposed: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-qt22:18
santa_↑ the frameworks ftbfs'ing with gcc 6 probably weren't fixed by someone else22:19
yofelthat's all built?22:19
santa_it's just that they were built by gcc5 so they are built22:19
yofelah ok22:19
santa_but as soon as you rebuild them with gcc 6 they will fail22:20
yofelright, I remember someone talking about rebuild failures, but until the whole qt5.6 blob migrates, that's in a do-not-touch state22:20
clivejobut surely your merges should be going into kubuntu_unstable ?22:20
yofelframeworks should go to _unstable, apps should go to _archive22:21
clivejosorry, Im just confused here22:21
clivejoThe merge requests santa_ has submitted are for yakkety_archive branch22:22
valorieclivejo: 26 here; you can have 10 of that for sure22:22
yofelclivejo: well, check how the ppa rebuild goes, that *should* show the same issues22:23
santa_the merge resuets I did, are indeed targeted to kubuntu_yakkety_archive22:23
santa_BUT22:23
santa_they must be merged in kubuntu_unstable as well22:23
yofel*that* is automatic22:23
ahoneybunyofel: I put what I have in here :https://code.launchpad.net/~aaronhoneycutt/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/yakkety22:23
yofelahoneybun: thanks, I'll look tomorrow22:23
santa_indeed it was automatic, at least back in the days22:24
yofelit still is22:24
ahoneybunI'll work on it some more then chill out22:24
clivejosanta_: would you mind helping me with apps?22:24
ahoneybunI changed a few versions and adding some modules in kubuntu-slideshow.py22:24
* yofel is slightly confused by now as well22:24
ahoneybunso it at least launches with no errors22:24
ahoneybun./test-slideshow.sh needs glib and gtk crap22:24
santa_clivejo: yes, I will send you a merge request for krfb soon22:24
clivejosanta_: Id like to go through them with you using Kubuntu workflow if thats OK?22:25
clivejoI dont understand your build box 22:25
clivejoso on http://qa.kubuntu.co.uk/ppa-status/applications/build_status_16.04.3_yakkety.html22:25
clivejoanalitza is saying New symbols#22:26
santa_clivejo: no prob, you can ignore my build box22:26
clivejowhen I batchpatch the symbols Im getting one marked as missing22:27
clivejo#MISSING: 4:16.04.3# (optional=templinst)_ZN8Analitza8Analyzer15alphaConversionINS_9MatrixRowEN5QListIPNS_6ObjectEE8iteratorES4_EEvPT_i@Base 4:15.04.022:27
* acheronuk is slightly confused, just reading that backlog22:27
santa_clivejo: with that one you can either remove the line, or remove the "#MISSING: 4:16.04.3#" keeping the entry in the symbols file22:29
* yofel -> bed22:29
clivejocan you explain what that symbol is?22:30
clivejoie whats a (optional=templinst) symbol?22:30
valoriesweet dreams yofel22:30
clivejogood night yofel22:30
acheronuknight :)22:30
santa_clivejo: thats something produced by C++ templates if I'm not mistaken22:30
santa_and being option the fact is missing won't produce a build failure22:31
santa_s/option/optional/22:31
santa_clivejo: tldr: just remove it and make sure the new symbol is in the symbols file, this way you will get it green in the status page22:32
santa_doubts?22:32
clivejook22:34
clivejothese symbols are just due to building with gcc6?22:36
santa_maybe, I didn't checked things being orange in the status page, I just checked build failures which are the bigger problem now22:37
santa_* biggest22:38
acheronukkdepim: CMake Warning at CMakeLists.txt:205 (find_package): Could not find a package configuration file provided by "KF5Prison"22:48
acheronukDo we have that, and want that added if we do?22:49
valorieI think prison is new22:49
valorie!info kf5prison22:49
ubottuPackage kf5prison does not exist in yakkety22:49
valoriehmmm22:49
valorie!info prison22:50
ubottuPackage prison does not exist in yakkety22:50
acheronukI've seen though, so that must be only in KCI22:50
santa_!info libkf5prison-dev22:52
ubottulibkf5prison-dev (source: prison-kf5): barcode API for Qt - development files. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.2~git20150223-0ubuntu2 (yakkety), package size 8 kB, installed size 95 kB22:52
santa_acheronuk: ↑22:52
acheronukoh, yes, frameworks, but not frameworks! 22:54
acheronuknot sure this is the stage to start adding in more optional build deps though?22:55
clivejoprobably need a new version of that22:56
* clivejo pokes KCI22:57
clivejogood start!22:59
acheronukokular *could* have LibKScreen dev added for "DPI detection support"23:01
clivejodoes it build with it enabled?23:02
acheronukthat's what I mean, will have to test all that if we start enabling those optionals.23:03
acheronukclivejo: fixes would go to yakkety_archive? and ppa uploads increment your ppa50?23:05
clivejo!info libkscreen-dev23:06
ubottuPackage libkscreen-dev does not exist in yakkety23:06
acheronukif so, I shall spend a bit of time on it in the morning23:06
acheronuk!info libkf5screen-dev23:06
ubottulibkf5screen-dev (source: libkscreen): library for screen management - development files. In component universe, is extra. Version 4:5.5.5-0ubuntu1 (yakkety), package size 11 kB, installed size 88 kB23:06
clivejoyes23:08
clivejoIve done okular and added that as build dep23:08
acheronukthat or whatever else needs doing/has not been done, I mean23:09
* clivejo fingers crossed it builds23:09
clivejoIve fixed a lot of those symbols errors23:09
clivejojust LP is taking forever to update the status page23:09
acheronukgood, I went through the orange and there seems a fair few23:09
clivejonot sure how many are fixed23:10
tsimonq2what's up? :D23:10
acheronukI'll see what is left in the morning..23:11
clivejoId like to know why those are FTBFS23:11
clivejosanta_: do you know?23:11
santa_clivejo: yes, except for kde4libs23:12
santa_clivejo: https://code.launchpad.net/~panfaust/kubuntu-packaging/+git/krfb/+merge/30273423:13
santa_kde4libs btw isn't failing but I think it will if you rebuild it23:13
* acheronuk wonders what gcc kde's CI builds with now23:16
santa_acheronuk: pick any recent build log, go to the cmake part, that reports the gcc detected with version23:20
acheronukyes, just finding how to get the build log on their jenkins is a pain23:25
acheronuk5.2.123:26
santa_yeah, I find it difficult too23:31

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