[06:41] http://askubuntu.com/questions/817572/openstack-fails-to-install-caused-by-juju === simon1 is now known as SimonKLB === frankban|afk is now known as frankban [09:01] Hello Juju world [09:02] hey kjackal [09:03] Hi magicaltrout! [09:16] hey kjackal and magicaltrout [09:18] I have a problem with JUJU and openstack [09:18] here is the question [09:18] http://askubuntu.com/questions/817572/openstack-fails-to-install-caused-by-juju [09:19] Hi PCdude [09:20] blimey [09:20] that only took 15 hours [09:20] finally got maas 2.0 to pxe boot on bloody virtualbox [09:21] any idea on how to fix it? [09:22] PCdude: Unfortunately not, but I would suggest you try #openstack-charms [09:22] yeah i've never used openstack i'm afraid [09:22] the people at #openstack-charms might be able to help you [09:22] admcleod_: are you there? [09:23] yes [09:24] kjackal: hello [09:25] admcleod_: you might have an idea about http://askubuntu.com/questions/817572/openstack-fails-to-install-caused-by-juju [09:25] kjackal: PCdude unfortunately i dont know anything about conjure-up - but that error makes me think perhaps there is a lib mismatch or something. [09:26] the first error anyway, the second look like a hardware problem [09:27] ...although fd0 is probably floppy disk? so perhaps its just complaining because theres a virtual floppy device attache [09:27] d [09:27] *guessing* [09:29] admcleod_: yeah, I thought about the floppy disk too, but the weird part is that there is no floppy disk turned on in the bios and also there is no floppy disk added in the VM of the node [09:30] PCdude: weird. well, maybe that can be ignored - it looks like other people have had the first issue too [09:30] what u mean "other people", is this a know issue? [09:31] PCdude: it looks like it, i googled the error and i see other people have reported it recently [09:32] admcleod_: I have tried different fora and sended a bug report to JUJU, so I think u are looking at my post :) maybe u can share the link? [09:33] PCdude: e.g. http://askubuntu.com/questions/808372/ubuntu-server-16-04-openstack-mitaka-installation-juju-error/813395 [09:34] PCdude: perhaps try the suggestions at the bottom of that link? let us know if that helps [09:35] that is not me, but thanks for the link, I am gonna try that, I will let u know admcleod_ [09:42] magicaltrout: you at the new job yet? or are you still on earth [09:42] PCdude: im hopeful..:) [09:44] admcleod_: hehe [09:44] i'm on the next ship out of here [09:45] although today i'm working on my presentation for MesosCon on Wednesday [09:45] learning MAAS in a hurry [09:45] colorado? [09:46] Amsterdam [09:46] Amsterdam on Wednesday, Bluefin for a Pentaho thing on Thursday, back for a week, then Pasadena for Juju Summit & working the following week @ JPL [09:47] oh yeah cool [09:47] magicaltrout: , where are u from? [09:47] Good question PCdude [09:47] ill be at pasadena - ill bring some cheese chocolate [09:47] I can tell you I live outside London currently [09:47] admcleod_: i look forward to not bumping into you then [09:48] magicaltrout: ah ok, cool! I live a little to the east of u then :) [09:48] where you based PCdude ? [09:48] not amsterdam, but close [09:49] been a few years since I was last in Holland, shame its a flying (no pun intended) visit [09:49] magicaltrout: aww :) [09:50] how old are u magicaltrout ? [09:51] well yesterday I thought I was 34 [09:51] the mrs had to correct me [09:51] magicaltrout: so you're not 34, you're a messy idiot? [09:52] :D [09:52] haha, 21 here [09:52] 21 [09:52] makes me feel old [09:52] and admcleod_ how old are u? [09:52] u are old magicaltrout ;) [09:52] 36 i think [09:52] you'd never guess with his bald head [09:52] haha [09:53] I think?! haha [09:53] yeah, i look about 50 [09:53] i stopped counting aftr 30 because i felt like id clocked the game [09:53] now every year is just a step closer to death. [09:53] ;] [09:53] woah, the best had yet to come :) [09:53] every day [09:53] not every year [09:54] you younuns and your days [09:54] younguns [09:54] well, I tried both options of the link admcleod_ , no luck so far... [09:55] stupid openstack [09:55] PCdude: ok - if you stay in openstack-charms then someone who can help should be along soon [09:55] don't use it [09:55] its not the law ;) [09:55] admcleod_: I will [09:56] magicaltrout: , yeah well the whole landscape idea sounded really good to me, and what are the alternatives? [09:56] what you trying to acheive PCdude ? [09:57] I really wanna build a private cloud, with several servers. storage node, network node, provisioning [09:58] basically a private version of amazon aws [09:58] I know its a big plan, but I do not care :) [09:59] fair enough, go wild then! :) [10:00] but yeah, are there other options than openstack [10:00] ? [10:00] and I am still a student, so I dont have 1000 dollars a month laying around [10:01] PCdude: can you pastebin your juju accounts.yaml? (without passwords) [10:01] admcleod_: , sure one moment [10:01] well it still depends on what you're trying to do. Learn cloud computing? then use Openstack. Create a private cloud for development? Maybe there is a different way of doing stuff outside of a private cloud [10:05] admcleod_: http://pastebin.com/auGcqBiM [10:06] with of course, the maas key and password included in the real file [10:07] magicaltrout: , learning for sure, development as in for programming projects? or as in development of a private cloud? [10:09] PCdude: so, i think thats missing some stuff ... [10:09] PCdude: and im not sure what conjur-up is supposed to add [10:09] admcleod_: ok, hit me, what should I add? [10:10] admcleod_: conjure-up is what is supposed to be used when installing openstack on 16.04 and higher [10:10] before that, someone could issue "sudo openstack-install" [10:10] PCdude: i mean, i dont know if conjure-up should be adding this extra configuration that should be there or not [10:10] conjure-up (according to some stackexchange users) should give more freedom [10:11] PCdude: i would say, just to check that the juju install is ok, try https://jujucharms.com/docs/stable/getting-started [10:11] admcleod_: uhm, good idea I think [10:12] admcleod_: , I fucked up this VM now anyway, so I think I need to start over to avoid some weird errors, I tried to fix the python error myself, without any luck [10:13] PCdude: right ok so starting from scratch sounds like a good idea [10:13] PCdude: verify juju, and then maybe someone will have a response to the specific error [10:13] admcleod_: btw, a little offtopic, but do u know some simple program to make an unattended version of ubuntu 16.04 for install? [10:14] its just for some simple stuff, so I dont need a whole server with puppet or FIA [10:14] PCdude: preseed? [10:14] PCdude: https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/installation-guide/example-preseed.txt < something like that? [10:15] admcleod_: I did find some old posts yesterday, but was not sure if that was still the way to go in 2016 with ubuntu 16.04 [10:17] admcleod_: I will look into preseed [10:18] PCdude: that one is for xenial - it basically provides answers to the normal installation prompts [10:18] admcleod_: and how do I add it to the install? [10:18] the iso I mean [10:22] PCdude: you would need to mount the iso as an fs, add the file, rewrite the iso.. [10:24] admcleod_: you'll know this, if I juju deploy onto maas, does it install onto the bare metal? or in a lxc container? [10:24] PCdude: perhaps its better to ask that in #ubuntu though, maybe there is a better way [10:25] magicaltrout: on bare metal [10:25] magicaltrout: if you just 'juju deploy ubuntu' itll deploy it to bare metal, if you 'juju deploy ubuntu --to lxc:machine#' then lxc [10:25] cool I need the baremetal scenario just checkin [10:25] g [10:26] admcleod_: yeah, will try that, I find a ton of options u have to go around this "problem" so maybe there are some simple GUI versions even I dont know [12:43] Hi. I did juju deploy openstack on LXD using https://github.com/openstack-charmers/openstack-on-lxd. Bymistake I did #juju logout --force. Now I am not able to see $juju status. [12:45] How can I login back? I tried #juju login. But it was asking username and password. We last password. It was not showing anything in accounts.yaml. How can I achieve my previous status? [12:45] please help me in this [12:56] juju logout --force by mistake? [12:59] rts-sander [12:59] rts-sander: Yes === dpm is now known as dpm-afk [13:02] rts-sander: do you know how to solve? please tell me [13:25] cmars: ping [13:25] magicaltrout, hi [13:26] hi cmars, I'm trying to ascertain the difference between your two nagios interfaces [13:26] can you shed any light? [13:26] magicaltrout, local_monitors vs nrpe_external_master? [13:26] yeah. if my charm wanted to run an nrpe script, which do I pick? :) [13:28] my gut says local_monitors, but I'm just guessing ;) [13:28] magicaltrout, well, they're basically the same content-wise. the local-monitors interface is useful if you want to deploy nagios into the same model and relate the nrpe subordinate to it [13:28] ah, now i see what you mean by external master [13:29] magicaltrout, so i typically use this to test our nagios integration, for internal deploys at work [13:29] magicaltrout, when we go to production, we use nrpe-external-master [13:29] cool, now it makes sense :) [13:30] magicaltrout, i've also noticed a layer:nrpe written more recently, this might be useful as well. haven't tried it yet, but it looks interesting [13:30] i think it may take a different approach === dpm-afk is now known as dpm [13:41] magicaltrout, cmars : I was putting together https://launchpad.net/nagios-layer so everyone could share the same boilerplate [13:42] stub, awesome! [13:43] marcoceppi: can you help out with this one? Kind of complex http://askubuntu.com/questions/817399/juju-charms-related-to-etsi-osm-mano-nfv-deployment/817449#817449 [13:52] hi rock, so to recap: you did a deploy with the lxd provider, and that worked ok. then after a juju logoff, you're wondering how to re-auth so you can interact with the model again. is that right? [13:53] hi rock_ - so you have a charm that you've authored, or are planning to author, and you're wondering how to get it into the charm store as a recommended (official) charm? is that what you mean by certified? [13:54] lazyPower: ping [13:54] magicaltrout pong [13:54] ah hello there [13:54] prepping for wednesday [13:54] quick question [13:54] beisner : Yes. [13:54] if is possible to use layer-docker without installing docker? [13:55] I would like to provide docker.available [13:57] i guess the actual question is, is there an interface instead? : ) [13:57] hi rock_ - i'm not sure that is recoverable (or if so, how). based on the output of `juju logout` without force, in an identical use case, i would believe that there is an autogenerated initial password that is expected to be changed by the user before logging out. ex: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/23107425/ [13:58] magicaltrout https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-docker/blob/master/layer.yaml [13:58] in your inhereting layer, override skip-install to be true. you get docker.available without the delivery bits [13:58] nice [13:59] i can just put hte same config in my layer.yaml right? [13:59] magicaltrout https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-basic#layer-configuration [14:00] err [14:00] https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-basic#layer-options [14:00] magicaltrout ^ [14:00] ta [14:02] is there some kind of minimal example of a charm making a call to the juju API? [14:03] charms don' [14:03] rts-sander: charms don't usually make calls to the juju API [14:03] rts-sander: outside of the hook tools [14:03] rts-sander: what kind of call are you looking to make? [14:03] I want the charm to scale itself [14:03] so add-unit in this case [14:03] rts-sander: ah, I see [14:05] marcoceppi: hi, I've asked you about mysql charm for 16.04 and I see that it's not ready yet. But what is the way to install OpenStack to 16.04 now? [14:05] beisner: OK. But all container are in persistent state. I ran #lxc list . Can we manage all these containers with a newly bootstrapped controller? [14:09] hi petevg/kevin , may i know ibm-http charm review process status ? [14:12] kwmonroe ^^ it looks like our notes on it are blank. Is that the one where we were missing some files from the ftp site? [14:14] lazyPower: Unable to load tactics.docker.DockerWheelhouseTactic from /home/bugg/Projects/dcos-master [14:14] magicaltrout - are you running the latest charm-tools? [14:14] dunno [14:15] 2.1.2 [14:16] andrey-mp: Hi. You can use https://github.com/openstack-charmers/openstack-on-lxd. All in one deployment on VM. [14:16] marcoceppi - can you confirm/deny if the apt packaged tooling has the wheelhouse fix? [14:18] magicaltrout - give me 10 to do some investigation [14:18] sure [14:19] rock_: these bundles contain 'charm: cs:xenial/percona-cluster' for mysql ) [14:25] I know juju-gui makes calls to the API but it's not easy to extract a minimal example from it [14:25] then there's the golang juju/juju/api package but it has minimal documentation and no examples [14:25] rock_: thank you. it's useful. [14:25] magicaltrout - i've just built from layer-docker in charmbox:latest (which is using 1.25.6 and tooling from apt) - so if you bump your version of charm-tools you should get a clean build. If that's not the case, i'll need the output of dpkg --list | grep charm so we can poke around. An issue related to your build error was also filed here: https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-docker/issues/67 [14:29] petevg: if anything is missing from our end on ibm-http charm please let us know. [14:32] magicaltrout - marco says "install the snap" alternatively, its also in the devel ppa. ppa:juju/devel [14:33] rather ppa:juju/stable (we have no idea where we put things) [14:36] shruthima: Sorry about the lack of comment on the PR. It looks like ibm-http is the one that was missing files. We couldn't find the resources mentioned in the README on the ftp site. [14:36] shruthima: I'm in a meeting now, but after I'm out, I'll drop a comment on the PR w/ the specifics. [14:37] petevg: ok thanks [14:37] you're welcome! === kirkland` is now known as kirkland [15:00] here's a good dcos reference implementation lazyPower : https://ibin.co/2tFN0mNz6mr5.png [15:00] magicaltrout - which charm is missing the icon? [15:00] most of the code doesn't exist yet, but who cares ;) [15:01] I borrowed you're docker-nginx charm and hacked it up to do dcos-nginx [15:01] right on [15:01] so you have your dcos core services, logging and monitoring from logstash and nagios [15:01] hense the desire for docker.available :D [15:01] then you can attach docker comntainers [15:01] i see, i see. [15:01] yeah i didn't use that in the end =/ [15:02] no worries, options are there :) [15:02] I'd like to figure out soem dcos/docker compatible interface [15:02] but that'll have to come later === jcastro_ is now known as jcastro === frankban is now known as frankban|afk [16:43] magicaltrout - last of the refactorings are landing in layer-docker. Give your layers a rebuild and let me know if you encounter any new failures. We circled back and triaged #69/#71 this morning after the reported failures. [16:43] just waiting on this one: https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-docker/pull/73 [18:04] i got an error when trying to build the charm-tools snap: https://paste.ubuntu.com/23108417/ [18:05] any ideas how to fix this? [18:06] reason i ask, is i'd like to add the term publishing tools to the snap, but ran into this when i went to build it [18:12] * lazyPower looks [18:12] that looks like its pretty new cmars [18:12] marcoceppi ^ [18:12] pyyaml version mismatch that might have been fine last week, but i'm not positive. calling in the author, but we're in standup [18:18] lazyPower, marcoceppi thanks. i've opened a bug [18:31] cmars: weird, I'll push out an update [18:31] marcoceppi, thanks! [18:32] cmars: oh, you're trying to build it [18:32] marcoceppi, yeah, want to test out https://github.com/juju-solutions/charm-pkg/pull/1 [18:33] cmars: change master to 2.1 in the charm-tools target [18:34] cmars: there seems to be no way to twiddle that without editing the file (which is lame) [18:34] marcoceppi, yeah, it'd be cool if you could interpolate vars in there... [18:34] totally [18:35] cmars: either way, try that [18:35] trying now.. [19:39] marcoceppi, still getting the same error. are you able to build the snap? === aisrael is now known as StoneTable [19:48] cmars: I was a fwe days ago ;) [19:48] cmars: let me try again [19:48] marcoceppi, thanks === StoneTable is now known as aisrael [20:07] cmars: I replciated, apparently something is installing 3.12 of PyYAML [20:07] ugh [20:08] marcoceppi, ok, thanks for confirming [20:08] cmars: I just can't replicate it with a regular venv [20:11] when a layer emits an 'event' how does that event get actually called? say 'nrpe.available' ? [20:12] hatch - thats dependent on how the charm author has intended to handle it. If its written for you, search for a @when('nrpe.available') state is being consumed. or @when_any or even a @when_not [20:12] hatch: that's not an event, that's a state [20:12] nrpe.available is now, and forever, set until something removes that state [20:12] if its an open ended event, meaning we're just saying that some base level function to provide nrpe has been performed (such as a package being installed and default configuration rendered) its now up to you as the next inheriting layer, to decide what that means in the context of your deployment. [20:12] I mean, when does the layers framework execute functions decorated with an @whrn? [20:12] or as marco said in so many fewer words [20:13] hatch: it's an event loop [20:13] so what triggers the event? [20:13] config-changed? [20:13] hatch: so at the end of each loop, reactive evaluates prev states with current states [20:13] hatch: if there's a mismatch, it'll re-run the loop [20:13] or do these @when's have nothing at all to do with the hook system? [20:13] hatch: so, nrpe.available is set in the nrpe interface layer, typically when the relations is completed [20:13] hatch: nothing [20:14] ok and are the @when's executed every time per loop? or only when that state has changed? [20:14] does the framework have a diffing mechanism? [20:15] hatch: everytime the when criteria matches [20:15] hatch: data_changed() for variable diffing [20:15] which is why you'll typically see one or more when and when_not statements around a method [20:16] marcoceppi: so in this loop, which executes every Nms it's going to call the functions decorated with @when's [20:18] hatch: so long as all criteria is met, then yes [20:18] I see [20:18] hooks are just probes to run the reactive framework which combines Juju hook with the set of states/flags set currently [20:18] whats the duration of this event loop? [20:18] most reactive/*.py files don't respond to @hook because it doesn't matter that it's install or start [20:19] hatch: as long as it takes [20:19] so, something that's listening on @when('nrpe.available') will also need a @when_not('nrpe.not-available') ? [20:20] or... [20:20] you know what I mean [20:20] hatch: no, because nrpe.available is only set when it's available [20:20] but every loop of the event loop it's going to call that function [20:20] hatch: however, you might want something like @when('nrpe.available') and @when_not('app.nrpe-configured) [20:20] where app.nrpe-configured is named appropriately and is set after you do swhat you need to with nrpe [20:21] the state declarations are really just to help easily map dependencies of what needs to happen before this method is executed [20:21] so how do you create singletons for events? if you only wanted to perform an action once when nrpe.available? [20:21] hatch: my above example would do just that [20:22] ok so then @when's are really "gates" [20:22] hatch: what's the name of the layer [20:22] hatch: yes [20:22] they're conditionals [20:22] I see [20:22] so you really have to think about how to create a singleton [20:22] arbitrary names as well [20:22] because I can't think of a time when you'd want to spam something every time the loop happens [20:23] hatch: http://paste.ubuntu.com/23108940/ [20:23] hatch: there are a few instances [20:24] por ejemplo [20:26] marcoceppi: so that seems like the default action people would want to do [20:26] a 'once' [20:26] sure, it's one of the many possibilities [20:26] once, occasionally, everytime are a few other examples [20:26] ok, but when would you ever want anything to happen on every event loop? [20:27] that could be hundreds of times per second [20:27] update-status ? [20:27] well, not nessisiarly [20:27] event loop runs every time there's a hook until there are no state changes [20:27] could be one time, could be 100 [20:27] but it's not like a node.js event loop or nginx [20:27] ok so there IS a direct relation between hooks and events [20:28] events are _not_ executed until a hook is triggered [20:28] I think we're overloading event [20:28] ergo, not a loop [20:28] the reactive framework is executed on each hook run [20:28] > hooks are just probes to run the reactive framework which combines Juju hook with the set of states/flags set currently [20:28] ok so let me put an example [20:29] I have foo.available , that's 'fired' when my foo service has successfully installed and configured itself - this is a purely remote action, there is no hook fired on my charm. How does it know to execute that foo.available event? [20:30] stop thinking of states as events [20:30] step 1 ^ ;) [20:30] ok they are states [20:30] the only way a state can be set is during a hook [20:30] well [20:30] 99.99999999% of times a state is set during a hook [20:31] technically you can set states outside of hooks, but no one does that I'm aware of [20:31] despite actions having access to states... thats the other use case i can think of [20:31] actions are hooks [20:31] but thats also an anonymous hook context [20:31] ok so assuming that this remote install and configuarion step is performed when a relation-joined happens. I'd have to block the relation-joined hook from continuing probing the remote service to see if it's done [20:31] hatch: the relation interface should be the one that does the probing [20:31] and it should be the one to set nrpe.available once it's confirmed it [20:32] sure, but that is still blocking the relation-joined hook from finishing [20:32] either you ahve all the data to complete configuration, or you don't [20:32] why? [20:32] because it can't finish the hook until it knows that this remote service is setup so it can set 'available' [20:32] just don't set a state and the hook will complete and the next will run [20:32] let me back up, are you writing the nrpe interface layer or are you writing somethign that depends on it? [20:33] I was just using that as an example, let me simplify this to abstract applications....How does AppA know that AppB is done doing something? [20:33] assuming that AppA has to know when AppB is done before setting 'AppB.available' [20:33] the interface tells AppA it's available [20:34] what's in ths interface? [20:34] hatch: how about an example? [20:34] what is the interface doing to know this [20:34] is AppA blocking a relation hook to poll on AppB [20:34] hatch: https://github.com/johnsca/juju-relation-mysql/blob/master/requires.py [20:34] hatch: so you poll, and it fails, then you exit the hook or it succeeds and you set the state [20:35] or you don't do either, and assert that a completion of relation data required to make the connection is an indication of health for the remote application [20:36] right this example you linked is an immediate "oh we connected, we're good" but that's not always the case [20:36] and without a sane way in juju to assert health of an application, we have to work off the assumptions that when a relation has sent all required data to make the connection [20:36] sometimes available is more than 'relation-joined' [20:36] hatch: yes, in this case, you sent me /all/ the data I need to make a connection [20:36] short of actually logging in which we /could/ do, there's not much else to be done [20:36] and the only way to know that is to block a relation hook and poll the remote service [20:36] the handshake is complete, and it's availalble because the data has been made available [20:37] hatch: so poll the remote service [20:37] it'll either: fail - not ready or it'll succeed, ready [20:37] but if a service is sending over relation data and it's not ready, that's a problem [20:37] right [20:37] that charm isn't of quality [20:38] so sure, you can go above and beyond, but if you expect to have another go at validating that relationship, without proper event modelling of health in juju there's no event that will be tirggered again to re-evaluate that state [20:38] that's fine, I'm just trying to understand the relationship between hooks and states [20:38] this is why we have relation-changed, used to update the relation wire and if we withold crucial information like, connection details, until the remote serivce is ready [20:38] and without a hook there is no state [20:38] we can use that to key on it being "available" [20:39] states are set and evaluated inside of a hook context [20:39] but available might mean two diferent things here, available: connection details available and available: service is functioning [20:39] right [20:39] the former is today, the latter, well, I'd like to have a discussion about at the charmer summit :) [20:39] and simply by decorating a function with a state value doesn't mean you're going to be called with that immediately [20:40] and how to measure application health with juju [20:40] a hook has to be executed to trigger this change [20:40] yes [20:40] fundementally, all juju and charm things are boiled down to "a hook ran" [20:40] it's our entry point into the system [20:41] and when a state is changed there is a loop which is triggered which is basically a while loop which checks "have any states changed since the last loop" [20:41] it's not a never-ending stack [20:41] right [20:41] maybe one day? but not currently in today's design [20:42] since we do still fundementally rely on juju hooks to determine method execution [20:42] ok now this makes sense [20:42] cool, we're very much still open to input on different ways of doing things [20:43] marcoceppi: the docs need to be updated then [20:43] hatch: link me to the mistakes [20:43] "States are synthetic events that are defined by the layers author" [20:43] https://jujucharms.com/docs/stable/developer-layers [20:43] "states are synthetic flags that are defined by the layers author and evaluated during hook execution" ? [20:43] sure [20:43] would that shape that sentance better? [20:44] just to me an event is something that reacts to changes [20:44] yeah, event is totally the wrong wording there [20:44] I think some more pictures too, describing this might be helpful [20:44] I'll update that for now, thanks for the feedback [20:45] marcoceppi: why is 'synthetic' necessary? it seems to just add confusion. === BradCrittenden is now known as bac [20:45] bac: : not sure, it's meant to convey they are arbitrary iirc [20:46] marcoceppi: if only there was a word for 'arbitrary'. :) [20:46] would arbitrary be a better word there for describing what a state is? [20:46] marcoceppi: i think so [20:46] I mean, they are synthetic, much in the way we promulgate charms ;) [20:46] marcoceppi: fwiw layers make charms so much eaiser to understand [20:46] I'm just being picky because I like to know the internals of things :D [20:47] hatch: it's good discord, the more [people poking reactive the better it'll become [20:47] marcoceppi: there is also ". Hook decorators so the code can react to Juju events." [20:47] on the same page [20:47] well, hooks are juju events, what wording would make more sense for you? [20:48] Juju hooks [20:48] :) [20:48] no need to introduce extra terminology [20:48] psh, w/e <3 [20:48]