[12:21] <deadbit> What is the !appeal process?
[12:24] <chu> !appeal
[12:28] <deadbit> Ok. So i'd like to discuss the !ban I received.
[12:30] <chu> I'm listening, but I come into this only reading the logs from #ubuntu just prior to you being banned. And I don't disagree with the ban.
[12:30] <deadbit> I was trying to help a user by giving him direct examples of things to NOT run. I didn't not tell him how to run them, meaning where and how to place the commands. I stated since he's neophyte, he should be leery of other users telling him to run commands blindly.
[12:30] <deadbit> I was trying to help a user by giving him direct examples of things to NOT run. I didn't not tell him how to run them, meaning where and how to place the commands. I stated since he's neophyte, he should be leery of other users telling him to run commands blindly.
[12:30] <chu> You could have just left it at that - don't blindly run commands.
[12:31] <deadbit> well we all learn differently and think differently.
[12:31] <deadbit> I need the support from ubuntu. I have to support the product and there are somethings that are not covered in linux.
[12:31] <deadbit> it's silo knowledge only a ubuntu user would have access too. since the website itself states that this is the official support channel - i have no other way of getting access to the information.
[12:32] <deadbit> applicable knowledge is more precious than theoretical or book knowledge.
[12:34] <deadbit> chu I didn't state; hey run this command or here's a way to run this command you shouldn't run. i gave an example; so he could identify what i was talking about. i have never trolled or been banned in the channel before. it was under good faith - just trying to help. you could have just as equally said - please don't place dangerous commands in the thread even if you are trying to help or we will have to ban you.
[12:37] <deadbit> This is an isolate incident - I don't know what other people have done in this channel. Please don't group me with other people, I'm just trying to be helpful and also learn and ask questions. Now I know that you prefer those items to be left out of the thread and won't place them in the thread. All channels are different - #Linux didn't ban me for the same post. That's to say - each channel chooses to do things differently - I wasn't trolling
[12:37] <deadbit> or trying to cause a disruption.
[12:38] <deadbit> Will you please remove the ban.
[12:39] <chu> But that's my problem, in a sense. In a one-on-one conversation, your explanation was fine - "Look, there's a few commands which are pretty dangerous to run, inquisitive users might be inclined to run them: they are <fork bomb> and <rm>" but in a public channel, with potentially 1000+ inquisitive users.
[12:40] <deadbit> Understood. I understand where you are coming from - your point has been made.
[12:40] <deadbit> I am giving my word - I am a professional that needs access to the support.
[12:41] <deadbit> I'm not a child and these type of action although necessary on a case-by-case process is not warranted at such an extreme.
[12:42] <deadbit> Your point has been made, please allow me access to the channel. I feel belittled, and I feel like i'm groveling - is that what you want? It feels like this is a powertrip for you guys.
[12:48] <deadbit> So?
[12:48] <deadbit> That's it... no comment?
[12:51] <deadbit> chu, hello?
[12:54] <chu> To be honest, I am not convinced. I am not the operator who set the ban, and ultimately, if I'm not convinced I can't remove it. It just feels to me like you're saying you're only willing to play by the rules when convenient to you in a sense. As a professional, surely you saw problems with what you said? After all, as you alluded to, there have been plenty of others who have maliciously pasted the
[12:54] <chu> commands. I'm not grouping you in there necessarily; actually, when you first joined I checked the logs for you and was reading your case. Initially, I was on your side, because typically there's a policy of kick on first infraction, ban on second, etc. But as you jumped in so defensively, without admitting fault! it just raises my curiosity too much.
[12:55] <deadbit> Whatever man.
[12:56] <deadbit> It just feels like you guys enjoy this too much. Maybe your mad that I said it's powertrip. Maybe other users have stated it - I can definitely see where someone would say it because of how you respond.
[12:57] <chu> I feel you should know you can still access http://askubuntu.com/ https://ubuntuforums.org/ etc
[12:57] <deadbit> Since you can see the logs - you can see that I've never been banned. And I even gave info about going to ##Freenode for finding an appropriate channel.
[12:57] <deadbit> Of course I became infuriated. I was banned right off from a service i required.
[12:59] <deadbit> I never received a notice - like you said "...typically there's a policy of kick on first infraction, ban on second"
[13:00] <chu> That's the reason I initially supported you - it was your first infraction, from what I could see. But as I also said, just the way you have handled it has raised my curiosity enough to not want to make a judgement call.
[13:00] <deadbit> You guys didn't even follow your own policy.... there's never been a first infraction. And what curiosity? I will say - if you see everything as evil. Evil is the only thing you see.
[13:00] <deadbit> Of course I handled it that way - bazhang isn't the most popular op in freenode. And now I can see why!
[13:00] <deadbit> I was BANNED for being helpful!
[13:01] <deadbit> Chu - what if you were at a store and were trying to help someone by getting an item from the top shelf because the person can't reach it. Then you are arrested because you didn't contact a store employee for following company guidelines.
[13:01] <deadbit> Wouldn't you feel that is extreme?
[13:02] <chu> Well, you were banned for pasting a fork bomb and rm command. That's not being helpful.
[13:03] <chu> The fact that you justify it as you being helpful - you claimed you are a professional, and see no problem here? - just makes me question it even more.
[13:03] <deadbit> I'm asking you too look beyond, to see past the fork bomb. The motivation behind that was to be helpful. I'm sorry I don't think like you - I'm not an operator. I'm not seeing little script kiddies everyday that are trying to be disruptive. I'm just an individual that saw someone that could possibly run dangerous commands without knowing it.
[13:05] <deadbit> A forkbomb is dangerous of course! But a new user would want to know what it is.... i can show you the log of a user in #linux that asked that specifically. Why and what a fork bomb was and gave examples of another fork.
[13:05] <deadbit> People can't simply understand constructs and abstract from simply "reading" about them. THat's why in books and educational courses and even ubuntu site, examples are given.
[13:07] <deadbit> Also - you are looking at this situation as me being a dubious individual that tried to disrupt the channel by placing command in the thread and now I'm trying to subvert the issue.
[13:07] <chu> But you didn't explain what it was - you didn't even mention it as a fork bomb - you literally just said <deadbit> jyamihud: be careful of the commands they tell you to run like ":(){ :|: & };:", again. You could have phrased it differently if you had the intention you claim, because the way you did is not trying to explain anything, from what I can tell.
[13:08] <deadbit> I was banned immediately after that!
[13:08] <deadbit> How the hell do you want me to explain anything?
[13:08] <deadbit> Again, goes back to my analogy, helping the customer and being arrested and waiting to see the judge to explain what happened.
[13:09] <deadbit> the cop doesn't care - he's just doing his job, just like hte employee is just doing their job.
[13:09] <deadbit> everyone is "JUST" doing their jobs! it's like hte blind leading the blind.
[13:10] <deadbit> chu - seriously. people think DIFFERENTLY.
[13:11] <deadbit> maybe i'm going about this the wrong way - cause i do need access.
[13:11] <deadbit> chu - i think differently from you and bazhang. you think like operators - you have to be careful of people trying to be disruptive. i'm sorry that i don't think like you.
[13:12] <chu> I know this. In fact, you don't seem to be appreciating what I am trying to say, so I guess this is a perfect example of that. It goes back to what I previously said, that's a fine explanation in a one-on-one situation. But you're in a public forum with thousands of people. They may not be so inclined to wait for your next message where you explain the commands.
[13:12] <deadbit> i don't have your brain.
[13:12] <deadbit> chu - yes i understand that! and i said.... i won't place commands in the thread.
[13:13] <deadbit> i won't jeopardize my access to support because i'm trying to be helpful.
[13:13] <chu> Alright, you're breaking me. Now, I need to know that I can trust giving you my support won't come back and bite me.
[13:14] <deadbit> i'm an adult chu.
[13:14] <chu> Now, I'm assuming you've read the guidelines (as they are linked in the topic of #ubuntu ) but if not, here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines now they don't explicitly mention fork bombs, rm commands, whatever. But they shouldn't have to.
[13:15] <deadbit> which probably doesn't go far - i'm sure there are disruptive adults that need to prove "something" i'm not here to prove anything. i just need support.
[13:16] <deadbit> I appreciate where you are coming from chu. I see what you are saying to me. And you're right they don't explicitly describe forkbombs. had they - i wouldn't have placed it on the thread. I won't place any dangerous and disruptive things in the thread, even if my understanding of it - is to help.
[13:16] <deadbit> I wo'nt do anything to bring shame to your name. you won't lose face for antyhing i do.
[13:17] <deadbit> That is a promise.
[13:17] <chu> Try joining #ubuntu please
[13:18] <deadbit> Thank you.
[13:18] <deadbit> Just try seeing it my way chu. Not everyone thinks alike.
[13:18] <chu> Please don't make me regret the decision. And if you have finished in here, please part.
[13:18] <deadbit> And not all things are motivated by malicious intent.
[13:18] <deadbit> Thank you