[00:44] <knome> Perigee, i should have been replying your xchat mail, but briefly; i think after a quick review i can see any reason why we couldn't ship it with the ISO
[00:45] <Perigee> knome: It's quite a quiet mailing list. :)
[00:46] <knome> yeah, even more reason that it shouldn't have been so long with no answer from me
[00:46] <Perigee> knome: I think that sounds great. How do you plan on shipping it if hexchat isn't installed?
[00:46] <Unit193> And why, if hexchat isn't installed? :P
[00:46] <knome> i think "just install it at a location where hexchat can find it when it is installed"
[00:49] <Perigee> I'm on board however you think is best. Glad you like it
[00:50] <knome> well, i don't use hexchat myself, but i think things like that are a "good service" for our users, should they want to have a more unified look
[20:09] <ochosi> Unit193: hmm, i'm hitting the "garcon-gtk3-1 >= 0.5.0... not found" error on zesty (i think flocculant had that issue too) with the xfce4-gtk3 ppa enabled. i think the package in ubuntu is called garcon-2, not gtk3, correct?
[20:09] <ochosi> if so, what's up with that?
[20:10] <ochosi> i mean do you expect the panel to change the package name in configure.ac.in?
[20:11] <ochosi> also, i'm wondering why this is working for me on yakkety, the package there is also called libgarcon-2-0
[20:14] <flocculant> I grabbed garcon from the gtk3 ppa - also appear to have -1-0, -1-0-dev, -2-0,-2-0-dev and common installed - likely I just installed anything I could find with the name in it
[20:14] <flocculant> ochosi: building the panel issue? 
[20:14] <ochosi> but it's still not working for you in zesty, correct?
[20:15] <ochosi> yeah
[20:15] <flocculant> no - it is working for me in zesty 
[20:15] <ochosi> i'm currently working on a docker image which will pull the latest panel from master and start it up
[20:15] <ochosi> so we can do reliable, reproducible testing
[20:15] <flocculant> oooh
[20:15] <ochosi> in a semi-automated way, without VMs
[20:15] <flocculant> I have panel master in a vm 
[20:16] <flocculant> keeping the same vm for any of this testing xfce stuff
[20:16] <ochosi> yeah, makes sense
[20:16] <ochosi> but i want to enable anyone to set this up automagically
[20:16] <flocculant> yea
[20:17] <ochosi> also, the dockerfile will document the build depends
[20:17] <ochosi> and the build process
[20:23] <flocculant> I'd be interested to see how that all works - and how to create them - and all of the things :p
[20:25] <ochosi> i'll show you when i'm done, no worries
[20:25] <ochosi> dockerfiles are very readable anyway
[20:25] <ochosi> no black magic
[20:26] <flocculant> :)
[20:29] <ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/ya7fwSL.png
[20:29] <ochosi> that's my docker container already running
[20:32] <flocculant> nice :)
[20:32] <flocculant> ftr - same version here in the vm :)
[20:33] <Unit193> garcon-2.pc and garcon-gtk3-1.pc are in there, now the question is if those are missing any deps.
[20:34] <Unit193> garcon_api_version=1?
[20:41] <Unit193> I presume you have libglib2.0-dev and libxfce4ui-2-dev, as well as the gtk3 headers?
[20:44] <flocculant> iirc I had to install garcon, 4ui and wnck to get panel building
[21:07] <knome> i'm wondering if we should enable some kind of Q&A stuff on the website
[21:07] <knome> so people could send their (support) questions in easily
[21:08] <knome> we might want to edit the format of the questions
[21:09] <ali1234> just send them to askubuntu?
[21:10] <ali1234> (and then actually check the xfce tag there from time to time)
[21:10] <knome> well, that's one option, but tbh, the xfce/xubuntu related/specific questions disappear in there
[21:10] <knome> and ultimately, we could estimate whether the answers should be "just answers", or FAQ articles on some larger subjects, or even in the documentation
[21:11] <knome> the idea i have/had is that the questions aren't public unless person X from group Y has checked them
[21:11] <knome> so not a free forum for all to contribute
[21:11] <ali1234> so curated, like the new tutorials.ubuntu.com
[21:11] <knome> yep
[21:12] <ali1234> nothing wrong with doing that, but i think it compliments AU rather than replacing it
[21:12] <knome> yep
[21:12] <knome> indeed
[21:13] <ali1234> currently there is only one open question on AU tagged xfce or xubuntu
[21:13] <ali1234> and it has a +50 bounty
[21:13] <knome> heh
[21:13] <ali1234> and it's really specific and technical
[21:13] <knome> the other question related to this is "can people with issues with xubuntu find askubuntu well enough"
[21:13] <ali1234> they can if you link to it on xubuntu.com...
[21:13] <knome> we do
[21:13] <knome> expect only on xubuntu.org ;)
[21:14] <ali1234> heh... well, if they can't find that, then they won't find this new thing either i think
[21:14] <knome> unless the new thing is literally *on* the site
[21:14] <knome> "type your question here"
[21:14] <knome> big box
[21:14] <knome> :)
[21:15] <ali1234> you have to look really hard to find the AU link
[21:15] <knome> i know, that's partly because it isn't one of the primarily suggested outlets for xubuntu support
[21:16] <knome> maybe it should be above launchpad answers, and maybe even above forums - though people will disagree with that
[21:16] <knome> but no way it should be presented as more important/better place than IRC or the mailing lists
[21:16] <ali1234> in terms of support i think it should
[21:16] <ali1234> definitely LP answers
[21:16] <ali1234> that's more for developer questions
[21:17] <knome> yes... and i don't think xubuntu developers hang out there
[21:17] <ali1234> maybe not in intent, but in practice you won't get answers to noob questions there
[21:17] <Unit193> I'd display those last ones differently.
[21:17] <knome> Unit193, feel free to propose :)
[21:17] <Unit193> More bullet point style.
[21:17] <knome> this is constantly evolving, and we're better than 8 years ago...
[21:18] <ali1234> i once got into an argument with someone on the ubuntu discourse (which no longer exists) about how ubuntu support is stratified and that is not a bad thing
[21:18] <knome> yeah, sure
[21:19] <ali1234> like, you don't go to #ubuntu-devel and ask how to install ubuntu
[21:19] <knome> i mean, obviously different people need different kinds of methods
[21:19] <ali1234> yeah, totally
[21:19] <knome> tbh, i'd probably drop the community help wiki from that list
[21:20] <knome> that's near dead, and if there is any content that we think is worth saving, we should probably find a better venue for it
[21:21] <knome> and i've looked through it a few times and there's not really much touching xubuntu at all
[21:23] <ali1234> i think it's okay if more advanced channels like IRC or LP answers are buried on the bottom of a FAQ page, but 1st line support, whatever you decide that is, should be front and centre as you say
[21:24] <knome> though IRC is the best way to get answers fast, and we even have a page with webchat, so connecting is no problem
[21:24] <flocculant> I'd be inclined to move irc down - people ask things and more often than not they're gone long long before anyone answers
[21:24] <knome> documentation obviously should come first - because if we've taken the time to document something, it's probably something very generic
[21:25] <ali1234> +1... ask and leave happens all the time
[21:26] <flocculant> ali1234: yup - especially when nick is xubuntu1234 
[21:26] <knome> well again, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/.loganalysis/
[21:27] <ali1234> oh... what is that?
[21:27] <knome> the number of nicks joined #xubuntu every month
[21:27] <flocculant> knome: I assume that's logins
[21:27] <knome> yep
[21:27] <knome> the next step is to check how many of them spoke
[21:27] <knome> and asked a question, etc.
[21:27] <flocculant> not logins answered or logins lasting longer than 5 minutes :)
[21:27] <knome> nope, not yet
[21:27] <ali1234> grouped by how they connected?
[21:27] <knome> yep
[21:28] <ali1234> what are "documentation" / "online documentation"?
[21:28] <ali1234> how do you determine those?
[21:28] <knome> the docs shipped with xubuntu / the docs at docs.xubuntu.org
[21:29] <knome> the irc link is on the startpage of those
[21:29] <ali1234> yes, but how do you tell? they all link to a slightly different variation on the web chat?
[21:29] <knome> yep
[21:29] <ali1234> i see, clever
[21:29] <knome> they prefill the nick with xubuntu..? where .. is random numbers and ? is the outlet used to connect from
[21:29] <knome> of course if somebody changes their nick, we can't follow them
[21:29] <ali1234> that's pretty clever. do the other flavours do this?
[21:30] <knome> i don't think so
[21:30] <flocculant> we started doing it a couple of years back iirc
[21:31] <knome> also unknown is when the 10th symbol is not one of the preset ones, most often a number - pre-2014 we just had xubuntu... as the nick template
[21:31] <ali1234> i'm surprised that shipped docs are so big. i always go straight to google
[21:31] <knome> well it's very visible on the whisker menu
[21:31] <knome> so people who might not be so technically inclined, or who don't have strong google-fu might prefer that
[21:32] <flocculant> I'd hazard a guess that anyone in here is unlikely to use our docs - just memory instead ;)
[21:32] <knome> well, maybe
[21:32] <flocculant> s/anyone/most
[21:32] <knome> at least not use the local docs, then press the irc button :P
[21:32] <flocculant> :)
[21:33] <knome> so again, this does not register nicks that don't match the pattern
[21:33] <flocculant> you see me sometimes as tracker...
[21:33] <knome> maybe one of the next steps is to figure out how many nicks that only join once or twice per month and who aren't registered to nickserv (to try to rule out regulars) join and add those to the totals
[21:35] <ali1234> i can tell you what else they do...
[21:35] <ali1234> i'm not in #xubuntu but i'm in #ubuntu-mate
[21:35] <ali1234> and i'm nearly always the first alphabetical list
[21:35] <knome> heh
[21:35] <knome> right
[21:35] <ali1234> i get about 10-20 PMs from randoms every day
[21:36] <ali1234> always from there
[21:36] <knome> so maybe we should make Unit193 set up a bit with the name aaaaaaargh
[21:36] <knome> and catch the questions there
[21:36] <flocculant> ha ha 
[21:36] <ali1234> they always just say "hi" and then quit
[21:36] <knome> well at least that's some kind of stats too ;)
[21:36] <flocculant> 300 idiots this month ...
[21:37] <knome> so maybe we should check if nick X output more than 3 lines
[21:37] <knome> and then differentiate those per outlet too
[21:37] <flocculant> knome: maybe also check if nick x outputs the same string more than once? 
[21:37] <knome> also see if any of them include a question mark or some trigger words
[21:38] <knome> flocculant, to try to gather if they are not answered in the first 3 seconds? ;)
[21:38] <ali1234> you'd want to give that bot voice as well, different clients sort in different ways
[21:38] <knome> that was only a half-serious suggestion, but maybe.
[21:38] <flocculant> knome: some wait a little bit longer - guessing they repeat when they seem someone else join
[21:38] <knome> flocculant, yeah, that doesn't help much
[21:38] <ali1234> it was half-seriously considered on #ubuntu-mate too, after i complained :)
[21:38] <knome> ;)
[21:39] <knome> i'd say it's not a huge amount of people who repeat actually
[21:39] <knome> anyway
[21:39] <knome> the sauna is hot
[21:39] <knome> bbiab
[21:39] <flocculant> :)
[21:39] <knome> will hack a bit on the script then
[22:17] <ochosi> flocculant: so this is what it looks like: https://github.com/ochosi/xfce-test/tree/feature/xfce4-panel-from-master
[22:18] <ochosi> you can simply git clone the repo, then run "make setup", "make build" and then "make test-setup"
[22:18] <ochosi> then the session should be running
[22:22] <ochosi> in order to avoid the second step (which basically builds the docker image) i will set up some travis CI integration on github and push the images to dockerhub
[22:23] <ochosi> so for testing you'll be able to pull those from there and simply run the container (i.e. make test-setup)
[22:57] <slickymaster> to what stuff are you referring specifically, flocculant 
[22:57] <slickymaster> ?