brobostigonmorning boys and girls.10:02
SuperMattgood morning on this chilly saturday10:06
SuperMattToday is a day for writing a wordpress theme10:08
* penguin42 updates his Mum's machine from 12.0417:31
penguin42well it was working and still LTS so hey that's the point17:50
DJonespenguin42: Must admit, I've only recently upgraded my server from 12.04...as you say it still worked, was still LTS and supported...etc17:54
DJonesYay for 5 year LTS releases17:55
penguin42what has stopped working on that machine is h.264 playback through ff, firefox complains of an outdated libav; now I can't honestly remember whether the libav on there is a standard ubuntu one or not, but either way it means her machine can't watch our cctv, so I need to fix that so I may as well update first17:56
daftykinsoh yeah i suppose it was going to be good until this April17:59
daftykinsagreed on the sticking to what works as long as it's LTS, however i will absolutely slay anyone running EOL due to laziness (and do) :)18:00
penguin42the odd thing I had to remember was the trick on it to make the 1366x768 TV/monitor work on it18:09
daftykinsoh dear, another modeline / hardcoded EDID to combat useless VGA?18:09
penguin42nod, it's kind of annoying it isn't in distros18:10
penguin42I eventually found I'd added an xrandr command in her .profile18:10
daftykinsah har18:13
daftykinsi often go in and find folks have VGA where both their PC and monitor has a digital interconnect of whichever variety free, so i just order in a cable from amazon for say £5 and throw it on the bill18:14
daftykinsone client had been getting by with the wrong resolution due to VGA hassles, even on a Windows machine for so long that he thought his eyes were going bad18:15
daftykinsturned out it was just a super thin badly shielded cable but throwing HDMI in just made him say 'wow' :>18:15
penguin42daftykins: Oh that's not the problem; the problem is that 1366 is a weird resolution; it's not divisible by 818:15
daftykinsi know you've mentioned that before but _all_ 1366x768 monitors i've had exposure to work fine on Windows machines18:16
daftykinssure some rare ones say they're outputting at 1360 wide instead, but most are properly stating 136618:16
penguin42in this case I'm giving it a 1360x768 modeline18:17
daftykinsthis is why X.org can't die any sooner though, hand edits in 2017? just no18:18
penguin42it's not X's fault, or at least nothing that's not fixable by shipping a few mode lines18:19
penguin42replacing X because of this type of thing is just entirely the wrong thing to do18:19
daftykinsit is in the majority of situations, because somehow EDID reading fails on Linux where it doesn't on Windows... and i'm only saying replace because that's the way things are going, it's not going to get fixed18:20
penguin42yeh but replacing it doesn't solve the problem it just invents a lot of new ones18:21
daftykinswhy doesn't it if the new display server has already resolved that issue atop a whole new approach?18:21
penguin42because the new display servers will all have lots of fun new imaginative screwups because they've not remembered all the things X has fixe din the last 30 years18:21
daftykinsok, but we're talking about this specific problem right now which it hasn't fixed, not other ones18:22
daftykinswhy are we even seeing such basic display woes in an OS that FOSS advocates push so much?18:22
daftykinsfair enough if the idea is just to wait for VGA to disappear, that's fine by me18:23
penguin42because people just shout and moan and say it's peoples crap monitors rather than fixing it18:25
penguin42daftykins: I dont the problem is either X or VGA18:25
daftykinswell it does need to be caveated with the fact that just because we've both seen the same result (wrong resolution) doesn't mean we've seen the same scenario18:27
penguin42right, but as far as I understand the problem is 1) 1366 isn't divisable by 8, and 2) Many TVs have broken EDID set up18:28
penguin42daftykins: but neither of those is fundamental of either VGA or X18:28
daftykinssorry but if it was 1, then it would've been fixed ages ago in software and we'd not have seen it again18:28
penguin42(1) certainly is part of the problem18:30
daftykinsfrom my perspective i see an OS that can work and one that can't, simple as that18:32
penguin42right, but neither of them is a fundamental problem with X or VGA; it's just that people can't be bothered fixing it18:33
penguin42they'd rather spend their time inventing alternatives to X instead18:33
daftykinsi think this has devolved to semantics now18:33
penguin42there's things that need fixing in a replacement for X, but this isn't one that's fundamental about X or VGA18:34
daftykinsavoiding VGA is simply easier than dealing with users with edge cases such as this18:34
penguin42my assumption is just we'll see similar problems on HDMI etc - the actual monitor ID on VGA is hardly robust, but it's pretty simple18:36
penguin42you do get problems on EDID but mostly with dodgy cables/projectors etc and for that I agree VGA is to blame18:36
daftykinsmmm, probably more issues leaning toward DRM with the digital interconnects18:38
penguin42bad firmware in TVs etc can screwup the IDs on hdmi as well18:38
daftykinsyeah, that one can be pinned on the race to the bottom with LCDs and folks choosing the quirky brands that have messed up somewhere18:39
daftykinsalthough i don't think i've seen any HDMI woes that weren't cheap cables, certainly for actual computers HDMI isn't really the wisest choice18:40
penguin42yeh well that's the big problem with the 1366 displays18:40
daftykinsnot entirely since often Windows will work with them :>18:40
DJonesGrrr, not sure whether to blame schools for failing to teach, or teens/adolecents for not learning, sat here listening to music, mates 15 year old hears a song and asks "what has Birmingham got to do with Alabama" (Listening to sweet home alabama..... Duh...19:04
daftykinsare you thinking the geographic angle to looking up that Birmingham is in Alabama? :>19:13
daftykinsmm probably was just a google away to find out19:14
DJonesAs far as I can see thats the relevant reference19:14
DJonesMaybe I'm just getting nostalgic listening to 70/80's rock music and thinking this is where I come from19:15
DJonesYeah, I am 50 years old, I grew up with 60/70/80's music, some 90's before it went  all screamy and assault to the senses19:18
daftykinsindeed, or even the wub-wubs of the last 10 years too (at least i'm told it passes for music)19:19
DJonesI've ignored most music in the last 20 years, hasn't been the same since Freddie passed away19:20
DJonesOutside of classical music, there are no strong voices19:21
DJones(Freddie Mercury)19:22
* DJones regrets cutting his waist length ponytail off19:23
daftykinsi've found that whereas i never used to walk or cycle anywhere without something on earphones, i'm much preferring to just have peace these last few years19:23
daftykinsso the music discovery has died off mostly too and just been shelved19:24
DJonesI can agree with that (But I'm married) I like silence, much prefer it to any sound except under certain circumstances, ie, I've got to be on the excercise bike/weights machine etc)19:25
daftykinsah yeah19:25
daftykinsi'm loathe to persist with any exercise right now since i'm without a shower (ripped out due to a water leak discovery and insurance claim in the works)19:26
daftykinsi'm even using the bus of late instead of cycling for the same reason19:26
DJonesYeah, I saw your rotten wood pictures19:27
daftykinsah right - just waiting on the adjuster's response right now19:27
daftykinsthen to get quotes, oy :P19:28
DJonesHopefully it'll work out right for you19:28
daftykinsthey'll cover some of it, but it's going to be a costly couple of months for sure since redoing the room will count as 'betterment'19:28
DJonesI just picked up a £400 excercise bike for £30 on a 2nd hand resale website19:28
daftykins:O that's quite the drop19:28
daftykinsi keep watching the local one's electronics pages but people are too daft to even put up the model of product they list19:30
DJonesI think there was something dodgy about buying it, bloke said he was selling it becuase of tumours in his legs, partner said she was selling it because she'd started going out on a real bike.19:30
DJonesBut, whatever...19:30
DJonesI've started looking at local bring & buy/sell websites which is where Ifoound the exercise bike19:31
DJones99% seems to be spam, but occasionally, you find a bargain19:32
zmoylan-pibut 99% of exercise bikes end up as clothes hangers... :-)19:44
* zmoylan-pi prepares to go to monthly dublin flea market tomorrow to see what bargains i can find... :-)19:46
zmoylan-pii think it's adverts on electronics were they list very specific information that is most dodgy.  suggests someone who is shifting a lot of gear...19:50
daftykinswell i listed a printer once with a link to the full spec page, had a phone call from a guy asking me if it was wifi and "can you not just read the box?"19:52
daftykins1) why do you think i'm in front of it? 2) why didn't you read the link and decide if it was right for you?19:52
daftykinsi was asking £20 for an inkjet XD19:53
zmoylan-pi....and $50 for a cartridge...? :-)20:00
daftykinsas is tradition! hence my never opening it ;D20:07
* penguin42 should have run computer-janitor on my mums machine first; it seems to have 120+ kernels installed which is making anything that updates the initrd's ***slow***20:56
daftykinsmust be using a few inodes too :>21:07
zmoylan-piyou'll never know when your mother will want to try and use a previous kernel to hack the gibson... :-P21:07
penguin42daftykins: Oh that's irrelevant compared to her mozilla cache I think21:09
penguin42hmm mind you I guess it multiplies by modules so you do get a lot21:09
daftykinswere/are you doing this all remotely?21:10
zmoylan-pithis is why i visit relatives so rarely... 'can you take a 5 minute look at our computer...'21:13
zmoylan-pihow long does it take to boot? an hour and a half...21:14
daftykinsbeats going to the hairdresser ;)21:19
zmoylan-pimoylan is an irish pun for 'offspring of the bald one'... hairdressers aren't a time consuming thing for my family... :-)21:20
penguin42ouch, it's got a few hundred linux-headers packages as well21:42
daftykinsyeah that's what i meant by yonder inodes being munched up22:00
daftykinsi always take a glance at "dpkg -l | grep linux-" and purge all the history, apt-get autoremove doesn't always do the job22:01
penguin42yeh it's about 15mins into deleting them22:04
penguin42still going; it's down about 1M inodes so far :-)22:05
zmoylan-piremember when you did updates and only 1 computer had an internet connection and it was the one been updated fixed so you had no access to the internet? :-)22:07
penguin42oh only vaguely, I put in a firewall/nat box very early22:07
* zmoylan-pi mumbles young whipper snappers and waves cane in the air...22:08
penguin42I think it was a 386/sx at first22:08
zmoylan-piamstrad pcs, xts with single or on a good day twin 5.25" floppies.  or on a really really good day a single 3.5" floppy22:14
zmoylan-pibefore getting a mitac xt at work with a 20mb hardcard22:15
daftykinsuh oh we've got us a good old fashioned oldest-tech-off!22:15
zmoylan-pisorry sorry... in modern news i may have found a replacement for my dumbphone...22:16
* penguin42 notes the 386/sx was just my earliest router/nat box - my 1st machine was a BBC B with a cassette player for storage22:16
zmoylan-pioh, in that case a zx spectrum +222:16
daftykinszmoylan-pi: *gasp* but... but the nokia!?22:17
zmoylan-piall hail the glorious cassettes for storage... :-D22:17
zmoylan-pii see the latest argos catalog now has cassette players for hipsters22:17
zmoylan-pitechnically if the hardware tests pass the phone it is an older nokia phone. a nokia e63.  about 3 years older than my nokia asha 302 which was made in 201222:18
zmoylan-piit's in near mint condition with the camera and flash still covered by factory cellophane strip and earphone socket plugged with cap.22:19
zmoylan-piand i should have a directory somewhere here with all my symbian apps and data... :-)22:20
zmoylan-pi€39 shekels with a 90 day warranty to find any hardware bugs22:21
daftykinsnot a huge loss then if it turns out to be a duck22:22
zmoylan-piyup.  i might give python a go on symbian again.22:22
zmoylan-pii like the nokia dumbphone but i do need a text editor and i can find no java based one that works for the 30222:23
zmoylan-piand there's a certain joy when people ask how often you need to charge it and you just say sunday :-D22:24
daftykinsthis OnePlus 3 / 3T a couple of mates have got now seems to be giving them 4 days, which is pretty good for a full size smartphone with 4G22:26
zmoylan-pi4 days is very good but how heavy a user are they.  when i used psion i got a week from batteries when most got a month22:27
daftykinsmmm they said normal usage for them, which their prior phone got a day on22:27
zmoylan-piwhen my iphone 3g was brand new i once ran it from 100% -> 10% in just over an hour22:27
daftykinsmust've had poor optimisation for trying to ramp up the power and find a UMTS signal at the time22:28
daftykinswhat was local coverage for 3G like at that point?22:28
zmoylan-piseems taking pics, using maps, gps, data and sending tweets eats the battery.  in a very good 3g coverage area22:28
zmoylan-pi...while listening to music22:29
zmoylan-piwhereas the 302 does all that bar gps for 14ish hours and reached 50% battery22:30
zmoylan-pibut 4 days even on light use on a smart phone would suggest that even i would struggle to make it run flat in 1 day22:37
daftykinscould be22:40
daftykinsi'm a bit religious with mine of turning wifi off when i leave the house... switching down to 2G only when home due to the granite etc22:41
zmoylan-pifor example my huawei y625 cheapy tesco media player was used for 3+ hours listening to podcasts and mp3s and is down to 54%22:41
zmoylan-pivia bt headset. wifi off22:41
zmoylan-pinow tomorrow when i head to the flea market i'll have bt off as well and use fm radio and it will be about the same as fm radio eats the battery a fair bit22:43
zmoylan-pii use llama for turning off wifi automatically. handy app22:44
daftykinsno holidays to Norway for you with that thing, then :) given their FM switch-off22:44
zmoylan-pithey plan to turn off fm radio... but i've heard a few people say they may have to back down.  i have a dab radio and i do like it but i would never buy a portable dab radio as reception is awful22:45
daftykinsdon't think i've seen one in use yet22:45
zmoylan-pieven in radio blackspots in ireland (lots of granite mountains) fm radio works fairly well.  dab, not at all22:45
zmoylan-pii got 2 cheap dab radios in tescos. ireland has dab coverage for dublin area and there's 1 great station that plays bbc, npr, chinese, german news hours so you get some interesting coverage of events22:46
penguin42 <still deleting kernel images>22:50
daftykinssee i would've backed up /home and nuked it with a clean LTS image22:51
zmoylan-pihindsight is 20/20 :-)22:51
penguin42well I did back up /home, but hmm - I should have done the computer-janitor first22:51
daftykinswell no, i just don't believe in upgrades of any kind22:51
zmoylan-pispoken like a true windows user :-D22:52
daftykinsand enough Loonix to know :>22:52
* penguin42 has had ubuntu boxes survive at least 5 years of 6 monthly upgrades22:52
daftykinseeeeh, exceptions i'm sure - but when it's your time on the line22:52
zmoylan-piyeah, but next time penguin42 sees number of kernels > 20 they'll remember the waiting today...22:53
zmoylan-pifor me it was if i ever saw a user had more than 3000 data files... backups over serial then parallel and then finally usb cables would take f.o.r.e.v.e.r.22:55
daftykinsthat's definitely the longest bit of the job, mmm22:56
daftykinskeep seeing budget machines that are new enough but still lack USB 3.0 of late22:56
zmoylan-piit was then quicker to take apart the pc, move the drive to another pc with a spare drive and copy via hard disk transfer22:56
daftykinsi've actually found that it's quicker to boot a live Loonix session and mount NTFS volumes, when there's a single disk config, and copy to an external as it saves having the OS running too22:57
zmoylan-pilive distros of linux are a godsend22:58
daftykinseven done some Windows only tasks by pasting executables onto install media and hitting shift+F10 to get a command prompt window on top of the installer screens23:01
penguin42right, it's just about booted OK in 14.04, press the button again....23:37
daftykins* a Wile-E-Coyote crater appears in the Manchester area23:37
zmoylan-piand acme dodges another refund... :-P23:38
penguin42Meep Meep!23:39
penguin42I mean it should be quicker this time right - I mean it's not got a zillion kernel files to delete, and it couldn't possibly keep me up until 5am....23:40
penguin42and yes, lots and lots of inodes, down from ~2.4M to ~500k - but still only 5%-1% of inode usage so not actually a problem23:43
daftykinsmmm, did once have a user who'd run out from so many upgrades and all the headers kicking around23:44
penguin42This is a useful size hard drive, might be more of a problem on an SSD say; I dont hit it on my other machines because I have separate /boot which ubuntu constantly falls flat into on every update23:46
daftykinsonly if someone tried to cram a Linux distro onto one of those little cache SSDs that's ~32GB23:47
penguin42I've only run out of inodes on old systems with discs in the 10s of MB or when creating things like floppy installations23:49
daftykinsi read a piece earlier speaking of SK Hynix planning a 72 layer 10nm 3D NAND die by year end O_O23:49
daftykinshmm, too long ago to recall what this #ubuntu help requester had23:49
* penguin42 wonders what the aspect ratio of that is - I mean 72 layer23:50
daftykinsthey're pretty slim :>23:50
penguin42yeh but if a bit is in the 10s of nm across, by the time you get 72 layers it's very deep23:52
daftykinswelp, means they'll reach 256Gb so 64GB per chip23:54
penguin42a quick search for hynix 72 layer said 512Gb23:54
daftykinsah my mistake that's what i meant, ja23:54
daftykins2TB on a tiny M.2 SSD :)23:54
zmoylan-piseagate have a 12tb spinny drive in the works with 14 and 16tb to follow in 18 months or so...23:55
daftykinsthey're also firing lots of folks and closing a factory... still blows my mind how they sell drives with only a 12 month warranty too23:56
daftykins(some models that is)23:56
daftykinsdoesn't exactly speak of confidence...23:56
penguin42daftykins: http://www.chipworks.com/about-chipworks/overview/blog/intelmicron-detail-their-3d-nand-iedm23:57
zmoylan-piyeah, my last seagate died after i spent a week transferring files onto it's 2tb capacity23:57
zmoylan-pibut then at this point i've had drives from every manufacturer fail on me23:57
daftykinsnothing new to me in that link, sir23:58
zmoylan-pii usually just add them to top of my naughty list and buy some other manufacturer till a new failure drops them from the top23:58
daftykinsthey keep on merging and so we're running out :)23:59
* penguin42 was hoping for a vertical scale on that micrograph23:59
zmoylan-pithis is sadly very true23:59

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