[06:56] <Kilos> nhaines ping
[07:42] <Kilos> who knows what timezone nhaines is in now?
[07:42] <Kilos> morning all
[07:48] <svij> he's in California
[07:49] <Kilos> aha ty svij 
[07:56] <Kilos> i will wait for him to wake up
[15:12] <Kilos> genii  woooooot
[15:12] <Kilos> hello
[15:12]  * Kilos waits for coffee
[15:12] <Kilos> hehe
[15:17]  * genii roasts some freshly-picked beans, grinds them with an old-style hand operated grinder, carefully measures the correct amount for a perfect mug of coffee into the french press, adds water which is not quite boiling,steeps it exactly 60 seconds, then operates the press plunger and pours Kilos a mug
[15:18]  * genii wanders back to work
[15:18] <Kilos> ty ty ty ty
[15:19] <genii> :D
[15:19] <Kilos> :D
[19:38] <ahoneybun> nhaines: what is up with the ubuntu-pk and ubuntu-bd ownership stuff?
[20:03] <ahoneybun> mhall119: ping
[20:11] <mhall119> ahoneybun: pong
[20:12] <ahoneybun> your on the CC still right?
[20:12] <mhall119> yup
[20:12] <ahoneybun> can you go into #ubuntu-pk and -bd
[20:13] <mhall119> ahoneybun: ok
[20:27] <nhaines> ahoneybun: I am waiting for documentation of proof of attempts to contact the administration of each of those teams.
[20:27] <wxl> nhaines: as Kilos said on the tikit, that is within the logs of the LP mailserver as well as the IRC logs.
[20:30] <ahoneybun> wxl: it's a lot of logs to go though
[20:31] <wxl> ahoneybun: no kidding, but he didn't keep track of them. grep will take care of it, though. at least among those that have access to said logs (i don't)
[20:31] <ahoneybun> all irclogs are public
[20:31] <wxl> not in a grepable format
[20:31] <ahoneybun> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
[20:31] <ahoneybun> well
[20:31] <ahoneybun> there is txt files there too
[20:31] <ahoneybun> not just html
[20:32] <wxl> well you can't grep -R <whatever that guy's nick is> 2016/* | grep "ubuntu-bd"
[20:33] <wxl> if you want to pull down all the files, i'd be happy to perform the command on them XD
[20:34] <ahoneybun> I understand but I also understand mhall119's and nhaines's POV about proof
[20:34] <genii> Just recentlysomeone else was wondering if there was a better way than a recursive wget on irclogs. Someone should digest them into weeks or months or something for separate download
[20:34] <wxl> it's there, it's just hard for kilos to get to
[20:35] <wxl> impossible when it comes to the emails
[20:35] <mhall119> wxl: google-fu can do that
[20:35] <wxl> mhall119: with the LP mail logs?
[20:35] <mhall119> oh, mail logs....still might be able to
[20:36] <wxl> mhall119: assumedly not. they should be private
[20:37] <mhall119> oh, you're talking about the "contact this person" emails, I thought you were talking about mailinglist emails
[20:38] <wxl> mhall119: you got it
[20:38] <ahoneybun> on LP?
[20:38] <wxl> yep
[20:38] <ahoneybun> that should be tracked somewhere I would think
[20:38] <wxl> privately, of course
[20:39] <mhall119> nhaines: I've recommended that Kilos  make one more attempt to contact the admins
[20:39] <mhall119> if they still don't respond in a reasonable time, I think that's good enough, do you?
[20:39] <wxl> please define a reasonable time in this email
[20:41] <mhall119> since Kilos is going to be unavailable for a while starting next week, I suggest Friday of this week
[20:41] <wxl> make sure to ask him to cc everyone
[20:42] <mhall119> wouldn't CC'ing loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com be enough?
[20:42] <mhall119> in the RT, you can't CC from the launchpad contact form, can you?
[20:42] <wxl> yes but clearly he didn't do that before :)
[20:42] <Kilos> how do you do that from LP contact this user
[20:42] <ahoneybun> just add to the CC list
[20:42] <mhall119> Kilos: I'm assuming they don't have an email address displayed on their launchpad profile
[20:42] <Kilos> il look again
[20:43] <Kilos> ill feedback tomorrow
[20:43] <mhall119> I just checked, there is no CC field
[20:43] <mhall119> https://launchpad.net/%7Ewxl/+contactuser
[20:43] <Kilos> but irc logs show that pk was completely dead
[20:43] <Kilos> hggdh helped fix that'
[20:43] <mhall119> IRC logs are not sufficient here
[20:43] <wxl> right so it has to be a normal email
[20:44] <mhall119> wxl: oh, duh, I'm being stupid
[20:44] <mhall119> Kilos: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-pk at the bottom are the email addresses for the admins
[20:44] <mhall119> send it there and CC the loco-council
[20:45] <Kilos> ok
[20:45] <mhall119> same for -bd
[20:45] <Kilos> will do
[20:46] <Kilos> thanks for the help guys
[20:46] <Kilos> i gotta crash now
[20:47] <ahoneybun> thanks mhall119
[20:55] <mhall119> thank you guys
[20:57] <Kilos> eih
[20:57] <Kilos> i will have to first subscribe to those lists
[20:57] <Kilos> You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has
[20:57] <Kilos> been automatically rejected.  If you think that your messages are
[20:57] <Kilos> being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at
[20:57] <Kilos> ubuntu-pk-owner@lists.ubuntu.com.
[20:57] <wxl> Kilos: that doesn't exactly seem like much of an attempt to reach out to them, either
[20:58] <Kilos> i have already chatted to ekushey on irc months ago
[20:58] <mhall119> Kilos: did you email the list, or bajwa at ubuntu.com, fouadbajwa at gmail.com
[20:59] <Kilos> the list
[20:59] <Kilos> from https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-pk
[20:59] <mhall119> Kilos: send it to those two who are listed in the "Ubuntu-pk list run by .." at the bottom of the mailman page
[20:59] <mhall119> for -bd it's russell.john at ubuntu.com
[20:59] <Kilos> oh cool ty
[21:00] <Kilos> ekushey is russel john
[21:01] <mhall119> Kilos: np
[21:01] <mhall119> hopefully that method of contact works better
[21:01] <Kilos> trying
[21:02] <Kilos> lol what must i say to make a better attempt at reaching out to them
[21:02] <mhall119> emailing those addresses (and CC'ing the Loco Council) should be enough
[21:03] <Kilos> with no message?
[21:03] <Kilos> whew
[21:05] <nhaines> mhall119: yes, I think that's just what's needed, thanks.
[21:05] <Kilos> i had to say something
[21:05] <Kilos> check the mail please
[21:07] <mhall119> well, yes with a message
[21:07] <Kilos> i got an auto reply from pk
[21:07] <Kilos> Thank you for posting your message to the Ubuntu-Linux Pakistan
[21:07] <Kilos> mailing list system. Please be rest assured that your message will be
[21:07] <Kilos> forwarded to the mailing system for approval and distribution to
[21:07] <Kilos> Ubuntu-Linux Pakistan.
[21:07] <Kilos> is that good enough
[21:07] <nhaines> Kilos: you are free to ask them to add new administrators, but you can't do it on behalf of the LoCo Council.
[21:08] <Kilos> ok but whe n i originally asked for permission to try revive locos wxl said go ahead
[21:08] <nhaines> Can you just have the conversation with ubuntu-pk admins over email instead of demanding that they meet you every single day in #ubuntu-pk?
[21:08] <Kilos> thats permissions right
[21:09] <Kilos> they never answered the last mail
[21:09] <nhaines> Not to demand specific administrative changes.
[21:09] <Kilos> and i meant by that im in the channel daily not for them to be there daily
[21:09] <nhaines> That's not really what you said, though.
[21:10] <wxl> nhaines: my feeling is that if he took the time to find out what the situation is, then we could act upon that. i should have asked him to include some degree of proof.
[21:10] <nhaines> wxl: I agree.  But then I need a summary and a couple links.
[21:11] <Kilos> i have mailed you the feedback from the dead -pk channel nhaines 
[21:11] <Kilos> that was when there was nearly no one there
[21:11] <nhaines> Kilos: I know it's hard work.  And it should be: you're asking us to forcibly remove administrators from a team.  On the other hand, obviously administrators who are no longer involved should be removed.
[21:11] <Kilos> nhaines admins of a dead team?
[21:11] <wxl> Kilos: and that's what i'm saying. it's a fair and equitable process.
[21:11] <mhall119> not all teams use IRC, just because IRC isn't active doesn't mean the mailing list admins aren't
[21:12] <nhaines> mhall119: in this case, my understanding is that PK uses Facebook, but Kilos feels that this is inappropriate and should not be considered because Facebook is proprietary.
[21:12] <Kilos> i was told personally by the -bd admin that the list is for announcements only
[21:12] <mhall119> a dead IRC channel might be grounds to take over an IRC channel, but not to take over a mailing list
[21:12] <wxl> Kilos: i tend to think of bureaucracy/red tape as unnecessary action. i do think that having proof of an attempt to try to reach out to the people that were installed as admins is necessary to respect the contribution they (at least onee) gave
[21:13] <nhaines> Kilos: on the bright side, once we figure out that ownership *should* be changed, and know whom to give it to, everything happens really quickly.
[21:13] <wxl> nhaines: don't you think that the LoCo should provide a minimum of services (mailing list, irc), since all of our infrastructure for the LoCo project as a whole suggests as such?
[21:13] <Kilos> the mailing lists had applicants waiting for approval for 2 years when i started there
[21:13] <mhall119> anywhere that the community wished to meet and communicate is valid, IMO
[21:14] <nhaines> wxl: as a starting point, but we shouldn't penalize people for meeting in places that work for them.
[21:14] <wxl> mhall119: i agree that using Facebook is reasonable. i *DON'T* think that having other forms of contact that don't get used is very reasonable.
[21:14] <Kilos> mhall119 this all started because a guy applied for ubuntu membership with no support or guidance from bd loco
[21:15] <Kilos> even on facebook
[21:15] <mhall119> well forms of contact that don't get used aren't very...useful, regardless of their reasonableness
[21:15] <Kilos> peeps cant become ubuntu members from facebook
[21:15] <wxl> nhaines: by not explaining on the mailing list intro or the channel topic or the wiki page that Facebook is the only way the group connects is a bad thing in my mind
[21:15] <mhall119> Kilos: did he have testimonials from any Ubuntu Members? Those people should have been able to assist
[21:15] <mhall119> Kilos: sure they can
[21:15] <Kilos> no one helped
[21:16] <mhall119> that's not a problem with Facebook then
[21:16] <mhall119> that's a problem with the team
[21:16] <Kilos> he came alone with no knowledge or guidance at all
[21:16] <mhall119> so, again, if he worked with Ubuntu Members, anywhere, they should have helped him
[21:16] <Kilos> arent we leaders to lead
[21:16] <mhall119> if he hasn't, then he most likely wasn't ready to apply
[21:17] <Kilos> the person in question is pavlushka
[21:17] <mhall119> if the -bd Facebook is very active, but has no Members, then we should be encourating the active ones to apply
[21:17] <Kilos> they cant apply without using irc
[21:17] <wxl> *IS* the -bd Facebook active?
[21:17] <mhall119> is the Facebook group public, so the membership board can see the activity?
[21:17] <Kilos> over 400 mebers
[21:17] <wxl> nevermind membership
[21:17] <wxl> is it active?
[21:17] <mhall119> how much activity?
[21:18] <Kilos> i dont use facebook
[21:18] <mhall119> ahoneybun: can people apply for Membership via email only, and not being on IRC?
[21:18] <Kilos> lol and i hate emailing all the time too
[21:18] <wxl> mhall119: theoretically that's possible but i don't think there's been too much precedent for that.
[21:18] <Kilos> they also need to make wiki pages
[21:19] <mhall119> wxl: if that's the case, we can change that
[21:19] <mhall119> Kilos: yes, that is still a requirement (and a problem, given the wiki's lockdown)
[21:19] <wxl> mhall119: i certainly havent' dealt with a situation like that. i think we've done votes by email before, but we don't expressly make that an option. we don't do that for the LC either
[21:19] <mhall119> we can ask the membership boards if we can come up with an alternative to the wiki
[21:20] <nhaines> I mean, Etherpad might work in a pinch.
[21:20] <wxl> mhall119: and if what i get from you is "we should be available to all different forms of contact" then no loco should be *EXCLUSIVELY* facebook
[21:20] <mhall119> and IRC too, if those are proving to be a barrier
[21:20] <wxl> nhaines: etherpad requires membership, though. which could be a problem
[21:20] <mhall119> wxl: why not?
[21:21] <wxl> one thing that should be assumed is that ALL members and groups should use launchpad
[21:21] <mhall119> wxl: etherpad only requires ~ubuntu-etherpad membership, which we can freely grant now that the wiki isn't using it
[21:21] <wxl> and yet in this case, as i understand it, people couldn't even join the loco
[21:21] <wxl> mhall119: oh it is totally open now?
[21:21] <mhall119> popey: ^^ the wiki isn't using ~ubuntu-etherpad anymore is it?
[21:21] <pleia2> it's not
[21:21] <mhall119> pleia2: thanks
[21:21] <mhall119> so etherpad would be an alterative tothe wiki for membership applications
[21:22] <pleia2> wiki is ~ubuntu-wiki-editors
[21:22] <Kilos> right people were waiting for over 2 years for lp approval
[21:22] <mhall119> LP approval?
[21:22] <wxl> and that right there is a fundamental problem
[21:22] <Kilos> thats already proof that a loco is dead
[21:22] <mhall119> no...it's not
[21:23] <wxl> well i think maintainence of the lp group is pretty essential
[21:23] <Kilos> conventional loco that is
[21:23] <nhaines> It's a problem to fix, but LP teams are useful for translations and that's kind of it, as far as LoCos go.
[21:23] <mhall119> most locos don't use LP membership very much
[21:23] <wxl> huh
[21:23] <wxl> so maybe we should stop requiring people to use lp to be a member?
[21:24] <nhaines> An Ubuntu member?
[21:24] <wxl> well if it's not important for locos i'm not sure why it's important to be an lp member
[21:24] <wxl> s/lp/ubuntu/
[21:24] <nhaines> Because that's how Ubuntu membership is *tracked*.
[21:25] <wxl> i would argue lp membership is how membership is tracked as well
[21:25] <wxl> argh
[21:25] <wxl> loco membership
[21:26] <nhaines> I am on record as considering LP completely useless for the California LoCo outside of logo hosting and the sole reason we are using it for anything is because the LoCo Council said if we didn't we'd be dissolved.
[21:26] <ahoneybun> opps
[21:26] <nhaines> We use it for leadership votes, too, but my opinion on that is also public record.
[21:27] <ahoneybun> mhall119: we do our meetings on IRC but they can send it on email
[21:27] <ahoneybun> appling I mean
[21:27] <mhall119> my stance is that we shouldn't put requirements on teams unless there's an adequate reason for it being required
[21:27] <wxl> isn't the LoCo Team how we keep track of who's verified and who's not?
[21:28] <ahoneybun> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/NewMember
[21:28] <mhall119> teams are verified, not people, and the team can be verified without having all of it's members on LP
[21:28] <wxl> huh
[21:28] <nhaines> Yes, but the list of individuals in the team don't serve California much purpose.
[21:28] <wxl> ok, so what i'm hearing is:
[21:28] <wxl> LP is only valuable for the LoCo Team, not the team members
[21:28] <ahoneybun> mhall119: you can put yourself on our of our Board pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
[21:28] <wxl> there's no expectation that any LoCo Team would actually accept members
[21:29] <ahoneybun> or send a email with links to LP and Wiki pages
[21:29] <wxl> there's no expectation of any amount of services or communication methods that a LoCo Team should provide
[21:29] <wxl> correct?
[21:29] <nhaines> I think that's a little reductionist.
[21:29] <wxl> is it?
[21:30] <nhaines> The purpose of a LoCo team is to gather Ubuntu enthusiasts who are interested in active promotion of Ubuntu.
[21:30] <wxl> and from what i'm hearing there's no expectation as to how exactly that's done, right?
[21:30] <nhaines> Based on those members, they'll focus on marketing, design, translations, coding, events, support, etc.
[21:30] <wxl> just that it does get done.
[21:30] <ahoneybun> in a similar area
[21:31] <ahoneybun> let users know there are others in that area
[21:32] <nhaines> But while I would want a new team to start off with Launchpad, an IRC channel, and a mailing list, I wouldn't punish them if they all ended up in Slack, for example, if there were a way for that activity to be recorded.
[21:32] <wxl> so first of, nhaines, to be clear, i'm not trying to be inflammatory
[21:32] <ahoneybun> but what about facebook?
[21:32] <nhaines> I think the ends justify the means.
[21:32] <wxl> or argumentative
[21:32] <nhaines> wxl: good!  me either.
[21:33] <wxl> nhaines: great. so let's work together to hash out what reasonable expectations are. right now they're either ill defined or not consistent with what it sounds like the coucnil would accept
[21:33] <wxl> so the way i hear it:
[21:34] <wxl> 1. every team should start of with LP, IRC, ML. right?
[21:34] <nhaines> Right.
[21:34] <wxl> 2. every method of communication is possible as long as it's capable of being recorded? publicly?
[21:35] <wxl> only for LC/CC?
[21:35] <ahoneybun> there is a slack <-> irc bot so it is possible to record
[21:35] <wxl> i would think it would need to be public. i.e. you shouldn't need an account to see it. but maybe that's not appropriate
[21:37] <wxl> i would also add that:
[21:37] <wxl> 3. every method of communication of interaction is maintained. if it becomes deprecated, that should be clear.
[21:37] <wxl> and perhaps that:
[21:38] <wxl> 4. some web resource is a requirement, whether a wiki page, a web site, an etherpad, whatever, to list all the resources available.
[21:38] <nhaines> That sounds like pretty reasonable guidelines to me.
[21:39] <wxl> perhaps we should submit this to review by the LC/CC and if all is well, implement it on the wiki?
[21:39] <mhall119> wxl: I would say public is more importable than recorded
[21:39] <wxl> mhall119: that's consistent with my feelings
[21:40] <nhaines> wxl: yup, I'd like to get more eyes on it.
[21:40] <wxl> ok i'll get on it right now
[21:40] <wxl> thanks for the feedback mhall119 nhaines :)
[21:40] <wxl> ahoneybun too XD
[21:40] <ahoneybun> I was about to +1
[21:41] <nhaines> It's important to take things on a case-by-case basis when needed, or else we could just replace the LCC with a shell script.  :)
[21:41] <wxl> that's why i think it's good ot have guidelines
[21:41] <wxl> they're not rules, of course
[21:41] <wxl> but if we don't have good guidelines it can lead to outcomes like what we're dealing with now
[21:42] <Kilos> correct
[21:42] <ahoneybun> guidelines to handle dieing LoCos and rebuilding them
[21:42] <Kilos> and no single person should have ownership 
[21:42] <wxl> THAT would be good too ahoneybun 
[21:42] <nhaines> There's no reason a single person shouldn't have ownership.
[21:43] <ahoneybun> also how to handle ownership
[21:43] <ahoneybun> nhaines: that I disagree with
[21:43] <Kilos> then you will end up like pk
[21:43] <ahoneybun> I split my lead with others like mhall119
[21:43] <wxl> ahoneybun: of course not all teams may have that luxury
[21:43] <ahoneybun> at least 3 people have access to most things
[21:43] <nhaines> ahoneybun: there's no reason you shoudln't.
[21:43] <Kilos> where ownership gave rights to one person to control everyone else
[21:44] <wxl> *IF* there are good guidelines on how to handle ownership and how to judge the state of a loco and if the case is the loco is dead or dying, how to rebuild it and transfer ownership, then we should be good
[21:44] <nhaines> But a lot of teams start very, very small, and bureaucracy kills.
[21:44] <ahoneybun> of course wxl but we need a way to take it back if that ONE person goes missing in -pk case
[21:44] <mhall119> ahoneybun: ha! like I'm doing any leading in the florida team these days
[21:44] <ahoneybun> mhall119: but if I go AWOL or something I know you, Chris or Keith can do something about it
[21:44] <wxl> of course as we open ourselves up to other means of communications, we restrict our ability to get control of those mediums and transfer ownership
[21:44] <nhaines> ahoneybun: I would probably argue about the definition of "we".
[21:45] <ahoneybun> the LC or CC
[21:45] <nhaines> But there *is* a way to transfer ownership.  And here we are.
[21:45] <ahoneybun> try as I'm not in either
[21:45] <ahoneybun> *true as
[21:45] <wxl> nhaines: well, not with facebook or slack.
[21:45] <mhall119> this is true, but not reason enough to not allow or accept them
[21:45] <ahoneybun> wxl and I saw what happens with facebook
[21:45] <mhall119> IMO
[21:46]  * ahoneybun wants to be on the LC one day
[21:46] <ahoneybun> so this is good exp
[21:46] <nhaines> wxl: or Twitter, or Google+, or whatever other social media out there I also don't use.  Instagram?
[21:46] <wxl> nhaines: right. what mhall119 said.
[21:47] <ahoneybun> Instagram is not  possible 
[21:47] <mhall119> presumably Canonical could use the trademark to gain and transfer ownership if it came to it
[21:47] <ahoneybun> RT would handle it
[21:47] <ahoneybun> or could I mean
[21:53] <ahoneybun> nhaines: would it be a good idea to maybe try 3times to reach the owner, wait maybe 2-3weeks or so?
[21:53] <ahoneybun> before taking ownership back?
[21:54] <nhaines> Well, I'd have been happier if I had dates of attempted contact and contents of the message.
[21:54] <ahoneybun> yea add that as a requirement
[21:54] <Kilos> right guys i need to sleep now, midnight here. keep well all of you and thank you for the help. i will feedback on whether i got replies on friday
[21:54] <nhaines> They've been contacted before.  I'd give them maybe two weeks to respond and start a dialogue.
[21:54] <ahoneybun> or highly encourged
[21:54] <ahoneybun> night Kilos
[21:55] <nhaines> Kilos: I know it's a lot of work, and thank you for taking it on for others.  We may have refined your approach, but I really do appreciate your intentions.  :)
[21:55] <ahoneybun> same, good work Kilos
[21:55] <Kilos> thanks nhaines 
[21:55] <Kilos> :D
[21:56] <Kilos> in future ill try keep record of everything
[21:56] <ahoneybun> that would be great
[21:57] <Kilos> but in the case of bd im sure you will find in the logs where he says he is too busy for loco work or ubuntu work
[21:57] <Kilos> have a good day guys
[21:57] <wxl> and done
[21:57] <wxl> thanks ya'l
[21:57] <ahoneybun> wxl: sent a email or something?
[21:57] <wxl> ahoneybun: yeah to LC/CC for more input
[21:58] <ahoneybun> did you make a summary of all this or something?
[21:58] <wxl> more or less yes
[21:58] <wxl> you got the content of that message already :)
[21:58] <ahoneybun> I did?
[21:58]  * ahoneybun was watching a movie
[21:58] <wxl> yeah it's essentially a summary
[21:59] <ahoneybun> I'd like to add it to a etherpad or something for live edit
[21:59] <Kilos> oh sorry i sent last mail from my wrong email address ms.kilos
[21:59] <ahoneybun> right since I was in the room
[22:00] <ahoneybun> wxl: can you add it to a etherpad or something for live edit
[22:00] <wxl> um
[22:00] <wxl> basically it's those 4 points above
[22:00] <wxl> i'm not sure i really changed them v  ery much
[22:00] <wxl> 1. every team starts with the basics, but are not required to have them
[22:00] <ahoneybun> oh not the revive loco and such stuff?
[22:00] <wxl> 2. every communication method is possible, as long as it is public
[22:01] <wxl> 3. every communication should be maintained or else it should be clearly communicated as deprecated
[22:01] <ahoneybun> I think we should add the number of contact that must be tried, timeframe to hear back and keep logs
[22:01] <wxl> 4. a web resource of some kind to track communication methods is a requirement
[22:01] <wxl> ahoneybun: yeah i added a request for input on that subject but nothing more than that.
[22:01] <ahoneybun> ok cool