[05:23] morning [05:55] Good morning mapps [08:15] morning boys and girls. [08:16] hello brobostigon [08:17] hi crogers [08:18] Morning all [08:19] goodmorning davmor2 [08:32] I have an idea. [08:33] It would cure the problem of hotkey clashes between the window manager and the applications. [08:36] All window manager hotkeys (moving windows, closing windows, etc.) always use the key. [08:37] And all applications should never use the key. [08:37] Most don't anyway. [08:37] The only exceptions should be for copy/paste actions. [08:38] Though, those are application specific anyway. [08:39] The only problem I can think of with this, is that everyone is used to switching windes with Alt+Tab [08:40] crogers: do you use Ubuntu most of the keyboard actions revolve around the super key [08:40] Yes, I do. [08:40] And the fisrt thing I always do is switch the Alt key with the Super key. [08:41] Ubuntu is my only OS. I left Windows behind nearly 5 years ago. [08:41] I'm a designer, so I use the GUI heavily. [08:42] I don't think I generally have issues with shortcuts clashing between window manager and application, but maybe I've just got used to what doesn't work... [08:42] crogers: I very rarely have any clashes [08:43] I use complex applications. [08:43] Such as Blender 3D [08:43] only time I really have issues is when I think I'm on one screen when I'm actually on the other and a key combination that moves to a different tab in one app closes the app in another :D [08:43] alt+click drag is a big problem. [08:44] should be super+click-drag to move a window. [08:44] ah yeah; ctrl-w not always just deleting the previous word keeps getting me in firefox and pidgin [08:45] crogers: alt click is an Operating System standard [08:45] Also, application devs should not have to dance around wm hotkeys. [08:45] davmor2 I know. It's not a good standard. [08:45] crogers: it works on Ubuntu mac and windows [08:46] is it objectively bad, or is there just something you'd rather it did? [08:46] Is it our mission to emmulate Mac and Windows crappy standards? :) [08:46] wm actions should always use the super key. [08:46] To prevent clashes with applications. [08:47] haha, let's not emulate Wndows and instead use the Windows key? :) [08:47] crogers: no it is our job to make computing as easy as possible so people moving from other operating systems can still use they Computing Standard shortcuts [08:47] It's the key, not the Windows key. [08:47] crogers: feel free to change it [08:48] being different from the established norms just to be different is a way to annoy people. Making things easier always has to take into account what people expect to happen; good UIs are not surprising [08:48] crogers: no it has a windows emblem on it it is most definitely the windows key [08:48] mine definitely has a windows logo on it [08:48] BigRedS, It's not "just to be different" [08:49] BigRedS, so? Macs have an Apple logo on it. [08:49] crogers: so there are 20 million plus users, I believe you are the first person I've heard complain about it [08:49] so why not emulate mac and windows' 'crappy' standards? [08:49] Mine has a Tux on it. [08:50] davmor2, from a developer standpoint it makes sense too, not just user. [08:50] And from distro to distro, they change. [08:51] the defaults are normally baked into the WM, not the distro. Ubuntu's got a unique WM, but any Gnome3 install should use the same shortcuts, for example [08:51] So application devs are forced to dance around various distro hotkey setups. [08:51] Well, wm setups. [08:52] I mean, I get that it'd be great if everyone just settled on your standard to use the windows key for all window manager shortcuts and leave ctrl, alt etc. for programs. But it'll be so annoying a transition that I'd probably rail against it if it were to happen on my PC :) [08:52] crogers: you know I'll let you in on a secret most windows users don't know there are keyboard shortcuts, the ones that do are developers, and guess what they are the ones that would start complaining if we started messing with the computing standard shortcuts [08:53] It would take a day to get used to it. :) [08:53] because I use a bunch of keyboard shortcuts that largely havent changed since I started using it, and none of them are particularly problematic to me [08:53] haha, no. I've tried changing things around before and I don't take well to it :) [08:53] davmor2, if Windows users don't know there are shortcut keys, then there's no issue in "Transition" is there? [08:54] crogers: it's the developer who have year of memory muscle for particular key combinations that would complain [08:54] Bet I have more. :) [08:55] I'm a full time designer. [08:55] crogers: by the way the wonderful thing about Linux is you can change things feel free to remap the alt+click to super+click [08:55] Think of how many hotkeys GIMP and Inkscape has. [08:56] Of course, both those programs combined don't have nearly as many hotkeys as Blendre 3D [08:56] I do. [08:56] crogers: then what is the issue [08:56] Every single time I install. [08:56] Shouldn't have to. And I shouldn't have to post updates on how to use gconf editor to remap it every. single. time. [08:57] how many times does that happen? [08:57] And devs should not have to dance around wm hotkeys. [08:58] But, yeah, it really ought to be easily programmable. I don't know if it is - I used to have a deb package that depended on the software I liked using and made all the post-install changes I wanted made to config files, but it just edited text files [08:58] I don't know what's involved in these brave new worlds, I'm using an xml-configured window manager these days... [08:58] most tweak tools have it now. [08:58] which shows you that it is actually a problem for amny users. [08:58] *many [08:59] where 'it' is a programmatic means of fiddling with shortcuts? [08:59] But you have to know to install tweak tools. [08:59] crogers: our point is that 99% of the devs don't we setup Ubuntu for the 99% not the 1% that need it different [08:59] where "it" is the specific problem I'm talking about here. [09:01] Can you really use alt-drag to move a window in Windows? [09:02] Or Macos? [09:02] The first time I saw taht was on a Linux machine. [09:03] And it's always gotten in my way. You're right though, 99% of Ubuntu users are not professional graphic designers. [09:04] there's a reasonable argument to be made that you could compile a list of all the keyboard shortcuts on a modern PC and come up with some sort of sane and coherent keyboard mapping for them that's perhaps more intuitive and definitely more consistent and likely more learnable [09:04] which I suspect isn't far off what you're advocating [09:04] BigRedS, that's not my argument though. lol [09:05] It's much simpler. [09:05] ah, you just want something *differently* incoherent? :) [09:05] BigRedS, maybe I'm not explaining well enough? :) [09:05] Let me try again... [09:05] Say your an application dev. [09:05] morning everyon e [09:06] either way, I think the downside is the same - you can make the case that this new way is objectively better and easier to learn and easy to develop for, but you can't really get around the fact that it's quite different to everyone's expectations, and that these expectations generally work for nearly everybody [09:06] according to davmor2 "everyone" doesn't even use hotkeys coming to linux. [09:07] I think most people generally use the mouse, yeah [09:07] In 10+ years of using Linux, I never once felt the need to hotkey-grab my windows either. :) [09:07] as in alt+click to drag them? [09:07] So there's an argument that can be made that this actually will not change very much at all. [09:07] BigRedS, yup. [09:07] well, it depends whether you or I are representative of users [09:08] But think of it from an application dev's point of view. [09:08] it's very easy to assume that whatever it is that I do must be the norm and the other ways of doing things are just superfluous and unneeded. You can see this assumption in lots of UXy bugreports [09:08] Rather than compiling a list of all the hotkeys across all wms, you simply refrain from using the super Key. [09:08] Oh, I don't consider developers. I'm a sysadmin. [09:08] That's it. [09:09] yeah, and I'm not arguing that that's not a fine standard [09:09] It's that simple. You can map any hotkeys you want as long as you don't use the Super key as part of the combo. [09:09] it's just it's also a surprising one, and I would find the surprise more annoying than I currently find the inconsistency [09:09] Okay, cool. Just didn't know if I was explaining well enugh. [09:10] ah yeah, I just assumed that you saw a coherent and thought through complete set of shortcuts as an even better standard :) [09:10] Oh gads, no. :) [09:10] That would be aweful. :) [09:10] It's already the convention for most things. [09:10] haha [09:11] It's just not an official convention. [09:11] And it's most annoying presently in Unity/gnome/kde/etc [09:12] Come to think of it, it's not a problem in Windows. [09:12] I'd have noticed. [09:13] I think the worst shock would be that alt-tab would become -tab. [09:13] yeah, that was the point of the key, wasn't it? [09:13] Yep. :) [09:13] to give Windows a key that didn't infringe on anyone else's stuff. But all these bloody hippies wanted nothing to do with the Windows key until someone thought up a new name for it [09:13] Hahaha [09:14] Did Apple copy it, or did Microsoft? [09:14] There's another bit of trivia. :) [09:14] copy what? the command key, or whichever apple key is the rough analogue? [09:15] [09:15] I think it's an apple logo on Mac keyboards. [09:15] command is equiv to ctrl [09:15] or is it alt... [09:16] I think Apples had that key before they got delete... [09:16] Right, but I think it is the key still [09:17] Apple uses say "Apple"-C if it's -C [09:17] So really, it's the Apple key, rebranded to the WIndows key. [09:17] Which isn't better, but well, there it is. :) [09:18] Like I said, mine has a tux on it. :) [09:18] Though I'd rather have an Ubuntu logo, tbh [09:19] It also highlights the importance of calling it the key. It's branding-neutral. [09:22] Also, it appears that Alt+Drag is a compiz convention. [09:22] Which explains why the first time I saw it was on Linux. [09:22] Compiz was one of the reasons I switched to Linux. :) [09:23] Oh, the customisation power! *drools* [09:24] Used to love to show people on their macbooks the enviable sh*t you could do with compiz, and a weekend of messing around. :) [09:24] The Windows key has license implications along with it [09:25] popey, that would not surprise me at all. lol [09:25] Which is why we use the universal key. [09:25] Platform agnostic, isn't it? [09:27] My hope is that when laptops start rolling out officially with Ubuntu and an ubuntu logo on the super key, they still call it the Super key, and not the Ubuntu key. :) [09:28] That way it can be distro agnostic too. [09:30] That's not why we use the term [09:30] It's more that free software types have an aversion to Microsoft branded or originated things [09:31] See also: Mono, PowerShell, VS Code. [09:32] code wise it is actually called the meta key :D [09:32] That ma be the reason, but a better reason is that there is no agreement on what the button was called in the first place. [09:33] davmor2, I think that's a different key, actually.... :) [09:34] Or at least a different ascii value. [09:35] Yes, the Meta key is now AltGr [09:35] well, it was originally called Super [09:35] http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet1.jpeg [09:35] many years before Windows existed [09:35] See also: Hyper key [09:35] Yep. [09:36] Here's the askubuntu thread: http://askubuntu.com/questions/19558/what-are-the-meta-super-and-hyper-keys [09:36] free software people call it super, windows people call it windows [09:36] So it was Super first. :) [09:37] MS rebranded it. [09:39] Oh man, I'm glad some of these keys are gone. lol [09:39] Like the thumbs-up and thumbs down keys. lol [09:40] Or are those what became arrow keys? [09:52] Google foo is failing at the moment. Is there a decent guide to migrating from unity to gnome, preferably for 16.04? [09:52] Gargoyle, what do you mean by migrating? [09:52] Like just installing gnome wm? [09:54] I usually just open a terminal and type: sudo apt-get install gnome-shell [09:55] then you can just choose your wm at your login screen. [09:56] to do that, click the ubuntu icon in the login box, and choose the little foot icon for gnome [09:56] there is a task for it, like "sudo apt install ubuntu-gnome-desktop^" [09:56] (note the caret) [09:57] popey, does that do something different than just install gnome-shell? [09:58] yes [09:58] it installs what you'd get if you installed ubuntu gnome flavour [09:58] apps n'all [09:58] Ah, yea, that would be horrible. :) [09:58] Well, for me. [09:59] it doesn't pull in much more than just doing the shell [09:59] If you just want to switch window managers and leave everything else alone, I'd just go for gnome-shell [09:59] In my case, it would probably break *something*. [10:02] I wonder is MS gets a kickback from every keyboard imprinted with their logo. [10:03] For the SUper key. [10:03] crogers: of course they do it is a windows logo [10:03] Ew... [10:06] I guess that's somewhat better than buying a whole keyboard from MS though. :) [10:06] SHows how hard it is not to give MS some money. [10:07] crogers: I do often they do good hardware, me looks over at his btle folding keyboard [10:08] Yea, it's mainly that funding them funds thair nasty patent lawsuit threats against Linux and Open Source software. [10:08] crogers: if you ship hardware which contains a windows key, the terms of the windows license prevent you allowing that button to do anything other than launch the start button. [10:08] microsoft have send the lawyers after very big names who did this [10:08] Oy, delayed flight at Gatwick [10:09] thats insane [10:09] is it true? [10:10] Yes, more reason to try to avoid funding MS. :) [10:10] I missed something fun... [10:11] foobarry: yes [10:12] https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/773250721659486208/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw [10:12] lolz [10:12] a discussion about the windows key and the non-standardisation of keyboard shortcuts [10:12] dafty2, quick catchup from this morning: Topics: using the Super key to separate wm actions from application hotkeys so there are never any clashes, the Super key was actually the Super key before MS rebranded it the Windows key. Apparently MS gets a kickback for each keyboard imprinted with a Windows logo on that key. [10:13] And that's about it. :) [10:13] I always call it Super for platform agnosticism! Thanks crogers [10:14] popey, so would that leave me the same system config stuff (are they part of gnome or the unity shell)? [10:14] dafty2, Hah! That's exactly what I said. [10:14] There seems to me a serious lack of any kind of config options. [10:14] I can't for the life of me connect to freenode from my digital ocean VPS [10:14] sudo apt-get install gnome-tweak-tool [10:15] done that [10:15] SHould be about the same, just no duplicate or redundant apps installed. [10:15] Well, the unity one, at the moment. [10:15] nah, differnt one for gnome [10:15] OK. I'll have a play. [10:15] Have fun. :) [10:15] So much easier when you just had to edit x.conf! :P [10:16] nnnghh. lol [10:16] I was only just helping someone edit xorg.conf the other day, can't wait for that to die [10:16] Different topic I know,but close ;) [10:17] dafty2, agreed hehehe [10:18] dafty2, Oh, the fun bit of the previous conversation was actually spawned by a side-note that the Meta key is not actually the Super key. [10:19] http://askubuntu.com/questions/19558/what-are-the-meta-super-and-hyper-keys [10:19] Indeed it isn't! Think they were on sun machines though, meta [10:19] The chosen answer is a great bit of info-porn with CS history and images. :) [10:20] Ok I'm only on airport free wi-fi so I best scoot, not making much progress here. [10:20] Delayed from 11am to 2pm :( [10:20] Yikes! Cache a copy of Linux voice, fast! [10:21] I have a nice book :) can't risk battery! [10:21] Ah, no outlets at the airport? [10:21] No smartphone? [10:22] No Kobo e-reader? [10:22] I'm typing from one yep [10:22] (which supports DRM free epub books) [10:22] I like the break from screen time :) makes it a real holiday [10:22] NooooO! [10:22] You're doing it WRONG! Must use all time to make progress on stuff! [10:22] ANd drink buckets of coffee. [10:23] * crogers envies people who can relax on holliday. (Enjoy!) :) [10:23] If you get bored later, check these out: https://www.linuxvoice.com/creative-commons-issues/ [10:24] Linux Voice Magazine releases all their older issues under Creative Commons License. [10:24] Which is one reason I subscribe to their paper issue, to help fund them. :) [10:25] Plus, paper magazines are quite a novelty for me. Great battery life too! [10:27] Back on my broadband. [10:27] On gnome? [10:28] er, in, rather? [10:28] Nahh. Was on 4G. Openreach have been doing more tests. [10:29] Finally got an engineer with some common sense who has managed to compile some solid info. [10:29] First thing I usually do is switch the theme to gnome's default (it will be set to unity's default still. [10:29] But that's just to fix the window corners. [10:30] Gargoyle, do you use many gnome extensions? [10:30] Last 600m of cable is aluminium. This causes the drop from 40 meg down to < 10 [10:30] crogers, Only on linux desktop day 3 [10:30] eeep! [10:30] suckage [10:30] Ah. :) [10:30] I'm about to try to use sudo to give someone nearly-but-not-quite root. Is there anything good I ought to read first? [10:31] Their employment contract? :) [10:31] I'm good with the syntax and (hopefull) most of the concepts, but surely someone's tried to let a user use find but not -exec and suchlike - I'm after elegant solutions to that sort of thing [10:31] haha [10:32] helpfully this is incompetence and not malice that I'm trying to guard against, but it's not formal enough for that :( [10:32] we used to break out of stuff like more/less etc which was fun [10:32] (when I worked at a big diy store where they used AIX) [10:32] we'd pass notes around about "hey, if you need root, john knows" [10:33] I also worked somewhere where they bodged the systems such that you could get a root like account, but it logged _everything_ [10:33] so if you ran top, their logs would be full of nonsense [10:34] hahaha [10:34] yeah, stop putting me off this [10:34] :) [10:36] Think you can add user access to file folders. [10:36] Then they should be able to perform find tasks... but then execution... hmm [10:36] Yea, nevermind. Not sure. :) [10:36] we also had a little c program which could elevate privs [10:37] that was handy [10:37] was called "utility" or something, and we'd use it in scripts, they never noticed [10:37] Hehehe [10:39] Gargoyle, once you get your bearings, I have some extensions that will make you whine about having to use other wm. :) [10:39] imagine wroking somewhere without root [10:39] that would be sad days [10:40] crogers: ACLs? Yeah, can't quite be bothered to implement that [10:40] foobarry: yeah, I had that! [10:40] Not only that, but all you have to do to install them is visit extensions.gnome.org in Firefox, and flip a switch on the extensions you want. [10:40] had to fill in forms to get root, and they'd allow it per-account for a fixed period [10:40] screw that [10:40] i mean, i do that to the users [10:40] Indeed, I did, 5 years ago :) [10:41] crogers, cool. [10:41] I'll be looking for a good password manager, and sftp client. [10:42] Extensions + Mac-style expo when you hit the Super key make Gnome hard to replace for my purposes. [10:42] Well, old mak/compiz style. [10:42] *mac [10:43] Different from the default meta-w and meta-shift-w ones? [10:43] Try it. :) [10:44] Open some programs, then just hit the Super key. [10:44] It shrinks them all for you so you can see what you're doing. [10:44] works for me on elementary [10:44] like super+w on unity? [10:44] I typically have 7 different programs open, with multiple instances. [10:44] super-S super-A etc [10:45] popey, Ahh, so super-w is a unity thing, not a gnome thing? [10:45] dunno, don't use gnome [10:46] it's new-window in firefox :) [10:46] wat [10:47] surely that's ctrl+n? [10:47] yeah, it's that too [10:47] not sure what this conversation is actually about [10:48] keyboard shortcuts do different things in different DEs [10:48] I was only pointing that out because of crogers thing earlier about application devs just not-using the windows key for shortcuts [10:48] Which is another reason to have the aforementioned convention. [10:48] and I found it amusing that firefox used it, but for something for which there's already a well-established norm [10:49] BigRedS, Yea, I find that there are a ton of little annoying things, which you tend to forget about, or forget around. [10:50] Yes, Super w in Unity does roughly the same thing as just the super key in gnome. [10:50] Except without the desktops. [10:50] which is a really slick feature. [10:51] Also, Unity is about half as fast gnome shell is. [10:51] I'm not sure why though. [10:51] the dash, or just moving windows aroudn? [10:52] Unity slows everything down. I mean program launches, switching windows, and god help you if you try and use the super key on a netbook in Unity. lol [10:53] Gnome is slow there too, but usable. [10:54] choose another DE? [10:54] hah, I stuck Unity on my old mac mini the other day. That was abortive :) Modern linux desktops are definitely made for modern computers [10:54] there are really fast ones that have good bling and workflow [10:54] Yea, actually Ubuntu Studio was perfect I found. [10:55] what did that run? [10:55] popey, what's the significance of adding the caret to "apt-get install ubuntu-gnome-desktop"? [10:55] Gargoyle: installs the task [10:55] Partly due to the XFCE wm, and partly due to the low-latency complied core. [10:56] The only problem is when you come back from suspend, and log in, your mouse cursor vanishes. [10:56] crogers: maybe investigate ubuntu MATE, elementary, and even solus project (if you don't mind being non ubuntu) [10:56] thats a known bug in intel driver [10:56] fixed now on my laptop [10:56] he did say Ubuntu Studio was "perfect", though, maybe no need to try anything else :) [10:56] have done, foobarry [10:57] Ubuntu Studio was the best compromise. [10:57] Never tried Solus though. [10:57] Mainly time limitations, but I like having a distro based on lts releases of ubuntu. [10:58] And it's primarily the wm that slows the system down. [10:58] Or at least, that's been my experience. [11:00] Gnome is my fav wm currently, if I have the hardware to back it up. [11:00] clipboard manager, todo.txt, and drop-down terminal are just awesome. [11:01] I know there are variations for other wms [11:01] but none heve the slick integration that these have with gnome. [11:01] gnoem were promising some good apps, are they out yet? [11:01] Or at least none of the ones I'v tried anyway. :) [11:01] nice photos app and others [11:01] foobarry, more specifically? [11:01] california calendar too [11:02] Not sure. My ver of gnome may be outdated now. [11:02] california doesn't look much better than maya on elementary actually [11:03] just switched to gnome shell to try it out, annoyed already :) [11:03] Well, you still cant double-click on a calendar entry to open calendar app in 3.18.5 [11:03] popey: haha that didn't take long [11:03] So that kinda sucks. :) [11:03] crogers: is that drop-down terminal a gnome thing or just something they've adopted? [11:04] Well, it's like guake. [11:04] but slicker. [11:04] It may be based on guake. I haven't a cluse. :) [11:04] *clue [11:04] yeah, I just remember guake having odd gnome3 theme bugs last time I was using modern desktops [11:04] haha [11:04] * davmor2 sticks with byobu [11:05] I just like having a no-border drop-down. [11:05] it just looks amasing #hipster [11:05] https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Photos [11:05] ahh, I have too many tabs for that [11:05] heh [11:05] does photos app exist? [11:05] yes [11:05] one of the default apps [11:05] oh! I thought byobu was just a .screenrc, but it looks like it might actually do some stuff I find useful [11:06] foobarry: still EOG under the shell just rebranded :) [11:07] so where's all these awesome new apps they were released [11:07] releasing [11:08] byobu is cool, but I find it more useful in-general to right-click in nautilus and choose "open terminal here" [11:08] Since I use terminal mainly to run graphical scripts. [11:08] And install stuff. [11:09] If you saw my filesystem, you'd understand why. :) [11:09] i like synapse [11:09] yeah, I do all my work in a terminal, and the notifications-to-desktop sounds useful [11:10] elementary terminal does that too [11:10] but I ssh elsewhere to run tmux *there* and hop on to other things, so it's probably too convoluted to be reliable. And do I really need to know when that rsync finishes? [11:10] when your apt-get dist-upgrade finishes in another window you get notified [11:10] a time saver [11:10] Clipboardmanager is great too. keeps a rolling history of what you've copied, so you can retrieve it later, or with hotkeys. [11:11] Also has a privacy mode switch built in. [11:12] And you can erase entries by clicking the x next to them. [11:12] where is clipboardmanager ? in the repos? [11:12] extensions.gnome.org [11:12]