[08:20] hi all [08:30] good morning \o [08:31] hiya daftykins - how are you today? [08:31] "where do you want to go today?" [08:31] Microsoft :O [08:32] not bad here thanks, i watched 'The BFG' earlier - it was great :D [08:32] most British folk of my gen grew up reading Roald Dahl novels :> [08:32] how be thee? [08:32] saw that at the cinema with my nephew - he loved it :) [08:33] i grew up reading roald dahl myself. i'm fine, thanks, drinking tea and taking it easy. [08:33] \o/ [08:33] buttered scones and coffee here :D [08:35] sounds good :) plans for the day? [08:36] i've been looking up options for wall mounting that expensive new TV, plus dealing with the old [08:36] so may pop up there later [08:37] ah, how big is the new one? [08:37] 65" using a 300x200 VESA mount - whilst the current one uses some annoying Pioneer own bracket [08:39] nice. i wish all tv's/monitors could use vesa mounts... [08:39] even when they do, they keep changing size XD [08:40] oh i need to return some shoes to amazon too, as they sent me the wrong ones [08:41] i'm going to look online for a wider desk, kind of want a third screen. [08:43] :D [08:44] someime today i'm also going to decide whether or not to buy that receiver, need to check a few other options first. [08:45] ah exciting times! [08:46] i wonder if it's worth me popping in a shop or two to look at deals going on [08:46] not really anything i want right now though :) [08:46] there's always stuff i _want_, but little i actually _need_... [08:47] :D [08:50] seems like there's still deals going on here, just after a brief look online... [08:51] ah har [08:51] yeah cyber monday now ;) [08:55] aha, ic. can't find anything very interesting, though. [08:57] seems to be a 5 bluray for £30 deal going on [08:59] not really my scene... [09:00] me neither. found an ok'ish tv, but the one i have is still functional. [09:01] besides, i don't need uhd. [09:01] you have to spend a fair chunk to get a 10-bit panel in one, the budget ones use an 8-bit so HDR is going to suffer [09:01] i was tempted but yeah, maybe in the new year - or later still [09:01] CES is January so maybe 2017 models will reinvent the wheel ;) [09:02] :) did you see the zen naming style? [09:03] ooh no as in AMD CPUs have been announced? [09:03] sr3, sr5, sr7. wonder where they got that idea. [09:03] wowzer [09:05] hmm January 17th rumour too [09:06] i really hope zen will be good, but i'm not holding my breath. they can't keep this up forever. [09:07] indeed [09:07] how long has it been since they made something decent? 7-8-9 years or so? [09:08] especially after all the talk about the RX 480 and it ended up being yawn [09:09] i hear people complaining about the performance of their latest gpu models all the time, but i'm not familiar with them. [09:09] hmm can't imagine what that's about [09:09] my nvidia 1070 is lovely :D [09:10] i can imagine :) [09:10] how many outputs does it have? [09:10] now it's winter i don't even think the fans spin under game load [09:11] 3 x DP, 1 x HDMI and 1 x DVI [09:11] wow. can it use all at once? [09:14] 4 at once apparently [09:14] still good, most are limited to 3. [09:15] yeah although there's displayport daisy chaining [09:15] only seems to be on premium displays though [09:18] i've noticed, you need to spend a little to get that. [09:18] my ol' 1920x1200 displays will keep going for ages probably :) even have DP input [09:20] haven't even used the office in a bit since i brought the PC downstairs to try out on the TV [09:20] oof 20 past already, i best go do something :D [09:20] ok, have a nice day! [09:20] ttyl [09:21] and you :) \o [09:21] p.s. http://go.linuxfoundation.org/cyber-monday-2016 hmm [09:22] hmm... [11:54] not bad pricing .. [11:56] not at all... AND you get a t-shirt! :D [11:56] ... yay [13:27] Hiyas all [13:28] hi, how are you BluesKaj? [13:35] hi ducasse, ok here, and you? [13:36] good thanks, playing with arch in a chroot. the installation is *ridiculously* labor-intensive... [13:44] yup, installed arch as few yrs ago, but I was disappointed in the OS , it was pretty ordinary for all the work needed to install, anticlimactic comes to mind [13:54] hehe :) i'm just trying it out in search of something for my desktop, and it's a more attractive proposition than gentoo for example. [13:55] in the end i'll probably stick to ubuntu, but it's interesting to look at how other distros do things from time to time. [14:06] I'm thinking about sparky linux for fun, seems like an interesting OS with the Deepin desktop [14:08] I'm not a gnome/unity or even mate fan and I'm tired of the restrictions plasma5 has put on KDE...I'd like to explore something new [14:09] I'll stick with yakkety as my main OS of course [14:12] i really wish there were as meny things available through ppas as through the aur, there's a lot of stuff i need to build myself now. that's mainly the reason i'm looking at arch for the desktop. === nicomach1s is now known as nicomachus === JanC_ is now known as JanC [20:23] Bashing-om: hiya Bashing-om - good morning to you :) [20:24] ducasse: And A fine day it is .. Hope your's goes as well . [20:26] Bashing-om: yup, been playing with arch today, setting it up on my desktop as a test. need to play with new toys now and then :) [20:29] ducasse: welp, will get a new perspective on things, huh .. Change can be good . Nawwww .. I am old and set in my ways . I *like* it steady; LOL [20:31] Bashing-om: for 99.999% of things i use computers for, i want something that's quick to get going and just works™ - ubuntu is great for that. for this machine, though, i need a lot of personal customization etc, so it's worth a look. worst case, i drop it but have learned something new. [20:34] Well. You know my takes on fast and easy . I am fortunate in my needs that thus far the software repo meets all . [20:37] me too, so i might end up just compiling the rest in a container on ubuntu or somthing, right now i'm really just evaluating options. as i said, at least i will learn something :) [20:37] btw; bought the humble bundle unix books bundle today, lots of goodies there. [20:40] i was merely saying that "supported flavors are those flavors which are supported" is circular reasoning. [20:40] the reason i said this is because the class "Supported flavors" is defined in terms of itself. [20:42] NoImNotNineVolt: Yea I suppose that would be circular, but where does it say that? [20:42] !ubuntu [20:42] Ubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system, freely available with both community and professional support. It is developed by a large community and we invite you to participate too! - Also see http://www.ubuntu.com [20:42] !flavors [20:42] Recognized Ubuntu flavors build on Ubuntu and provide a different user experience out of the box. They are supported both in #ubuntu and in their flavor channel. The current list is: !Edubuntu, !Ubuntu-GNOME, !Kubuntu, Ubuntu !Kylin, !Lubuntu, !Mythbuntu, Ubuntu !Studio, !Xubuntu, and Ubuntu !MATE [20:42] There's no circular logic there. It just lists what's supported [20:42] NoImNotNineVolt: unless someone else said that, I don't see what you quoted anywhere [20:43] 20:34 < NoImNotNineVolt> so then it's not accurate that only ubuntu is supported here? [20:43] 20:34 < nicomachus> NoImNotNineVolt: ubuntu and supported flavors. [20:43] I think you're being needlessly nit-picky [20:43] wow [20:43] popey: +1 [20:43] to rephrase with context, nicomachus was claiming that the supported flavors of ubuntu are "supported flavors". [20:43] they probably meant "valid flavours" [20:44] this is quite possibly the best waste of time discussion I've had today. Congratulations. [20:44] NoImNotNineVolt: also, that's out of context [20:44] (not everyone has En-US or En-GB as their first language) [20:44] perhaps i'm mistaken, then. [20:44] indeed, english isn't my first language either. [20:45] Since the previous thing that nicomachus said was the query for ubottu to state the suported flavors [20:45] technicall you could use "supported flavours" in two ways [20:45] 1) supported in #ubuntu (the context the bot used) [20:45] 2) supported by canonical (in that they are official flavours) [20:46] i wasn't aware of any distinction there. [20:46] is there one? [20:46] so saying "ubuntu and supported flavours (definition 2) are supported (definition 1) in #ubuntu" :) [20:46] sure [20:46] mint is not a supported flavour [20:46] nor elementary [20:46] by the channel or by canonical? [20:46] but Ubuntu MATE and Kubuntu are, because they're built using software from the Ubuntu archive only. [20:47] by both [20:47] one begats the other [20:47] ... [20:47] let me rephrase my question. [20:47] to rephrase what nicomachus said, "The supported flavors are ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu " NoImNotNineVolt: 'So then not only Ubuntu is supported here' nicomachus "Ubuntu and supported flavors are supported here". It seems obvious that the previous list of supported flavors doesn't need repeating a second time in < 5 minutes [20:47] mine is not supported by canonical, and thus is not supported by #ubuntu [20:47] *mint [20:47] i wasn't aware of any distinction between the two classes you noted. are their elements that belong to one set and not the other? [20:47] ducasse: Now If I were real die-hard and really wanted it fast(er) .. there is LFS . Nothing can replace a made-from-scratch, compile-your-own kernel . [20:47] (note: things which belong to neither set do not satisfy the requirements stated) [20:47] no [20:47] however [20:48] so there is no practical distinction? [20:48] there are flavours which aren't _well_ supported [20:48] (in #ubuntu) [20:48] fair enough. [20:48] so we throw users at flavour specific channels [20:48] e.g. kubuntu, ubuntu server [20:48] also, while i'm here, i'd say that "derivative distribution" is a generally more precise than "flavor" [20:48] No [20:48] Incorrect [20:48] popey: well if that's the definition, there is a 3rd level of 'supported' [20:48] Flavour is a very specific term [20:48] Derivative distro is another specific term [20:48] indeed, maybe that's where i'm getting confused. [20:48] they have different meanings [20:49] 3) supported by canonical, via a support contract (ubuntu advantage) [20:49] <\9> derivative distro is something that's based on ubuntu [20:49] <\9> not necessarily supported [20:49] exactly, like mint or elementary [20:49] are flavors necessarily supported? [20:49] flavour = built from the archive [20:49] derivative = might not be [20:49] !flavor [20:49] Recognized Ubuntu flavors build on Ubuntu and provide a different user experience out of the box. They are supported both in #ubuntu and in their flavor channel. The current list is: !Edubuntu, !Ubuntu-GNOME, !Kubuntu, Ubuntu !Kylin, !Lubuntu, !Mythbuntu, Ubuntu !Studio, !Xubuntu, and Ubuntu !MATE [20:49] flavors are supported in #ubuntu [20:49] and their own channels too [20:50] so an 'unsupported flavor' is inherently contradictory? [20:50] yes [20:50] there is no such thing [20:50] <\9> well you could build your own flavor.. that's not going to be supported [20:50] no [20:50] <\9> and wasn't mythbuntu dropped? [20:50] you could build a remix [20:50] \9: no you can't [20:50] or a derivative [20:50] but it wouldn't be a flavour until blessed by the tech board [20:50] <\9> ah right [20:50] <\9> so it'll be a derivative even though it only uses the ubuntu core [20:50] flavor means it was blessed by tech board and built on canonical hardware [20:51] yes [20:51] coming from a non-ubuntu background, i must admit that i wasn't aware of this usage of 'flavor'. [20:51] mythbuntu still exists until 2019 or 2021 [20:51] I'd have to verify [20:51] AFAIK [20:51] previously, i had only heard it used in a sense to distinguish different families of distributions. [20:52] <\9> mythbuntu appears to not have seen a 16.10 release [20:52] <\9> 16.04 seems to be last [20:52] the perils of noun overloading :P [20:52] \9: tgm4883 works on it :) [20:52] \9: mythbuntu hasn't done non-LTS releases since 14.04 [20:52] or possibly 12.04 [20:52] I'd have to look back [20:52] regardless, thanks for the clarification, and apologies for the pedantry. [20:52] hehe [20:52] np [20:52] fun times [20:52] in my experience, the devil is in the details :P [20:52] sorry for being grouchy [20:53] <\9> ah right [20:53] popey: blame the mate guys for being grouchy, that's what I do ;) [20:53] <\9> it indeed hasn't [20:56] tgm4883: did you get any better performance out of the amd driver thingy? [20:56] ducasse! [20:56] \o [20:57] ducasse: not really, but kinda. I'm getting worse performance in Dying Light, but I'm getting decent performance when I run through benchmarks [20:57] I've reverted back to mesa 12 and tried AMDGPU and AMDGPU-PRO [20:58] and by worse performance, I've turned all the graphics settings all the way down and I'm getting about 25FPS [20:59] odd. did you try the amd forums? [21:01] Not yet, I finished setting up GPU passthrough on my old card and was looking for someone else with DL to test [21:02] right. i don't really do gaming anymore, i'm afraid. personally i think amd retired fglrx a bit too early... [21:04] a lot of the people with amd cards who come into #ubuntu report they had decent performance with fglrx, now they get bad performance or only radeon works at all... [21:07] Yea, unfortunately, I don't think this card was ever supported on fglrx [21:09] no, but it might have been easier to add that support and get good performance than start from scratch with amdgpu. but they might not have had resources to do both, i guess. [21:12] ducasse: yea I see what you're saying, there should have been a transition period [21:14] i think that would have been better for users, but linux users are probably such a small part of their customer base there are strict limits on resources for driver development. [21:31] Bashing-om: i was actually considering gentoo and compiling everything, but thought that would be too time-consuming. this machine is a 4ghz i7 with 32gb ram and all ssd's, but still... [21:32] "it might have been easier to add that support and get good performance than start from scratch with amdgpu" => fglrx was an absolute mess from both a user and developer side, it would not have been easier [21:33] "linux users are probably such a small part of their customer base there are strict limits on resources for driver development" => i track git HEAD on the repository they're doing amdgpu development in. they're doing quite a lot of excellent work on it [21:34] ducasse: One thing for sure, with specs like that, conserving resources is not a high priority ( trash-80 !) - lots of elbow room . [21:34] I have an AMD RX480. With DAL enabled, I get equivalent performance to Windows. [21:34] and that's on amdgpu, not amdgpu-pro [21:34] the main blocker right now is getting DAL into mainline Linux, which is proving to be rather Fun [21:34] dal? [21:35] Display Abstraction Layer. It's used for HDMI audio on Polaris, HDMI 2.0 in general, and future GPU compat in general. [21:36] ic, thanks. [21:37] but yeah, #radeon on freenode, amd-gfx@ on the FDO listserver, and https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~agd5f/linux/ for actual code [21:37] dax: 16.10? [21:37] tgm4883: no, gentoo for this. significantly easier to get mesa and friends to the latest version [21:38] probably doable on ubuntu though, i didn't look too hard [21:38] ah [21:38] dax: there's a PPA someone has with mesa 13, but it didn't provide much better results for me [21:38] so I'm probably missing something [21:39] probably kernel from that git link above, if you have the rest of the stack up to date [21:39] as far as I can tell all the DAL work is on amd-staging-4.7 right now, which is a bit unfortunately not-new, but i need HDMI audio so [21:40] dax: ah probably, i was just running the 4.8 kernel in 16.10 [21:41] yeah, none of DAL is in mainline yet [21:42] which annoys me to no end, but it's a whole heap of code so i'm not really surprised [21:46] Bashing-om: no, not really. i might still try gentoo on this machine, it has a spare ssd for things like that. [21:47] Bashing-om: i better get some sleep, you keep up the good work! [21:51] ducasse: K; Thanks, sleep well . instead of 'sugar-plums' dancing through the head .,. well it be OSs :) [21:51] Bashing-om: i'll be counting distros to get to sleep :) [21:52] har !