[00:16] <knome> nicolaEdison, ...and since you say the website was confusing, do you have any suggestions on making it less so?
[00:16] <nicolaEdison> IDK, perhaps making a link to the IRC.
[00:17] <nicolaEdison> I found the IRC via Help/Support.
[00:17] <knome> one of the problems from the teams side is that especially with development stuff, there isn't a single good place to point people to, so it has to be kind of general
[00:17] <nicolaEdison> Everything else was suggesting I go to "launchpad" but that had no real leads from there.
[00:18] <nicolaEdison> Agreed. Not having a real "goto" place makes it difficult. I figured IRC is a good place to start.
[00:19]  * knome goes poking a bit
[00:19] <knome> but feel free to ask any questions
[00:19] <nicolaEdison> So, knome. What do you do around here.
[00:19] <Unit193> Well launchpad is were it all happens, but yeah that's not really a jumping off point.
[00:19] <knome> Unit193, krytarik and bluesabre are lurking
[00:19] <knome> well, not Unit193 any more..
[00:19] <Unit193> I was not.
[00:20] <bluesabre> hello
[00:20] <Unit193> I specifically remember hiding.
[00:20]  * bluesabre was coding, not lurking
[00:20] <nicolaEdison> Howdy all. I'm just looking to join an OS dev group.
[00:21] <nicolaEdison> I've used several flavours of Linux for several years now and I figure. I know embedded development and Assembly, why not see what I can do to help.
[00:22] <nicolaEdison> I was just wondering what all'yall do, and if anybody had any good suggestions for a starting point.
[00:24] <Unit193> Well bluesabre is the technical lead, so there's that.  Generally speaking it's recommended that you find a bug that affects you and fix it for the first go, but there's other ways too.  Xfce is C, but that's also more upstream than Xubuntu (and is currently porting everything to GTK3 now.)
[00:24] <bluesabre> pretty much exactly that ^
[00:25] <Unit193> bluesabre likes python though, and keeps thinking he should update the Xfce python bindings rather than re-implementing it in every application, but so far.. ;)
[00:25] <nicolaEdison> Huh, I have been meaning to break into more C/++ GUI based programming (so far my C manipulations have dealt with files and the like).
[00:27] <bluesabre> Xfce is a good place to start then, the apps already exist (and have plenty of bugs here or there that could do with small patches)
[00:27] <knome> nicolaEdison, i updated the "Get Involved" page, does it look less confusing now? :)
[00:27] <nicolaEdison> Well then. How should I join/start.
[00:28] <nicolaEdison> Ooh. Thanks Knome
[00:28] <Unit193> nicolaEdison: knome is website/PR/artwork, bluesabre is dev/packaging, I'm packaging/weirdstuff.
[00:28] <knome> nicolaEdison, and to answer your question, i'm one of the council members as well as the website lead.
[00:29] <knome> xfce is currently in a migration state from GTK2 to GTK3, so there's at least quite a lot of work to do...
[00:30] <bluesabre> nicolaEdison, I'd recommend hanging around here and in #xfce-dev and joining a few of the mailing lists (https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce4-dev, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel)
[00:30] <nicolaEdison> The "Get involved" page seems much more, how you say, resourceful
[00:30] <knome> well good
[00:30] <knome> even if it actually has the same amount of links and to less content ;)
[00:30] <knome> i think the problem was that the developer area was hidden too well..
[00:30] <nairwolf> hello nicolaEdison ;)
[00:31] <nicolaEdison> Knome :P Ssssh, that's how UX work
[00:31] <nicolaEdison> Hi nariwolf
[00:31] <bluesabre> nicolaEdison, https://wiki.xfce.org/contribute/easybugs might interest you to get started
[00:31] <knome> reminds me we should set up the next devel version on the tracker
[00:31] <Unit193> Our team is very IRC based too, so we all either end up using a bouncer or always-on IRC client.
[00:31] <knome> *very* IRC based
[00:32] <nicolaEdison> And people say IRC is outdated. PSSSSH
[00:32] <Unit193> Eg, half of us haven't sent anything to the mailing list this year, and some others try to avoid it like ebola. :P
[00:32] <bluesabre> lol
[00:33] <knome> bluesabre, oh man, you created all those blueprints but not an umbrella one
[00:33] <bluesabre> knome, I created a single blueprint :)
[00:33] <Unit193> bluesabre: Wait, so did we actually push the meetings back on to the council officially now?
[00:33] <nairwolf> nevetherless, I think it would be a great things to use more mailing-list. Because sometimes, you can't be here, and you can't see important things you talked. 
[00:33] <bluesabre> Unit193, hm?
[00:33] <knome> Unit193, nno?
[00:33] <nairwolf> I know you can read logs, but it's not the same thing as reading its mails
[00:34] <Unit193> knome: Hrm, OK..
[00:35] <knome> Unit193, why would we want to push more tasks for the council as we are trying to make the tasks spread out better with a council?
[00:36] <Unit193> Makes sense, we broke it out because the team lead didn't have much time, now there's 3 of 'em.
[00:37] <knome> it still doesn't mean we have three times the time, or that it's fine to dump it all on us ;)
[00:38] <knome> but i'll take a double amount of chairs if people feel like the council shouldn't slack out
[00:38] <knome> (no, not taking your turn, Unit193, just another one in the schedule)
[00:44] <electricerger> Hello, am I connected.
[00:44] <nicolaEdison> Yes, me you are
[00:44] <Unit193> So, in the sense of "XCM+team lead", then sure.
[00:44] <Unit193> Hodwy.
[00:45] <electricerger> Hi again. (This is my main tag for nicolaTessla)
[00:45] <Unit193> (Because then if someone isn't a team lead, still gets into the queue.)
[00:51] <knome> Unit193, well i guess in that sense, but i also meant that i can do double chairs as a council member.
[00:52] <knome> i really don't care if i chair 1 or 3 meetings during the cycle, as long as i don't chair every meeting
[00:53] <knome> oookay, the new release is set up @ dev.xubuntu.org
[00:54] <knome> the umbrella blueprint --> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-z-roadmap
[03:21] <bluesabre> knome, thanks!
[03:21] <bluesabre> more progress with the puzzle launcher, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNlCvLuLgkk&feature=youtu.be
[06:46] <flocculant> bluesabre: dev blueprint going to track ⚡ Thunar is dead. Long live Thunar! ⚡?
[07:21] <sorinello_> Thunar is dead ? :o
[07:22] <flocculant> it's limping so much it's going round in circles :)
[07:23] <flocculant> sorinello_: https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-09-09-22.00.log.html#l-108
[07:23] <flocculant> http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-z-filemanager
[07:25] <Unit193> sorinello_: Unless you'd like to join on the quest for the perfect patch.
[07:25] <flocculant> yup
[07:26] <Unit193> And a maintainer.
[07:28] <sorinello_> Too bad the XFCE community is not able to handle this :(
[10:07] <bluesabre> flocculant, thanks, added to the blueprint
[11:10] <flocculant> :)
[11:16] <flocculant> bluesabre: mugshot - just a thought :p
[11:16] <bluesabre> flocculant, feel free to add proposals tasks or proposals to the whiteboard :)
[11:17] <bluesabre> wrote that word a few too many times :D
[11:17] <flocculant> well I don't like to do that for you :p
[11:17] <flocculant> cos I'm nicer than people think lol
[11:17] <bluesabre> :)
[11:17] <bluesabre> I'm a jerk, if I didn't agree I'd probably remove it
[11:17] <flocculant> ha ha ha 
[11:18] <bluesabre> time to run, bbl
[11:18] <flocculant> have a good one :)
[16:36] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r478 Rebase on Adwaita 3.22.1 (Fixes #155)... (by Simon Steinbeiß)
[16:36] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r479 Also update the css files... (by Simon Steinbeiß)
[19:18] <Unit193> flocculant: Right, so the tests of upgrades went fine, an actual upgrade broke at the end, nice..
[19:19] <flocculant> very
[19:19] <flocculant> ones I did were actual upgrades - went fine
[19:19] <akxwi-dave> lol.. reminds me of 15.10 to lts.. that happened to me
[19:20] <Unit193> Just crashed at the end where it was supposed to remove some packages, so end user would have been fine too.
[19:20] <flocculant> Unit193: not too bad then - not good of course
[20:03] <amerigena> Does any developer present know when / if the Thunar bug is going to be fixed? Or, if it's even being addressed?
[20:03] <amerigena> Just curious.
[20:03] <knome> we don't even know what the cause is
[20:04] <knome> doesn't help giving estimates when it's fixed..
[20:04] <Unit193> Presuming you have thunar from yak, it'll at least crash "less"...
[20:04] <amerigena> OK.
[20:04] <amerigena> Thank you for those answers.
[20:05] <amerigena> Now, I have another question, provided you're willing to answer it.
[20:05] <amerigena> I have seen that there's a patch available, for this bug. I've applied it.
[20:05] <knome> that's likely the patch that is in yakkety you are talking about
[20:06] <amerigena> OK.
[20:06] <amerigena> I stand corrected.
[20:06] <knome> a few things have been tried but none of them fixed the bug in all situations for all people
[20:06] <knome> it might be different - if it 100% fixes the issue for you, then let us know...
[20:06] <Unit193> Or he means the one that Debian tried, then reverted because it caused more problems than it fixed.
[20:06] <amerigena> Well, that's hard to say.
[20:07] <amerigena> I can say that I tried moving an ISO file and lost it, pre-patch, and then performed the same operation and didn't lose it, post-patch, but that seems like inadequate QA to me, for the purposes of this discussion.
[20:07] <Unit193> Which patch?
[20:08] <amerigena> How much testing constitutes certainty for you?
[20:08] <knome> the crashes are relatively easy to reproduce, i haven't had to try very hard to reproduce them
[20:09] <amerigena> http://tqdev.com/2016-xubuntu-16-04-thunar-crashes-on-rename
[20:09] <amerigena> I followed the steps in this link.
[20:09] <Unit193> amerigena: That patch is in yak, as well as two others.
[20:10] <amerigena> Performed the test, Thunar crashed. Followed the steps, performed the steps again, Thunar didn't crash.
[20:11] <amerigena> Performed the TEST again.
[20:11] <amerigena> Thunar didn't crash. Should learn how to type.
[20:11] <amerigena> K
[20:11] <Unit193> And yeah, makes things less crashy, but doesn't fix entirely.
[20:11] <amerigena> So 16.10 (and all releases going forward) should include the patch.
[20:11] <amerigena> Excellent.
[20:12] <amerigena> Next question, for knome, since theming is his stock-in-trade : I've had problems with offset drop shadows on desktop fonts when changing themes.
[20:13] <amerigena> Is this an issue that's been addressed in 16.10 as well?
[20:13] <knome> i'll delegate that question to ochosi
[20:13] <knome> but i think the answer is "no"
[20:13] <knome> (but i don't use desktop icons, so...)
[20:13] <knome> i've seen a few people mention that lately though
[20:14] <amerigena> I change from Greybird to Orion, desktop fonts are messed up. Changing back to Greybird and rebooting seems to fix it.
[20:14] <knome> ah.
[20:14] <knome> maybe it's some gtk3 breakage then.
[20:14] <knome> or sth.
[20:15] <knome> generally, if it works with greybird, but not with other themes, you need to be in touch with the developers of those themes
[20:15] <knome> that isn't to say we wouldn't care about other themes working, but in those cases it sounds much more like those other themes just not being up-to-date or having something
[20:16] <knome> and ochosi has enough work with maintaining greybird already ;)
[20:20] <amerigena> Understood.
[20:20] <knome> if you want to test something with another theme that should work, try adwaita
[20:20] <amerigena> I thought that Orion was part of the shimmer-themes package that installed using the PPA for your daily builds?
[20:21] <knome> sure, but the problem is the same; not enough time to maintain all the themes with the ever-changing gtk3 stuff
[20:22] <amerigena> OK.
[20:25] <amerigena> So this an upstream issue? Until the Xfce developers fix the underlying problems, Xubuntu is going to experience these symptoms?
[20:26] <amerigena> The primary underlying problem being the constant platform changes in GTK3?
[20:27] <knome> if it works in greybird, but not orion, it's a bug in orion
[20:28] <knome> the reason why i mention gtk3 changing is that it IS indeed in a very flowing state; requirements for themes change every release
[20:29] <knome> we (read: ochosi) try to keep greybird in a state that works with the current gtk3 release in every xubuntu release
[20:37] <amerigena> OK.
[20:38] <amerigena> That's interesting.
[20:40] <amerigena> Is information like that included in the Xubuntu documentation? 
[20:40] <knome> nope.
[20:42] <amerigena> Seems like it should be. Although I can understand why it might not be. From my limited knowledge of Xubuntu, it seems like you guys suffer from a lack of contributors. The generally high quality of your finished product is very impressive, despite this fact.
[20:43] <knome> well, it's kind of the same with everything else as well
[20:43] <knome> for example, consider thunar;
[20:43] <amerigena> Right.
[20:43] <knome> we try to keep it in a usable state with whatever the current libraries are, but sometimes bugs still slip through
[20:44] <knome> the main way we try to communicate about these bugs we were unable to fix are the release announcement/notes
[20:44] <amerigena> Of course. But the fact that this "patch" exists and has been applied at the Xubuntu-level, does that mean that no work is being done on it upstream? And forgive me if I'm asking a question that you can't answer.
[20:45] <amerigena> Excuse me, "it" being Thunar.
[20:45] <knome> it doesn't
[20:45] <knome> another thing to keep in mind is that there is overlap between the xubuntu and xfce (eg. upstream) teams
[20:46] <knome> of course the developers who work with both will try the fixes on their "preferred" platform (here, xubuntu) first, before pushing upstream
[20:47] <knome> yet another thing is that upstream releases happen at more or less arbitrary times; there is no special syncing with (x)ubuntu releases
[20:47] <knome> this means sometimes patches need to be carried out as xubuntu-specific ones as the new upstream release isn't done
[20:48] <knome> and from the xubuntu POV, it's better to have the "best possible" patch in the release
[20:48] <knome> while on the xfce POV, it might not be worth it to apply a patch that seems to fix only part of the crashes that happen, thus no release
[20:49] <knome> (and now remember that one person can be part of both of the developer groups...)
[20:49] <knome> the reason why all this isn't written out is that it IS complicated
[20:49] <amerigena> Yes. It certainly seems to be. 
[20:50] <knome> so having this all, or part of it, in the documentation (that is purposefully targeted at end users) would likely just scare even more people away
[20:51] <flocculant> :)
[20:54] <Unit193> knome: You gonna look at the Xubuntu MPs?
[20:55] <knome> which ones particularly?
[20:55] <Unit193> xubuntu-docs.
[20:55] <knome> i'll peek.
[20:56] <knome> one only?
[20:59] <knome> merged
[20:59] <Unit193> krytarik: ↑ they'll build again.
[21:00] <knome> any reason we still have our main branches under ~ubuntu-core-doc?
[21:01] <knome> it kind of feels weird.
[21:01] <knome> but okay.
[21:01] <Unit193> Don't look at me, I wondered why Xubuntu Docs team can't commit to the Xubuntu docs without some outside power approving it.
[21:01] <knome> i guess it's because "those branches are used to create packages" or sth.
[21:01] <Unit193> So are the and the xubuntu-dev ones aren't?
[21:02] <Unit193> Wow, I did not just stroke out.
[21:03] <knome> yeah, i don't know
[21:03] <knome> i wonder when we'll get the new codename
[21:04] <Unit193> Going to move them so they're under our control and not that of a semi dead team?  And, later than everyone would like.  cjwatson had a nice graph.
[21:04] <knome> nice graph of what?
[21:05] <knome> i guess i could register the new branch under ~xubuntu-docs, yeah.
[21:05] <Unit193> http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/tmp/release-name-notice.png
[21:06] <knome> oh sigh
[21:06] <knome> ~xubuntu-doc vs. xubutnu-
[21:06] <knome> alkrglakfjg
[21:06] <knome> xubuntu-docs too
[21:41] <SwissBot> feed xubuntu-docs had 6 updates, showing the latest 3
[21:41] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [yakkety] r623 Launchpad automatic translations update. (by Launchpad Translations on behalf of ubuntu-core-doc)
[21:41] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [yakkety] r624 Launchpad automatic translations update. (by Launchpad Translations on behalf of ubuntu-core-doc)
[21:41] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [yakkety] r625 Merging Sean's MP.... (by Pasi Lallinaho)