snapfrac1anyone know if cpu frequency scaling is an os setting, or solely bios/firmware setting? I've heard mixed things..12:18
trebmuhsnapfrac1, os setting13:18
trebmuhsee http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/system_configuration#cpu_frequency_scaling13:19
snapfrac1trebmuh: thanks!13:19
snapfrac1I heard it can cause xruns..13:19
trebmuhthen, you just heard half of the logic13:21
snapfrac1trebmuh: what do you mean by "half of the logic?"14:04
trebmuhyou misunderstood14:04
trebmuhthe other part of the logic is : "if everything is well set up, you do not have xrun"14:05
snapfrac1trebmuh: well, I did here that too, but that one of the culprits can be cpu freq scaling14:06
snapfrac1trebmuh: I'm on a chromebook with ubuntustudio.. not expecting much performance from this, especially since I have no external sound card. but I'd like to see what I can make this thing do14:09
=== Iota- is now known as kspencer
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: what cpu does a chromebook have?15:48
snapfrac1Intel Celeron 2955U (1.4GHz) (Haswell)15:49
OvenWerksdo you know if it has pstates or frequency stepping?15:50
OvenWerks( try ls /sys/devices/system/cpu/ )15:51
OvenWerkssee if one of the directories is intel_pstates15:56
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: one thing to be aware of with ubuntu and maybe debian too, is that default is to reset to ondemand/powersave 50 seconds after startup.16:00
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: none of the tutorials I know of tell you this or make up for it16:00
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: the best way to set ubuntustudio for performance is:16:01
OvenWerkssudo /usr/sbin/update-rc.d ondemand disable16:06
OvenWerksand then create a file  /etc/default/cpufrequtils with the line GOVERNOR="performance" in it.16:07
OvenWerks snapfrac1 doing it that way will not interfere with upgrades (or get reset by upgrades).16:08
snapfrac1OvenWerks: it does have intel_pstate (singular, though, not plural)16:29
OvenWerksI may have mistyped :P16:30
OvenWerksThat means you would have either performance or powersave16:30
OvenWerksbut the above directions should work either way16:31
snapfrac1OvenWerks: is there a way to turn off power saving just for a given session?16:31
OvenWerksAs in for only one user? or on and off at will?16:31
snapfrac1since, I might want to use the power saving stuff usually, and only turn it off for using audio stuff16:32
snapfrac1on / off at will..16:32
OvenWerksI am working on a utility to do that, but have not got it finished. There are some out there already though.16:33
snapfrac1OvenWerks: cool!16:34
snapfrac1need any help?16:34
OvenWerksthe way most do it is with a piece of code that looks like:16:34
snapfrac1got it on github?16:34
OvenWerksno it is https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-controls/trunk16:36
OvenWerksthere is a version in the https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild ppa16:36
OvenWerksbut it is not anywhere near there any more.16:37
OvenWerksThat model relies on the whole thing being run pkexec16:37
OvenWerksThat works fine for what is there, but we want to control audio setup too which is all userspace/current session16:38
OvenWerksso the GUI actually has to run userspace and call pkexec to set things16:39
OvenWerksI am in the middle of changing over to do that.16:39
OvenWerksThe ppa version has a lot of stuff in the gui that does nothing right now, but setting performance does work.16:40
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: ^^^16:40
snapfrac1OvenWerks: that sounds cool! some of this is over my head.. I don't know what pkexec is, for example. does it involve suid bit?16:40
OvenWerksit is what ubuntu/debian uses instead of sudo.16:40
OvenWerksit is quite flexable as it can run a specific executable with or without a password or allow gui access or not.16:42
OvenWerksit is part of policy kit16:43
OvenWerks-controls is written in python with gtk3 for the GUI (gui is made with glade)16:44
snapfrac1all this time I've been using sudo..16:44
OvenWerkssudo is great for cli stuff16:44
snapfrac1ah, pkexec is for gui?16:44
OvenWerkspkexec is better for stuff that is embedded into another program/script16:45
snapfrac1is it like gtksudo?16:45
snapfrac1or whatever that used to be called?16:45
OvenWerkssomewhat yes.16:45
snapfrac1I remember using that a long time ago.. not sure if it's "defunct" now, but I haven't used it in years16:45
OvenWerksin general it is bad to run the GUI with root access, it is better to run the GUI as user and then just do what needs to be done in root as root.16:46
snapfrac1OvenWerks: yeah, that makes sense from a security stand-point16:47
snapfrac1principle of least authority and everything16:47
OvenWerksSo for controls, there will be two executables, userside and systemn side16:47
OvenWerksuserside will run the system side stuff with pkexec and predefined commands.16:48
OvenWerksthat is the system side code will not accept text or environmetal parameters as input.16:49
OvenWerkssynaptic still runs the gui as root...16:50
snapfrac1I use aptitude on command line usually ..16:50
OvenWerksthe current version of ubuntustudio-controls does too, but that will change with the next version16:50
OvenWerksanything but "software" or USC16:51
OvenWerksI think the only reason Studio ships Software is that it is in the base SW setup.16:52
snapfrac1what do you mean?16:52
OvenWerksSOftware does not tell you if it has to remove sw to install other sw16:52
snapfrac1you're talking about software center?16:53
OvenWerksyes, in the menu it is just called "Software"16:54
OvenWerksthe ubuntu software center is gone16:54
snapfrac1ah. haha I never use that.. I like aptitude because it's clear what's going on with the dependencies16:54
snapfrac1also, it remembers what I manually selected, vs what was installed to satisfy deps16:54
snapfrac1(so if I remove something, I can also remove the stuff I don't need anymore along with it)16:55
OvenWerksinstalling jackd1 removes almost all of the audio software which depends on jackd216:55
snapfrac1I have always checked in on "ubuntustudio-controls" but never really found too much in there.. just the realtime setting, and the audio group16:56
snapfrac1I rememember once uninstalling something that caused my entire linux system to try to uninstall16:56
snapfrac1what a pain in the ass that was16:57
snapfrac1rookie mistake16:57
OvenWerksYeah, -controls has needed some love for a while16:57
snapfrac1that prompted me to learn more about dependencies.. and why removing one little thing can "bring everything tumbling down"16:58
snapfrac1although, obviously, I could have just removed it and had broken deps16:58
OvenWerkswhen building a jack application you need the includes so many people just install libjack-dev which removes jackd2 :P16:58
snapfrac1is there a libjack2-dev?16:58
OvenWerksNot knowing that they need libjack-jackd2-dev16:59
OvenWerksreally, libjack-dev should be for the standard jackd which is 2 and then there should be a libjack-jackd1-dev16:59
OvenWerks... and beyond that in this case just break policy and include the includes with the jackd packages.17:00
snapfrac1guess it's too late for that now..17:00
* OvenWerks is waiting for jackd317:01
OvenWerksnow that jackd1 and jackd2 are being maintained by the same person, maybe there will be something that replaces both of them... or maybe not.17:02
OvenWerksjackd1 has a very strong following still. Many people consider jackd2 to be a fork rather than the next version17:03
snapfrac1OvenWerks: is it not backward compatible?17:04
OvenWerksThe lib API is compatible17:04
OvenWerksAn application written with jackd1 with work with jackd2 and an app wirtten for jackd2 will work with jackd117:05
snapfrac1OvenWerks: I wonder why people don't transition then..17:06
OvenWerkslike I say, the best thing would be a version three that includes the best of both. But even then I think there are some people who would still use jackd117:07
OvenWerksThere are still some people writing ladspa plugins instead of LV2 for the same reasons17:08
OvenWerksThen there are some applications like Ardour that will now run without jack at all.17:09
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: in some ways jackd1 is actually ahead of jackd2. I think the best way forward would be to take jackd1, add just a few things from jackd2 like dbus control for example and continue that as jackd3. I think that would satisfy the most people17:12
OvenWerksThe main upside of jackd2 originally was that it has SMP use. That is it is multithread and can do things on more than one CPU. That is it works with more than one core.17:13
OvenWerksAs it turns out though, most of the main processing still has to be done all in one thread anyway. So all that got done on other cores was minor control stuff.17:15
snapfrac1OvenWerks: I always wondered about that17:15
snapfrac1so much has to happen in one core because there is one stream of samples?17:16
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: ^ might explain better17:16
snapfrac1I hadn't realised that Ardour doesn't require jack17:16
OvenWerksthe audio card interupts when it's buffer if full and every jack client has to deal with that audio before the next interrupt.17:17
snapfrac1I always used it with jack assuming I had to17:17
OvenWerksArdour does not need jack as of version 5.017:17
snapfrac1ok, I'm still on 417:17
OvenWerksUsing Ardour with jack has advatages still.17:17
snapfrac1I haven't followed it in a while, but I know they had a milestone with midi sequencing support17:18
OvenWerksIt does mean that a second audio device can be added with zita-ajbridge for example.17:18
snapfrac1but that was ages ago now..17:18
snapfrac1OvenWerks: well, one advantage would be connecting to all the other jack-only programs17:19
OvenWerksArdour is at 5.5 now and there have been many changes. The GUI has changed, control surfaces (where I play) has changed... lots of MIDI upgrades, some plugins are now included.17:19
OvenWerksright, using external jack applications is possible.17:20
snapfrac1OvenWerks: that sounds cool.. I wonder if it's worth getting the latest..17:20
OvenWerksArdour now officially supports OSx/windows17:20
snapfrac1first I have to get my xruns reduced.. remember, I'm on the chromebook.. haha17:20
snapfrac1only 2Gb ram too..17:20
snapfrac1but it does have ssd.. so there's that17:21
snapfrac1no heavy bass making my hdd heads jump17:21
OvenWerksI ran Studio on an Atom based netbook with 1G of ram down as low as jackd set to 64/2 with no xruns. so it is possible.17:21
snapfrac1OvenWerks: that's impressive17:22
OvenWerksI had to unload the kernel module for my wifi to get it working.17:22
snapfrac1I think I can get it set up, I just have to learn the tricks.. like the cpu freq thing17:22
snapfrac1OvenWerks: I do fear that I must lose networking to get it as good as I really want17:23
OvenWerksI had to only plug my audio interface (USB) into one of the three USB ports17:23
OvenWerksThe other USB ports shared an IRQ with something else17:23
snapfrac1OvenWerks: I'm working with onboard audio.. not great17:24
snapfrac1I used to have a presonus firebox, but it stopped working.17:24
snapfrac1it was firewire anyway, and this machine doesn't have a port17:24
OvenWerksonboard intel audio I could only get down to 64/3 or 128/2 jack would just crash if I tried lower.17:25
snapfrac1OvenWerks: that'd be fine for my purposes, at the moment17:25
snapfrac1I was getting xruns at much larger buffer sizes17:25
OvenWerksPCs are not designed for low latency audio... low latency to an Intel engineer is 30ms17:25
OvenWerks(skype expects 30ms latency for example)17:26
snapfrac1OvenWerks: well.. network will never get lower than that anyway.. if it's routed globally17:26
snapfrac1speed of light and all..17:26
OvenWerksI find that my playing suffers if I put a long cable on my bass and move 30 feet from the band.17:27
OvenWerksThat is only 20ms-ish17:27
snapfrac1every few feet is like 5ms, or something like that, right?17:27
OvenWerksSOmething like that. When using the PC as a guitar effect, I find 256/2 is noticable delay, 128/2 is ok.17:28
snapfrac1I never understood the implications of the 64/3 vs 128/2 numbers.. for example, would 64/4 be the same as 128/2 in latency?17:29
OvenWerksThe audio interface adds delay too, my delta66 (PCI card) adds 1ms each way, but I can run it at 16/2, my USB says .6ms delay17:29
snapfrac1and if so, what is different then?17:30
OvenWerksyes 64/4 is the same as 128/217:30
OvenWerks64/4 might be slightly more stable, the card store 4 buffers and the computer deals with 1 at a time.17:31
snapfrac1what sample rate do you usually use?17:32
OvenWerks*/3 works better for some things that are time based like USB which works in 1ms timings. 16/3 is 1 ms at 48000 sample rate17:32
OvenWerksso at 48000 */3 means the buffers are sort of in sync with USB transfers17:33
OvenWerksgoing higher than 3 is probably not worthwile17:33
OvenWerksBTW 3 buffers is also recomended with AES67 and AVB for similar reasons17:34
OvenWerks(even though there are not really drivers for either yet)17:34
OvenWerksI use 48k for everything. The Intel audio interfaces are 48k internally whatever the actual rate is being used. 48k is most often what the analog circuitry in the audio card is designed for17:35
OvenWerks48k is the standard (CDs are actually non-stanard)17:36
snapfrac1what are CDs? 41K? or 96K?17:36
OvenWerksanything above 48k is wasted disk space and cpu overhead17:36
OvenWerksCDs are 44.1k17:36
snapfrac1I should try jack with 48K.. I was experimenting with settings because I wanted to see how the system responded17:37
OvenWerksboth 44.1k and 48k already have more information than your ear can hear. But the filter slope from 20k to 24k is easier for 48k17:38
snapfrac1the funny thing is, petri-foo was playing the samples in a preview all distorted based on jackd settings, because the preview didn't have the resample clicked17:39
snapfrac1OvenWerks: I suppose if you were recording something at 96k and wanted to slow it down, you could benefit from the extra sample density.. but I can't think of too many other scenarios17:41
snapfrac1and that scenario is not something I'm likely to encounter any time soon anyway17:41
OvenWerksA really good intro to digital audio are these two videos: https://www.xiph.org/video/17:41
snapfrac1maybe one day when I get a really expensive mic17:42
OvenWerks96k gives you nothing.17:42
snapfrac1I'll be sure to check those out17:42
OvenWerkssee I think the second video on the site above17:42
snapfrac1wait.. what about if you're slowing the sounds down though?17:43
OvenWerksHe takes audio in and compares input to output on analog equipment.17:43
OvenWerksmost Mics only go up to about 18k... if they are good, 15k or below are common.17:44
snapfrac1OvenWerks: ah, so the mic is the weakest link anyway17:44
snapfrac1I didn't know that17:44
OvenWerksSome audio effects upsample do the effect and then downsample. That is worth while, some filters do that.17:45
snapfrac1I had wrongly assumed mics could recored at higher sample rates17:45
OvenWerksBut the input and output are still base rate.17:45
OvenWerksIt is possible to get mics that can deal with higher frequencies. these are used by people listening to bats etc. but those mics don't do well below 20k17:46
snapfrac1OvenWerks: but that sounds more like "fancy math" .. those effects wouldn't need the whole transport running at that rate, right?17:46
OvenWerksright, those effects do the math at a higher rate then use math to drop the rate17:47
OvenWerks(also common in distortion effects)17:48
* OvenWerks is not a DSP coder so most of this info is second hand17:49
snapfrac1well.. it is for me too, but I think I grasp the basics.. those samples are just numbers, and any effect has to "process" them, so I tend to think of it like a mathematical function17:50
snapfrac1I know some effects have lots of other stuff going on, and are not stateless.. but I get it for some of the ideas17:51
snapfrac1anyway.. good talking to you OvenWerks .. gotta get afk for a while17:54
snapfrac1I'll try what you suggested regarding the cpu freq stuff, see if I can get it down a bit in latency without the xruns17:54
snapfrac1and I'll definitely watch those videos17:54
l33hi and bye :)17:59
OvenWerkssnapfrac1: See you later18:02
redmountain_Ubuntu Studio 16.04.1, the window toolbar ( grey ) is so big, how to get rid of ?18:03
OvenWerksredmountain_: can you be more descriptive?18:14
redmountain_the top bar of the windows where you can max, min, close, is so high...I need the height for my app, on the 15" touchscreen18:16
OvenWerksredmountain_: maybe try a different theme. there are more than one place to look.18:17
OvenWerkssettings->window manager->style would be the first place I would try.18:17
OvenWerksI use Moheli, but like to be able to find my window corners for resizing as I use many windows to a screen almost always.18:18
OvenWerksyou might try greybird-compact18:19
OvenWerkswe need a theme where the title bar is on the side of the window as the screens are getting shorter and wider18:20
redmountain_The problem is with autostart at boot with the app, it has the top bar and at the bottom it is cut off...18:20
redmountain_If I close start the app normally, no top bar and full size window like I need it18:21
OvenWerksright, that is because it is starting the application before the xfce menu bar is in place and then moves it down.18:21
redmountain_this didn't happen in Ubuntu Studio 12...18:22
redmountain_is there a way 'round that problem ?18:22
OvenWerkspossible, I think the xfce version has changed. You may wish to ask in #xubuntu. We pretty much use their desktop... plus there are some of the xfce devs hang around in there18:23
OvenWerksI personally don't know that much about DEs, just what I like and don't :)18:24
redmountain_thanks, trying over there18:24
redmountain_anyone heard of X32-Edit https://downloads.music-group.com/software/behringer/X32/X32-EDIT_LINUX_V.2.5.tar.gz19:16
redmountaingot deconnected...hmm20:17
OvenWerksredmountain: I downloaded it long time ago and the executable just runs... but I do not have an X32 to try it with. I have just played with it in local mode20:55
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