[06:24] <anuragh> can someone suggest me  best tutorials for snapcraft ?
[11:07] <mup> PR snapd#3077 closed: interfaces: convert systemd backend to new APIs <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3077>
[11:08] <Son_Goku> zyga: who do we talk to for getting Launchpad's Red Hat bug tracker integration fixed? https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/bugtrackers/redhat-bugs
[11:12] <mup> PR snapd#3072 closed: interfaces: use udev spec <Created by stolowski> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3072>
[11:13] <zyga> Son_Goku: hey
[11:13] <zyga> Son_Goku: cjwatson I think
[11:13] <zyga> Son_Goku: those are pretty tiny and probably just neglected
[11:13] <zyga> Son_Goku: but should be easy to fix
[11:13] <Son_Goku> the bug tracking has been broken for a couple of years, and I think disabled for nearly as long
[11:14] <zyga> Son_Goku: yeah, niche feature
[11:14] <zyga> Son_Goku: I think we need to report a bug / talk to cjwatson
[11:15] <Son_Goku> well, I personally like being able to tie upstream and downstream bugs together and have them tracked and injected into the bug report
[11:15] <Son_Goku> it helps keep everyone in the loop, so to speak
[11:15] <zyga> Son_Goku: yeah, that's why this feature exists here but it doesn't work perfectly everywhere
[11:15] <zyga> Son_Goku: we had some issues and the github tracker was fixed
[11:16] <zyga> offtopic, I got some set of nylon screws and standoffs so that my boards don't just lay flat on the desk
[11:16] <zyga> but ... obviously... wrong size for everyone
[11:16] <Son_Goku> O.o
[11:16] <zyga> pi2, pi3, dragon, ci20
[11:16] <zyga> eh
[11:16] <zyga> why doesn't anyone think about consistency
[11:16] <zyga> especially for casual folks like us here, not mechanical engineers that love the 10s of marginally different screws they can use
[11:16] <zyga> or have easy and well-understood supply chain
[11:17] <zyga> dragon has smaller screws holes than anyone else, ci20 has huge holes :/
[11:17] <Son_Goku> it's super annoying
[11:17] <Son_Goku> had the same problem with the Pine vs the Pi3 vs Pi2
[11:18] <zyga> and no sata :D
[11:18] <zyga> oh, I have one more board
[11:18] <zyga> I forgot about it
[11:18] <zyga> I mean plenty of others but this runs linux
[11:18] <zyga> orange pi
[11:18] <zyga> one of the gazillion variants
[11:18] <Son_Goku> the ARM ecosystem just depresses me
[11:19] <Son_Goku> so much potential, but so bloody screwy
[11:19] <zyga> but we're stuck with it
[11:19] <zyga> wow
[11:19] <zyga> actually, this last board has sane screw holders
[11:19] <zyga> go figure...
[11:19] <Son_Goku> at least Red Hat and Linaro made the server ARM boards not stupid
[11:19] <Son_Goku> but goddamn
[11:19] <zyga> yes
[11:20] <zyga> no matter how I hate firmware
[11:20] <zyga> this is a good thing
[11:20] <zyga> (acpi and all that stuff)
[11:20] <zyga> btw, snapd for mageia?
[11:20] <Son_Goku> in 2017, over 85% (and I'm being generous here) of all ARM boards requires special snowflake firmware
[11:20] <zyga> sync from fedora or do we need a new package?
[11:20] <Son_Goku> zyga: mostly sync from Fedora
[11:20] <zyga> well, it's like a micro controller world really :)
[11:20] <Son_Goku> just need to disable mandatory installation of the selinux subpackage
[11:21] <Son_Goku> and since we still need AppArmor fixes upstreamed, still no confinement goodness
[11:21] <Son_Goku> technically, Mageia currently uses TOMOYO
[11:21] <Son_Goku> but nobody really supports it, so *shrugs*
[11:22] <zyga> isn't it a thing in some vertical market?
[11:22] <zyga> automotive/
[11:22] <Son_Goku> yes
[11:22] <zyga> or something like htat
[11:22] <zyga> it's a japanese invention
[11:22] <Son_Goku> yep
[11:23] <zyga> like ruby
[11:23] <zyga> :D
[11:23] <zyga> speaking of which
[11:23] <zyga> I want to do my own thing today
[11:23] <zyga> no work :)
[11:23] <zyga> so after I'm done with the boards
[11:23] <Son_Goku> well, the gratuitous use of capital letters is indicative of Japaneseness :)
[11:23] <zyga> I'll blog some more
[11:23] <zyga> and work on rob
[11:23] <Son_Goku> rob?
[11:23] <zyga> rob is my sandbox for creativity and just sheer NIH :D
[11:23] <zyga> rob = make
[11:23] <Son_Goku> ah right
[11:24] <zyga> rób :-)
[11:24] <zyga> (ó is pronounced exactly like u)
[11:24] <Son_Goku> so... like rub or rube?
[11:25] <zyga> not like US "r" (a-r) more like plain rrrr
[11:25] <zyga> rrrr-u-b (short u)
[11:25] <zyga> heh
[11:25] <zyga> I wanted to add a feature
[11:26] <zyga> rob --pronounce (or something)
[11:26] <zyga> that has a wave table inside
[11:26] <zyga> and just plays it
[11:26] <Son_Goku> haha
[11:27] <zyga> I was thinking about a new license as well
[11:27] <zyga> SSL (sustainable software license)
[11:27] <zyga> the name sucks :)
[11:27] <Son_Goku> :/
[11:27] <zyga> the idea is that it is proprietary with escrow so it turns to a pre-determined FOSS license if abandoned
[11:28] <zyga> so you'd be able to sell new copies
[11:28] <Son_Goku> please don't make custom licenses for the fucks
[11:28] <Son_Goku> you know what happens when you do
[11:28] <zyga> but would not die if I stop caring
[11:28] <zyga> well, I think it's a real problem for today FOSS software
[11:28] <zyga> it's hard to fund
[11:28] <zyga> it's just an idea
[11:28] <zyga> I don't need to put everything into one box
[11:29] <zyga> and rob is just a toy for now
[11:29] <zyga> but if one could really sell FOSS software (practically, not like today but not really) at low price in high volume I think world would be better
[11:31] <zyga> would you buy a program for $5 knowing that it becomes GPL if you don't get an update in 12 months?
[11:42] <zyga> Son_Goku: ah, sorry got disconnected
[11:42] <zyga> all the boards have stand offs now :)
[11:42] <Son_Goku> heh
[11:43] <Son_Goku> today is going to be the day where I spend most of my time playing Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
[11:43] <Son_Goku> I have a Nintendo Switch and my god, it's amazing
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: ooooooooh
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: tell me
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: I love zelda
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: did you get the switch?
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: or the wii u version?
[11:43] <Son_Goku> yes
[11:43] <Son_Goku> Switch version, ofc
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: ohhh!
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: tell me! how do you like it?
[11:43] <Son_Goku> it's awesome
[11:43] <zyga> Son_Goku: bot the console and the game
[11:43] <Son_Goku> the Joy-Cons are a literal joy to use
[11:44] <zyga> Son_Goku: ooooh :-( I don't have it yet
[11:44] <Son_Goku> 1-2-Switch game made it easy to really pick it up and get familiar
[11:44] <zyga> Son_Goku: I was thinking about buying horizon zero dawn as it's not as $$$ as a new game *and* a new device
[11:44] <Son_Goku> and they really did a good job emulating real-world feel with the haptics
[11:44] <zyga> Son_Goku: did you play on the go?
[11:44] <Son_Goku> I've done a bit of that, yes
[11:45] <zyga> Son_Goku: does it play equally well?
[11:45] <zyga> Son_Goku: is the framerate the same?
[11:45] <zyga> Son_Goku: and is the screen good?
[11:47] <Son_Goku> the screen is very nice, and the framerate is good, most of the time
[11:47] <Son_Goku> there's some moments where it slows down a bit, particularly when there's lots of actively moving things
[11:47] <Son_Goku> but it doesn't happen often enough to be concerning
[11:47] <zyga> Son_Goku: but does that happen only while on the go? I'm trying to understand if it's slower when on batter
[11:47] <zyga> battery
[11:48] <Son_Goku> when not connected to the TV, it's actually better
[11:48] <Son_Goku> less pixels to push
[11:48] <zyga> oh, curious :)
[11:49] <zyga> Son_Goku: and the actual game
[11:49] <Son_Goku> battery life is about 3.5~4 hours with Zelda
[11:49] <Son_Goku> supposedly the battery capacity lends itself well for 8 hours, but who knows?
[11:52] <zyga> Son_Goku: how far did you get into the game?
[11:53] <Son_Goku> I'm not too far in yet, I've only gotten to two shrines, and I have to get to two more before I get a paraglider to get further along
[11:53] <Son_Goku> but damn, the world is HUGE and somewhat challenging to navigate
[11:53] <zyga> Son_Goku: bring it to the next snappy sprint :)
[11:53] <Son_Goku> if there is one, I will :)
[11:53] <zyga> Son_Goku: my kids have nintendo 3DSes but they rarely game
[11:54] <zyga> Son_Goku: nowadays it's just the PS4
[11:54] <zyga> Son_Goku: star wars battlefront for my son and lots of gentle games for my daughter (she adores flower)
[11:54] <zyga> Son_Goku: they played zeldas but still too challenging for my son (he hates reading)
[11:54] <Son_Goku> I usually bring my 3DS with me wherever I go
[11:54] <Son_Goku> but this time around, I'll be able to bring a real console too :D
[11:55] <zyga> ha, indeed :)
[11:56] <zyga> Son_Goku: what do you plan to do after you finish zelda
[11:56] <zyga> Son_Goku: with each new console lack of games is a risk
[11:57] <Son_Goku> well, I have another game on the way, it just isn't here yet :)
[11:57] <zyga> Son_Goku: and nintendo and shun-3rd-party approach is an extra factor
[11:57] <Son_Goku> they've done the opposite this time
[11:57] <Son_Goku> even freaking Skyrim is going to be on the Switch
[11:57] <zyga> Son_Goku: well but skyrim is ooold
[11:57] <Son_Goku> that's not the point
[11:57] <zyga> Son_Goku: and I played it years ago after getting it for 10 euro
[11:57] <Son_Goku> it's a third party vendor who historically doesn't do Nintendo
[11:58] <zyga> Son_Goku: my point is that unless they bring *new* stuff 3rd party is not that fun (spend 60 to play skyrim)
[11:58] <zyga> Son_Goku: I hope you are right :)
[12:01] <Son_Goku> but regardless, there's still a huge catalog of Nintendo games to release too
[12:03] <zyga> Son_Goku: well, but for adults most are nooooot that fun
[12:03] <zyga> Son_Goku: I love mario
[12:03] <zyga> Son_Goku: but what else is there
[12:04] <Son_Goku> I'd like to consider myself an "Adult(TM)"
[12:04] <zyga> AFON
[12:04] <zyga> adult fan of nintendo
[12:04] <zyga> ;D
[12:04] <Son_Goku> I find the Donkey Kong stuff fun, the Sonic games coming are also looking to be quite good
[12:05] <Son_Goku> though Sonic is SEGA, not Nintendo
[12:05] <zyga> isn't sega done and a part of EA now?
[12:05] <Son_Goku> they're still owned by Sega-Sammy Holdings
[12:06] <Son_Goku> they acquired Technosoft last year
[12:07] <zyga> Son_Goku: I'd love to see some new IP show up, something fres
[12:07] <zyga> fresh*
[12:07] <zyga> not another mario/zelda/metroid spin
[12:07] <Son_Goku> oh, Splatoon is very fun
[12:07] <zyga> or open switch to indie games
[12:07] <Son_Goku> oh you didn't hear?
[12:08] <Son_Goku> Switch is actually going to be opening to indie games
[12:09] <Son_Goku> http://indieobscura.com/article/817/confirmed-nintendo-switch-indie-game-lineup
[12:10] <Son_Goku> I actually ordered Has-Been Heroes
[12:11] <zyga> mmm, interesting
[12:11] <Son_Goku> more details on the "Switch": http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/1/14777672/nintendo-switch-indie-games-releases
[12:11] <zyga> so back to licenses
[12:12] <Son_Goku> hm?
[12:12] <zyga> Son_Goku: would you pay for a game on Linux?
[12:12] <zyga> Son_Goku: (say inside a snap as that's the only format that is open for any publisher and has a payment system)
[12:13] <Son_Goku> I pay for Linux games quite often, actually
[12:13] <Son_Goku> but portability is a huge problem
[12:13] <Son_Goku> frankly, I would not today with snap
[12:13] <Son_Goku> and as a game dev, I don't even like snapping my game right now
[12:14] <Son_Goku> admittedly, my game is freely available and open source
[12:14] <Son_Goku> but still
[12:14] <zyga> Son_Goku: what risks or issues do you see?
[12:14] <Son_Goku> well, the main issue is that custom hardware and GL issues still plague it
[12:14] <Son_Goku> custom game pads are a pain to make work normally anyway
[12:14] <Son_Goku> but this adds another level of pain
[12:15] <zyga> Son_Goku: I think we know what the solution is
[12:15] <zyga> Son_Goku: but needs some focus to get there
[12:15] <zyga> Son_Goku: stuff like proprietary 3D stacks need to become snaps so there's no ABI issue
[12:15] <Son_Goku> one of my friends who works on a game engine project was approached about snapping it, and he didn't feel like it was worth it
[12:16] <Son_Goku> he had two big problems with it:
[12:16] <Son_Goku> 1. He despises developing on the Ubuntu platform
[12:16] <Son_Goku> 2. Most of the things he needs to work don't currently in snaps
[12:17] <zyga> Son_Goku: what are the 2. things that don't work?
[12:17] <Son_Goku> well, there didn't seem to be an easy or obvious way to link game content to the engine runtime snap
[12:17] <zyga> Son_Goku: (even in devmode?)
[12:18] <zyga> Son_Goku: ah so he wants a two-snap solution?
[12:18] <Son_Goku> and of course, custom hardware support is basically nil
[12:18] <Son_Goku> for developing games, that's absolutely critical to have
[12:18] <zyga> Son_Goku: any reason to pursue that today? one snap approach is far better for now
[12:18] <zyga> what custom hardware?
[12:18] <zyga> controllers?
[12:18] <zyga> or GPUs?
[12:18] <Son_Goku> controllers, GPUs, midi devices, etc.
[12:18] <zyga> Son_Goku: I'm surprised because I suspect that most things that people play would run in snaps without issues
[12:19] <Son_Goku> if you need a midi device, you're SOL
[12:19] <zyga> Son_Goku: controllers = USB interface and it's all solved (probably 5 controllers covers 99% of the planet)
[12:19] <zyga> Son_Goku: midi = dead (for gaming)
[12:19] <zyga> Son_Goku: and GPU is well known and solvable
[12:19] <Son_Goku> for music composition, it's not
[12:19] <zyga> Son_Goku: we're not talking about niche music making stuff but games
[12:19] <Son_Goku> game composers do it too
[12:19] <Son_Goku> especially for those "retro" games
[12:19] <Son_Goku> you know what I'm talking about
[12:20] <zyga> but those don't use midi to play it in the end
[12:20] <Son_Goku> no they don't
[12:20] <zyga> nobody has midi hardware in their device
[12:20] <zyga> so for game making
[12:20] <zyga> fine use whatever
[12:20] <zyga> after that there's no midi issue
[12:20] <zyga> so?
[12:20] <Son_Goku> the engine is a game development toolkit too
[12:20] <Son_Goku> engine includes runtime plus editor and manipulator
[12:20] <zyga> Son_Goku: fine, that can be shipped in whatever form
[12:20] <zyga> Son_Goku: after the game is done
[12:20] <Son_Goku> yes, yes
[12:21] <Son_Goku> but he was approached on making the engine tools snapped too
[12:21]  * Son_Goku shrugs
[12:21] <zyga> Son_Goku: is there an actual issue?
[12:21] <zyga> Son_Goku: what is the actual issue then?
[12:21] <zyga> Son_Goku: it's not midi
[12:21] <zyga> Son_Goku: ah, well, that's another story
[12:21] <zyga> Son_Goku: I think that's really phase 2
[12:21] <zyga> Son_Goku: phase one is a format for games to sell and play anywhere
[12:21] <Son_Goku> of course, when the engine tooling renders the output game, it's not using midi
[12:21] <Son_Goku> that would be stupid
[12:25] <zyga> Son_Goku: one thing gaming sucks about is cross-buy
[12:25] <zyga> Son_Goku: I got stardew valley on gog
[12:25] <zyga> Son_Goku: I dont want to re-buy on other platforms
[12:25] <Son_Goku> yeah
[12:26] <zyga> Son_Goku: gog<->steam connect is the step in that direction
[12:26] <zyga> Son_Goku: I'd love to see gog<->snap as well if they can do it
[12:27] <zyga> Son_Goku: I think it could be a boom for snaps
[12:27] <zyga> Son_Goku: seed your snap library with your gog games
[12:27] <zyga> Son_Goku: show that it works
[12:27] <Son_Goku> that'd be hard though
[12:27] <zyga> Son_Goku: show that it is convenient
[12:27] <zyga> Son_Goku: why?
[12:27] <Son_Goku> because the snap store API is unstable
[12:27] <zyga> Son_Goku: and who would be affected by that?
[12:28] <Son_Goku> gogs mainly
[12:28] <Son_Goku> no one wants to deal with that shit
[12:28] <zyga> Son_Goku: there's no api for something like connect, if there was anything like this happening that API would be stable
[12:28] <zyga> Son_Goku: besides, it is a specialized api that only two people would use
[12:28] <zyga> Son_Goku: (gog, humble bundle, maybe steam)
[12:28] <zyga> Son_Goku: as snap developer or user nobody would see that
[12:28] <zyga> Son_Goku: I think it's compelling
[12:29] <Son_Goku> it is compelling
[12:29] <Son_Goku> as long no one breaks it :)
[12:30] <zyga> Son_Goku: I think after you "own" it it's not going to be broken even if the connection part is disabled for some reason
[12:30] <zyga> Son_Goku: I should try to snap that doom game
[12:30] <zyga> Son_Goku: doom == dosbox + data
[12:30] <Son_Goku> that game would be relatively easy to do
[12:30] <zyga> but first...
[12:30] <zyga> spring cleaning
[17:38] <mup> PR snapd#3080 closed: interfaces: remove old API <Created by stolowski> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3080>
[17:39] <mup> PR snapd#3068 closed: boot: log error in KernelOrOsRebootRequired <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3068>