[00:50] <bluesabre> Unit193: I see jbicha added some comments for xfdashboard, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1598503/comments/5, I can go ahead and start making those changes
[00:52] <Unit193> bluesabre: Great, I've either been busy or putting that off. >_>
[00:54] <bluesabre> Unit193: np :)
[02:30] <bluesabre> Unit193: would you like to review? https://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+git/xfdashboard/commit/?id=d2ca4649c22724ae0248c75413e43d85664b455c - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1598503/comments/5
[02:33] <Unit193> Wait, I actually manually put that in the wrong install?  How late was that...
[02:33] <Unit193> bluesabre: Don't override dh_auto_configure.
[02:34] <Unit193> And for changelog, prefix "Initial release" with [ Unit 193 / Sean Davis ] ?
[02:34] <bluesabre> certainly
[02:34] <Unit193> Otherwise, seems like it's missing the symbols.
[02:34] <bluesabre> oh?
[02:34] <bluesabre> oh!
[02:34] <bluesabre> :D
[02:34] <Unit193> :D
[02:34] <Unit193> git add
[02:34] <bluesabre> yup
[02:36] <Unit193> bluesabre: Thanks for doing it. :>
[02:36] <bluesabre> https://git.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+git/xfdashboard/commit/?id=37d3b614a21514b74fb0a488c6474747938f562e
[02:36] <bluesabre> Unit193: anything else?
[02:37] <Unit193> I think that's good, as long as you say so, Mr Technical lead. :---D
[02:37]  * Unit193 runs.
[02:38]  * bluesabre dons the hat.
[02:48] <bluesabre> productive night :)
[02:49] <Unit193> I saw you active over in #xfce-dev, but wasn't following along.
[02:50] <bluesabre> fixed this antique, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-331/+bug/1308105
[02:50] <bluesabre> (or rather, committed somebody's patch)
[02:58] <bluesabre> time for bed, bbl
[02:58] <Unit193> G'night.
[06:11] <flocculant> bluesabre: thanks :)
[06:37] <flocculant> bluesabre: also might have a try again with tv and 16.04 now that you patched, I see the update in the ppa :)
[06:41] <flocculant> tjaalton has uploaded the intel thing seemingly :)
[07:45] <astraljava> Sweet!
[08:19] <Unit193> !info xfdashboard yakkety
[08:19] <Unit193> !info xfdashboard yakkety-proposed
[09:47] <bluesabre> flocculant, Unit193: woohoo, progress! Glad I stayed up late :)
[09:47] <Unit193> Oh crap, you're here. :3
[09:50] <bluesabre> :D
[09:52] <Unit193> And of course I mean that in the nice way.  It's still a late night for me...
[09:58] <bluesabre> sleep is for the other units
[19:33] <flocculant> !team | meeting in ~30 minutes
[19:45] <ochosi> flocculant: thanks for the reminder :)
[19:52] <flocculant> ochosi: welcome ;)
[20:00] <flocculant> #startmeeting
[20:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Aug 12 20:00:11 2016 UTC.  The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[20:00] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[20:00] <flocculant> that's going to be fun then ...
[20:00] <flocculant> who's where 
[20:01] <flocculant> or even here
[20:01] <krytarik> o/
[20:01] <flocculant> evening krytarik 
[20:01] <krytarik> \o/
[20:02] <knome> /o\
[20:02] <flocculant> #topic Open action items
[20:02] <flocculant> we can deal with that waiting to see
[20:03] <flocculant> bluesabre and flocculant dealt with their action item
[20:03] <flocculant> #done bluesabre and flocculant to reword the SD to formalize the council.
[20:03] <flocculant> *shrug*
[20:03] <flocculant> #topic Announcements and Updates
[20:04] <flocculant> FeatureFreeze DebianImportFreeze next week, 18th August
[20:04] <flocculant> #info QA is quiet - pretty normal for post LTS cycle
[20:04] <flocculant> now I'll just wait around for a bit 
[20:04] <knome> #info Feature Freeze and Debian Import Freeze next week (18th August)
[20:05] <ochosi> o/
[20:06] <ochosi> (sorry iÄm late)
[20:06] <knome> yes you Äre
[20:06] <dkessel> Hey
[20:06] <ochosi> yes i am
[20:06] <flocculant> wb ochosi - fashionably late this time, instead of really late :p
[20:07] <flocculant> ochosi: any updates?
[20:07] <flocculant> hi dkessel 
[20:08] <flocculant> #info SRU for Intel lock/cursor bug is progressing afaict
[20:08] <ochosi> yeah, i saw the SRU progress too
[20:08] <ochosi> sounded promising
[20:08] <ochosi> other than that i'm still fighting with getting the greybird release out
[20:08] <flocculant> :)
[20:08] <knome> ochosi, i have a question
[20:08] <ochosi> had some showstoppers, but this time it'll *really* be a matter of days :)
[20:08] <knome> ochosi, how do you hear with your eyes?
[20:09]  * flocculant starts counting 
[20:09] <ochosi> knome: awesome question, thanks :)
[20:09] <knome> you're welcome
[20:09] <flocculant> any other updates - if not we can move along
[20:09] <ochosi> other than that i'll soon set up a physical yakkety machine so i can get some real-world testing done
[20:09] <knome> move along from me
[20:10] <ochosi> i think i have no real updates at this moment, other than what i mentioned
[20:10] <flocculant> k
[20:10] <ochosi> i'm working a lot on xfce upstream stuff
[20:10] <flocculant> yup
[20:10] <flocculant> I see that :)
[20:10] <ochosi> but that'll only be relevant if we decide to ship it all in 16.0
[20:10] <ochosi> 16.10
[20:10] <ochosi> probably worth starting a list of gtk3 components or releases we want to ship
[20:10] <knome> ochosi, i have a question
[20:11] <knome> ochosi, where would we ship it all?
[20:11] <flocculant> to an iso I would hope
[20:11] <knome> or maybe to a distant island...
[20:11] <flocculant> #topic Discussion items
[20:11] <flocculant> #subtopic Xubuntu Council
[20:11] <ochosi> knome: in "16.10" (which is a boat of the length of 16m and width of 10m)
[20:11] <flocculant> Now that doc change is done we need to open up for nominations, suggest mail out today/tomorrow with nominations ending 26th August, which should be more than enough time. Send vote mail out on 29th August with vote ending on 4th September, meaning council will be in place good 2 weeks prior to the only milestone we're doing this cycle.
[20:11] <flocculant> ochosi: that's a plank :D
[20:12] <knome> flocculant, sounds like a good plan to me
[20:12] <ochosi> flocculant: sure it is :)
[20:12] <ochosi> and yeah, +1 on the timeline
[20:12] <ochosi> so the council would be in place before the 16.10 release
[20:12] <flocculant> ochosi: yea 
[20:12] <flocculant> well before
[20:12] <ochosi> had almost given up hope we would make that :)
[20:13] <flocculant> there's this club - you could have joined it ;)
[20:13] <flocculant> krytarik dkessel ^^ 
[20:13] <ochosi> yeah, wasn't around enough to give valuable input so i thought i'd stay out of it not to stall things
[20:14] <flocculant> ochosi: wrong club - I meant the given up hope one ...
[20:14] <knome> yeah, flocculant is the chair for life of that club... :P
[20:14] <ochosi> haha
[20:15] <ochosi> yeah, i'd also hate to disrupt that club then
[20:15] <flocculant> knome: nope - about another 10 weeks ;)
[20:15] <knome> (not the benevolent, and not necessarily self-appointed either, but definitely the dictator)
[20:15] <knome> O:)
[20:15] <flocculant> akxwi can chair it after that 
[20:15] <dkessel> Oh, should I point out that I agree? I agree with the plan.
[20:15] <knome> benches! please give some attention and love to benches too!!
[20:16] <flocculant> dkessel: well - you're here and in team so yes why not :)
[20:16] <knome> dkessel, not mandatory, but nice to hear you do :)
[20:16] <flocculant> anything else on that timeline? 
[20:16] <knome> flocculant, so shall you take the #action item and get on with it?
[20:16] <knome> ^ that :P
[20:16] <knome> or does ochosi want to announce
[20:16] <knome> since sitting XPL
[20:17] <ochosi> yeah, i can, but flocculant did all the work..
[20:17] <knome> isn't that how it's used to go
[20:17] <flocculant> depends if ochosi can do it today/tomorrow :p
[20:17] <knome> ochosi, yeah, welcome to the club (the "let others do the work and take the credit")
[20:17] <flocculant> #action ochosi to announc opening nominations for Xubuntu Council with timeline
[20:17] <meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to announc opening nominations for Xubuntu Council with timeline
[20:17] <knome> announc?
[20:18] <knome> [:
[20:18] <knome> (just let it be and end the meeting already...)
[20:18] <flocculant> yea - I had an e kicking around but lost it
[20:18] <knome> /kick e
[20:18] <flocculant> anyone got any other pressing issues to add to the meeting? 
[20:18] <ochosi> i'll just mail out that sentence from flocculant from the scrollback
[20:18] <knome> well,
[20:19] <ochosi> i have probably a little thing
[20:19] <ochosi> since Unit193 brought it up on -ot
[20:19] <knome> there's a new finnish youtube channel, where people break stuff with hydraulic *presses*
[20:19] <knome> that's a very pressing issue
[20:19] <knome> ochosi, go ahead.
[20:19] <flocculant> ochosi: subtopic it then :)
[20:19] <ochosi> knome obviously had sex with a clown today
[20:19] <knome> well i met a client
[20:19] <knome> isn't that comparable?
[20:19] <flocculant> ochosi: not a very funny one ...
[20:20] <ochosi> #subtopic Development releases of Xfce in 16.10?
[20:20] <ochosi> flocculant: indeed :)
[20:20] <ochosi> so basically what i'd like us to discuss briefly is whether anyone considers it a risk shipping 4.13 releases in 16.10
[20:21] <knome> the risk Unit193 saw was that we wouldn't be able to get into xfce 4.14 before 18.04 fwiw
[20:21] <ochosi> what i mentioned earlier (putting together a list of components we want in 16.10) was mostly targetted at applications and *maybe* panel plugins
[20:21] <flocculant> ochosi: given we shipped broken intel and that file manager in an LTS then I don't ;)
[20:21] <ochosi> but it's true that it would help xfce if we shipped 4.13 early in our "regular" releases
[20:21] <knome> i don't see a big risk here, but i have a question
[20:21] <knome> (not a trolly one)
[20:21] <knome> what else do we want to achieve before the next LTS?
[20:22] <ochosi> good question...
[20:22] <knome> or are we simply going to maintaining mode for the next 3 releases?
[20:22] <knome> and if not, how do the other plans work with the xfce development packages being there?
[20:22] <ochosi> personally my goal is maintaining the artwork (which seems to be continuous work anyway with the gtk devs breaking stuff) and porting xfce as good as i can
[20:22] <knome> do we have the manpower to realistically even plan more stuff if we land the new xfce stuff?
[20:23] <knome> let's forget about the rest of the maintaining stuff we need to do anyway
[20:23] <ochosi> for xubuntu as a whole i would say try to get rid of as much old technologies as we can
[20:23] <knome> i'm talking about new features or something else that needs extra work and planning
[20:23] <flocculant> ochosi: the only risk that I see is whether there are enough people checking the 4.13 stuff - as you'd expect
[20:23] <Unit193> flocculant: File manager was ours, intel driver isn't really ours.  This would be *us* "breaking" things.
[20:23] <ochosi> problem is that at the moment our "developers" are busy with working on upstream xfce stuff
[20:23] <knome> so what else old technologies do we have except gtk2?
[20:23] <knome> is there still some python2 stuff around?
[20:24] <flocculant> Unit193: indeed
[20:24] <ochosi> maybe python2, maybe gstreamer stuff, not sure
[20:24] <Unit193> gst0.10 is gone.
[20:24] <knome> if our plan is to get that out before 18.04, could somebody who is knowledgeable on the subject create a roadmap for that side?
[20:24] <ochosi> i guess bluesabre could
[20:25] <ochosi> after all he's our snake-charmer
[20:25] <ochosi> :]
[20:25] <Unit193> ochosi: Can you clarify on 'old technologies' a bit more?
[20:25] <knome> that too
[20:26] <knome> i don't think that's a discussion for the meeting necessarily
[20:26] <knome> it might be better on the mailing list
[20:26] <ochosi> Unit193: well, that was mostly targeted at middleware that our applications and desktop use
[20:26] <ochosi> so gtk2, gstreamer, ...
[20:26] <knome> we might actually get some useful ideas/pointers from the community here
[20:26] <ochosi> sure
[20:26] <knome> ochosi, want to take the action to send another mail?
[20:26] <Unit193> ochosi: Basically I'm trying to figure out if you're trying to do away more with a classic desktop.
[20:27] <knome> i don't think this has anything to do with classic/modern desktops
[20:27] <ochosi> Unit193: nope, not really thinking about mobile when i say "technology" here ;)
[20:27] <knome> or change of direction in the kind of desktop we want here
[20:27] <knome> indeed
[20:27] <Unit193> No, not mobile either way.
[20:27] <ochosi> just getting rid of extra packages we have to ship and that might not be as well maintained anymore
[20:27] <ochosi> (or not at all)
[20:27] <ochosi> like the murrine engine
[20:28] <knome> yep..
[20:28] <Unit193> ochosi: That, I'm good with! :P
[20:28] <knome> potentially some of this work might mean stuff would get removed from the repositories
[20:28] <ochosi> so basically my BIG goal for 18.04 would be to be gtk3 all the way
[20:28] <knome> which is not necessarily a bad thing
[20:28] <ochosi> yup
[20:28] <knome> ochosi, that depends more on xfce though, but yeah, sure
[20:28] <ochosi> yeah mostly
[20:28] <Unit193> Well, GTK3 only might be pretty big, but otherwise right.
[20:28] <ochosi> but we might still have stuff lingering around
[20:28] <knome> but again my question is if that's the *only* goal too?
[20:29] <ochosi> i'd say it could be the main goal
[20:29] <ochosi> since it's quite big on its own
[20:29] <knome> i can agree with that, but again it's partly out of our reach
[20:29] <ochosi> well it depends
[20:29] <knome> i mean out of our control
[20:30] <ochosi> if we say it's our goal then one consequence would be to double-down and install (tested) 4.13 releases of xfce components
[20:30] <knome> sure, xubuntu developers can user their time in helping xfce, but that doesn't guarantee it's ready for 18.04
[20:30] <knome> yes
[20:30] <ochosi> well nothing guarantees that anyway
[20:30] <knome> of course not
[20:30] <knome> but that's exactly what i meant
[20:30] <ochosi> i'd say we should clean our front yard
[20:30] <ochosi> make a list of what other gtk2 stuff we have
[20:30] <ochosi> and try to replace it 
[20:30] <flocculant> for this amount - should have been on the agenda
[20:31] <knome> that was what i was proposing earlier
[20:31] <ochosi> thinking of pidgin etc.
[20:31] <ochosi> flocculant: yeah, well spontaneous idea. blame Unit193!
[20:31] <knome> flocculant, i agree it probably should have been, but i don't want to slow down impromptu discussion
[20:31] <knome> we're not making decisions here anyway
[20:31] <Unit193> ochosi: Noooope, I didn't mention it here! :P
[20:31] <ochosi> as long as "here" is IRC... ;)
[20:32] <ochosi> Unit193: wanna make a list of things still gtk2 in our default install?
[20:32] <flocculant> at least 2 people who should be involved aren't here
[20:32] <Unit193> Anything else for the meeting?  Discussion can continue afterwards I believe.
[20:32] <flocculant> knome: ^^
[20:32] <knome> flocculant, should that stop us from discussing?
[20:32] <ochosi> flocculant: there's no decision-taking anyway, it's more a fact-finding mission (is going all gtk3 even realistic for 18.04, even when we exclude xfce)
[20:32] <flocculant> only when you're not running things
[20:33] <knome> as i see it, part of the reason we have scheduled meetings is that we give the opportunity for people to meet and discuss, even impromptu, non-agenda items
[20:33] <knome> flocculant, i'll take the chair and run the rest of the meeting if that's the issue
[20:34] <knome> and i do think that all of the team should be involved in the decision whether we want to ship (gtk3) development versions from xfce or not
[20:35] <Unit193> Not entirely keen on the idea.
[20:35] <knome> we'll never have everyone here, even if the topic is on the agenda and the meeting is announced well in advance; people simply have blockers
[20:36] <knome> Unit193, keen on what? team being involved?
[20:36] <flocculant> so the bulk should be on the mailing list
[20:36] <Unit193> knome: Exxxactly!  Nope, GTK3 Xfce so early.
[20:36] <knome> ...but again, the reason why we schedule meetings (at least as i see it) it is to be able to have these real-time discussions
[20:36] <knome> mailing list is so damn slow.
[20:37] <knome> Unit193, it wasn't obvious (and i guess that there might've been arguments for the other too)
[20:37] <ochosi> Unit193: wanna share your concerns?
[20:37] <Unit193> OK, now it is though. :)
[20:37] <knome> yes, thanks for clearing
[20:37] <knome> (seriously!)
[20:39] <knome> and i'd like to hear the concerns too
[20:39] <Unit193> Updating my yak iso so I can check gtk2 (maybe) and py2.
[20:40] <knome> is the concern that you don't trust enough that the all-gtk3 port is ready?
[20:40] <knome> or is something else involved?
[20:40] <knome> (not saying the former isn't a good argument)
[20:41] <ochosi> sry guys, i'll be afk for 30mins or so, i'll return later on though and read the backlog
[20:41] <ochosi> ->
[20:41] <knome> i guess we should hear the arguments from Unit193 and end the meeting, or if he wants time to think about it, just end the meeting
[20:41] <Unit193> I'm thinking that it's very early for those releases, not a lot of testing outside of the people that ported them (so might well not be fully baked), and then getting stuck with it for 6 months.
[20:42] <Unit193> I'm good with ending now, either way.
[20:42] <knome> for a longer time, actually
[20:42] <flocculant> Unit193: Id' worry about that as well given the testing *we* manage to get
[20:42] <knome> if that's the concern, then from xfce's point of view, who's going to do the testing outside those who ported?
[20:42] <knome> (rhetorical, and partly offtopic, let's not go to that here)
[20:44] <Unit193> That's what Debian experimental is for, people to opt-in not in static releases, like ours.  I'd say we could PPA everything (smoke test it first), and heck even mention that PPA in the official release notes.
[20:44] <knome> Unit193, that's a fair suggestion and i considered that as well
[20:44] <knome> Unit193, theoretically, could you whip up an ISO with the PPA stuff installed?
[20:45] <knome> (and yeah, the other goal for 18.04 at latest should be core/base)
[20:45] <Unit193> Just the whole idea of "New release of Xubuntu!"  "Oh, and btw.  You're all testers, you'll file bugs right?"
[20:45] <knome> fair.
[20:45] <knome> though now is the perfect time
[20:46] <knome> well, the best; let me explain
[20:46] <knome> 16.10 is the first release after an LTS; at this point those who don't want to be testers can still decide to go the LTS->LTS upgrade route
[20:46] <knome> if we land the stuff in 17.04, those who have gone to 16.10 do not have that option any more, and they are even more forced to be testers
[20:47] <Unit193> flocculant: Ready to end the meeting?  This is after meeting stuff.
[20:48] <flocculant> knome: on the other hand - if it all goes badly wrong - those people are now stuck upgrading to 17.04 as soon as possible
[20:48] <flocculant> #info bluesabre to schedule next meeting
[20:48] <flocculant> #endmeeting
[20:48] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Aug 12 20:48:56 2016 UTC.  
[20:48] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-08-12-20.00.moin.txt
[20:49] <flocculant> knome: and then they'd be using a real dev version till it's released
[20:49] <knome> flocculant, sure, but it's much more opt-in kind of situation if the gtk3 stuff first lands in 16.10
[20:49] <flocculant> yea ofc
[20:49] <knome> of course. but they could always skip to 18.04
[20:50] <Unit193> On a personal note, I was packaging, smoke testing, then uploading to the PPA but I lost interest once I started seeing the panel plugins in GTK3 form. :/
[20:50] <knome> i'm not saying it's waterproof, i'm saying i think it's better to land the stuff now than to 17.04 because at that point we have little control over telling people what their options are - because they have picked their choice already
[20:50] <flocculant> if I wasn't me (likely to do this anyway) and I found I was forced to test for a whole cycle then I would seriously consider moving
[20:51] <knome> Unit193, if it's the visual side you're not happy with, then we might want to discuss this with ochosi and see if there are any way to make stuff look better
[20:51] <flocculant> and you're right in that pov, now rather than 17.04, when people have made a choice - however what you're talking about is making a choice for them
[20:51] <Unit193> knome: Visual and responsive, just like how Firefox is less responsive since it moved to GTK3 too.
[20:51] <flocculant> unless people know befoer they install
[20:52] <knome> Unit193, yeah
[20:52] <knome> flocculant, we still have time to communicate that to our users.
[20:52] <flocculant> yup
[20:52] <Unit193> knome: Please, keep my personal and part of the team opinions seperate.
[20:52] <knome> flocculant, and we can add disclaimers to the website with any 16.04+ releases
[20:53] <flocculant> what would be best imo would be things in ppa asap for people to test - even half broken maybe
[20:53] <knome> Unit193, i'm not sure how that's possible though... but sure, i understand that there's "what Unit193 wants" and "what Unit193 thinks is sensible for xubuntu"
[20:53] <Unit193> (Otherwise I get stuck not being able to say my personal opinion.)
[20:54] <knome> i think everybody should say their personal opinion, and when it's time to vote, or when specifically asked, do what they think is the best for xubuntu
[20:54] <knome> everything i say is always my personal opinion
[20:55] <flocculant> anyway - I'll just say this and be off for now
[20:56] <flocculant> until there's something concrete for me to have an opinion - either personal or for xubuntu - I'll hold fire :)
[20:56] <flocculant> night all
[20:56] <knome> good night flocculant 
[21:03] <Unit193> knome: http://u193.ga/c/x4ax/ - http://u193.ga/c/8y2y/ btw.
[21:03] <knome> .ga?
[21:04] <Unit193> https://sigma.unit193.net/c/x4ax/ - https://sigma.unit193.net/c/8y2y/
[21:04] <knome> gvfs-backends
[21:04] <knome> eh
[21:04] <knome> that was needed for something to work
[21:04] <Unit193> gvfs, basically. :P
[21:04] <knome> :P
[21:06] <Unit193> https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10028 - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1014589 - https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=781913
[21:06] <knome> isn't the support for samba kind of ending anyway, or have i misunderstood?
[21:07] <Unit193> ...Not that I've heard, at all.
[21:07] <knome> then i've probably misunderstood something
[21:09] <Unit193> https://github.com/rickysarraf/apt-offline/pull/32
[21:09] <knome> :)
[21:09] <Unit193> py2 seems not too hard (except locally, of course! :P ), GTK2...
[21:10] <knome> heh
[21:10] <knome> i know
[21:10] <Unit193> Also, ISO build.  Depends, if it's drop-in, then sure.  Though would there be a point?
[21:11] <knome> i don't know
[21:11] <knome> maybe
[21:21] <Unit193> Anything else?
[21:23]  * knome shrugs
[21:34] <ochosi> ok back
[21:35] <Unit193> ochosi: Thoughts?  NOW!  We want them all this second!
[21:35] <Unit193> :D
[21:37] <ochosi> still reading, sry :)
[21:39] <ochosi> ok, so in terms of panel plugins i'm happy to improve the look and feel
[21:39] <ochosi> i've so far only worked on the ones i use personally (which are not that many tbh) and i'm ok with their looks
[21:39] <ochosi> lemme know which ones concern you (although i vaguely remember seeing some awful switch-checkbox combinations in screenshots)
[21:40] <Unit193> I don't remember anymore, it was in VM and I bailed.
[21:40] <ochosi> :]
[21:40] <ochosi> pushing everything to PPAs is a totally valid approach
[21:41] <ochosi> i guess we should probably have a vote if those are the two options the team considers (PPA everything Gtk3 vs Ship everything Gtk3)
[21:42] <ochosi> what would be great is if we could ship the development releases of the libs that are backward compatible
[21:42] <ochosi> e.g. libxfce4ui i would really suggest we ship 4.13.0 because the changes don't break anything gtk2
[21:42] <ochosi> and we'll need it for some things gtk3.20
[21:42] <ochosi> and there might be more of those candidates
[21:43] <ochosi> (to clarify what i meant earlier when i said "ship development releases")
[21:43] <ochosi> i would never suggest shipping xfce4-session untested, that's far too delicate
[21:43] <Unit193> Understandable and can't say I really disagree there either, in regards to exo, garcon, and libxfce4ui.
[21:43] <Unit193> Personally I'm also fine with gdbus ports.
[21:44] <ochosi> applications like notifyd have independent stable releases and imo we should ship the latest (unless there are known showstopper bugs)
[21:44] <Unit193> :'(
[21:44] <Unit193> OK... :(
[21:44] <ochosi> why so sad? :)
[21:45] <Unit193> That one just goes back to my personal opinion! :P  (GTK3 is less responsive, switches are fugly.)
[21:46] <ochosi> less responsive in what way? slower?
[21:48] <Unit193> Yeah.
[21:48] <ochosi> haven't noticed any differences lately, but then again i have a fairly new laptop
[21:49] <Unit193> Seriously notice it when the computer is under stress and I try to un-minimize firefox.  I could nearly take a nap waiting.
[21:49] <Unit193> Menus as well, hence why xfce4-panel doesn't sound fun to get ported, but anyway, not my point.
[21:50] <Unit193> < Unit193> Please, keep my personal and part of the team opinions separate.
[21:50] <ochosi> i'm taking your personal opinion just as seriously though, just as a note
[21:51] <ochosi> as long as xubuntu is xfce i think there won't be much choice
[21:51] <knome> tell him one more time he's heard and he'll faint
[21:51] <Unit193> (And the whole "GTK3 looks like something to go on a tablet, not a freaking desktop!" :P )
[21:51] <ochosi> upstream xfce has decided to go to gtk3 so i guess we should support that as good as we can
[21:52] <ochosi> heh, well i think that's very overstated, gtk3 still contains gtk2
[21:52] <Unit193> Right.
[21:52] <ochosi> or most of it
[21:52] <knome> or if we don't want to, let other people take over
[21:52] <ochosi> they just added new fancy widgets and decided to use js on the desktop
[21:52] <ochosi> (and overthrew their HIG)
[21:52] <ochosi> the toolkit itself is still as usable as gtk2 for "regular" desktop applications
[21:53] <ochosi> just depends on the app developers what they want to go for, design-wise (as it always has)
[21:53] <ochosi> ^ ochosi's personal opinion
[21:53] <ochosi> ;)
[21:53] <Unit193> Mine being that I lost motivation to PPA all of Xfce4. :P
[21:53] <ochosi> right
[21:54] <ochosi> that's something to take into account when deciding whether PPAing everything gtk3 is feasible
[21:54] <Unit193> Don't see why not.
[21:56] <ochosi> well, nobody with motivation to do it? :p
[21:56] <Unit193> Sean?
[21:56] <knome> we can't load everything to him
[21:56] <Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3/+packages is the one you're supposed to be using, but I actually did grab a few more: https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3/+packages
[21:57] <Unit193> knome: Not trying to.
[21:57] <ochosi> i would hope he would help me with porting xfce stuff rather than with PPAing
[21:57] <Unit193> ...That would put everything on me though.
[21:57] <knome> i didn't say you were, but you've said today you didn't have the motivation to finish and then pointed to sean, so i could imagine why somebody could feel that way..
[21:58] <knome> everything with the gtk3 ppa
[21:58] <knome> i'm referring to the whole xubuntu development stuff
[21:58] <Unit193> Oh?
[21:58] <knome> "sean" can't be the answer to everything
[21:58] <knome> (neither can "simon", "unit193" or "pasi")
[21:59] <ochosi> Unit193: we should really find more people who know how to package then
[21:59] <ochosi> :)
[22:00] <Unit193> (Lack of motivation coming from the "This all feels like a downgrade" and "Nobody is really 'using' this but me, and I don't like where this is going anyway", with a touch of "I have to smoke test all of these.. :/")
[22:00] <Unit193> ochosi: Is there a nice tree somewhere? :D
[22:00] <knome> it doesn't really matter where the lack of motivation comes from in terms of getting it done
[22:01] <Unit193> Could, some things are fixable.
[22:01] <knome> i don't mean somebody should do something they don't have motivation to do
[22:01] <Unit193> Well, in the end, sort of yeah.
[22:02] <knome> no, i don't
[22:02] <Unit193> Fine, I do.
[22:02] <knome> i appreciate if people do things regardless of it though
[22:02] <knome> but i can't force them
[22:02] <knome> and won't try to
[22:03] <ochosi> anyway, if you are motivated enough to put together a list of visual deficiencies or at least a starting point (as in: let's start with this particular plugin) we can talk
[22:03] <ochosi> gaston seemed very open to suggestions anyway
[22:04] <Unit193> ...Am I supposed to be honest or positive? :P
[22:05] <knome> which one do you think can help xfce/xubuntu more?
[22:05] <ochosi> just be yourself ;)
[22:06] <knome> ochosi, one thing that's high on my list is that everything seems to have a lot of padding, and i'd like to make the amount smaller
[22:06] <ochosi> guess you gotta be more concrete there
[22:06] <ochosi> the stuff i recently ported has exactly the same padding as in gtk2
[22:06] <knome> textboxes
[22:06] <ochosi> the themes might not be the same
[22:06] <knome> from what i've seen so far, that is
[22:07] <knome> if the GUI size is the same as with gtk2, then i'm good
[22:07] <knome> there are some gtk3 widgets i don't like either, like the combined text input/scale
[22:07] <knome> or whatever it's called
[22:07] <knome> it's too easy to click the scale when you're trying to hit the text input
[22:08] <ochosi> where could i see that widget?
[22:08] <knome> or was that a qt widget?
[22:08] <knome> i guess i'm a bit tired :)
[22:08] <ochosi> the one from the gimp?
[22:08] <knome> in inkscape...
[22:08] <knome> i guess it's in gimp too
[22:08] <ochosi> right, those are both gtk2 applications :D
[22:08] <Unit193> ochosi: https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/docs/xfce4-gtk3.html#_needs_smoke_testing added that.
[22:09] <knome> ochosi, ok, then i hate the gtk2 widget and the gtk3 equivalent, and recommend avoiding that widget in porting :P
[22:09] <ochosi> knome: not sure there even is a gtk3 equivalent, at least i haven't seen it anywhere. and i agree. that widget is *the worst*
[22:09] <knome> yep.
[22:09] <ochosi> Unit193: kewl
[22:15] <Unit193> Know who can smoke test?  Basically, just add the PPA, upgrade, add the plugin, press a couple buttons and make sure nothing obvious is broken.
[22:19] <Unit193> ochosi: Wait, are you volunteering to learn how to package?! :D
[22:20] <bluesabre> evening all, catching up on backlog
[22:20] <ochosi> Unit193: nah, unless you're volunteering to learn how to write and maintain gtk+2&3 themes :)
[22:21] <Unit193> Oh heck no I'm not.
[22:21] <Unit193> (Also if I did, I'd be maintaining a different theme. >_>)
[22:21] <Unit193> bluesabre: Aren't you supposed to update https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.14/roadmap for exo?
[22:23] <bluesabre> alrighty, caught up
[22:23] <bluesabre> at this point, maybe dev libraries in 16.10, I wouldn't suggest anything else with FF next week
[22:24] <bluesabre> PPA for the things we care about sounds sensible
[22:24] <Unit193> Easy to update mid cycle too.
[22:24] <bluesabre> If folks are interested in contributing to xfce in ubuntu (but not xubuntu), we can put together an xfce team and related branches, PPAs, etc
[22:25] <bluesabre> to reduce xubuntu-developer load
[22:26] <bluesabre> that obviously requires maintenance, but we might be able to get myth/studio folks to also join in if they are so inclined
[22:26] <bluesabre> I know they are kind of stepping back a bit, but just a thought
[22:27] <bluesabre> ochosi: you indicated that you have a gtk 3.20 ppa for xenial?
[22:27] <Unit193> Myth is going into very low maintenance mode, just their own packages.
[22:28] <bluesabre> k
[22:28] <Unit193> I don't think Studio right now hasa very many decent packagers.
[22:29] <bluesabre> that clears things up for me
[22:30] <bluesabre> but that will remain on the table, and I'm happy to help folks along if they are interested in doing something to that sort
[22:30] <Unit193> (I could be wrong, but though Kaj was the one that did most of the packaging, and he's recently handed the flavor off to someone else.)
[22:30] <Unit193> bluesabre: OH, we should add xfdashy to supported.
[22:30] <knome> don't know about the packaging but yes he has
[22:30] <bluesabre> Unit193: indeed, and the various *-gtk-themes
[22:31] <bluesabre> I'm sure you saw my email, so you knew that already :D
[22:31] <bluesabre> (*that as in that was my weekend plan at least)
[22:31] <Unit193> bluesabre: Not really arc, though.  Xubuntu doesn't currently use it and Shimmer has nothing to do with it. :3
[22:31] <bluesabre> yup
[22:31] <bluesabre> same
[22:31] <Unit193> And yeah, thanks I did see it.
[22:32] <bluesabre> Unit193: thanks for all the links, I think that helps me for things I'm planning
[22:32] <bluesabre> and I have an exo package
[22:33] <Unit193> Links?  And a good exo package? :----D
[22:33] <bluesabre> good...ish?
[22:33] <bluesabre> https://cloud.smdavis.us/index.php/s/QI8k4bIKdwVJ5KZ
[22:33] <bluesabre> I'll probably toss it into the ppa tonight
[22:34] <bluesabre> ochosi tested it, so at the very least its usable ;)
[22:34] <Unit193> (I was kidding!)
[22:34] <Unit193> Yep, sounds good!
[22:39] <Unit193> He released another version of eyes fixing the FTBFS with older GTK3, and we also have .20 now too.  Test building no than to staging it goes.
[22:40] <bluesabre> cool
[22:40] <Unit193> ...Wanna smoke it? :3
[22:42] <bluesabre> I can check out the package... might take me a bit though, watching videos on a friday after work, motivation < 0.01
[22:42] <Unit193> Hahah, yeeeah understandable. :D
[22:43] <knome> bluesabre, of which unit? :P
[22:48]  * Unit193 tempted to just upload eyes-plugin to the repo...
[22:48]  * bluesabre has no way of stopping Unit193
[22:49] <Unit193> Well, "I'm your commanding officer, stop now." would do it.
[22:51] <bluesabre> nah
[23:10] <ochosi> bluesabre: you mean like this one? :) https://launchpad.net/~ochosi/+archive/ubuntu/gtk320-xenial
[23:11] <Unit193> I remember helping on that one. :P
[23:11] <ochosi> yup
[23:12] <ochosi> anyway, sleepy time
[23:12] <ochosi> night y'all
[23:41] <bluesabre> Unit193: have that eyes package for me to test?
[23:41] <Unit193> bluesabre: Yep!  Right https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-eyes-plugin/4.5.0-0ubuntu1
[23:41] <Unit193> :>
[23:41] <bluesabre> works for me
[23:42] <bluesabre> :D
[23:42] <Unit193> I did test it, looked exactly the same even.
[23:42] <Unit193> (And it's so fringe that nobody really cares, soo.)