[08:48] <foobarry> http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/08/28/is-microsoft-corporations-one-windows-dream-dead.aspx
[08:48] <foobarry> thoughts?
[09:00] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[09:01] <TwistedLucidity> You can have one application for all patforms in the same way you can have one engine for all vehicles. Yes, technically it can be done but most will suck.
[09:01] <TwistedLucidity> You can, of course, have targeted applications use the same data/services.
[09:03] <TwistedLucidity> Whilst I think MS's "one size fits all" policy was a serious mis-step on their part, the antics around the enforced upgrade to W10 were far, far worse. You see many complaints about that.
[09:03] <TwistedLucidity> Just like W8 though, I don't think Windows is going anywhere.
[09:04] <TwistedLucidity> s/applications/OS
[09:28] <zmoylan-pi> windows has reached a 'it's too big to fail' point.  as crap as it is and as crap as ms make it a large group of users will have to put up with it as 1) ms won't sell the version they want (currently 7) 2) the apps they use day to day need it
[09:36] <TwistedLucidity> With more and more things going back to the old server/client model, the hold Windows has is lessening. Even with gaming, you could stream that given decent enough bandwidth.
[09:37] <TwistedLucidity> MS knows that, hence the whole BASH-on-Windows/PowerSmell-on-Linux thing.
[09:37] <zmoylan-pi> and microsofts one windows dream died when they tried to make wince look exactly like windows on the desktop of that time.  there is mobile and there is not mobile.  making everything look like the version used in the other situation is the wrong way to do things
[09:37] <TwistedLucidity> He who controls the service, controls the universe.
[09:39] <zmoylan-pi> making mobile look like a desktop is bad as it's trying to cram a full ui onto a small screen badly, making the desktop look like mobile is... well it's windows 8... and we try to avoid profanity here... :-)
[09:40] <zmoylan-pi> now trying to do the backend and have one app that will run everywhere is slightly worse as it makes bloated unoptimised binaries that will suck up the storagee, batterys and cpus of mobile systems and be irrelevent on desktop as a lot of apps are not meant to be run on mobile
[09:58] <TwistedLucidity> The backend would live on the server, each application can be optimised for the platform and consume the same services (some of which might also have platform optimisations).
[09:58] <foobarry> my nephew had a working laptop with w8 (what came on it when he bought it). w10 enforced install , now it suffers thermal shutdowns. i think the system management and drivers are not really optimised for the laptop any more
[10:01] <zmoylan-pi> so if it makes you go out and buy a new laptop a win for the manufacturers
[10:04] <zmoylan-pi> it's not really their fault that ms shoved a horrible upgrade down everyones throats when their back was turned
[11:49] <foobarry> not a win for hp if you now think HP suck (they do)
[11:49] <zmoylan-pi> ah now, hp sucked long before win10... :-P
[11:50] <foobarry> so the boy bundled into the van was a hoax?
[11:50] <foobarry> odd
[12:26] <knightwise> Mornin peepz
[12:30]  * penguin42 yawns
[14:54] <diddledan> ello
[15:52] <diddledan> anyone want a super awesome smart watch? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bluetooth-Smart-Watch-For-Android-HTC-Samsung-Sony-Camera-SIM-TF-Card-Slots-UK-/311682396139?_trkparms=%26rpp_cid%3D51e7270f5d9bcc4d8a85abad%26rpp_icid%3D51e725c45d9bcc4d8a85abab
[15:52] <diddledan> super awesomely expensive
[18:06] <knightwise> hey :)
[18:07] <knightwise> Can anyone help me with writing a boot record to an xps13 ?
[18:10] <diddledan> knightwise: if it's EFI you should be able to do it without messing with anything much
[18:10] <knightwise> I think i deleted a little bit too much
[18:11] <diddledan> knightwise: just copy grubx64.efi or shimx64.efi to bootx64.efi
[18:11] <diddledan> aah
[18:11] <diddledan> you can run grub-install /dev/<boot>
[18:11] <knightwise> i'm repartationing the drive right now,
[18:11] <knightwise> so i have 32gig /  andthe rest is /home
[18:12] <knightwise> Can I create a 265 meg partition (ext4? ) and just install the bootloader in there ?
[18:13] <knightwise> i have the option of putting it in /sda or /sda1
[18:13] <popey> foobarry: get anywhere with the hudl2?
[18:13] <diddledan> knightwise: no, it needs to be fat32 for EFI
[18:14] <knightwise> ok , i can create a 265 meg fat partition and put it there
[18:15] <knightwise> What mountpoint do i assign to it ? none ?
[18:15] <diddledan> ideally you'd have an EFI partition at the beginning of your disk with either a /boot or a / which contains the boot readable by grub. the EFI part needs to be FAT32 and mounted at /boot/efi and contains a folder called EFI (upper-case)
[18:16] <knightwise> wait , i can install the bootloader in / ?
[18:16] <diddledan> no
[18:17] <knightwise> ah
[18:17] <diddledan> I meant that /boot or / (with boot inside) needs to be an additional partition after EFI
[18:17] <knightwise> ok ,
[18:17] <knightwise> so partionwise i have :
[18:17] <knightwise> a 265 meg Fat32 partition (to which i have assigned the boodloader)
[18:18] <diddledan> the EFI partition needs to be set to the right EFI-type
[18:18]  * diddledan googles for that
[18:18] <knightwise> Elementary doesnt give me te option to format a partition as efi
[18:20] <popey> no, you format fat32
[18:20] <knightwise> ok
[18:20] <diddledan> in parted it can be set (from what I can see) by running the command (inside parted) "set boot on" for the relevant partition
[18:21] <diddledan> (parted) set partition boot on
[18:21] <knightwise> ah , i can try that , i can still boot with the live cd
[18:21] <diddledan> from the source of all linux knowledge, arch wiki: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GNU_Parted
[18:23] <knightwise> Ah ! That did it :) Works now :) Thanx guys
[18:27] <diddledan> \o/
[18:27] <knightwise> purrrrrrrrdy :)
[19:32] <foobarry> popey: i found 3 CVEs that are priv escalations
[19:32] <foobarry> that affect 5.1
[19:32] <foobarry> but found no public POC/exploits for them
[19:33] <foobarry> modaco forum has stuff on teir forum where some guy has a guinea pig tablet and a special tool for copying the bios off the device
[19:33] <foobarry> which could lead to disabling the signed bootloader in future.
[19:36] <foobarry> i,e unifarium's post on http://www.modaco.com/forums/topic/375352-bootloader-unlocking/?page=3
[19:37] <foobarry> also noticed you contributed to the elementary hack session, v generous of you. i did too, as its a good way to finance direct action (along with bug bounties)
[20:07] <ali1234> what is the difference between Provides: and Replaces: in a debian package control?
[20:08]  * penguin42 suspects it's something subtle to do with upgrading but I don't know
[20:08] <penguin42> oh
[20:08] <penguin42> ali1234: Provides:  I think lets a bunch of packages all match a requirement with no preference
[20:09] <penguin42> ali1234: e.g. vi, vim, emacs, nano  would all Provide: editor
[20:09] <ali1234> yeah
[20:09] <penguin42> ali1234: it doesn't stop you installing all of them for example
[20:09] <ali1234> i know what provides does
[20:09] <ali1234> but i don't understand what replaces does
[20:09] <diddledan> yeah provides is used for dependencies in one direction and replaces is the other I think
[20:09] <ali1234> (different)
[20:09] <ali1234> so this is my situation
[20:09] <ali1234> i want to install gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad
[20:09] <ali1234> unfortunately it depends on opencv which depends on all of X11
[20:10] <penguin42> ali1234: I think replaces: is for when you need to get rid of the old one when the old one has a different name
[20:10] <ali1234> so i am using equivs to make a dummy package which provides opencv
[20:10] <diddledan> so many packages can "provide" a dependency but only one package can "replace" another
[20:10] <ali1234> so far so good right?
[20:10] <ali1234> but now what if i decide later that actually i do want opencv?
[20:10] <ali1234> can i install it alongside my dummy package?
[20:11] <ali1234> should my dummy package use provides: opencv or replaces: opencv
[20:11] <penguin42> isn't there an explicit conflicts or something?
[20:11] <ali1234> yes
[20:11] <ali1234> but i don't want it to conflict
[20:12] <penguin42> ali1234: how about a conflicts together with a provides ?
[20:12] <ali1234> then i wont be able to install opencv later
[20:12] <ali1234> the goal here is to prevent the dependency from being automatically installed
[20:12] <ali1234> but still allow it to be manually installed
[20:13] <penguin42> well it might I'm not sure, it would install opencv and deinstall yours?
[20:13] <ali1234> hmm good point
[20:13] <ali1234> but i dont want mine to be uninstalled because it provides a lot of other things
[20:13] <ali1234> i have one big dummy package with "everything i don't want by default"
[20:14] <penguin42> well that's wrong
[20:14] <penguin42> you want a set of packages
[20:15] <ali1234> hmm yeah you're right
[20:15] <ali1234> i should have one for each thing which may or may not be installed
[20:15] <ali1234> then if it conflicts and you manually install it, the dummy gets removed as you say
[20:15] <penguin42> ali1234: Or one big kitchen sync that depends on your opencv?
[20:16] <ali1234> that way if a group has multiple packages they will all get switched over correctly
[20:16] <ali1234> the real situation is this:
[20:16] <ali1234> i'm building a raspbian initramfs with debirf
[20:16] <ali1234> so i have a size limit
[20:16] <ali1234> gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad is needed for glimagesink which is needed for video playback without X
[20:17] <penguin42> why does that depend on X?
[20:17] <ali1234> it depends on opencv which depends on X11, libfluidsynth which depends on pulseaudio which depends on X11... and a bunch of other stuff
[20:17] <penguin42> ewww
[20:18] <ali1234> libfluidsynth also depends on a 40MB midi patch library
[20:18] <ali1234> so needless to say i don't care about having those things installed
[20:18] <ali1234> and there's a lot of them
[20:18] <ali1234> about 150MB to be precises
[20:18] <ali1234> there is also another problem
[20:19] <ali1234> raspbian kernel isn't packaged the debian way. instead you get raspberrypi-kernel and raspberrypi-bootloader
[20:19] <ali1234> bootloader is properietary and you MUST have it... but it depends on raspberrypi-kernel, not the other way around
[20:19] <ali1234> and i want a custom kernel, not their one
[20:19] <ali1234> so i need to equivs raspberrypi-kernel as well
[20:19] <ali1234> but my build system that i've created has options... so you can pick either raspberrypi-kernel or custom kernel
[20:20] <ali1234> then we hit another problem. debirf runs fakeroot so i can't run equivs from within the build system
[20:20] <ali1234> so i have to build the equivs packages before running debirf, so i don't nkow what i am actually going to need
[20:21] <ali1234> however i think making a separate package for each lump of crud i want to block, and possibly setting appropriate conflicts: will mean that my dummy package for eg raspberrypi-kernel would get removed iff user selects to install the real package
[20:21] <ali1234> so basically, what you guys said
[20:21] <ali1234> thanks :)
[20:23] <ali1234> actually
[20:24] <ali1234> it turns out that if you just set provides: and don't set conflicts: then you can install the real package side by side
[20:24] <ali1234> that works for the kernel
[20:24] <ali1234> however it doesn't work for opencv because it is multiple packages, and if i install one the others won't get pulled in
[20:25] <ali1234> this would work much better if i could run equivs inside debirf but i can't because they both use fakeroot
[20:31] <popey> foobarry: oh, didn't realise my name was public on that
[20:33]  * zmoylan-pi shakes fist at 2016... gene wilder dead... 
[20:33] <penguin42> nod :-(
[20:35] <popey> oh no :(
[20:37]  * zmoylan-pi copies blazing saddles to media player and promises self not to laugh at beans and camp fire scene knowing that i will...
[20:42] <popey> :)