/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/03/02/#xubuntu-devel.txt

Unit193bluesabre: I/we missed another xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin release, huh.00:31
bluesabreUnit193, hard to keep up with that one00:38
Unit193Translation+memleak, grabbed it.00:39
bluesabreflocculant, how so?00:39
Unit193You keep doing the important stuff, I'll keep the others off your back. :P00:39
bluesabreUnit193, :)01:00
flocculantbluesabre: dragging on time bar with mouse works, selecting somewhere along the bar with the mouse doesn't, > mouse key tries to work07:37
flocculantthought I mentioned it when you were asking about bug 133778607:41
ubottuError: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1337786 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1337786). The error has been logged07:41
flocculantbug 1667786 even07:41
ubottubug 1667786 in parole (Ubuntu) "Parole 0.9.0 crashes when skipping any video" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/166778607:41
knomedo we have any reason not to bump the documentation license up to CC-BY-SA 4.0 (from 2.5)?09:57
knomeaiui, https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/licensing-considerations/compatible-licenses/ confirms that this should be ok in terms of license compatibility, but please correct me if i'm wrong...09:57
slickymasterWorkchecking it knome 09:58
Unit193https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/04/msg00032.html in regards to 3.0 vs 4.0.  Does the license say "or later"?  If we're free to, 2.5 is something to get away from.10:01
knomedoes not10:01
knomeare translations considered contributions?10:02
knomei mean in the sense of licenses10:02
slickymasterWorkknome, since we'll continue to distribute all the changes made under the same license as the original I don't see why not10:02
slickymasterWorkI believe they are, knome 10:02
knomeright, so if we needed to ask contributors for permission, that'd be a lot of people10:02
Unit193Yes, the headers have "Same license as the orig work"10:03
Unit193(But might be worth it, considering: https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2015/11/msg00001.html - https://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses#Creative_Commons_Attribution_Share-Alike_.28CC-BY-SA.29_v4.0)10:04
knomeyes what?10:19
knomewe need to contact everybody or not? :)10:19
slickymasterWorkfrom what I read in https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2015/11/msg00001.html it does seem we have10:22
knomelet's take the discussion here...10:25
knomepractically, what are our options?10:25
knomedo we send a message to each person on the list by Unit193 via LP/email?10:25
knomeor would it be "just fine" if we sent a general message on the devel mailing list?10:26
slickymasterWorkwhat if some of the emails are no longer active?10:26
knome(potentially explicitly (C)CC'ing people with emails)?10:26
knomewell their launchpad accounts are active10:26
slickymasterWorkthat would mean we'd have to put translations on halt10:26
knomewell, not really10:26
slickymasterWorkright, but do we really NEED their explicit acceptance?10:27
slickymasterWorkin the form of a reply, that is?10:27
knomeby Unit193s interpretation, yes10:27
knomei'm still looking at https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/licensing-considerations/compatible-licenses/10:27
knomeand speciically the point10:27
knomeVersion 2.0 and 2.510:27
knomeYour contributions to adaptations of BY-SA 2.0 or 2.5 materials may only be licensed under:10:27
knomeThe license used for the original work, or a later version of that BY-SA license.10:28
knomeeven more specifically: "OR A LATER VERSION OF THAT BY-SA LICENSE"10:28
knomebecause for 1.0, they explicitly say there is no compatibility mechanism10:28
knomeso it would be different if we were porting from that...10:28
slickymasterWorkthat was the reason behind me saying tha since we'll continue to distribute all the changes made under the same license as the original I don't see why we couldn't bump the documentation license10:29
knomepleia2, input plz?10:29
slickymasterWorkand it would be easier to get acceptances/replies from the documentation contributors than getting them from the translators since the later are a larger universe10:30
knomei don't mind the work to send a message to each translator as well10:32
knomei just don't think it will be very fruitful10:32
slickymasterWorkand that's where the problem is, knome 10:33
slickymasterWorkdo we have the need of an explicit acceptance from them?10:33
knomeso before we dig deeper in any of this, can we say "CC-BY-SA 4.0 or later" if we update the license?10:33
knomeianal10:33
slickymasterWorkianal?!10:34
knomei am not a lawyer10:34
slickymasterWorklol... same here10:34
slickymasterWork"... can we say "CC-BY-SA 4.0 or later" if we update the license?" <- no clue10:34
knome"If you take a work under BY-NC-SA 2.0 and make something new from it, for example, you can re-publish under BY-NC-SA Japan, or BY-NC-SA 7.4 (when that comes)"10:35
knomefrom https://creativecommons.org/2004/05/25/announcingandexplainingournew20licenses/10:36
knomeso if you are free to create a new piece of work with the contributions by people A,B,C under BY-NC-SA 2.5, why wouldn't you be able to relicense the original work as well?10:37
knome(and yeah, the same goes for BY-SA: Similarly, a derivative made from a work under BY-SA 2.0 may be published only under BY-SA 2.0, BY-SA (iCommons license), or BY-SA 9.1 ...)10:37
slickymasterWorkfrom your link knome: "Version 2.0 licenses that feature the Share Alike requirement now clarify that derivatives may be re-published under one of three types of licenses: (1) the exact same license as the original work; (2) a later version of the same license as the original work; (3) an iCommons license that contains the same license elements as the original work (e.g. BY-SA-NC, as defined in Section 1 of each license). The ve10:38
slickymasterWork"...The version 1.0 licenses required that derivative be published under the exact same license only. "10:38
knomeindeed10:39
slickymasterWorkbut like everything legal, it's all too kafkian :P10:40
knomemy take is to send an email to devel noting of this intention to upgrade (and we can send messages to LP accounts) and see what comes10:41
knomebut i'd also like to hear a comment from pleia2 10:41
Unit193knome: It's not a problem to just bump it.10:41
knomeUnit193, this information is based on...? :)10:42
slickymasterWorkwhat about emailing canonical legal asking for a clarifying view on this? 10:42
knomeerghh :)10:42
knomethat might take a while10:43
slickymasterWorkJessica Kearns is helpful with some things regarding UF10:43
knomei'm not opposed to being in touch with them if you feel that's a good idea10:43
knomebut i'd like to hear what changed Unit193's mind too :P10:44
slickymasterWorklack of sleep and too much coffee, perhaps?10:44
Unit193"You may distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly digitally perform a Derivative Work only under the terms of this License, ***a later version of this License with the same License Elements as this License***, or a Creative Commons iCommons license that contains the same License Elements as this License (e.g. Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 Japan)."10:45
knomeoki10:45
Unit193https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/legalcode legal text is fun.10:45
knomeso as i kind of interpreted from the beginning10:45
knomeyeah, i read that too10:45
Unit193**You may distribute,**10:45
Unit193As I said: Does the license say "or later"?   this one does! :D10:46
knomeoh10:46
* Unit193 is not a lawyer.10:46
knomethe *license*10:46
Unit193But anyway, that's how I read it.10:46
Unit193Nice.10:46
knomethe thing i find the most amusing is10:46
knomethat an entity that creates new licenses says this:10:47
knomeNo. Creative Commons is not a law firm and does not provide legal advice or legal services.10:47
slickymasterWorklol10:47
knomei completely understand that, but it's just so funny :P10:47
Unit193"Well, you kind of do.." :P10:48
knomeyep10:48
flocculantbluesabre: is there actually any real point in reporting a thunar issue on launchpad? 12:45
bluesabreflocculant, potentially... but would be nice to clean up the issues we have once/if we get the SRU moving12:45
flocculantso for the moment I won't make sure something is in 2 places12:46
flocculantjust confirmed xfce 1336412:46
ubottubugzilla.xfce.org bug 13364 in general "After moving files, a Ghost file sometimes remains in Detail View" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1336412:46
bluesabrefun12:47
flocculantmmm - but at least it stays up :)12:47
bluesabresounds like it should be an easy fix12:47
bluesabrebut its thunar12:47
flocculanthah12:47
bluesabreflocculant, I might have found another one, noticed yesterday12:49
bluesabreif thunar is watching a directory where there are lots of changes, say "Downloads" when you're grabbing media files, it freezes at some point12:50
flocculantbluesabre: I'll be trying to clean up thunar bugzilla 12:50
flocculantbluesabre: oh - I just saw that on lp12:50
bluesabreoh nice12:50
flocculantwell sort of at least > bug 164317812:51
ubottubug 1643178 in thunar (Ubuntu) " When a folder is displayed where there are big files that are growing, it locks" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164317812:51
flocculantbluesabre: ftr - I've not seen that, but it would be something I would likely have hit12:51
triode13i'm new here. i've just set up KVM and performed an Install (entire disk) with the Zest daily. no bugs. should i report results?13:23
Perigeetriode13:  Thanks to flocculant training me yesterday I know the answer to this! You can login with your Ubuntu One account here and record your result at the bottom of the page: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/369/builds13:42
knometriode13, Perigee: nice to see new faces around here :)14:16
knomewelcome!14:16
triode13oops. didn't realize my Launchpad id was not triode13. changed my Launchpad id from 'fishski13' to 'triode13'. 14:16
knomewe welcome all kinds of launchpad id's ;)14:16
Perigeelol, yeah who took Perigee on Launchpad?! *shakes fist*14:18
Perigeeknome: \o/14:18
knomeslickymasterWork, akxwi-dave: https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/xubuntu-docs/contributor-doc-improvements/+merge/31878014:28
knomeyou also should have mail regarding this14:28
slickymasterWorkyes14:28
slickymasterWorkwill review it later at home, knome 14:28
knomesure14:29
knomefwiw, the documentation team basic stuff is from a document that i wrote for jjfrv8 back when he was pondering if he wanted to take the doc lead hat :)14:29
slickymasterWorkack14:30
knomeaaaand now i can clean that file from temp.knome.fi :P14:30
slickymasterWork:)14:30
knome(if you're wondering, yes, that was the source for all the motivation to get this update done :P)14:31
knomeit kind of got out of hand, i admit it14:31
knomewould've been easy to hit and run14:31
PerigeeHey since you're talking docs, I was curious if there was any interest in video training for Xubuntu. I thought I saw mention of it somewhere in the past few days on the site. My side-job is creating IT video training courses, so I thought I would offer.14:31
knomePerigee, absolutely, if there are people who are willing to create the content14:32
Perigeeknome: Is there a wishlist/outline of what you want? Or just go through the written Xubuntu/XFCE docs and make videos for each piece?14:32
knomeno, that would probably be the first thing to figure out14:33
knomenot sure if we want videos for exactly the same kind of stuff, because text and video are very different formats and enable different kinds of things to be done14:33
knomeyou'll want to talk with slickymasterWork (the doc lead) and pleia2 (the marketing lead) about that14:34
PerigeeYeah, following a rigid "here is how you change a setting" document can get boring. Most of the stuff I do is teaching concepts + a demo, which is a bit different in style.14:34
knomeand starting a discussion thread in the devel mailing list can produce some results as well14:34
knomeanother question we need to tackle is the "where"14:35
knomewe'll want to create some kind of official account if we do "official" videos14:35
PerigeeYeah, I assume an official Xubuntu Youtube channel would be a good start14:35
knome(we can definitely give you the control over that too, along with somebody from the team)14:35
knomeyeah - that's one of the questions - youtube, vimeo, or something else ;)14:35
PerigeeOk cool, well if slickymasterWork wants to chime in at all, I'm here all day. I'll get around to sending an email to the mailing list as well.14:36
slickymasterWorkthe idea wouldn't be to flood the potential venue of the videos with loads of material, Perigee 14:36
knomei use both (and any) to consume, but i don't know well enough to know which one would suit us better14:37
slickymasterWorkand thanks for volunteering to make them14:37
knomeoh, also, we'll likely want to use some consistent artwork with them - you'll want to poke me when you need some14:37
PerigeeSure, I know XFCE has specifics for screenshots, so I'm sure we would want the same14:38
slickymasterWorkpreferably those videos would demonstrate a wider scope of the nuclear use of Xubuntu and core Xfce apps14:38
knomefor the configuration, probably just default settings14:38
knome(unless the videos cover changing them, obviously you should do that then ;))14:38
knomebut i was meaning some intro artwork - and the video cover art14:39
knomeor whatever it is called14:39
slickymasterWorkPerigee, potential candidates for videos can be Catfish, LightDM GTK+ Greeter, Whiskermenu, LightDM GTK+ Greeter Settings, MenuLibre, Mugshot14:43
slickymasterWorkanother potential series could be done about contributing14:44
slickymasterWorkQA testing, and documentation14:45
slickymasterWorksomething like setting up a launchpad account, submitting merge proposals, etc14:46
PerigeeMakes sense14:47
slickymasterWorkPerigee, like knome already stated starting a discussion thread in the devel mailing list should be one of your first steps so everyone in the team can also chime in14:49
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [contributor-doc-improvements] r628 Merge flocculant's improvements for the contributor document... (by Pasi Lallinaho)15:08
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [contributor-doc-improvements] r630 Improvements for contributor docs:... (by Pasi Lallinaho)15:08
flocculantthanks triode13 - thanks also to Perigee for actually taking some notice of me :)16:20
flocculantPerigee: also see work items here http://dev.xubuntu.org/#tab-details/spec=xubuntu-z-qa16:23
* flocculant notes not invited to the contributor doc merge party so will wait until it's been merged and approved before saying anything 16:24
flocculant:p16:24
knomeflocculant, meh :P16:26
knomeflocculant, feel free to comment if there is anything16:26
flocculantI assume it's the same as it was yesterday when I acked it :)16:26
knomeclose to16:26
knomei mean, i've poked around a *bit* but mostly things that are just minutiae16:27
=== Zren_ is now known as Zren
knomeflocculant, otherwise important is hard to define, as it means many things, amongst others important because it's highlighted on the slideshow or because it's a feature that is particularly complex or something else18:33
knomeflocculant, will propose this:18:36
knomeflocculant, The documentation team works with the developers to ensure any new features that are part of the core functionality of the operating system are covered in the documentation. In addition, the documentation team makes sure features highlighted in the installer slideshow or any other marketing material are appropriately documented.18:36
flocculantknome: yea I realise that18:36
knomeit's mostly the "marketing" stuff, anything that's "xubuntu-like" could already be considered "core"18:37
flocculantack - wfm18:38
flocculantassuming that replaces the first sentence :)18:38
knomeyes18:38
flocculantk18:38
knomealso: When any documented features are removed or changed, the team makes sure the documentation does not refer to any removed functionality18:39
knomereplacing again18:39
flocculantyep - wfm again18:39
flocculant:)18:39
knomenext one: The team should be aware of changes to new releases, particularly on LTS releases and potential SRUs, as those might affect documentation.18:40
flocculantyep - wfm again18:40
knomeright, the essential issue18:41
knomethe packages that only exist in xubuntu are essential as well18:41
knomemaybe s/essential/important/ and add essential to the first one?18:41
knomeactually, i'd do the following18:42
knomefirst title == Essential: Packages that only exist in Xubuntu18:42
knomesecond == Important: Used by Xubuntu18:42
knomethird == $something_else: Mainly built for and used by Xubuntu18:42
flocculantyup - I'll not say it again :p18:43
knomedoes that work though?18:43
knomeand any suggestions for the last one?18:43
flocculantthat last is really just wording - the other way round it looks a bit odd18:43
knomegmm18:44
knomehmm too18:44
knomemaybe we should merge the last two?18:44
knomeso i'll do that, remove the prefixes and we'll see how that looks18:44
flocculantyea I think used and important could merge18:45
knomeyep18:45
knomedone that already18:45
knomenow let me push the new rev18:45
flocculantknome: did you do Documentation String Freeze prior to uploading ?18:46
knomeyep18:46
flocculantk18:46
knomewas happy with the new proposal so18:46
flocculantyea - just checking before you new rev :D18:47
knomeand done18:48
knomealso see slight wording change on "used by" - no essential there eitehr :P18:49
knomeeither either18:49
flocculantknome: thanks - I commented but didn't approve - just in case you can only have 1 approve :D18:52
flocculantbbl18:53
Perigeeflocculant: 10-419:05
knomeflocculant, you can have as many approves as there are reviewers19:14
knomehad to jump off in a rush19:15
knomeand now off again, bbl today19:15
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [contributor-doc-improvements] r631 Improvements based on Kev's comments on MP #318780... (by Pasi Lallinaho)19:23
flocculantakxwi-dave: did you see ping yesterday on the new page at x.org?20:22
knomenow we only need slowmasterWork's approval20:25
Unit193knome: And certainly nice to see new faces, yours is getting old!20:42
knomeindeed!20:53
* knome tries to hide the wrinkles20:53
flocculantknome: and did you look at the page on x.org?21:03
knomewhich one again? :)21:03
flocculantUnit193: yea - always good to see new faces21:03
flocculantknome: the newest one created by me - when it was really new when I pinged the url21:12
knomei might have seen it but forgotten21:12
flocculantbefore today - which would make it old :p21:12
knomeoh right, yes, the new page (which is an article) looks good21:14
knomemaybe s/iso/ISO/21:14
flocculantyea - isn't meant to be an article - but to replace the qa page 21:14
knomethe tracker link seems to have one " too many21:14
knomeyep, i gathered21:14
flocculantbluesabre you noticed this connectivity checking chatter on the u-dev list? 21:18
flocculantUnit193: ^^ 21:18
knomei think Unit193 even commented about it21:18
knomei really think we should blacklist that feature21:18
knome01:35  knome: my vote is on blacklisting that21:19
knome02:26  bluesabre: Unit193, feel free to also blacklist that for us21:19
flocculantI did read it - then forgot - but remembered when I see the rt for it wondering IS can handle that21:19
flocculantaah cool - I read that as well 21:19
knomert?21:19
knomeIS?21:19
flocculant.ubuntu.com21:19
knomeyeah21:19
knomei don't think those are related at all :P21:19
Unit193flocculant, knome: I haven't only because it doesn't exist yet, but we're gonna blacklist it.21:19
flocculantwas just going to try logging in at x.org and ready to create a ticket21:19
knomeUnit193, ack21:20
flocculantUnit193: k21:20
flocculantknome: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=2960021:20
knomeoh...21:20
flocculantknome: logged in first time - I think browser knew I was at rt.u.c and told x.org21:22
knome;)21:22
flocculantanyway changed iso and "21:22
knomegreat21:22
knomelet's get akxwi-dave have a look at it21:22
knomethen we can publish imo21:22
flocculantyup21:23
flocculantakxwi-dave: https://xubuntu.org/?p=4279&preview=true21:23
Unit193flocculant: Dang, David is emailing them like they're friends.21:23
flocculanttalking to Perigree made me do that21:24
knomewho?21:24
flocculantUnit193: ha - I think I know what you mean :)21:25
flocculantknome: I suspect all the forum tickets 21:25
knomeoh21:25
knomeheh21:25
knomeyeah, i've seen them...21:25
knomethat's the most you see when you log in :P21:25
flocculant:)21:26
Unit193https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=3025 heh.21:29
slickymasterevening21:36
knome'lo21:39
slickymasterwell Unit193, after more than seven months dealing with unresolved UF issues, I started to follow the tone of their own mails21:39
slickymasterok knome https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/xubuntu-docs/contributor-doc-improvements/+merge/318780 ← approved 22:02
knomeso what i'm doing is acutally just pushing to main, not merging22:03
knomeaaand that's done22:03
slickymastergreat22:03
slickymasterthanks22:03
knomenow feel free to extend the documentation documentation :P22:04
slickymaster:P22:04
* Unit193 waits for the merge proposal about merge proposals.22:04
knomeok, next things next22:05
knomeeg. update the xubuntu brand assets package22:05
krytarikknome: I'm sure this is an oversight, but why not put 'xubuntu-docbook-xhtml-contributor.xsl' into 'contributor-docs/libs/' rather than 'libs-common/'?22:16
knomelaaaaaaaaaazy22:16
knomei'll likely get it fixed the next time i touch that file - i'm pretty sure that's sooner than later...22:17
bluesabreevening all23:00
knomehelloooooooo!23:01
slickymasterevening bluesabre 23:02
bluesabrehi knome 23:02
bluesabrehi slickymaster 23:02
bluesabreno bananas yet23:03
bluesabre:D23:03
knomenope23:03
knomeor wallpapers23:03
bluesabre>.<23:03
slickymasterbut mañanas in no time23:03
bluesabre:D23:03
ochosievening bluesabre 23:07
bluesabrehi ochosi 23:07
knomeall peoples!23:08
bluesabrewoo!23:11
slickymasterhi ochosi 23:12
bluesabreone week to UI freeze23:26
bluesabretwo weeks to doc string freeze23:26
knomeyep23:27
knomeslickymaster, time to schedule the next meeting23:29
slickymasterthinking of net week23:33
slickymaster* next23:33
slickymasterI'll be in Lisbon from monday and tuesday23:34
slickymasters/and/to23:34
slickymastermaybe wednesday23:35
Unit193Got anything interesting for the meeting?23:35
slickymasterthe upcoming UI and doc string freezes is something23:36
knomeyeah, but really just the general23:36

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