[04:26] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.04 - i386 - i386 built. [04:56] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.04 - amd64 - amd64 built. [07:11] ochosi: I know what the problem there is. [07:19] flocculant: Wooo! May have even fixed it! After apt update, check apt list | grep ed,loc and check what's there. I deleted xfconf from the PPA quite some time ago, but looks like it never got deleted from LP (just hidden from view), so I hit the delete button a few more times right now and it's no longer in the archive either. [07:20] ochosi: ↑ [07:22] Unit193: oh, it was the "new"/unreleased gtk3 port of xfconf? [07:22] Yeah, the crappy one that breaks everything. Hence why stuff was broken. :D [07:24] humpf [07:24] thanks for noticing :) [07:24] that would have been nasty to debug [07:25] I fixed/re-installed/etc my VM. [07:33] ochosi: Howdy. [07:35] and howdy, what's up? :) [07:36] Not much at 0240. [07:43] Unit193: I'll reinstall my vm - and recheck that gtk3 stuff then - purging ppa and re-adding I still see problem [07:43] I notice the ppa is emptier than it was though :) [07:43] flocculant: As of a few minutes ago? And yeah, pushing them to zesty. Did you get anything back from that command? [07:45] ppa purge worked ok - ppa add appeared to have issues [07:46] I'll be awake this afternoon :p [11:33] Unit193, I would have never figured that out [12:17] hey bluesabre [12:29] ochosi bluesabre Unit193 - now running gtk3 ppa in zesty here again - at least the few bits left in the ppa [22:08] flocculant: Did you do whatever it was that you were going to do later, btw? [22:09] Unit193: perhaps ... [22:09] if it was gtk3 - then yea - have that now on this machine [22:10] knome: so I'm back with that really annoying login to admin on x.o and only get my profile thing again :( [22:10] and now ... [22:11] took ~10 tries [22:11] hmm. [22:11] oh well, IS issues:P [22:11] yea :p [22:15] knome: ok site updated [22:15] thanks again [22:16] Unit193: any plans for setting up a meeting? [22:16] Oh I'm next? [22:17] it seems [22:17] Unit193, do you not read meeting logs? [22:17] knome: Read: yes, remember: no. [22:21] ochosi: Need something specific? [22:21] nope, just a friendly reminder [22:21] OK, cool. Thanks then. [22:25] knome: mailed list with changes too [22:25] evening ochosi :) [22:25] cheerio [22:25] knome: cya [22:25] though I'm not sure you meant that :p [22:26] nope :P [22:26] :D [22:27] hey ochosi [22:27] and hi everyone [22:27] hi bluesabre [22:27] evening bluesabre [22:27] bluesabre: Howdy. [22:28] hey! [22:28] ochosi: Unless specifically called for, upcoming weeks are going to be a bit more complicated. [22:28] well we can do an impromptu meeting now ;) [22:29] knome, bluesabre: we should also do our initial council meeting... [22:29] yep [22:29] ochosi, indeed [22:29] bluesabre: plus, if/when you have time, maybe discuss some roadmappy things (which would mostly belong to #xfce-dev prolly) [22:30] ochosi, anytime [22:30] (including now) [22:30] yeah, works for me [22:30] k, why not [22:32] Unit193: you're off that hook then - swim away quickly :p [22:32] flocculant: Swimming then. [22:33] #startmeeting Xubuntu council meeting [22:33] Meeting started Wed Nov 23 22:33:39 2016 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [22:33] Available commands: action commands idea info link nick [22:33] #chair ochosi bluesabre [22:33] Current chairs: bluesabre knome ochosi [22:33] woohoo [22:34] anything specific we want in the agenda? [22:34] nothing specific from me [22:35] whatie!?!?!?! [22:35] slickymaster? [22:35] meeting today? [22:35] slickymaster, council, impromptu [22:35] oh [22:35] sorry [22:35] but feel free to follow and comment if there's something [22:35] (surprise!) [22:35] ochosi, anything for the agenda? [22:36] the only specific thing i would like to finalize (although we have discussed it previously via email) is our communication channels [22:36] mhm [22:36] we can also discuss and finalize other generic stuff like voting [22:36] but my presumption is that it'll be the same as with general votes [22:36] my other item is the blog article for council that has been under work [22:36] ok, so [22:36] #topic Council communication [22:36] good [22:37] this has indeed been discussed before in council-exclusive emails, and the gist is: [22:37] (correct me if i'm wrong) [22:38] eugh, sorry for the delay [22:38] :) [22:38] so the basic gist: [22:39] - the council decides whether any discussion needs to be private, but mostly it will be public [22:39] - if a decision is made in private, the reasons behind the decision will still be made public [22:39] - the council will NOT have a separate mailing list (even a private one) for now [22:40] mmm [22:40] anything that needs clarification? [22:40] point [22:40] sure [22:40] i'd explicitely say that we'll use the xubuntu devel ml for now [22:40] not just "NO separate ml" [22:40] yeah, I'd agree with that [22:41] ochosi, well yeah, that's implied; we'll use the regular communication methods unless we want to discuss something in private [22:41] but ok [22:41] while I can understand not wanting to do the whole private m/l - that means that discussion that might be private are not ever available to council members in future [22:41] which could be an issue perhaps [22:41] flocculant, we did discuss that [22:41] it's actually very likely that kind of discussion would happen in IRC [22:41] so there would have to be some kind of logging for that [22:42] mmm [22:42] also, "the reasons behind the decision will still be made public" [22:42] well - I'm just making the point is all :) [22:42] this implies to me that not just the decision but also the gist of the discussion shall be made public [22:42] flocculant, sure, wanted to let you know that we did indeed think about it [22:42] ochosi: not sure that makes a lot of difference [22:42] ochosi, indeed [22:43] anyway - point made :) [22:43] point taken [22:43] ochosi, wasn't that what we agreed on? [22:43] knome: yup, just wanted to say it expressis verbis [22:43] Do we want to utilize a tag when communicated over the mailing list, e.g. [COUNCIL] to make it easier to sort out historical discussion? [22:43] again, obviously if it's anything that requires keeping stuff private for intimacy reasons, then it's not going to be released [22:44] bluesabre, that sounds like we should just create that mailing list :P [22:44] and flocculant's point on the -offtopic channel speaks for that too [22:44] knome, yeah, but we also use [TEAM] for team discussion on the devel list [22:44] in any case, i don't think that list will be very high traffic [22:45] (or have in the past) [22:45] bluesabre, i don't think we'd take "council discussion" to the mailing list [22:45] i mean... [22:45] again, it feels like it's more suited for IRC and real-time [22:45] so it would be more, announcements from the council [22:45] yes [22:45] that's reasonable [22:46] and those announcements do not concern the council only, they are whole project, so i'm not sure what the council tag would be for [22:46] "this is what the council will force on you all" [22:46] :P [22:46] "Ugh, another COUNCIL email" [22:46] (no, please not like that, i want the council to be as transparent and at the same level as the team9 [22:46] right [22:47] yeah [22:47] so most (if not all) council communication occurs on #xubuntu-devel, announcements are made to the -devel m/l [22:47] to me the council is also a safety net against the "single point of failure" XPL [22:48] so, [22:48] should it all be expressed this way: [22:48] so not that much active "council stuff" is going to go down in my expectation at least [22:48] That's how I also understand it [22:48] - council will do any discussion-like communication on IRC, announcements and requests for feedback on -devel [22:48] that is, for THIS council setup [22:49] this isn't something we'll write on the strategy document [22:49] (but maybe we should consider adding something general there about the public/private discussion part) [22:50] you mean to not prevent future councils to take a more proactive approach..? [22:50] * knome shrugs [22:50] largely to just have an official statement on these things should questions or eyebrows be raised [22:51] why do we have a strategy document if the strategy is whatever the majority of currently active people agree on? [22:51] of course future councils or whatever can just change the section on the SD [22:52] certainly [22:53] ok, so [22:53] 1) most discussion is public, private only if the council feels it's required for the issue at hand [22:55] 2) if discussion is private, any decisions and the rationale for the decision will be made public, unless making the rational public would infringe personal privacy or something alike [22:56] 3) council discussion will mostly be had in IRC; the xubuntu-devel mailing list is used for any council announcements and requests for feedback [22:56] 4) council announcements will also be announced on the community meetings [22:56] sounds good to me [22:57] 5) the council will have scheduled and/or impromptu meetings on #xubuntu-devel; the meeting minutes (and logs) will be sent to the xubuntu-devel mailing list [22:57] phew [22:59] did somebody want to mull over the public/private discussion issue and the decision making leading to a private one? [22:59] eg. do we need to express more clearly that the council will not take discussions private unless the council really thinks privacy requires it or it is a really sensitive issue otherwise? [23:00] apparently not [23:00] #action knome to send a summary of the council communication discussion to the ML [23:00] ACTION: knome to send a summary of the council communication discussion to the ML [23:00] anything that even suggests a lack of transparency or openness is generally going to be frowned upon [23:00] knome: Only thing I can think of is sending the private logs to the team server so that they're more archived for later council members. [23:01] Unit193, right, the only "issue" with that is that people not in the council have access to that [23:01] again, not a statement of trust issues, but it's not foolproof [23:01] Indeed, thought of that. [23:01] also, does ochosi have access to the server? [23:01] or bluesabre? [23:02] nope [23:02] nope [23:02] not that i know of [23:02] so again if we want to do something like this, i'd just vote for creating that mailing list [23:02] certainly not the council server :D [23:02] and sending the meeting logs to the council ML [23:02] the ownership of a ML is easy to transfer when the council seats change [23:02] I think that the ability of those logs being available to future councilmembers is important, imo [23:03] you think, in your opinion [23:03] i'd never thought of that [23:03] *trollface* [23:03] knome: Was just an idea as a way to archive them, though yeah it's a bit moot if you do setup the ML after all. [23:04] i mean instead of doing the weird server setup, just do it on the ML - don't even need to use that for anything else [23:04] there is no guarantee that the xubuntu devel server will always exist [23:04] yeah [23:06] so at this point i see no reason to set up anything like this [23:06] -- however, if a private discussion is needed, the council should reasses the situation [23:06] +s [23:07] ok, i think that's clear now :P [23:07] anything else on this subject? [23:08] nope [23:08] i think this is fine [23:08] #topic Blog article about the council [23:09] without further ado, we have one under draft at http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-council-article [23:09] we probably want "something personal" there too about the council members [23:11] I can agree with that [23:12] I'm also for having this in general for our team for anybody that wants to put their name on the site or wiki [23:12] there have been talks about an "introducing the xubuntu team" article series for ever... [23:13] so anyway, we can likely continue working on that article outside of the official meeting [23:14] does anybody have any ideas what we should/could have there? [23:15] to me the structure and content looks fine [23:15] we can finalize this outside the meeting [23:15] oki [23:16] anything else? [23:16] nope, fine by me [23:16] I think we're good with that [23:17] so anything else on anything else? [23:18] does the general public have any questions for the council? [23:18] :P [23:18] I don't think so... I can imagine that our activity (as a single acting body) will be incredibly rare [23:22] Any questions can be directed to the mailing list and added to the Meetings discussion to be picked up as we go [23:22] yes [23:22] thanks [23:22] #endmeeting [23:22] Meeting ended Wed Nov 23 23:22:24 2016 UTC. [23:22] Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-11-23-22.33.moin.txt [23:23] woo [23:23] cool, thanks bluesabre and knome [23:23] thanks knome [23:23] thanks ochosi [23:23] thanks lurkers [23:23] thanks sean, simon [23:23] Thanks XPC. [23:23] and the bots [23:23] peanut gallery, you guys are important too [23:23] \o/ [23:31] * genii sweeps up all the crumpled balls of paper, and cleans the coffee machine