[04:26] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.04 - i386 - i386 built.
[04:56] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.04 - amd64 - amd64 built.
[07:11] <Unit193> ochosi: I know what the problem there is.
[07:19] <Unit193> flocculant: Wooo!  May have even fixed it!  After apt update, check  apt list | grep ed,loc  and check what's there.  I deleted xfconf from the PPA quite some time ago, but looks like it never got deleted from LP (just hidden from view), so I hit the delete button a few more times right now and it's no longer in the archive either.
[07:20] <Unit193> ochosi: ↑
[07:22] <ochosi> Unit193: oh, it was the "new"/unreleased gtk3 port of xfconf?
[07:22] <Unit193> Yeah, the crappy one that breaks everything.  Hence why stuff was broken. :D
[07:24] <ochosi> humpf
[07:24] <ochosi> thanks for noticing :)
[07:24] <ochosi> that would have been nasty to debug
[07:25] <Unit193> I fixed/re-installed/etc my VM.
[07:33] <Unit193> ochosi: Howdy.
[07:35] <ochosi> and howdy, what's up? :)
[07:36] <Unit193> Not much at 0240.
[07:43] <flocculant> Unit193: I'll reinstall my vm - and recheck that gtk3 stuff then - purging ppa and re-adding I still see problem
[07:43] <flocculant> I notice the ppa is emptier than it was though :)
[07:43] <Unit193> flocculant: As of a few minutes ago?  And yeah, pushing them to zesty.  Did you get anything back from that command?
[07:45] <flocculant> ppa purge worked ok - ppa add appeared to have issues 
[07:46] <flocculant> I'll be awake this afternoon :p
[11:33] <bluesabre> Unit193, I would have never figured that out
[12:17] <ochosi> hey bluesabre 
[12:29] <flocculant> ochosi bluesabre Unit193 - now running gtk3 ppa in zesty here again - at least the few bits left in the ppa
[22:08] <Unit193> flocculant: Did you do whatever it was that you were going to do later, btw?
[22:09] <flocculant> Unit193: perhaps ...
[22:09] <flocculant> if it was gtk3 - then yea - have that now on this machine 
[22:10] <flocculant> knome: so I'm back with that really annoying login to admin on x.o and only get my profile thing again :(
[22:10] <flocculant> and now ...
[22:11] <flocculant> took ~10 tries
[22:11] <knome> hmm.
[22:11] <knome> oh well, IS issues:P
[22:11] <flocculant> yea :p
[22:15] <flocculant> knome: ok site updated 
[22:15] <knome> thanks again
[22:16] <ochosi> Unit193: any plans for setting up a meeting?
[22:16] <Unit193> Oh I'm next?
[22:17] <ochosi> it seems
[22:17] <knome> Unit193, do you not read meeting logs?
[22:17] <Unit193> knome: Read: yes, remember: no.
[22:21] <Unit193> ochosi: Need something specific?
[22:21] <ochosi> nope, just a friendly reminder
[22:21] <Unit193> OK, cool.  Thanks then.
[22:25] <flocculant> knome: mailed list with changes too
[22:25] <flocculant> evening ochosi :)
[22:25] <knome> cheerio
[22:25] <flocculant> knome: cya 
[22:25] <flocculant> though I'm not sure you meant that :p
[22:26] <knome> nope :P
[22:26] <flocculant> :D
[22:27] <bluesabre> hey ochosi 
[22:27] <bluesabre> and hi everyone
[22:27] <flocculant> hi bluesabre 
[22:27] <ochosi> evening bluesabre 
[22:27] <Unit193> bluesabre: Howdy.
[22:28] <bluesabre> hey!
[22:28] <Unit193> ochosi: Unless specifically called for, upcoming weeks are going to be a bit more complicated.
[22:28] <ochosi> well we can do an impromptu meeting now ;)
[22:29] <ochosi> knome, bluesabre: we should also do our initial council meeting...
[22:29] <knome> yep
[22:29] <bluesabre> ochosi, indeed
[22:29] <ochosi> bluesabre: plus, if/when you have time, maybe discuss some roadmappy things (which would mostly belong to #xfce-dev prolly)
[22:30] <bluesabre> ochosi, anytime
[22:30] <bluesabre> (including now)
[22:30] <knome> yeah, works for me
[22:30] <ochosi> k, why not
[22:32] <flocculant> Unit193: you're off that hook then - swim away quickly :p
[22:32] <Unit193> flocculant: Swimming then.
[22:33] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu council meeting
[22:33] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 23 22:33:39 2016 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[22:33] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[22:33] <knome> #chair ochosi bluesabre 
[22:33] <meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre knome ochosi
[22:33] <bluesabre> woohoo
[22:34] <knome> anything specific we want in the agenda?
[22:34] <bluesabre> nothing specific from me
[22:35] <slickymaster> whatie!?!?!?!
[22:35] <knome> slickymaster?
[22:35] <slickymaster> meeting today?
[22:35] <knome> slickymaster, council, impromptu
[22:35] <slickymaster> oh
[22:35] <slickymaster> sorry 
[22:35] <knome> but feel free to follow and comment if there's something
[22:35] <bluesabre> (surprise!)
[22:35] <knome> ochosi, anything for the agenda?
[22:36] <ochosi> the only specific thing i would like to finalize (although we have discussed it previously via email) is our communication channels
[22:36] <knome> mhm
[22:36] <ochosi> we can also discuss and finalize other generic stuff like voting
[22:36] <ochosi> but my presumption is that it'll be the same as with general votes
[22:36] <knome> my other item is the blog article for council that has been under work 
[22:36] <knome> ok, so
[22:36] <knome> #topic Council communication
[22:36] <ochosi> good
[22:37] <knome> this has indeed been discussed before in council-exclusive emails, and the gist is:
[22:37] <knome> (correct me if i'm wrong)
[22:38] <knome> eugh, sorry for the delay
[22:38] <bluesabre> :)
[22:38] <knome> so the basic gist:
[22:39] <knome> - the council decides whether any discussion needs to be private, but mostly it will be public
[22:39] <knome> - if a decision is made in private, the reasons behind the decision will still be made public
[22:39] <knome> - the council will NOT have a separate mailing list (even a private one) for now
[22:40] <flocculant> mmm
[22:40] <knome> anything that needs clarification?
[22:40] <flocculant> point
[22:40] <knome> sure
[22:40] <ochosi> i'd explicitely say that we'll use the xubuntu devel ml for now
[22:40] <ochosi> not just "NO separate ml"
[22:40] <bluesabre> yeah, I'd agree with that
[22:41] <knome> ochosi, well yeah, that's implied; we'll use the regular communication methods unless we want to discuss something in private
[22:41] <knome> but ok
[22:41] <flocculant> while I can understand not wanting to do the whole private m/l - that means that discussion that might be private are not ever available to council members in future
[22:41] <flocculant> which could be an issue perhaps
[22:41] <knome> flocculant, we did discuss that
[22:41] <knome> it's actually very likely that kind of discussion would happen in IRC
[22:41] <knome> so there would have to be some kind of logging for that
[22:42] <flocculant> mmm
[22:42] <ochosi> also, "the reasons behind the decision will still be made public"
[22:42] <flocculant> well - I'm just making the point is all :) 
[22:42] <ochosi> this implies to me that not just the decision but also the gist of the discussion shall be made public
[22:42] <knome> flocculant, sure, wanted to let you know that we did indeed think about it
[22:42] <flocculant> ochosi: not sure that makes a lot of difference
[22:42] <knome> ochosi, indeed
[22:43] <flocculant> anyway - point made :)
[22:43] <ochosi> point taken
[22:43] <knome> ochosi, wasn't that what we agreed on?
[22:43] <ochosi> knome: yup, just wanted to say it expressis verbis
[22:43] <bluesabre> Do we want to utilize a tag when communicated over the mailing list, e.g. [COUNCIL] to make it easier to sort out historical discussion?
[22:43] <knome> again, obviously if it's anything that requires keeping stuff private for intimacy reasons, then it's not going to be released
[22:44] <knome> bluesabre, that sounds like we should just create that mailing list :P
[22:44] <knome> and flocculant's point on the -offtopic channel speaks for that too
[22:44] <bluesabre> knome, yeah, but we also use [TEAM] for team discussion on the devel list
[22:44] <knome> in any case, i don't think that list will be very high traffic
[22:45] <bluesabre> (or have in the past)
[22:45] <knome> bluesabre, i don't think we'd take "council discussion" to the mailing list
[22:45] <knome> i mean...
[22:45] <knome> again, it feels like it's more suited for IRC and real-time
[22:45] <bluesabre> so it would be more, announcements from the council
[22:45] <knome> yes
[22:45] <bluesabre> that's reasonable
[22:46] <knome> and those announcements do not concern the council only, they are whole project, so i'm not sure what the council tag would be for 
[22:46] <knome> "this is what the council will force on you all"
[22:46] <knome> :P
[22:46] <bluesabre> "Ugh, another COUNCIL email"
[22:46] <knome> (no, please not like that, i want the council to be as transparent and at the same level as the team9
[22:46] <bluesabre> right
[22:47] <ochosi> yeah
[22:47] <bluesabre> so most (if not all) council communication occurs on #xubuntu-devel, announcements are made to the -devel m/l
[22:47] <ochosi> to me the council is also a safety net against the "single point of failure" XPL
[22:48] <knome> so,
[22:48] <knome> should it all be expressed this way:
[22:48] <ochosi> so not that much active "council stuff" is going to go down in my expectation at least
[22:48] <bluesabre> That's how I also understand it
[22:48] <knome> - council will do any discussion-like communication on IRC, announcements and requests for feedback on -devel
[22:48] <knome> that is, for THIS council setup
[22:49] <knome> this isn't something we'll write on the strategy document
[22:49] <knome> (but maybe we should consider adding something general there about the public/private discussion part)
[22:50] <ochosi> you mean to not prevent future councils to take a more proactive approach..?
[22:50]  * knome shrugs
[22:50] <bluesabre> largely to just have an official statement on these things should questions or eyebrows be raised
[22:51] <knome> why do we have a strategy document if the strategy is whatever the majority of currently active people agree on?
[22:51] <knome> of course future councils or whatever can just change the section on the SD
[22:52] <bluesabre> certainly
[22:53] <knome> ok, so
[22:53] <knome> 1) most discussion is public, private only if the council feels it's required for the issue at hand
[22:55] <knome> 2) if discussion is private, any decisions and the rationale for the decision will be made public, unless making the rational public would infringe personal privacy or something alike
[22:56] <knome> 3) council discussion will mostly be had in IRC; the xubuntu-devel mailing list is used for any council announcements and requests for feedback
[22:56] <knome> 4) council announcements will also be announced on the community meetings
[22:56] <ochosi> sounds good to me
[22:57] <knome> 5) the council will have scheduled and/or impromptu meetings on #xubuntu-devel; the meeting minutes (and logs) will be sent to the xubuntu-devel mailing list
[22:57] <knome> phew
[22:59] <knome> did somebody want to mull over the public/private discussion issue and the decision making leading to a private one?
[22:59] <knome> eg. do we need to express more clearly that the council will not take discussions private unless the council really thinks privacy requires it or it is a really sensitive issue otherwise?
[23:00] <knome> apparently not
[23:00] <knome> #action knome to send a summary of the council communication discussion to the ML
[23:00] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to send a summary of the council communication discussion to the ML
[23:00] <bluesabre> anything that even suggests a lack of transparency or openness is generally going to be frowned upon
[23:00] <Unit193> knome: Only thing I can think of is sending the private logs to the team server so that they're more archived for later council members.
[23:01] <knome> Unit193, right, the only "issue" with that is that people not in the council have access to that
[23:01] <knome> again, not a statement of trust issues, but it's not foolproof
[23:01] <Unit193> Indeed, thought of that.
[23:01] <knome> also, does ochosi have access to the server?
[23:01] <knome> or bluesabre?
[23:02] <ochosi> nope
[23:02] <bluesabre> nope
[23:02] <ochosi> not that i know of
[23:02] <knome> so again if we want to do something like this, i'd just vote for creating that mailing list
[23:02] <bluesabre> certainly not the council server :D
[23:02] <knome> and sending the meeting logs to the council ML
[23:02] <knome> the ownership of a ML is easy to transfer when the council seats change
[23:02] <slickymaster> I think that the ability of those logs being available to future councilmembers is important, imo
[23:03] <knome> you think, in your opinion
[23:03] <knome> i'd never thought of that
[23:03] <knome> *trollface*
[23:03] <Unit193> knome: Was just an idea as a way to archive them, though yeah it's a bit moot if you do setup the ML after all.
[23:04] <knome> i mean instead of doing the weird server setup, just do it on the ML - don't even need to use that for anything else
[23:04] <knome> there is no guarantee that the xubuntu devel server will always exist
[23:04] <bluesabre> yeah
[23:06] <knome> so at this point i see no reason to set up anything like this
[23:06] <knome> -- however, if a private discussion is needed, the council should reasses the situation
[23:06] <knome> +s
[23:07] <knome> ok, i think that's clear now :P
[23:07] <knome> anything else on this subject?
[23:08] <ochosi> nope
[23:08] <ochosi> i think this is fine
[23:08] <knome> #topic Blog article about the council
[23:09] <knome> without further ado, we have one under draft at http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-council-article
[23:09] <knome> we probably want "something personal" there too about the council members
[23:11] <bluesabre> I can agree with that
[23:12] <bluesabre> I'm also for having this in general for our team for anybody that wants to put their name on the site or wiki
[23:12] <knome> there have been talks about an "introducing the xubuntu team" article series for ever...
[23:13] <knome> so anyway, we can likely continue working on that article outside of the official meeting
[23:14] <knome> does anybody have any ideas what we should/could have there?
[23:15] <ochosi> to me the structure and content looks fine
[23:15] <ochosi> we can finalize this outside the meeting
[23:15] <knome> oki
[23:16] <knome> anything else?
[23:16] <ochosi> nope, fine by me
[23:16] <bluesabre> I think we're good with that
[23:17] <knome> so anything else on anything else?
[23:18] <knome> does the general public have any questions for the council?
[23:18] <knome> :P
[23:18] <bluesabre> I don't think so... I can imagine that our activity (as a single acting body) will be incredibly rare
[23:22] <bluesabre> Any questions can be directed to the mailing list and added to the Meetings discussion to be picked up as we go
[23:22] <knome> yes
[23:22] <knome> thanks
[23:22] <knome> #endmeeting
[23:22] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 23 23:22:24 2016 UTC.  
[23:22] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-11-23-22.33.moin.txt
[23:23] <bluesabre> woo
[23:23] <ochosi> cool, thanks bluesabre and knome 
[23:23] <bluesabre> thanks knome
[23:23] <bluesabre> thanks ochosi
[23:23] <bluesabre> thanks lurkers
[23:23] <knome> thanks sean, simon
[23:23] <Unit193> Thanks XPC.
[23:23] <knome> and the bots
[23:23] <bluesabre> peanut gallery, you guys are important too
[23:23] <Unit193> \o/
[23:31]  * genii sweeps up all the crumpled balls of paper, and cleans the coffee machine