[16:33] <tsimonq2> wxl: chrisccoulson broke Firefox on Lubuntu 16.04 :P
[16:33] <tsimonq2> wxl: Subscribed Lubuntu Packages Team to bug 1671273
[16:33] <wxl> no one's maintaining alsa?
[16:35] <tsimonq2> wxl: Don't get me started. YOU, sir, have said MANY times that Pulseaudio sucks, go ALSA... :P :P :P
[16:35] <tsimonq2> wxl: And not in upstream Firefox, no
[16:35] <wxl> tsimonq2: that's beside the point. i'm disagreeing with the wording that it's not maintained.
[16:35] <wxl> oh i see support in firefox is unmaintained
[16:35] <wxl> ah well
[16:35] <tsimonq2> wxl: Maybe Alsa is still maintained, but not in Firefox anymore
[16:35] <tsimonq2> Yeah
[16:35] <wxl> itme to switch browsers
[16:35] <tsimonq2> Bah bah bah
[16:35] <tsimonq2> No no no
[16:36] <tsimonq2> Make pulseaudio a hard dep :P
[16:36] <wxl> you'd rather have a crap load of pulse additions than keep the footprint small?
[16:36] <wxl> i can't say i agree
[16:36] <wxl> i'd put that up for discussion on the mailing list
[16:37] <tsimonq2> wxl: I will.
[16:37] <wxl> we CAN still do chrom*IUM* on i386
[16:37] <wxl> really though i'd also consider figuring out a solution to not using recommends
[16:38] <wxl> it's really a difficult to sustain policy
[18:12] <tsimonq2> wxl: So I think this whole ALSA thing makes one thing clear
[18:12] <wxl> ?
[18:13] <tsimonq2> wxl: We should really pay someone with the technical ability to poke around in Firefox and know what they are doing to help maintain ALSA
[18:13] <tsimonq2> wxl: And for that we need donations.
[18:13] <tsimonq2> wxl: Status update?
[18:14] <tsimonq2> wxl: (or in general be able to throw money at things so that they can be maintained)
[18:14] <wxl> oh man that's still a ways away
[18:14] <tsimonq2> wxl: How far away?
[18:15] <wxl> months, years
[18:15] <tsimonq2> Aghhhhhhhhhh
[18:17] <tsimonq2> wxl: What are you waiting on?
[18:17] <wxl> tsimonq2: legal help
[18:17] <wxl> unless you have money to pay for it
[18:17] <tsimonq2> No I don't
[18:17] <wxl> well there you go
[18:17] <wxl> wait
[18:17] <tsimonq2> wxl: Like a FSF lawyer or something like that?
[18:18] <wxl> https://www.softwarefreedom.org/
[19:21] <lynorian>  bug 1675127 looks really nasty
[19:23] <tsimonq2> lynorian: Can you confirm it?
[19:23] <lynorian> I reported it
[19:23] <tsimonq2> Oh :P
[19:24] <tsimonq2> wxl: Thoughts? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[19:25] <lynorian> this might be hardware specific to a wierd setup should I try to install with no network first
[19:28] <wxl> tsimonq2: i'd suggest trying to reproduce it again
[19:29] <lynorian> I did try to reproduce it again and was able to before I even reported it with the exact same setup
[19:30] <wxl> ok so it' snot a fluke
[19:31] <wxl> and we know that we can't reproduce it with older versions, right?
[19:31] <lynorian> I have not tried in a bit on that hardware in that setup with usb wifi
[19:31] <lynorian> I have for like 16.04 or 16.10 but not recent dailies
[19:31] <wxl> try alpha 2
[19:32] <lynorian> ok
[19:32] <lynorian> not beta 1?
[19:32] <wxl> well
[19:32] <wxl> should be the same i imagine
[19:32] <wxl> this failed on 17.04.7
[19:33] <wxl> alpha 2 is 17.04.4
[19:33] <wxl> beta 1 is also 17.04.7
[19:33] <lynorian> ah version of ubiquity now I get it
[19:34] <wxl> same with daily
[19:34] <wxl> so i can assume beta 2 is also 17.04.7
[19:35] <lynorian> wxl yes my bug report shows that
[19:38] <wxl> lynorian: this occured when trying to connect to wireless, right? no problem otherwise?
[19:38] <lynorian> yes I could not see if there were other problems
[19:38] <lynorian> as it crashed ubiquity entirely
[19:38] <wxl> did you try with ethernet only to confirm you did not have the problem if wifi wasn't being employed?
[19:39] <lynorian> not quite yet
[19:39] <wxl> let's double check that
[19:39] <wxl> looks like an update of netcfg happened in 17.0.3 http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/u/ubiquity/ubiquity_17.04.7/changelog
[19:40] <lynorian> wxl I was able to connect to internet with the cable to report the bug
[19:41] <wxl> and unfortunately, we don't really have an iso with 16.10.14<version<17.04.4
[19:41] <wxl> yes but it would be good to know that it doesn't happen at all, just to be extra sure
[19:42] <wxl> if we can confirm it is indeed with wireless, then i'd ensure that it also happens with other flavors, especially ubuntu proper
[19:42] <lynorian> wxl got to partitioning at least
[19:42] <wxl> and if it fails there, then we can sound the alarm all around the world :)
[19:43] <wxl> is there a way to have virtualbox directly access the wifi card?
[19:44] <lynorian> wxl not on this box with amd=64 no vtx
[19:44] <lynorian> hence why I built my awesome hypervisor
[19:44] <wxl> well i was thinking of a testcase we may be able to build to allow a wider range of users to do things
[19:44] <lynorian> I have not done much to get physical passthrough working
[19:45] <lynorian> I know this desktop supports it probably just have not done it
[19:45] <wxl> well actually
[19:46] <wxl> this happens early.. before the actual partitioning
[19:46] <wxl> so anyone should be able to run it on any machine without affecting their existing install
[19:46] <lynorian> wxl yep
[19:46] <wxl> that said, i'll try to do something tonight
[19:46] <wxl> but tsimonq2 could help too :)
[19:46] <lynorian> I have another laptop I could try but argh did I not charge that
[19:47] <lynorian> it has one quite bad wifi card that I hate but I could use the same usb one
[19:51] <lynorian> wxl booted into install on ethernet
[19:54] <lynorian> this probably might explain why no one ran into this earlier though
[19:58] <lynorian> it did pass running the test with ethernet on same hardware so should I put that on the tracker?
[20:00] <wxl> yes plese
[20:01] <wxl> looks like this is a nm issue of some kind https://launchpadlibrarian.net/311914177/UbiquityDebug.txt
[20:08] <lynorian> wxl I agree with that or in how ubiquity tries to integrate nm into the installer
[20:09] <wxl> lynorian: can you check alpha 2?
[20:09] <lynorian> I will
[20:29] <lynorian> this may be my usb wifi is breaking
[20:29] <lynorian> hard time even getting power to it
[20:36] <wxl> that's why it would be good to test on another machine
[20:41] <lynorian> wxl yeah I mean I could use the network on this desktop with it
[20:41] <wxl> lynorian: with built in wifi?
[20:42] <lynorian> wxl I am starting to wonder if that ancient wifi still is picking up electrical signal
[20:43] <lynorian> I was testing it on a 7.5 year old really heavily used laptop with an even older wifi adapter like 12 years we have had it well it is I think technically proprity of time warner to get wifi working with a computer my mom used with windows ME on it
[20:43] <wxl> oh wow
[20:43] <wxl> suffice it to say it's probably at least an edge case XD
[20:52] <lynorian> time to test the laptop with the really wierd aweak attena
[20:52] <lynorian> but is a ton newer
[20:57] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- Unapproved: makedev (zesty-proposed/universe) [2.3.1-93ubuntu1 => 2.3.1-93ubuntu2] (lubuntu)
[21:09] <lynorian> wxl well this laptop I did not research and has a bad wifi chip but the installer did not crash
[21:09] <lynorian> well at least that is better
[21:28] <lynorian> oh wow I need to force it to use the right attena
[22:09] <wxl> lynorian: so not reproducible on other hardware?
[22:10] <lynorian> wxl yes
[22:10] <lynorian> I cannot reproduce on any other hardware I have
[22:10] <wxl> annoying
[22:10] <wxl> hat ethose kind
[22:17] <wxl> lynorian: just make sure there's comments on the bugs, thx :)
[22:28] <lynorian> wxl thank you
[22:57]  * tsimonq2 stretches
[22:57] <tsimonq2> I needed that nap.
[22:57] <tsimonq2> Anyways...
[22:59] <tsimonq2> wxl: I really really hate this schedule. Do not divorce from your wife, and if you were to ever even think about it, not until Sierra is 18. Seriously, this sucks.
[22:59] <wxl> tsimonq2: don't worry, i won't. :)
[23:00] <tsimonq2> wxl: So no, unfortunately I CAN'T test. I'm at my mom's stuck on this Chromebook until Friday
[23:00] <wxl> tsimonq2: well, we're almost done anyways. but release notes are yours! :)
[23:00] <wxl> tsimonq2: tl;dr on lynorian's bug i think it's very specific to that hardware
[23:01] <tsimonq2> wxl: Oh shoot, did I tell you about Rafael messing with the slideshow?
[23:01] <wxl> uh
[23:01] <wxl> no
[23:02] <tsimonq2> wxl: Well it's out of date.
[23:02] <wxl> i knew that
[23:02] <wxl> henk's email was very complete in that regard :)
[23:02] <tsimonq2> wxl: So I guess we'll still have a slideshow that has 16.10 and lubuntu.me and LSC still on there :/
[23:02] <tsimonq2> s/me/net/
[23:02] <wxl> yep
[23:02] <wxl> so he IS fixing it?
[23:03] <tsimonq2> He's working on it.
[23:03] <lynorian> Oh I have a bug on needing to get the new website on it
[23:05] <tsimonq2> wxl: So I wanted to ask you. I had zero clue about this pulse/alsa thing before this Firefox bug. I know the basics on our stack (kernel, core utilities, GTK, GUI applications)) but what's the breakdown on other parts of the stack?
[23:06] <wxl> well you're asking about the sound stack essentially right?
[23:06] <tsimonq2> wxl: I'm being broad here but that's a good start :)
[23:08] <wxl> well
[23:08] <wxl> i guess it doesn't have too be too complicated
[23:09] <wxl> i guess x is kind of similar
[23:09] <wxl> it's a server that takes clients and serves as a bridge to the kernel modules for display, keyboard, mouse, etc.
[23:09] <wxl> the "sound server" does the exact same thing
[23:10] <wxl> but the clients are generally applications, e.g. audacious
[23:10] <wxl> and the kernel modules only relate to audio hardware
[23:10] <wxl> ultimately, across the whole of the linux domain, i know of only two actual sound servers
[23:10] <wxl>  1. ALSA
[23:10] <wxl>  2. OSS
[23:11] <wxl> the others "sound servers" basically use those actual sound servers as middleware
[23:11] <wxl> two of those are:
[23:11] <wxl>  1. PulseAudio
[23:11] <wxl>  2. JACK
[23:11] <wxl> although JACK can also work with PA, too
[23:12] <tsimonq2> Ah, ok.
[23:12] <tsimonq2> wxl: How bloated is Pulse compared to just using ALSA directly?
[23:12] <wxl> tsimonq2: is it a lot? no. but it counts for something
[23:13] <tsimonq2> wxl: Then sell it to me -- why do we need to use ALSA and not Pulseaudio + ALSA?
[23:13] <wxl> installed size is 6 times greater with pulseaudio
[23:14] <wxl> but installed size of alsabase is 500 so XD
[23:14] <wxl> pulseaudio can better handle complex cases including mutiple clients simultaneously accessing the devices
[23:14] <Unit193> wxl: Don't forget about the whole "When PA works, it's great.  When it breaks, good freaking luck" part. :P
[23:14] <wxl> totally that
[23:15] <wxl> i cannot tell you how many sound issues i've fixed by removing PA :)
[23:15] <wxl> the fact that it is a layer on top of ALSA can lead to a great degree of confusion
[23:15] <Unit193> Well the good news is if it's a dep of things, you can still keep it from autospawning, thus getting the same result.
[23:16] <wxl> :)
[23:16] <wxl> i see that ALSA is generally a good choice for the average user
[23:16] <wxl> it is complex cases that require something like PA or JACK
[23:16] <wxl> or depending on what they are, some hardcore asoundrc hacking
[23:17] <Unit193> JACK is more for the audio advanced group, UbuntuStudio people.  PA is useful if you have bluetooth audio or whatever.
[23:18] <tsimonq2> wxl: So if Pulseaudio is the thing with bluetooth audio or whatever, why do we ship bluetooth support? :P
[23:18] <wxl> yeah i haven't found it any more helpful with bluetooth
[23:18] <tsimonq2> wxl: You can do it with ALSA?
[23:19] <wxl> sure
[23:19] <wxl> like i said, i do
[23:20] <tsimonq2> Oh
[23:20] <tsimonq2> Ok
[23:20] <wxl> but i'll tell you what, when it comes to doing audio production, i 1000000% use JACK
[23:20] <tsimonq2> Gotcha :)
[23:20] <wxl> the only reason i've ever installed pulseaudio was because i couldn't find any easy way to route web browser strems through JACK using ALSA only
[23:20] <wxl> but no one does goofy crap like that besides me :)
[23:21] <Unit193> wxl: With PA I can use another computer's sound system, can you do that with Alsa?! :---D
[23:21] <wxl> right right
[23:21] <wxl> could with JACK :)
[23:21] <wxl> Unit193: can you do it with 0 latency??? XD
[23:23] <wxl> honestly though i don't consider PA totally evil. it's (generally) worked well for me in kubuntu. but i generally recommend to people not to install it unless they have to or unless their particular flavor of their particular distro really supports it
[23:23] <tsimonq2> wxl: Ok, I get the whole ALSA thing now. Now, as a Firefox user, I think we should continue shipping Firefox because it's bore lightweight than that RAM hog that is Chromium. So... why Chromium?
[23:23] <lynorian> I do not notice that much difference but have really simple setups
[23:23] <wxl> also keep in mind that bluetooth is not ONLY used for audio
[23:23] <tsimonq2> s/bore/more/
[23:23] <lynorian> yeah there are bluetooth keyboards and mice
[23:24] <wxl> i've seen lots of tests on firefox/chromium and ultimately have found every one of them to be biased in some way or another
[23:24] <wxl> i think the conclusion i've come to reach is that they're both ram hogs
[23:25] <lynorian> or the content to run in javascript is too bloated and not simple
[23:25] <wxl> also i have had better experiences in general with chromium than firefox
[23:25] <wxl> right
[23:25] <lynorian> if more people used static site generators would we have this problem?
[23:25] <wxl> here here lynorian :)
[23:26] <tsimonq2> Hahahaha
[23:28] <tsimonq2> wxl: So why a browser that is a RAM hog? Why can't we just go with a lightweight browser?
[23:29] <tsimonq2> lynorian: Hey, any chance you can knock out the last ISO test?
[23:30] <tsimonq2> lynorian: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/374/builds/144355/testcases/1301/results
[23:30] <lynorian> tsimonq2, I just did
[23:30] <tsimonq2> lynorian: Oh ok
[23:30] <tsimonq2> lynorian: Yay
[23:32] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- Builds: Lubuntu Alternate amd64 [Zesty Beta 2] has been marked as ready
[23:32] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- Builds: Lubuntu Desktop amd64 [Zesty Beta 2] has been marked as ready
[23:32] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- Builds: Lubuntu Alternate i386 [Zesty Beta 2] has been marked as ready
[23:32] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- Builds: Lubuntu Desktop i386 [Zesty Beta 2] has been marked as ready
[23:32] <tsimonq2> wxl, lynorian: Done :) ^
[23:32] <wxl> tsimonq2: we can go with a lightweight browser. it has been suggested many times
[23:33] <wxl> um
[23:33] <wxl> ok now everyone go test kubuntu :)
[23:33] <wxl> tsimonq2: it's called xombrero
[23:36] <tsimonq2> wxl: Ok, so, Mr. QA guy, go ask the list for testing. :)
[23:37] <wxl> tsimonq2: for testing what? i thought you were done mr. release manager? :)
[23:37] <tsimonq2> wxl: For your browser pick.
[23:37] <wxl> yeah not going down that road again
[23:37] <wxl> ultimately people are just going to pick whta they like
[23:37] <wxl> i've done this before
[23:38] <tsimonq2> wxl: But why switch off of Firefox then? :))
[23:38] <wxl> tsimonq2: cuz ppl being booboo butts about alsa
[23:39] <tsimonq2> wxl: Then how do we do that?
[23:39] <tsimonq2> wxl: Should we just go for it? :P
[23:39] <Unit193> Because wxl likes chromium.  "< wxl> ultimately people are just going to pick whta they like" :--D
[23:39] <wxl> exactly!!!
[23:40] <wxl> tsimonq2: well, right now we have pulseaudio so i guess it doesn't matter :/
[23:40] <tsimonq2> Unit193: So we just switch and when people complain, say "sudo apt install chromium-browser"? :P
[23:40] <wxl> we really should get rid of PA
[23:40] <wxl> and if infinity's going to make chrisccoulson stick the ALSA code back in, then we should be good
[23:41] <wxl> at least until we start having problems
[23:41] <tsimonq2> wxl: You know what would be just awful? If we hacked Ubiquity to make the user pick the browser they want installed by default. XD
[23:43] <wxl> tsimonq2: just get rid of PA, would you?
[23:44] <tsimonq2> wxl: Oh, that's right. Is this something I can just make an executive decision and be done with?
[23:46] <tsimonq2> wxl: I mean, I'll talk with Julien
[23:47] <tsimonq2> wxl: But we're not gonna be like you-know-who here... :|
[23:47] <tsimonq2> wxl: "If Julien says it works, then it works, he knows best" - yeah nope let's not do that again
[23:49] <wxl> well julien can offer advice on why it may or may not be good
[23:49] <wxl> he's someone good to bounce technical ideas off of
[23:49] <wxl> ultimately he knows lubuntu best
[23:50] <tsimonq2> wxl: Sure, so I'll ask him, but we're gonna talk about it, not say, "let's just not touch it at all because Julien is the wise one he knows best he knows everything about the flavour of Lubuntu"
[23:50] <wxl> :)
[23:50] <Unit193> And he is the dev team...
[23:51] <tsimonq2> Unit193: Technically, yeah. But if I can research and we can have an intelligent conversation about the aspects of some things, then I'd rather do that than not touch it at all.
[23:51] <wxl> Unit193: i think what tsimonq2 is saying is that he's part of a team of people rather than the emperor
[23:52] <tsimonq2> Yeah.
[23:52] <tsimonq2> That.
[23:52] <wxl> not like julien has ever acted like he was in that role
[23:52] <wxl> he's ALWAYS been very willing to work with others
[23:52] <wxl> but there was someone.....
[23:52] <tsimonq2> You-know-who...
[23:52] <wxl> he-who-shall-not-be-named