[08:20] <ducasse> hi all
[08:30] <daftykins> good morning \o
[08:31] <ducasse> hiya daftykins - how are you today?
[08:31] <ducasse> "where do you want to go today?"
[08:31] <daftykins> Microsoft :O
[08:32] <daftykins> not bad here thanks, i watched 'The BFG' earlier - it was great :D
[08:32] <daftykins> most British folk of my gen grew up reading Roald Dahl novels :>
[08:32] <daftykins> how be thee?
[08:32] <ducasse> saw that at the cinema with my nephew - he loved it :)
[08:33] <ducasse> i grew up reading roald dahl myself. i'm fine, thanks, drinking tea and taking it easy.
[08:33] <daftykins> \o/
[08:33] <daftykins> buttered scones and coffee here :D
[08:35] <ducasse> sounds good :) plans for the day?
[08:36] <daftykins> i've been looking up options for wall mounting that expensive new TV, plus dealing with the old
[08:36] <daftykins> so may pop up there later
[08:37] <ducasse> ah, how big is the new one?
[08:37] <daftykins> 65" using a 300x200 VESA mount - whilst the current one uses some annoying Pioneer own bracket
[08:39] <ducasse> nice. i wish all tv's/monitors could use vesa mounts...
[08:39] <daftykins> even when they do, they keep changing size XD
[08:40] <daftykins> oh i need to return some shoes to amazon too, as they sent me the wrong ones
[08:41] <ducasse> i'm going to look online for a wider desk, kind of want a third screen.
[08:43] <daftykins> :D
[08:44] <ducasse> someime today i'm also going to decide whether or not to buy that receiver, need to check a few other options first.
[08:45] <daftykins> ah exciting times!
[08:46] <daftykins> i wonder if it's worth me popping in a shop or two to look at deals going on
[08:46] <daftykins> not really anything i want right now though :)
[08:46] <ducasse> there's always stuff i _want_, but little i actually _need_...
[08:47] <daftykins> :D
[08:50] <ducasse> seems like there's still deals going on here, just after a brief look online...
[08:51] <daftykins> ah har
[08:51] <daftykins> yeah cyber monday now ;)
[08:55] <ducasse> aha, ic. can't find anything very interesting, though.
[08:57] <daftykins> seems to be a 5 bluray for £30 deal going on
[08:59] <daftykins> not really my scene...
[09:00] <ducasse> me neither. found an ok'ish tv, but the one i have is still functional.
[09:01] <ducasse> besides, i don't need uhd.
[09:01] <daftykins> you have to spend a fair chunk to get a 10-bit panel in one, the budget ones use an 8-bit so HDR is going to suffer
[09:01] <daftykins> i was tempted but yeah, maybe in the new year - or later still
[09:01] <daftykins> CES is January so maybe 2017 models will reinvent the wheel ;)
[09:02] <ducasse> :) did you see the zen naming style?
[09:03] <daftykins> ooh no as in AMD CPUs have been announced?
[09:03] <ducasse> sr3, sr5, sr7. wonder where they got that idea.
[09:03] <daftykins> wowzer
[09:05] <daftykins> hmm January 17th rumour too
[09:06] <ducasse> i really hope zen will be good, but i'm not holding my breath. they can't keep this up forever.
[09:07] <daftykins> indeed
[09:07] <ducasse> how long has it been since they made something decent? 7-8-9 years or so?
[09:08] <daftykins> especially after all the talk about the RX 480 and it ended up being yawn
[09:09] <ducasse> i hear people complaining about the performance of their latest gpu models all the time, but i'm not familiar with them.
[09:09] <daftykins> hmm can't imagine what that's about
[09:09] <daftykins> my nvidia 1070 is lovely :D
[09:10] <ducasse> i can imagine :)
[09:10] <ducasse> how many outputs does it have?
[09:10] <daftykins> now it's winter i don't even think the fans spin under game load
[09:11] <daftykins> 3 x DP, 1 x HDMI and 1 x DVI
[09:11] <ducasse> wow. can it use all at once?
[09:14] <daftykins> 4 at once apparently
[09:14] <ducasse> still good, most are limited to 3.
[09:15] <daftykins> yeah although there's displayport daisy chaining
[09:15] <daftykins> only seems to be on premium displays though
[09:18] <ducasse> i've noticed, you need to spend a little to get that.
[09:18] <daftykins> my ol' 1920x1200 displays will keep going for ages probably :) even have DP input
[09:20] <daftykins> haven't even used the office in a bit since i brought the PC downstairs to try out on the TV
[09:20] <daftykins> oof 20 past already, i best go do something :D
[09:20] <ducasse> ok, have a nice day!
[09:20] <ducasse> ttyl
[09:21] <daftykins> and you :) \o
[09:21] <daftykins> p.s. http://go.linuxfoundation.org/cyber-monday-2016 hmm
[09:22] <ducasse> hmm...
[11:54] <OerHeks> not bad pricing ..
[11:56] <ducasse> not at all... AND you get a t-shirt! :D
[11:56] <OerHeks> ... yay
[13:27] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[13:28] <ducasse> hi, how are you BluesKaj?
[13:35] <BluesKaj> hi ducasse, ok here, and you?
[13:36] <ducasse> good thanks, playing with arch in a chroot. the installation is *ridiculously* labor-intensive...
[13:44] <BluesKaj> yup, installed arch as few yrs ago, but I was disappointed in the OS , it was pretty ordinary for all the work needed to install, anticlimactic comes to mind
[13:54] <ducasse> hehe :) i'm just trying it out in search of something for my desktop, and it's a more attractive proposition than gentoo for example.
[13:55] <ducasse> in the end i'll probably stick to ubuntu, but it's interesting to look at how other distros do things from time to time.
[14:06] <BluesKaj> I'm thinking about sparky linux for fun, seems like an interesting OS with the Deepin desktop
[14:08] <BluesKaj> I'm not a gnome/unity or even mate fan and I'm tired of the restrictions plasma5 has put on KDE...I'd like to explore something new
[14:09] <BluesKaj> I'll stick with yakkety as my main OS of course
[14:12] <ducasse> i really wish there were as meny things available through ppas as through the aur, there's a lot of stuff i need to build myself now. that's mainly the reason i'm looking at arch for the desktop.
[20:23] <ducasse> Bashing-om: hiya Bashing-om - good morning to you :)
[20:24] <Bashing-om> ducasse: And A fine day it is .. Hope your's goes as well .
[20:26] <ducasse> Bashing-om: yup, been playing with arch today, setting it up on my desktop as a test. need to play with new toys now and then :)
[20:29] <Bashing-om> ducasse: welp, will get a new perspective on things, huh .. Change can be good . Nawwww .. I am old and set in my ways . I *like* it steady; LOL
[20:31] <ducasse> Bashing-om: for 99.999% of things i use computers for, i want something that's quick to get going and just works™ - ubuntu is great for that. for this machine, though, i need a lot of personal customization etc, so it's worth a look. worst case, i drop it but have learned something new.
[20:34] <Bashing-om> Well. You know my takes on fast and easy . I am fortunate in my needs that thus far the software repo meets all .
[20:37] <ducasse> me too, so i might end up just compiling the rest in a container on ubuntu or somthing, right now i'm really just evaluating options. as i said, at least i will learn something :)
[20:37] <ducasse> btw; bought the humble bundle unix books bundle today, lots of goodies there.
[20:40] <NoImNotNineVolt> i was merely saying that "supported flavors are those flavors which are supported" is circular reasoning.
[20:40] <NoImNotNineVolt> the reason i said this is because the class "Supported flavors" is defined in terms of itself.
[20:42] <tgm4883> NoImNotNineVolt: Yea I suppose that would be circular, but where does it say that?
[20:42] <tgm4883> !ubuntu
[20:42] <ubot5`> Ubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system, freely available with both community and professional support. It is developed by a large community and we invite you to participate too! - Also see http://www.ubuntu.com
[20:42] <tgm4883> !flavors
[20:42] <ubot5`> Recognized Ubuntu flavors build on Ubuntu and provide a different user experience out of the box. They are supported both in #ubuntu and in their flavor channel. The current list is: !Edubuntu, !Ubuntu-GNOME, !Kubuntu, Ubuntu !Kylin, !Lubuntu, !Mythbuntu, Ubuntu !Studio, !Xubuntu, and Ubuntu !MATE
[20:42] <popey> There's no circular logic there. It just lists what's supported
[20:42] <tgm4883> NoImNotNineVolt: unless someone else said that, I don't see what you quoted anywhere
[20:43] <NoImNotNineVolt> 20:34 < NoImNotNineVolt> so then it's not accurate that only ubuntu is  supported here?
[20:43] <NoImNotNineVolt> 20:34 < nicomachus> NoImNotNineVolt: ubuntu and supported flavors.
[20:43] <popey> I think you're being needlessly nit-picky
[20:43] <tgm4883> wow
[20:43] <tgm4883> popey: +1
[20:43] <NoImNotNineVolt> to rephrase with context, nicomachus was claiming that the supported flavors of ubuntu are "supported flavors".
[20:43] <popey> they probably meant "valid flavours"
[20:44] <popey> this is quite possibly the best waste of time discussion I've had today. Congratulations.
[20:44] <tgm4883> NoImNotNineVolt: also, that's out of context
[20:44] <popey> (not everyone has En-US or En-GB as their first language)
[20:44] <NoImNotNineVolt> perhaps i'm mistaken, then.
[20:44] <NoImNotNineVolt> indeed, english isn't my first language either.
[20:45] <tgm4883> Since the previous thing that nicomachus said was the query for ubottu to state the suported flavors
[20:45] <popey> technicall you could use "supported flavours" in two ways
[20:45] <popey> 1) supported in #ubuntu (the context the bot used)
[20:45] <popey> 2) supported by canonical (in that they are official flavours)
[20:46] <NoImNotNineVolt> i wasn't aware of any distinction there.
[20:46] <NoImNotNineVolt> is there one?
[20:46] <popey> so saying "ubuntu and supported flavours (definition 2) are supported (definition 1) in #ubuntu" :)
[20:46] <popey> sure
[20:46] <popey> mint is not a supported flavour
[20:46] <popey> nor elementary
[20:46] <NoImNotNineVolt> by the channel or by canonical?
[20:46] <popey> but Ubuntu MATE and Kubuntu are, because they're built using software from the Ubuntu archive only.
[20:47] <popey> by both
[20:47] <popey> one begats the other
[20:47] <NoImNotNineVolt> ...
[20:47] <NoImNotNineVolt> let me rephrase my question.
[20:47] <tgm4883> to rephrase what nicomachus said, "The supported flavors are ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu <lists all>" NoImNotNineVolt: 'So then not only Ubuntu is supported here'  nicomachus "Ubuntu and supported flavors are supported here".    It seems obvious that the previous list of supported flavors doesn't need repeating a second time in < 5 minutes
[20:47] <popey> mine is not supported by canonical, and thus is not supported by #ubuntu
[20:47] <popey> *mint
[20:47] <NoImNotNineVolt> i wasn't aware of any distinction between the two classes you noted. are their elements that belong to one set and not the other?
[20:47] <Bashing-om> ducasse: Now If I were real die-hard and really wanted it fast(er) .. there is LFS . Nothing can replace a made-from-scratch, compile-your-own kernel .
[20:47] <NoImNotNineVolt> (note: things which belong to neither set do not satisfy the requirements stated)
[20:47] <popey> no
[20:47] <popey> however
[20:48] <NoImNotNineVolt> so there is no practical distinction?
[20:48] <popey> there are flavours which aren't _well_ supported
[20:48] <popey> (in #ubuntu)
[20:48] <NoImNotNineVolt> fair enough.
[20:48] <popey> so we throw users at flavour specific channels
[20:48] <popey> e.g. kubuntu, ubuntu server
[20:48] <NoImNotNineVolt> also, while i'm here, i'd say that "derivative distribution" is a generally more precise than "flavor"
[20:48] <popey> No
[20:48] <popey> Incorrect
[20:48] <tgm4883> popey: well if that's the definition, there is a 3rd level of 'supported'
[20:48] <popey> Flavour is a very specific term
[20:48] <popey> Derivative distro is another specific term
[20:48] <NoImNotNineVolt> indeed, maybe that's where i'm getting confused.
[20:48] <popey> they have different meanings
[20:49] <tgm4883> 3) supported by canonical, via a support contract (ubuntu advantage)
[20:49] <\9> derivative distro is something that's based on ubuntu
[20:49] <\9> not necessarily supported
[20:49] <popey> exactly, like mint or elementary
[20:49] <NoImNotNineVolt> are flavors necessarily supported?
[20:49] <popey> flavour = built from the archive
[20:49] <popey> derivative = might not be
[20:49] <popey> !flavor
[20:49] <ubot5`> Recognized Ubuntu flavors build on Ubuntu and provide a different user experience out of the box. They are supported both in #ubuntu and in their flavor channel. The current list is: !Edubuntu, !Ubuntu-GNOME, !Kubuntu, Ubuntu !Kylin, !Lubuntu, !Mythbuntu, Ubuntu !Studio, !Xubuntu, and Ubuntu !MATE
[20:49] <tgm4883> flavors are supported in #ubuntu
[20:49] <tgm4883> and their own channels too
[20:50] <NoImNotNineVolt> so an 'unsupported flavor' is inherently contradictory?
[20:50] <popey> yes
[20:50] <popey> there is no such thing
[20:50] <\9> well you could build your own flavor.. that's not going to be supported
[20:50] <popey> no
[20:50] <\9> and wasn't mythbuntu dropped?
[20:50] <popey> you could build a remix
[20:50] <tgm4883> \9: no you can't
[20:50] <popey> or a derivative
[20:50] <popey> but it wouldn't be a flavour until blessed by the tech board
[20:50] <\9> ah right
[20:50] <\9> so it'll be a derivative even though it only uses the ubuntu core
[20:50] <tgm4883> flavor means it was blessed by tech board and built on canonical hardware
[20:51] <popey> yes
[20:51] <NoImNotNineVolt> coming from a non-ubuntu background, i must admit that i wasn't aware of this usage of 'flavor'.
[20:51] <tgm4883> mythbuntu still exists until 2019 or 2021
[20:51] <tgm4883> I'd have to verify
[20:51] <tgm4883> AFAIK
[20:51] <NoImNotNineVolt> previously, i had only heard it used in a sense to distinguish different families of distributions.
[20:52] <\9> mythbuntu appears to not have seen a 16.10 release
[20:52] <\9> 16.04 seems to be last
[20:52] <NoImNotNineVolt> the perils of noun overloading :P
[20:52] <popey> \9: tgm4883 works on it :)
[20:52] <tgm4883> \9: mythbuntu hasn't done non-LTS releases since 14.04
[20:52] <tgm4883> or possibly 12.04
[20:52] <tgm4883> I'd have to look back
[20:52] <NoImNotNineVolt> regardless, thanks for the clarification, and apologies for the pedantry.
[20:52] <popey> hehe
[20:52] <popey> np
[20:52] <popey> fun times
[20:52] <NoImNotNineVolt> in my experience, the devil is in the details :P
[20:52] <popey> sorry for being grouchy
[20:53] <\9> ah right
[20:53] <tgm4883> popey: blame the mate guys for being grouchy, that's what I do ;)
[20:53] <\9> it indeed hasn't
[20:56] <ducasse> tgm4883: did you get any better performance out of the amd driver thingy?
[20:56] <tgm4883> ducasse!
[20:56] <ducasse> \o
[20:57] <tgm4883> ducasse: not really, but kinda. I'm getting worse performance in Dying Light, but I'm getting decent performance when I run through benchmarks
[20:57] <tgm4883> I've reverted back to mesa 12 and tried AMDGPU and AMDGPU-PRO
[20:58] <tgm4883> and by worse performance, I've turned all the graphics settings all the way down and I'm getting about 25FPS
[20:59] <ducasse> odd. did you try the amd forums?
[21:01] <tgm4883> Not yet, I finished setting up GPU passthrough on my old card and was looking for someone else with DL to test
[21:02] <ducasse> right. i don't really do gaming anymore, i'm afraid. personally i think amd retired fglrx a bit too early...
[21:04] <ducasse> a lot of the people with amd cards who come into #ubuntu report they had decent performance with fglrx, now they get bad performance or only radeon works at all...
[21:07] <tgm4883> Yea, unfortunately, I don't think this card was ever supported on fglrx
[21:09] <ducasse> no, but it might have been easier to add that support and get good performance than start from scratch with amdgpu. but they might not have had resources to do both, i guess.
[21:12] <tgm4883> ducasse: yea I see what you're saying, there should have been a transition period
[21:14] <ducasse> i think that would have been better for users, but linux users are probably such a small part of their customer base there are strict limits on resources for driver development.
[21:31] <ducasse> Bashing-om: i was actually considering gentoo and compiling everything, but thought that would be too time-consuming. this machine is a 4ghz i7 with 32gb ram and all ssd's, but still...
[21:32] <dax> "it might have been easier to add that support and get good performance than start from scratch with amdgpu" => fglrx was an absolute mess from both a user and developer side, it would not have been easier
[21:33] <dax> "linux users are probably such a small part of their customer base there are strict limits on resources for driver development" => i track git HEAD on the repository they're doing amdgpu development in. they're doing quite a lot of excellent work on it
[21:34] <Bashing-om> ducasse: One thing for sure, with specs like that,  conserving resources is not a high priority ( trash-80 !) - lots of elbow room .
[21:34] <dax> I have an AMD RX480. With DAL enabled, I get equivalent performance to Windows.
[21:34] <dax> and that's on amdgpu, not amdgpu-pro
[21:34] <dax> the main blocker right now is getting DAL into mainline Linux, which is proving to be rather Fun
[21:34] <ducasse> dal?
[21:35] <dax> Display Abstraction Layer. It's used for HDMI audio on Polaris, HDMI 2.0 in general, and future GPU compat in general.
[21:36] <ducasse> ic, thanks.
[21:37] <dax> but yeah, #radeon on freenode, amd-gfx@ on the FDO listserver, and https://cgit.freedesktop.org/~agd5f/linux/ for actual code
[21:37] <tgm4883> dax: 16.10?
[21:37] <dax> tgm4883: no, gentoo for this. significantly easier to get mesa and friends to the latest version
[21:38] <dax> probably doable on ubuntu though, i didn't look too hard
[21:38] <tgm4883> ah
[21:38] <tgm4883> dax: there's a PPA someone has with mesa 13, but it didn't provide much better results for me
[21:38] <tgm4883> so I'm probably missing something
[21:39] <dax> probably kernel from that git link above, if you have the rest of the stack up to date
[21:39] <dax> as far as I can tell all the DAL work is on amd-staging-4.7 right now, which is a bit unfortunately not-new, but i need HDMI audio so
[21:40] <tgm4883> dax: ah probably, i was just running the 4.8 kernel in 16.10
[21:41] <dax> yeah, none of DAL is in mainline yet
[21:42] <dax> which annoys me to no end, but it's a whole heap of code so i'm not really surprised
[21:46] <ducasse> Bashing-om: no, not really. i might still try gentoo on this machine, it has a spare ssd for things like that.
[21:47] <ducasse> Bashing-om: i better get some sleep, you keep up the good work!
[21:51] <Bashing-om> ducasse: K; Thanks, sleep well . instead of 'sugar-plums' dancing through the head .,. well it be OSs :)
[21:51] <ducasse> Bashing-om: i'll be counting distros to get to sleep :)
[21:52] <Bashing-om> har !