[02:25] <daftykins> ugh got an 'allah is doing' troll
[02:33] <Bashing-om> daftykins: Pops up now and again ... < chatter29> ?? in #ubuntu earlier .
[02:34] <daftykins> yep that's the one!
[02:34] <daftykins> seems to be from Amsterdam possibly
[02:43] <daftykins> bed for me :) g'night \o
[04:45] <lotuspsychje> good morning to all
[04:50] <lotuspsychje> !info linux-image-generic xenial
[06:14] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:54] <ducasse> morning all
[07:54] <lordievader> Hey ducasse
[07:56] <ducasse> morning lordievader - how are you today?
[07:56] <lordievader> Doing pretty good, bit sleepy.
[07:56] <lordievader> How are you?
[07:58] <ducasse> good, thanks. going a quick trip to oslo today.
[08:00] <ducasse> wow, 42 zesty updates today.
[08:12] <lotuspsychje> morning guys
[08:12] <lordievader> ducasse: Nice, have fun
[08:12] <lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje
[08:13] <lotuspsychje> hey there ducasse & lordievader
[08:13] <ducasse> morning lotus
[08:13] <lordievader> How are you doing?
[08:14] <lotuspsychje> great here
[08:14] <lotuspsychje> doing some papers for my biz
[08:22] <lotuspsychje> scanning app on ubuntu is so easy
[08:23] <ducasse> which one?
[08:23] <lotuspsychje> default scan app :p
[08:24] <lordievader> xsane?
[08:24] <lotuspsychje> yeah
[08:24] <lotuspsychje> was messing on hp photosmart scna software on vista last week, was a nightmare
[08:25] <ducasse> i thought the default on ubuntu was simple-scan
[08:25] <lotuspsychje> ah yes its simple-scan
[08:25] <lordievader> I like the network support in (x)sane.
[08:26] <ducasse> it's nice, and usually just works
[08:26] <ducasse> was plug'n'play with my epson
[08:28] <lotuspsychje> hp here
[08:28] <ikevin> some hp are craps on linux :(
[08:29] <ikevin> hi guys
[08:29] <lotuspsychje> hey ikevin
[08:29] <lotuspsychje> ikevin: wich ones?
[08:29] <lotuspsychje> much of the hp's i had worked nicely with hplip
[08:29] <lordievader> o/
[08:30] <ikevin> my all in one deskjet 3050 never has worked fine (like no color)
[08:30] <lotuspsychje> old type ikevin ?
[08:31] <ikevin> iirc, like 5 or 6 year old
[08:32] <lotuspsychje> yeah some printer drivers are not found on linux indeed
[08:33] <ikevin> hp are bad, they do an official osx driver so no linux driver :(
[08:34] <lotuspsychje> well over-all hp work most nicely with ubuntu
[08:34] <lotuspsychje> never had any issues myself
[08:35] <ikevin> maybe i need to restest, my last attempt was than 2 year old
[08:36] <lotuspsychje> ikevin: yeah would be nice to know what your printer does on a xenial perhaps
[08:38] <lotuspsychje> i had some trouble to make a canon work on trusty last year
[08:38] <ducasse> or just with latest hplip
[08:38] <lotuspsychje> and most brands dont have nice control centre app on ubuntu
[08:39] <lotuspsychje> would be nice if someone made a universal ink level & control centre
[08:40] <lotuspsychje> !info hplip-data
[08:40] <ducasse> lotuspsychje: doubt that's easy, different manufacturers do that very differently, even between models
[08:41] <ikevin> lotuspsychje, oh, that me who's bad, just plugged the printer and it has been automaticaly detected and default setup just working fine (with color) !
[08:41] <lotuspsychje> !yay
[08:41] <lotuspsychje> ikevin: wich ubuntu version are you?
[08:41] <ikevin> i'm actually on mint 18, so xenial based
[08:42] <lotuspsychje> i always played with vanilla ubuntu desktop last years
[08:42] <ikevin> scan fork fine to !
[08:42] <lotuspsychje> yay
[08:44] <lotuspsychje> ducasse: but the simple-scan app can do differen brands at the time, does control center work otherwise you think?
[08:44] <ikevin> good news, now i can play with cups & sane on my rpi to do a network printer/scanner :D
[08:44] <lotuspsychje> nice work ikevin
[08:46] <ducasse> lotuspsychje: sane provides the plugins for scanner support, there are tons of them
[08:47] <lotuspsychje> ic
[08:47] <ducasse> you can see lists on sane-project.org, but it's a bit outdated iirc
[08:50] <ducasse> plus for my inkjet/scanner, epson provides the network scanning support plugin
[08:51] <lotuspsychje> apt-cache doesnt show much on epson and canon
[08:53] <ducasse> they both have quite a few drivers on their sites aiui (haven't personally checked canon, though)
[08:53] <lotuspsychje> ah
[08:57] <ducasse> there are esc/p drivers, i think those support a bunch of epson printers
[08:57] <ducasse> (basic support, at least)
[08:58] <ikevin> in personnal use, basic support is enought
[09:05] <lotuspsychje> bbl
[09:17] <brunch875> I got me a gpg key. Does people normally use mail clients which support this?
[09:18] <ducasse> some of us, at least. gpg is a bit too complex to be widespread.
[09:20] <brunch875> I guess I should use it anyway. That way people would get curious of what "that signature is" and try to mimic
[09:21] <brunch875> Why is this, though? Lack of knowledge or is it that certificates are used instead?
[09:22] <ducasse> tip - if you use mailing lists a lot of them look down on signing list mail. certificates are even rarer, but the problem with gpg is the web of trust thing.
[09:23] <brunch875> why is it that it's frowned upon?
[09:23] <ducasse> because it's mostly pointless :)
[09:25] <brunch875> Hmph. Yeah, I'd guess so. Unless you were to send mails from a different, unknown domain
[09:27] <ducasse> the question is how will a bunch of strangers who do not have your verified key be able to tell the signature is really yours? see the wikipedia 'web of trust' article.
[09:27] <ducasse> i've gtg, sorry.
[09:30] <brunch875> Well that's what keyrings are for, right?
[09:30] <brunch875> keyserver*
[09:37] <lordievader> brunch875: Mutt has excellent support for gpg.
[09:58] <BluesKaj> HI folks
[10:00] <brunch875> mornin' BluesKaj
[10:01] <BluesKaj> 'Morning brunch875
[11:03] <lotuspsychje> good afternoon to all
[11:04] <brunch875_> afternoon, lotuspsychje!
[11:04] <lotuspsychje> u2 brunch875_
[11:04] <lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
[11:05] <BluesKaj> Hey lotuspsychje
[11:06] <lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/ubuntu-17-10-acrobatic-aardvark
[11:06] <lotuspsychje> lol
[11:06] <brunch875_> lol
[11:07] <brunch875_> my bet goes for amoeba
[11:07] <lotuspsychje> whats an amoeba
[11:08] <brunch875_> lotuspsychje: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoeba#/media/File:Chaos_carolinense.jpg
[11:09] <lotuspsychje> that will never be :p
[11:11] <lotuspsychje> isnt a !ringtail a bit like an aardvark?
[11:13] <brunch875_> one is a kitty, the other is a pig
[11:13] <lotuspsychje> lol
[11:28] <DJones_> Isn't an amoeba what a troll wants to grow up into
[11:29] <lotuspsychje> lol
[11:41] <lotuspsychje> hmm do we have a trigger like !autoremove or apt-cache clean?
[12:19] <ducasse> \o/
[12:20]  * ducasse does a happy dance
[12:20] <lotuspsychje> :p
[12:20] <ducasse> lotuspsychje: tax stuff is back, they owe me money :)
[12:20] <lotuspsychje> ohhhhhh
[12:21] <lotuspsychje> thats the only thing the .gov is good for lol
[12:21] <lotuspsychje> pay our money back
[12:21] <ducasse> so i can fix my server this summer :)
[12:22] <lotuspsychje> nice nice, what will the purpose be ducasse
[12:22] <ducasse> i don't trust the mobo anymore, it's getting old.
[12:23] <lotuspsychje> ah right
[12:23] <lotuspsychje> wb BluesKaj
[12:24] <BluesKaj> thanks lotuspsychje
[13:01] <lotuspsychje> hi de-facto
[13:31] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/dell-launches-world-s-most-powerful-15-and-17-laptops-powered-by-ubuntu-linux-514581.shtml
[13:32] <lotuspsychje> 1495 euro oO
[13:36] <ducasse> wow, that's rather spendy
[13:37] <lotuspsychje> ill try doing better :p
[13:37] <BluesKaj> wonder if there be a desktop version,...all in ones aren't for me
[13:38] <ducasse> BluesKaj: second half of april, it says
[13:39] <BluesKaj> laptops are ok for portable, but the graphics and cpu combo would be nice on a HiDef or 4K TV
[13:39] <lotuspsychje> bigger, fast ssd would be nice
[13:39] <BluesKaj> thinking of my media pc here
[13:40] <BluesKaj> laptops with all the high end specs are a waste of money IMO
[13:41] <lotuspsychje> yeah i also think so, gaming laptops are overrated
[13:41] <ducasse> i prefer desktops, but that's just me being weird i guess
[13:41] <lotuspsychje> overkill
[13:42] <lotuspsychje> but ssd's powerup any machines right
[13:42] <BluesKaj> ducasse, nothing weird about that...I don't get these ppl watching tv sports etc on their phones
[13:42] <lotuspsychje> bbl
[13:45] <BluesKaj> altho I did see a iphone connected to a 50" tv provide a hdmi HiDef signal with a mini hdmi to hdmi adapter ...seemed to work well
[13:45] <ducasse> BluesKaj: exactly, what's the point when the screen is just a few inches? streaming netflix to a phone strike me as one of those "because i can" things.
[13:46] <ducasse> if it's just providing the data stream, sure.
[13:46] <BluesKaj> yeah ducasse altho some hi end phones can act as a HiDef source
[13:47] <ducasse> my old phone has a mini-hdmi out, although i've never used it
[13:48] <BluesKaj> but there's no way i'll pay $800 for phone
[13:48] <ducasse> me neither :)
[13:50] <ducasse> phones are consumables nowadays, as long as they last for a couple of years or so they've done their job. so i buy the cheap androids.
[13:51] <BluesKaj> yeah, I have an Alcatel one touch mini ..takes good pictures, but mostly i just use it as a phone
[13:54] <ducasse> same here. i have an ssh client for emergencies and a wifi analyzer, other than that i don't really need apps. the ubuntu phones could probably work well for me, if they were actually produced.
[13:54] <BluesKaj> the OS is old so it's no point using a large capacity sdcard for storage , since I can't load the OS / into the storage to prevent constant out of space reminders from the builtin
[13:56] <BluesKaj> I've been removing silly google apps that somehow downloaded and installed by default
[13:57] <ducasse> i don't even know how big the internal storage on mine is, but for some reason i put a 32gb card in it. i'm thinking of rooting the phone so i can remove the crap, although there aren't a lot on this lg phone compared to the samsung and sonys i've had before.
[13:58] <ducasse> it would feel good to delete what i don't want, though, like facebook etc.
[13:59] <BluesKaj> yeah, I'm slowly managing to delete a lot of apps that I'll never use
[14:15] <BluesKaj> also managed to move a lot of apps to the sdcard just now
[14:19] <ducasse> sadly there are usually quite a few that can't be moved
[14:23] <ducasse> odd. chromium claims it can't read my preferences, but everything seems right. a restart doesn't help.
[14:42] <BluesKaj> chromium works great on the rpi3, compared to firefox-esr it's a much lighter load on the cpu and draws much less power to the graphics than FF.FF foze when watching a full screen video, whereas chromium ran very smoothly with no flicker or buffering
[14:43] <ducasse> i can imagine, chromium seems lighter to me as well - that's why i run it on the laptop.
[14:44] <ducasse> i guess i'll just need to kill the prefs and set it up again.
[14:44] <BluesKaj> there's voltage icon in the upper right corner that looks like a thermomter showing how much power is being used by the system
[14:45] <ducasse> on what?
[14:46] <BluesKaj> with FF it was always over 60% , chromium barely showed anything if at all
[14:46] <BluesKaj> rpi3 raspian-pixel
[14:46] <BluesKaj> raspbian
[14:49] <ducasse> right. i just run xbian as you know, so no desktop as such. other than kodi i'm thinking of moving weechat and a few other things to it, but i don't really have great faith in a usb stick as the root fs when it comes to longevity.
[14:49] <ducasse> also, transfer/write speed is pretty abysmal when both the network and usb is used at the same time.
[14:50] <BluesKaj> root on the usb is much safer tho, i have a spare hdd that i might try with it
[14:51] <ducasse> still the problem that ethernet and usb share the same bus
[15:04] <lotuspsychje> laterz guys working day tomorrow
[15:09] <BluesKaj> BBL...stuff to do for a couple hrs
[17:24] <baizon> well i guess its time to switch to kde :(
[17:31] <tgm4883> So no more Unity
[17:31] <tgm4883> https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
[17:31] <nacc> yep
[17:31] <ducasse> and no mir! \o/
[17:31] <OerHeks> i just read it, indeed
[17:31]  * nacc has been using ubuntu-gnome for a while anyways
[17:32] <OerHeks> mir is just a fork of wayland
[17:32] <GreeningGalaxy> That one I'm not too surprised about, I always thought it looked like they were underestimating how much work it would be to develop a new display server
[17:32] <GreeningGalaxy> but I assumed they were just going to fall back on wayland proper
[17:32] <nacc> and well, they needed buy-in from non-ubuntu
[17:32] <nacc> and that never came
[17:33] <tgm4883> So what am I supposed to use on my tablets now?
[17:33] <OerHeks> mint?
[17:33] <GreeningGalaxy> I suppose this is gonna be the final nail in the coffin for Ubuntu Mobile now, isn't it
[17:33] <tgm4883> OerHeks: oh god no?
[17:33] <nicomachus> what is happening
[17:33] <nicomachus> why
[17:33] <nicomachus> why would canonical do this to us
[17:33] <tgm4883> GreeningGalaxy: assuming you mean Ubuntu Touch, since Ubuntu Mobile isn't a thing, then yes
[17:34] <nacc> i mean, it sort of felt like ubuntu touch was failing anyways
[17:34] <nicomachus> yea
[17:34] <nacc> again, i don't know how it would work unless they could push android or ios
[17:34] <nacc> and they were never going to do that
[17:34] <nacc> not with just ubuntu phone/tablet
[17:34] <nacc> also, there's no $$ there
[17:35] <nacc> to be practical :)
[17:35] <tgm4883> I liked Unity :(
[17:35] <nicomachus> good lord, main channel is going to be dreadful today
[17:35] <GreeningGalaxy> yeah, everything that challenges android is getting wiped out, which is a damn shame because I loathe android with a burning passion
[17:35] <nacc> yep
[17:35] <nicomachus> "hey guys, have you heard the news!"
[17:35] <nicomachus> yes. yes we have. wrong channel.
[17:35] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: particular issue with android? or the google-ness of it?
[17:36] <GreeningGalaxy> mostly just that every time I try to do anything at all under the hood with Android, I go half mad.
[17:36] <nacc> well, the point is to not be under its hood, i assume :)
[17:36] <GreeningGalaxy> It seems engineered specifically to thwart attempts to fix its problems.
[17:36] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: right, so my question was more -- what problems?
[17:37] <tgm4883> I just want a good x86 tablet that I can use the touchscreen
[17:37] <immu_> https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
[17:37] <nicomachus> immu_: yes thanks we've all seen it
[17:37] <Pici> *gasp*
[17:37] <nacc> tgm4883: i use the touchscreen on my laptop :)
[17:37] <nacc> tgm4883: but no tablets here
[17:37] <immu_> it that a joke ?
[17:37] <nacc> immu_: is what a joke?
[17:37] <tgm4883> nacc: I mean as a primary device, as in without an attached keyboard/mouse
[17:37] <GreeningGalaxy> nacc: example: My dad wanted to get the music he'd downloaded to his phone through Google Play onto another device. Turns out, You Can't. Google Play Music hides everything in /data, which is not accessible without root.
[17:38] <nacc> tgm4883: right, it's a 2-in-1 so i can flip it around and it's basically that :)
[17:38] <nacc> tgm4883: but yeah
[17:38] <tgm4883> nacc: on screen keyboard?
[17:38] <immu_> the new that from 18.04 will revert back to Gnome?
[17:38] <GreeningGalaxy> Google hides *YOUR OWN FILES* on *YOUR OWN DEVICE* and won't let you access them.
[17:38] <nicomachus> GreeningGalaxy: well, that's a Google Play Music issue. Not Android.
[17:38] <nicomachus> immu_: no it's not a joke.
[17:38] <tgm4883> immu_: not a joke apparently
[17:38] <nacc> tgm4883: yeah, although i haven't used it recently (on 17.10)
[17:38] <nacc> *17.04
[17:38] <GreeningGalaxy> nicomachus: no, the issue is that there's even a place on your own phone that you can't access.
[17:38] <nicomachus> GreeningGalaxy: welcome to the world of proprietary software
[17:38] <nicomachus> it's been this way for a LONG time.
[17:38] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: well it has to be for the licensure, i'm sure
[17:38] <OerHeks> after ZZ ...
[17:39] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: and if you dislike the license rules, don't use google music
[17:39] <GreeningGalaxy> Not even Windows or OSX screw you that bad
[17:39] <nacc> presumably you agreed to the ToS
[17:39] <KamiRath> https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
[17:39] <nicomachus> thanks KamiRath, you are now the 4th person to link that here.
[17:39] <tgm4883> FFS can someone change the topic
[17:39] <KamiRath> thanks
[17:39] <KamiRath> good to know
[17:39] <KamiRath> should I pass the messag eon to the 5th person?
[17:39] <KamiRath> or will you be doing that? ;)
[17:39] <OerHeks> tgm4883, you can yourself, no?
[17:40] <tgm4883> OerHeks: I have no power here
[17:40] <dbugger> Im really surprised noone is talking about "Unity out. GNOME in"
[17:40] <nicomachus> dbugger: you have to just be trolling now
[17:40] <tgm4883> dbugger: what do you want us to say that hasn't already been said
[17:40] <GreeningGalaxy> I've not had a great experience with GNOME 3.X
[17:40] <GreeningGalaxy> I guess I'll give it another shot with this new development, but I'm not optimistic.
[17:41] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: interesting, i've found it pretty easy to use
[17:41] <GreeningGalaxy> Last time I tried it, it was inserting typos into everything I typed. It was completely nuts.
[17:41] <nacc> uh, that seems weird
[17:41] <nacc> never had anything even resembling that
[17:41] <tgm4883> I'm surprised that 18.04 is getting Gnome and not 17.10
[17:41] <nacc> and been running gnome ubuntu since ~15.10 on this lappy
[17:41] <nacc> tgm4883: well, it might happen in 17.10
[17:41] <nacc> but most users probably care about the lts upgrade path
[17:42] <tgm4883> nacc: I suppose that's true
[17:42] <nacc> tgm4883: just that it will definitely be done by 18.04 i think
[17:42] <GreeningGalaxy> Wasn't even a slow computer either, but every time I typed sort of fast, letters would start to appear out of order. I thought it was just me at first, but then I switched DEs and the problem vanished.
[17:42] <dbugger> Maybe I joined the channel way too late and was already over
[17:42] <brunch875> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/ubuntu-18-04-ship-gnome-desktop-not-unity#disqus_thread
[17:42] <brunch875> what the shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
[17:42] <dbugger> even though I thought that would be going all day ^^
[17:42]  * brunch875 is demolished
[17:42] <dbugger> there we go
[17:42] <dbugger> brunch875, is not joining my party
[17:42] <dbugger> ^^
[17:42] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: very strange, never had that
[17:43] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: sounds like a buggy keyboard
[17:43] <tgm4883> nacc: honestly it needs to be done before that if it's going to have wayland
[17:43] <nacc> tgm4883: yep
[17:43] <GreeningGalaxy> nacc: no, it didn't persist in any other DE or in the bare TTY, it was most certainly not my keyboard
[17:43] <nacc> tgm4883: i'm curious what the flow will be, but i'm also not involved on the desktop side
[17:43] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: very strange
[17:43] <GreeningGalaxy> That was like 3 years ago though, maybe it was just a one-time fluke
[17:44] <immu_> people have you also lost it, after reading that news
[17:44] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: ah yeah
[17:44] <nicomachus> !language | brunch875
[17:44] <nacc> GreeningGalaxy: pre-16.04 was a bit bad
[17:44] <nacc> immu_: no
[17:45] <OerHeks> immu_, between now and 18.04 anything can happen.
[17:45] <brunch875> sorry, sorry....
[17:45] <dbugger> Does it count, even with so many "i"s?
[17:45] <nicomachus> OerHeks: yea, they could trash 5 years of work on a whole DE
[17:45] <OerHeks> Nice stirr, Mark...
[17:45] <nacc> tbh, i'm surprised he was humble enough to admit defeat :)
[17:45] <nacc> maybe we'll see a little less fragmentation of the linux desktop world now
[17:45] <GreeningGalaxy> dbugger: probably, usually on IRC it counts if you even talk about swear words. I expect to be warned for the language in this message.
[17:45] <nicomachus> dbugger: "including acronyms and obfuscation of such"
[17:46] <dbugger> wow, talk about specifiticy
[17:46] <GreeningGalaxy> I think "swear word" counts as a swear word on IRC
[17:46] <OerHeks> nacc,  i would not be surprised that canonical and ubuntu split up.
[17:46] <nacc> OerHeks: i would be very surprised by that
[17:46] <nacc> OerHeks: canonical's branding is fully tied up in ubuntu
[17:47] <nacc> there isn't anything else, really
[17:47] <brunch875> I'm very sad to see the project flop
[17:47] <brunch875> on the other hand it's great the failure was admitted
[17:47] <tgm4883> Is Gnome 3 better now? Last I tried it (admittedly right after release) extensions were pretty bad
[17:47] <brunch875> nothing like not steering the wheel and sinking
[17:47] <nacc> tgm4883: i dont use very many extensions, but i can test a specific one if you want
[17:48] <tgm4883> Trying to decide if I should go from Kubuntu back to Mate or Gnome
[17:48] <OerHeks> Maybe this stirr is needed to activate the community.
[17:48] <OerHeks> finaly, we are back in the gossip again :-D
[17:49] <tgm4883> nacc: I don't remember any specifically, it's been a long time since gnome 3.0
[17:49] <brunch875> does that mean we're hopping to wayland?
[17:50] <tgm4883> brunch875: yes, but who knows when
[17:50]  * brunch875 sighs deeply
[17:50] <nacc> tgm4883: hrm, i can't get the osb to show up in gnome -- it does show up on the login iirc
[17:50] <brunch875> I was really looking forward do it
[17:51] <brunch875> although I've got to admit that the whole confinement just didn't feel right
[17:51]  * daftykins groans as he spies 3.13.0-116 up for install
[17:53] <tgm4883> brunch875: the confinement of MIR?
[17:53] <tgm4883> Hmm, so what happens to "Ubuntu Gnome"?
[17:54] <ducasse> the name will be six chars shorter?
[17:55] <brunch875> so unity7 dies too?
[17:55] <brunch875> I really like unity
[17:55] <nacc> tgm4883: i wonder if ubuntu gnome will still move ahead for now, 'pure gnome' ?
[17:55] <tgm4883> ducasse: I meant the whole team doing it
[17:56] <nacc> tgm4883: oh good question
[17:56] <brunch875> tgm4883: yeah and stuff such as application lifecycle
[17:57] <tgm4883> brunch875: it could live I suppose. It's been suggested (in reddit threads anyway) that it could be gnome extensions to give the same look and feel
[17:57] <tgm4883> brunch875: it won't be developed by canonical though
[17:57] <OerHeks> .. and unity is not dead yet..
[18:00] <brunch875> I wonder what's with snaps too then
[18:01] <tgm4883> brunch875: snaps should be fine
[18:01] <ducasse> brunch875: it says snaps will still be developed as part of the iot thing
[18:02] <brunch875> hopefully we get all of that in the desktop
[18:02] <brunch875> even without mir, the confinement + message passing sounds fantastic
[18:02] <tgm4883> brunch875: we already have it in the desktop...
[18:03] <brunch875> well yeah, using snapped hexchat right now
[18:03] <MichaelTunnell> ok so anything "interesting" to talk about today ;)
[18:03] <brunch875> what I mean is I wish the development to advance everywhere
[18:03] <GreeningGalaxy> The language of that post isn't entirely unambiguous. It could be that he means we're going back to GNOME-based Unity, not vanilla GNOME.
[18:04] <brunch875> GreeningGalaxy: That'd be for the best!
[18:04] <GreeningGalaxy> "We will shift our default Ubuntu desktop back to GNOME for Ubuntu 18.04 LTS." Could mean either "Unity is going to be based on GNOME again"
[18:04] <BluesKaj> well just saw this  https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
[18:04] <tgm4883> GreeningGalaxy: that's a good point
[18:04] <daftykins> i thought Unity always has been gnome underneath? :)
[18:04] <GreeningGalaxy> s/either//
[18:05] <tgm4883> daftykins: yes, but unity 8 wasn't
[18:05] <daftykins> ah ok
[18:05] <tgm4883> daftykins: and the post specifically talks about going back to Gnome and not funding unity 8 anymore
[18:05] <nacc> tgm4883: so i'm not able to get the on screen keyboard to consistently work, not sure hwy yet :)
[18:05] <daftykins> yeah i didn't follow desktop because i don't use it.
[18:06] <MichaelTunnell> GreeningGalaxy: interesting point, hadn't thought of that
[18:06] <tgm4883> Someone should get some clarification. popey can you ask Mark at the pub later ;)
[18:07] <popey> clarification of?
[18:07] <nicomachus> daftykins: how's that W10 working out for ya, though? :P
[18:07] <tgm4883> popey: whether we're going back to Gnome Shell, or Unity on top of Gnome
[18:07] <GreeningGalaxy> also " We will continue to produce the most usable open source desktop in the world," which notably says "desktop" and not "distribution" or "operating system"
[18:07] <tgm4883> popey: since the post is kinda unclear on that
[18:07] <popey> pass
[18:07] <tgm4883> lol
[18:07] <popey> you know as much as I do
[18:07] <daftykins> nicomachus: great thanks, as are my Loonix servers, since i'm in both camps - not just a fanboy
[18:08] <GreeningGalaxy> It looks like OMG!Ubuntu ran with "omg they're phasing out Unity" but that's not what the post looks like to me.
[18:08] <baizon> unity is dead
[18:08] <tgm4883> popey: yea, but you're both in the UK so aren't you all just meet at the pub after work?
[18:08] <tgm4883> baizon: not necessarily
[18:08]  * nicomachus blows a raspberry at daftykins
[18:08] <baizon> it is
[18:08] <popey> tgm4883: of course
[18:08] <baizon> no unity 8 and unity 7 :(
[18:08] <tgm4883> baizon: You have insider knowledge?
[18:09] <GreeningGalaxy> one way or another, I hope we at least see an new default icon theme because christ
[18:09] <baizon> tgm4883: developer left, and the blog is saying it, IoT and cloud
[18:09] <nicomachus> good lord, #ubuntu is requiring !ot every 30 secs
[18:09] <tgm4883> baizon: no, the blog says unity 8 is no longer being developerd
[18:09] <daftykins> nicomachus: hilariously i was looking at a clients iMac they can't stand, today ;)
[18:09] <tgm4883> baizon: it doesn't say anything about 7
[18:09] <nicomachus> daftykins: pick a side!
[18:10] <daftykins> nicomachus: nooo the only sane way is to see them all for what they are
[18:10] <daftykins> horses for courses!
[18:10] <nicomachus> yes. winners and losers!
[18:10] <daftykins> nah that attitude is pathetic.
[18:10] <GreeningGalaxy> baizon: it looks to me like the blog post is saying "Unity is returning to being a derivative of GNOME" not "All of Unity is being trashed and Ubuntu will ship with vanilla GNOME"
[18:11] <BluesKaj> as we say here in canucksville, unity makes no nevermind to me :-)
[18:11] <stevenh> @GreeningGalaxy: my reading was the latter. We're dropping unity and switching to GNOME Shell
[18:11] <stevenh> I would expect some ubuntu specific extensions in it though
[18:11] <GreeningGalaxy> stevenh: where do you see that in the post?
[18:12] <immu>  /join #ubuntu-discuss
[18:12] <stevenh> Instead of being a full vanilla GNOME
[18:12] <nicomachus> immu: you're already here, friendo
[18:12] <Azulflame> probably failed his copy-paste
[18:12] <daftykins> immu: it's ok, you're in
[18:12] <stevenh> "We will shift our default Ubuntu desktop back to GNOME for Ubuntu 18.04 LTS."    Because they say "default DESKTOP"
[18:12] <nicomachus> baizon, tgm4883: unity has to be supported until 2021 at least
[18:12] <stevenh> I know I'm reading into things though
[18:13] <stevenh> But because he mentions it as desktop I would expect it to be the full environment
[18:13] <ReimuHakurei> i imagine it'll be GNOME with changes to look more like Unity does
[18:13] <immu> i was trying to cpy paste the article
[18:13] <tgm4883> someone in #ubuntu-offtopic says they have a source inside canonical that says Unity is dead
[18:13]  * tgm4883 shrugs
[18:13] <immu> move to gnome
[18:13] <tgm4883> including 7
[18:13] <Azulflame> good riddance
[18:13] <baizon> gnome sucks
[18:13] <ReimuHakurei> i imagine the community will take it up
[18:14] <baizon> i love unity :(
[18:14] <nicomachus> tgm4883: they hve to support it though still
[18:14] <tgm4883> yea
[18:14] <stevenh> If unity 7 wasn't dead he would write they are switching dev effort to unity 7, not today's statement the default desktop is switching to GNOME
[18:14] <ReimuHakurei> i have some issues with Unity, but it's still one of the most usable DEs imo
[18:14] <GreeningGalaxy> lol, omgubuntu.co.uk is down for the count. I just got a page full of corrupted text.
[18:14] <stevenh> As an Apple refugee GNOME suits me, so I'm happy with the change
[18:14] <nicomachus> how long until we start seeing unity forks?
[18:14] <GreeningGalaxy> with a surprising number of telephones
[18:14] <ReimuHakurei> KDE5 (nice, but slooooooooooooooow), Unity, and Xfce4
[18:14] <Azulflame> I think that XFCE/Mate/KDE are the more usable DMs
[18:15] <GreeningGalaxy> nicomachus: zero seconds. There's probably one underway already
[18:15] <nicomachus> GreeningGalaxy: they're saying on twitter that they're overloaded.
[18:15] <Azulflame> I don't like Unity, but it's managable
[18:15] <GreeningGalaxy> ReimuHakurei: slow? I'm using it now on very old hardware and it's completely satisfactory.
[18:15] <GreeningGalaxy> KDE just has a bad rep for being slow from KDE4, which actually was slow.
[18:15] <ReimuHakurei> GreeningGalaxy: on high end hardware it feels slower than other DEs
[18:16] <Azulflame> KDE5 has bad screen tearing in VMs, but that's just the lack of videocard passthrough in my vbox
[18:16] <baizon> well but i think ill switch to kde :(
[18:16] <baizon> i hate gnome 3
[18:16] <ReimuHakurei> last time i tried Ubuntu on my main desktop (at the time, i5-2500K, R9 290X, 16GB RAM, 250GB Crucial MX200) it took several minutes to boot up
[18:16] <tgm4883> ha, I'm switching from KDE
[18:16] <Azulflame> baizon, did you like Gnome 2?
[18:16] <ReimuHakurei> vs Windows 8.1 taking about 10 seconds
[18:16] <nicomachus> baizon: MATE?
[18:16] <GreeningGalaxy> ReimuHakurei: oh, you're trying to run it with all the effects turned on arent you
[18:16] <daftykins> you don't need passthrough to eliminate tearing, with a decent driver in your virt tech surely.
[18:16] <baizon> Azulflame: yes
[18:16] <ReimuHakurei> GreeningGalaxy: stock.
[18:16] <Azulflame> baizon, try out MATE
[18:16] <baizon> ReimuHakurei: my ubuntu boots within 10 sec
[18:16] <ReimuHakurei> whatever kubuntu default was
[18:16] <Azulflame> It's very similar in feel and look, but runs really nice
[18:16] <GreeningGalaxy> ReimuHakurei: yeah, so with all the effects they enable by default.
[18:16] <baizon> Azulflame: i did
[18:16] <stevenh> What do people here who like unity dislike about gnome? It's not that different after some extensions...
[18:17] <stevenh> And the application stack is the same
[18:17] <nicomachus> BTW: this is the busiest I've ever seen this channel
[18:17] <GreeningGalaxy> ReimuHakurei: if you want it to be fast, disable everything in Desktop Behavior/Effects, and go to Display Settings and set animation speed to instant.
[18:17] <Azulflame> nicomachus, it just got plugged in #ubuntu
[18:17] <ReimuHakurei> GreeningGalaxy: the big issue was how badly it glitched out with the 290X
[18:17] <tgm4883> I like how there's two very active conversations about this in two separate channels
[18:17] <ReimuHakurei> it might be better now with the RX 480, but it's been a while since i gave it a whirl
[18:17] <nicomachus> Azulflame: I know, because everyone in #ubuntu is getting offtopic
[18:17] <Azulflame> so everything as normal?
[18:17] <nicomachus> but instead of pushing them to -offtopic, they got pushed here...
[18:17] <daftykins> tgm4883: what's the other channel?
[18:18] <nicomachus> daftykins: -ot
[18:18] <tgm4883> #ubuntu-offtopic
[18:18] <ReimuHakurei> i mean, this is ubuntu related
[18:18] <daftykins> ah well that's not the place for the on-topic discussion, that's just the cesspit :P
[18:18] <GreeningGalaxy> IANAO, this doesn't seem off-topic enough
[18:18] <tgm4883> it should be in this channel
[18:18] <BluesKaj> 0.
[18:18] <Munrek> stevenh: extensions are a pain in the ass to configure and are regularly broken. Unity is a top notch out of the box experience.
[18:18] <samfreenode> wtf Ubuntu is abandoning Unity?
[18:18] <nicomachus> daftykins: they're like 90% non-ubuntu users. haha
[18:18] <nicomachus> !language | samfreenode
[18:18] <OerHeks> grinn @omgubuntu Insane amount of traffic to the site right now has knocked us offline. We hope to be back up shortly.
[18:19] <Azulflame> wtf is considered bad language? really?
[18:19] <daftykins> nicomachus: :>
[18:19] <ReimuHakurei> nicomachus: wow, is wtf seriosuly considered 'bad language'?
[18:19] <immu> omgubuntu is up
[18:19] <ReimuHakurei> wow.
[18:19] <samfreenode> "abandoning"?
[18:19] <daftykins> Azulflame: well what you just typed isn't hugely welcome :)
[18:19] <nicomachus> Azulflame: "including acronyms and obfuscaion of such"
[18:19] <nicomachus> feel free to join #ubuntu-ops to complain
[18:19] <stevenh> @Munrek: I agree it's a pain. It got better though in the last versions. Hopefully canonical can help improve that experience
[18:20] <samfreenode> But Unity was Ubuntu's baby for years
[18:20] <samfreenode> omg
[18:20] <Munrek> stevenh: I have the feeling they are giving up on desktop
[18:20] <samfreenode> Why is Ubuntu going back to Gnome?
[18:20] <ReimuHakurei> samfreenode: money
[18:20] <nicomachus> samfreenode: mir
[18:20] <Azulflame> probably getting tired of developing a DE as well as an OS
[18:20] <samfreenode> nicomachus: Why is mir making them give up Unity?
[18:20] <ReimuHakurei> unity is likely costing a lot of money to develop, and ubuntu on the desktop is not the most popular use
[18:20] <samfreenode> So the Linux desktop is dead?
[18:20] <nicomachus> samfreenode: because mir is awful
[18:21] <ReimuHakurei> pretty sure ubuntu server is the num1 cloud OS right now
[18:21] <ducasse> samfreenode: mir was a pointless waste of effort
[18:21] <stevenh> Just imagine if all the effort that went into Mir and Unity 8 was put into Gnome + Wayland
[18:21] <immu> unity8 is comminng soooooooooooooon? which never came
[18:21] <ReimuHakurei> i still don't understand why it wasn't unity8+wayland
[18:21] <ReimuHakurei> why make mir instead?
[18:21] <Munrek> yeah but canonical is not willing to put that effort in gnome and wayland, not anymore
[18:21] <tgm4883> ReimuHakurei: doesn't matter, since it's dead now
[18:21] <ReimuHakurei> fair enough
[18:22] <KristijanZic> Guys, wtf is going on? What is happening with Ubuntu desktop? Is Mark serious? Will someone pick up Unity8 development?
[18:22] <samfreenode> KristijanZic: DONT SAY "WTF" OMG
[18:22] <ReimuHakurei> l o l .
[18:22] <nicomachus> KristijanZic: you won't be warned about language again.
[18:22] <daftykins> please, it's "oh my Tux" ;)
[18:22] <KristijanZic> sorry
[18:22] <ReimuHakurei> topkek
[18:22] <tgm4883> KristijanZic: no
[18:22] <Azulflame> this is a lot of speculation on Unity dying. Was there an official source?
[18:23] <KristijanZic> Oh my Tux, is he for real?
[18:23] <nicomachus> Azulflame: yes.
[18:23] <Fingel> back to gnome! like it's 2009
[18:23] <OerHeks> Nice stirr, Mark... ubuntu-spring
[18:23] <nicomachus> from Mark Shuttleworth blog post
[18:23] <tgm4883> Azulflame: nothing official
[18:23] <stevenh> @Azulflame: https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
[18:23] <kostkon> KristijanZic, it is real. Relax and give yourself some time to digest the "news"
[18:23] <Azulflame> THE KING IS DEAD. LONG LIVE THE KING!
[18:23] <ReimuHakurei> KristijanZic: Canonical is ceasing their development of Unity8 in favor of GNOME3, because they've realized that convergance with ubuntu (the long term plan for unity) isn't going to happen, and that focusing on servers is a better use of their limited resources.
[18:23] <Azulflame> -caps
[18:23] <BluesKaj> king kde
[18:23] <samfreenode> Why did Canonical invest so much in Unity and then abandon it
[18:24] <baizon> i dont understand it too
[18:24] <Azulflame> KDE can be a Bishop. LONG LIVE MATE
[18:24] <nicomachus> ugh, mate
[18:24] <Azulflame> samfreenode, It was never adopted to make it big
[18:24] <Azulflame> if they could start it up and let the community handle it, they would have
[18:24] <tgm4883> samfreenode: because of the sunk cost fallacy
[18:24] <ReimuHakurei> samfreenode: they thought it would succeed at convergance, but it didn't.
[18:25] <samfreenode> ReimuHakurei: What will we have to use for convergance now then?
[18:25] <Fingel> gnome3 can probably be made to look/act similarly to unity with just a few extensions
[18:25] <OerHeks> maybe the desktop is dead, robots are the future.. https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/04/nexiona-collaborates-with-canonical-and-dell-to-create-miimetiq-edge/
[18:25] <Fingel> unity was a mistake from the beginning
[18:25] <ReimuHakurei> samfreenode: convergance is probablty not going to happen to a real extent ever
[18:25] <samfreenode> ReimuHakurei: Why not?
[18:25] <ReimuHakurei> from what i've seen, the most usable one seems to be the new one on Samsung's phones
[18:25] <Azulflame> is wayland/mir/canonical's X replacement dead now?
[18:25] <Azulflame> whichever it was
[18:25] <ReimuHakurei> Azulflame: wayland isn't, mir probably is
[18:25] <tgm4883> ReimuHakurei: convergence works well enough on windows
[18:25] <Azulflame> mir was cononical?
[18:25] <nicomachus> Azulflame: they'll stick to wayland, hopefully.
[18:25] <BluesKaj> they're going the enterprise route like red hat
[18:25] <nicomachus> mir was all canonical and is now dead (thank tux)
[18:26] <ReimuHakurei> tgm4883: windows will be good when they get the x86 emu on arm working so you can use win32
[18:26] <stevenh> Maybe they'll also return to Xfree86!?
[18:26] <BluesKaj> slimming down , lean and mean
[18:26] <tgm4883> ReimuHakurei: you can get x86 tablets
[18:26] <ReimuHakurei> tgm4883: not for long
[18:26] <ReimuHakurei> intel ditched that product line
[18:26] <KristijanZic> linux is officially a monolithic system now :'( Only RedHat and forks :'(
[18:26] <tgm4883> ReimuHakurei: intel ditched their i5 line?
[18:26] <ReimuHakurei> tgm4883: no
[18:27] <ReimuHakurei> but the Atoms you find in most tablets
[18:27] <KristijanZic> time to start hacking a hackintosh
[18:27] <ReimuHakurei> Core M is suitable for tablets as well, but costs more than most consumers will pay
[18:27] <daftykins> the current Atom Apollo Lakes are quite capable
[18:27] <tgm4883> ReimuHakurei: which line are you talking about? I've got an i5 tablet from dell
[18:27] <ReimuHakurei> tgm4883: which one? Venue 11 Pro?
[18:27] <tgm4883> ReimuHakurei: yea
[18:27] <ReimuHakurei> is it the i5-4300Y one?
[18:27] <ReimuHakurei> i want one of those
[18:27] <ReimuHakurei> (Venue 11 Pro 7139)
[18:27] <tgm4883> yea that's the one
[18:28] <ReimuHakurei> you'll notice a lack of newer tablets similar to that model
[18:28] <ReimuHakurei> :/
[18:28] <nicomachus> 13:27 < johnjohn101> 18.04  name  =  GNOME GOTCHA
[18:28] <nicomachus> I like it
[18:28] <ReimuHakurei> just like those old 2in1s... my favorite was that old XPS one with the flipping screen inside a frame
[18:28] <Fingel> KristijanZic: how is linux monolithic? Theres like 50 DE's to choose from. Unity was just one of them
[18:28] <ReimuHakurei> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA60G5528727
[18:28] <tgm4883> Fingel: to channel RMS, Linux is a kernel
[18:28] <BluesKaj> 50? try 250
[18:29] <ReimuHakurei> i hate that dell nuked this one
[18:29] <ReimuHakurei> that imo was the best design
[18:29] <stevenh> I'm really wondering what will be the best GNOME distro
[18:29] <Fingel> tgm4883: yea I realize the original comment was bad to begin with, just replying in the same manner
[18:29] <ReimuHakurei> I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, systemd/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, systemd plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning systemd system made useful by the systemd corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
[18:30] <nicomachus> no copypasta please, we've seen it all before.
[18:30] <tgm4883> ReimuHakurei: don't give Redhat any ideas
[18:30] <nacc> lol
[18:30] <KristijanZic> Is someone going to pick up the development of Unity8 and Mir?
[18:30] <pavlos> and I was calling it GNU/linux
[18:30] <tgm4883> KristijanZic: I'm not
[18:30] <nacc> KristijanZic: that would be up to "someone" to do... how would we know?
[18:31] <ReimuHakurei> KristijanZic: i think unity8 is likely dead, but i think someone will pick up unity7
[18:31] <ReimuHakurei> mir is 100% dead i think
[18:31] <KristijanZic> Unity7 is inheritly bad just like gnome because of gtk
[18:31] <BluesKaj> well, I'm leaning more and more towards debian as my main OS
[18:31] <KristijanZic> Qt is the present and the near future
[18:32] <tgm4883> KristijanZic: yuck
[18:32] <ReimuHakurei> so unless someone ports unity8 to wayland...
[18:32] <ReimuHakurei> i dislike both tbh
[18:32] <ReimuHakurei> why are all crossplatform UI toolkits so bad?
[18:32] <matteo__> sure KristijanZic, with that change I'll go back to kde too
[18:32] <KristijanZic> ReimuHakurei: easier to develop from scratch than to port to wayland
[18:33] <tgm4883> BluesKaj: I've thought about that too, but everytime I do I can't come up with a good reason as to Why
[18:33] <ReimuHakurei> mm, tbh i have no idea the internals of mir/wayland/unity8
[18:33] <KristijanZic> matter__: I'll purchase a mac and install FreeBSD, Canonical lost me forever.
[18:34] <KristijanZic> matteo__ ^
[18:34] <nacc> wow, overreact much
[18:34] <ReimuHakurei> ...why would you buy apple hardware?
[18:34] <stevenh> lol FreeBSD? You think that's going to produce a stable feature rich desktop?
[18:34] <nicomachus> tgm4883: I like how ubottu answered you there.
[18:34] <ReimuHakurei> good luck w/ any hw support on freebsd
[18:34] <Azulflame> KristijanZic, we over at #archlinux will accept you
[18:34] <tgm4883> nicomachus: it's smart, but not very smart
[18:34] <BluesKaj> tgm4883, stability, excellent support, networking is easier without nm
[18:35] <ReimuHakurei> i switched from debian to ubuntu server on my servers
[18:35] <tgm4883> BluesKaj: TBF, I've not had stability issues or networking issues with nm
[18:35] <ReimuHakurei> ubuntu server is great
[18:35] <tgm4883> and support is pretty good on Ubuntu too
[18:35] <matteo__> i think i'll try kde neon
[18:36] <BluesKaj> tgm4883, i don't bother with nm or puleaudio and PIM and some other apps that are default
[18:36] <KristijanZic> stevenh: Well FreeBSD has a steady development and I hear that the someone is cashing convergence too (or just mobile interface, idk for sure), it has zfs and dtrace.
[18:37] <GreeningGalaxy> Convergence on FreeBSD? Dream on...
[18:37] <stevenh> KristijanZic: I think FreeBSD might be suitable for use on servers but not a desktop
[18:37] <ReimuHakurei> ^
[18:37] <ReimuHakurei> just because you can doesn't mean it's the best fit.
[18:37] <stevenh> KristijanZic: Especially if you want some non-free stuff like games, H264 codecs, proprietary drivers
[18:37] <Azulflame> you can install KDE on BSD
[18:38] <Azulflame> so it would be usable
[18:38] <GreeningGalaxy> what generation of KDE? 5?
[18:38] <KristijanZic> stevenh: there is an UbuntuBSD project, just needs to be revived imho.
[18:42] <satysin> hi
[18:42] <satysin> so that is some big news
[18:46] <nicomachus> yep.
[18:47] <matteo__> what about ubuntu phone users?
[18:48] <matteo__> what about ubuntu-sdk, phone app developers
[18:48] <nicomachus> get an android.
[18:48] <KristijanZic> matteo__: I have UbuntuPhone, I've learned the sdk etc and now I can trash it. So furious xD
[18:49] <matteo__> idem KristijanZic
[18:49] <nacc> KristijanZic: not different than any other early adopter choice
[18:49] <nacc> KristijanZic: there was no guarantee of success, afaict
[18:49] <matteo__> my trust is lost, I'm going to change completely, far away from canonical
[18:49] <nicomachus> why
[18:49] <nicomachus> because you couldn't recognize that it was a failing platform?
[18:49] <KristijanZic> nacc: I know but one can't escape a feeling of being scamed big.
[18:50] <blackflow> unity8, phone, convergence, mir..... wth, I had to re-check if any time zone on the planet is still at April 1st :)
[18:50] <jbicha> matteo__: Canonical has switched directions before - upstart to systemd, gnome2 to unity (Unity was controversial to a lot of people when introduced)
[18:51] <KristijanZic> matteo__: yup, in a few years they'll say they'll abandon the cloud too, better to stay away. I think juju is the first one to go
[18:51] <matteo__> yes but you can even use gnome if u want. Tomorrow i'll not be able to keep using my stuff, this is a big drop
[18:52] <matteo__> is not a change
[18:52] <matteo__> is dropping years of work to the trash
[18:52] <nacc> KristijanZic: FUD.
[18:52] <nacc> matteo__: what?
[18:53] <matteo__> i'm just telling this time is a change without leaving free choiches
[18:53] <jbicha> matteo__: that happened before with upstart and with gnome2
[18:54] <nacc> matteo__: what do you mean? unity8 was never released
[18:54] <sveinse> so? I'm working in a fairly large company, and it happens from time to time that big changes must be made and everyone wished it didn't have so big cost sunk into it... Move on, future will come anyways
[18:54] <nacc> matteo__: so you had to *opt* into using an unreleased project
[18:56] <matteo__> nope. You had choiches to use kde, mate gnome OR unity. THis thime you cannot choose Gnome OR unity. It's different.
[18:57] <BernhardPosselt> hi, is this a joke or for real https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/04/05/1812232/canonical-killing-unity-for-ubuntu-linux-will-switch-to-the-superior-gnome
[18:57] <matteo__> and camon, I'm talking about all the related stuff, it will include also unity 7, ubuntu phone and others things that will not exist anymore. If you want upstart go use it, or you cannot?
[18:58] <matteo__> superior my ass
[18:59] <nacc> matteo__: what area you talking bout?
[18:59] <nacc> matteo__: kde mate gnome are all still available
[18:59] <BernhardPosselt> i mean i like gnome better but this sounds a bit weird :D
[18:59] <nacc> matteo__: and no upstart is no longer available in ubuntu
[19:00] <BernhardPosselt> next ubuntu people are going to drop mir
[19:00] <blackflow> BernhardPosselt: they are, according to phoronix.
[19:00] <matteo__> nacc its not hard to understand. Drop is a thing, change is another. When they passed to unity gnome is not dead. This time unity and all related stuff will dead
[19:01] <tgm4883> matteo__: no, it's just not developed by canonical anymore...
[19:01] <blackflow> Unity was the only reason I tried out and liked Ubuntu. If Ubuntu switches back to Gnome, I'll have no reason to use it over, say, Debian testing.
[19:02] <nacc> matteo__: i don't know what you're talking about
[19:02] <nacc> matteo__: unity8 is what is being dropped by canonical for ubuntu
[19:02] <nacc> blackflow: no one is stopping you
[19:03] <matteo__> i use ubuntu 10 years, i know about that changes. I love Unity. I found GNOME SHELL ugly and unusable without first installing a lot of third party bad mainteined extensions
[19:03] <BernhardPosselt> mir was probably secretely meant to push wayland devs
[19:04] <matteo__> and from what i know, kubuntu, ubuntu mate and other derivates are not stable as the main release. So i know tha if i'll want stability i'll have to choose ubuntu gnome, or switch far away from canonical
[19:04] <KristijanZic> life sucks (excuse my lang)
[19:05] <tgm4883> matteo__: Why wouldn't they be stable?
[19:05] <matteo__> hahahaha yeah
[19:05] <ivan> matteo__: it's the same distribution, different package selection
[19:05] <matteo__> i'm not going to cry, i'll drink some extra beers
[19:06] <BernhardPosselt> im already drinking xD
[19:06] <matteo__> good :D
[19:06] <BernhardPosselt> to a bright future :D
[19:06] <BernhardPosselt> although im probably in the wrong chat here :D
[19:06] <daftykins> drink 'til the penguin is attractive
[19:07] <daftykins> in terms of the DE that is, not any tastes for animals :P
[19:07] <ducasse> if M starts looking good it's time to stop :)
[19:08] <ducasse> *MATE
[19:08] <daftykins> XD
[19:09] <matteo__> never used Mate gtk3, if i'm not wrong i used mate 1.4/1.6 in the past and was a pain in the ass
[19:09] <OerHeks> back to kde i guess ..
[19:09] <nicomachus> MATE isn't fun. I don't like it much. But it's the best option for the raspberry pi right now
[19:09] <daftykins> desktop on a Pi o0 wat
[19:10] <matteo__> for me gnomeshell is a desperated choice, i mean you can't even refresh your wifi connection without an extension, that today works and tomorrow not
[19:11] <nicomachus> daftykins: gotta run that Plex client
[19:11] <BernhardPosselt> matteo__: been using gnome for years now and never had wifi issues
[19:11] <matteo__> who told that i had wifi issues
[19:11] <matteo__> pay attention ;)
[19:12] <sveinse> matteo__: what? cant refresh wifi connection? I run gnome shell on 16.04, and I have no such problems. Nor have I installed an extension for it
[19:12] <daftykins> nicomachus: Kodi + Plex addon on LibreELEC = done
[19:12] <BernhardPosselt> what do you mean with refresh wifi then
[19:12] <nacc> matteo__: i feel like you're full of FUD :)
[19:12] <nacc> matteo__: your single experience is not somehow a global assessment of a project
[19:12] <BernhardPosselt> pick up new ssids?
[19:12] <nicomachus> daftykins: and what if I wanna throw a YouTube video up on the big screen?
[19:12]  * nacc roams without issue
[19:13] <daftykins> nicomachus: i use browser addons 'sent to kodi' or on the Nexus 5x i have the Kore remote installed so i select 'send to' -> Kodi and it plays
[19:13] <daftykins> *send to kodi
[19:13] <matteo__> i mean that https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/905/refresh-wifi-connections/
[19:13] <matteo__> maybe you have that installed if you can refresh your wifi
[19:13] <BernhardPosselt> im currently using arch and fedora and software seems to work better than on ubuntu, maybe thats the issue matteo__ :D
[19:13] <nicomachus> daftykins: you aren't in lotus are you?
[19:13] <daftykins> nah not right now
[19:13] <daftykins> too many channels++
[19:13] <nicomachus> squoosh?
[19:14] <BernhardPosselt> matteo__: ssids are refreshed in 5-10 seconds usually
[19:14] <daftykins> yip
[19:14] <nacc> matteo__: i do not have it installed and it refreshes automatically
[19:14] <nacc> (17.04 here)
[19:15] <matteo__> idg a fk. i want to tefresh manually and i cannot without that third party extension. You cannot switch your audio channels without another extension.....at the end you need 20/30 extensions to have a normal desktop, that remain ugly
[19:15] <satysin> I wonder if 17.10 will ship with GNOME as well as Unity 7?
[19:15] <matteo__> sorry for my english guys
[19:15] <satysin> Seems risky to jump to GNOME for an LTS
[19:15] <BernhardPosselt> you should not have to refresh manually since it refreshes automatically
[19:15] <matteo__> satysin, good point
[19:15] <BernhardPosselt> very quickly
[19:16] <BernhardPosselt> as for switching audio channels: what do you mean exactly?
[19:16] <sveinse> matteo__: I think it's fine with extensions. Alternative is KDE which is *bloated* since it ships with everything
[19:17] <matteo__> google is your friend https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/295/switch-output-audio-devices/
[19:17] <jbicha> satysin: it's less risky than jumping to unity8 honestly since most Linux distros have shipped gnome3 for years
[19:18] <satysin> jbicha agreed, however it is still a big change and for an LTS it seems strange
[19:18] <satysin> previously ubuntu have held off on doing big changes in an LTS
[19:18] <jbicha> that's why the announcement is now so things can be worked on for 17.10 which is not an LTS
[19:18] <sveinse> I like gnome3. I run stock 16.04 version with one (1) extension, frippery bottom panel. #happycamper
[19:18] <BernhardPosselt> i thought LTSs were intentionally introducing big changes
[19:18] <BernhardPosselt> because you are stuck with them for another 2 years
[19:19] <daftykins> *5 years
[19:20] <matteo__> sveinse, nope, check with synaptic, search all extensions installed ;)
[19:21] <BernhardPosselt> the only thing that bugs me is that opening multiple apps is a bit time consuming but im usually using keyboard shortcuts for that
[19:21] <sveinse> matteo__: tweak tool sais I have two extensions installed, frippery bottom panel and multi monitor addons (disabled).
[19:22] <nicomachus> BernhardPosselt: ubuntu usually introduces new things the release after an LTS
[19:22] <matteo__> why not KDE? I would like to hear what do you think about it
[19:22] <nicomachus> so 16.10
[19:22] <matteo__> ok sveinse, try to switch audio channel or manually refresh the wifi
[19:22] <matteo__> you cannot
[19:22] <BernhardPosselt> matteo__: i tried to use kde 4.x seriously a few times
[19:23] <BernhardPosselt> 4.2, all the way up to 4.9
[19:23] <BernhardPosselt> always full of bugs
[19:23] <matteo__> i used 3 too, was very ugly lol
[19:23] <BernhardPosselt> really annoying ones
[19:23] <matteo__> yep
[19:23] <matteo__> agree
[19:23] <BernhardPosselt> then i gave up
[19:23] <matteo__> specially the korganizer, kmail
[19:23] <BernhardPosselt> never used kde since
[19:24] <BluesKaj> depends on the themes you chose ..not cartooney like gnome, that fugly IMO
[19:24] <matteo__> my eyes loved kde 5 plasma
[19:24] <matteo__> but never used seriusly
[19:25] <matteo__> so idk
[19:25] <sveinse> I remember when unity came, when hitting the windows key (or whatever it is called in linux) and being able to read the popup text from the moon / or when drunk...
[19:26] <BernhardPosselt> yeah i gave up styling gnome at some point
[19:28] <KristijanZic> This is for farewell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHG2oizTlpY
[19:28] <daftykins> nasty :P
[19:29] <OerHeks> oh, no rick-roll
[19:30] <alkisg> (09:43:39 μμ) KristijanZic: alkisg: How is that in any universe a great news? :'( => less diff from debian means better code quality, less bugs, easier patches etc
[19:30] <alkisg> I only wish that gnome would still ship a non-compositing environment so that MATE wouldn't be needed either
[19:31] <KristijanZic> alkisg: Debian is just bending over to RedHat, there is no freedom anymore here
[19:31] <seo> lol.
[19:31] <alkisg> KristijanZic: debian is a distro, it's not upstream development
[19:31] <alkisg> Of course they need to follow upstream
[19:32] <seo> spot on, systemd hater ;)
[19:32] <matteo__> alkisg, theres windows and apple for thi king of thins. ALL THE SAME ;)
[19:32] <matteo__> this kind*
[19:33] <matteo__> https://twitter.com/L4r1k4/status/849680323432656905
[19:33] <matteo__> maybe my cat caused it
 alkisg: Debian is just bending over to RedHat, there is no freedom anymore here
[19:46] <DArqueBishop> If your comment was any more dramatic it'd win an acting award.
[19:47] <nicomachus> lol
[19:48] <KristijanZic> xd
[19:52] <immu> can i use foul language
[19:52] <daftykins> not in here no, but you can use fowl language
[19:52] <daftykins> damned birds!
[19:53] <nicomachus> PIGEON
[19:53] <daftykins> ;D
[19:53] <nicomachus> STORK
[19:53] <immu> i am still shocked by this unity news
[19:53] <nicomachus> CA-CAAAWWWW
[19:53] <immu> my head is still spinning over the news
[19:53] <immu> RIP unity8
[19:53] <nicomachus> good riddance
[19:55] <immu> from #ubuntu they are sending everyone here
[19:56] <ducasse> because #ubuntu is for technical support
[19:56] <DArqueBishop> I tend to agree with nicomachus. Personally, I hated Unity.
[19:56] <nicomachus> and getting all suicidal over a DE isn't technical support
[19:56] <nicomachus> that's psychological support
[19:56] <nicomachus> we can't do that either
[20:00] <immu> goodnite
[20:25] <curiousx> omg, i'm about to cry guys :'(
[20:26] <nicomachus> you'll live
[20:26] <matteo__> lol
[20:26] <curiousx> i remember using the first unity on my (I believe) Ubuntu 11.04
[20:26] <matteo__> do not cry, drink!!
[20:26] <curiousx> xD good idea
[20:26] <daftykins> best to only look forwards in the technology world
[20:26] <nacc> wow, i had no idea anyone cared this much about anything
[20:27] <curiousx> It was unstable as heck, everybody seems to hate Unity at that time, but i loved it ='(
[20:27] <matteo__> me too
[20:28] <OerHeks> it is not dead at all. that is what i read.
[20:28] <matteo__> :O
[20:28] <curiousx> OerHeks: great, most likely the comunity will keep it alive
[20:29] <curiousx> Although, to be honest i'm a WM user since, idk, a year or so, i use i3 wm, does anyone else in here uses a WM ?
[20:30] <imbezol> personally i can't believe it took this long. always absolutely hated unity.
[20:30] <imbezol> hope to see fully support gnome and kde versions
[20:32] <nacc> imbezol: huh? gnome ubuntu and kubuntu are "fully supported"
[20:32] <curiousx> imbezol: Well yeah, i think that will be the good part of this, being Gnome its default shell, they'll contribute more to gnome shell i think
[20:33] <matteo__> imbezol, agree for the kde part
[20:33] <imbezol> nacc: getting the users off unity will mean a lot more users actually contributing to bug reports and usability reports on the other desktop
[20:34] <nacc> imbezol: sure, but i don't know what you mean by "fully support gnome and kde versions"
[20:34] <imbezol> it's getting back to a good state now.. but there have been pretty sketchy kde offerings
[20:34] <nacc> imbezol: users are already free to not be off unity
[20:34] <imbezol> kde was not what i would call production for quite a while
[20:34] <imbezol> and didn't they even drop kubuntu for a short time?
[20:34] <imbezol> i seem to recall the community picked it up
[20:35] <platzhirsch> What does that all mean? Gnome 3?
[20:35] <platzhirsch> I don't get it
[20:36] <matteo__> i used opensuse and kde here is very stable
[20:37] <BernhardPosselt> matteo__: but then you have to use opensuse :D
[20:37] <BernhardPosselt> yast *cough*
[20:37] <matteo__> maybe
[20:37] <nacc> also, just so much FUD! again, one user (even if it's your) experience does not define a distribution.
[20:37] <nacc> and it's all opinions and fluff so far in all the complaints and hand-wringing
[20:38] <nacc> the only legitimate point i've seen so far has been about the phone side and ending convergence
[20:38] <nacc> but i think the writing was on the wall for that
[20:38] <BernhardPosselt> microsoft gave up
[20:38] <BernhardPosselt> mozilla gave up
[20:38] <matteo__> yeah nacc my opinion matters to me ;)
[20:38] <BernhardPosselt> android surpassed windows
[20:39] <imbezol> my beef with opensuse is that the attempt to abstract absolutely everything. if you want to open a port you have to learn how they cobbled together a firewall system instead of just using iptables
[20:39] <imbezol> i like to keep it simple
[20:39] <BernhardPosselt> imbezol: same here
[20:39] <BernhardPosselt> you cant use the kde settings
[20:39] <imbezol> their entire init system is such a mess of scripts.. can't stand it
[20:39] <BernhardPosselt> you need to do it over yast
[20:39] <imbezol> yup
[20:39] <DArqueBishop> I doubt Microsoft "gave up". Mobile is far too important of a market. Chances are they're just working quietly on a new OS while letting the failure that is Windows Phone die.
[20:40] <imbezol> but... i believe it's the most popular distro across the pond so, must be some good to it too
[20:40] <BernhardPosselt> DArqueBishop: they basically killed off all developer investment
[20:40] <BernhardPosselt> even if they come out with something new, no one would want to develop for it
[20:40] <imbezol> still think gentoo and arch have/had the best init systems there ever were.. but they fall flat on reliable updates
[20:41] <matteo__> well i do not go so deeper in desktop distros, i just use my desktop to do my work, so i just need usability and stability
[20:41] <BernhardPosselt> arch works pretty fine :)
[20:41] <imbezol> ubuntu's pretty decent imo. fairly clean setup
[20:41] <imbezol> little more too it with systemctl
[20:41] <BernhardPosselt> from time to time you need to execute some commands which are listed in their news blog
[20:41] <curiousx> I do use Arch Linux since 1 year and a half
[20:41] <imbezol> i like Arch.. but you run into road blocks that have you looking for the solution fairly often
[20:42] <curiousx> formely ubunu user :p
[20:42] <BernhardPosselt> imbezol: like?
[20:42] <imbezol> i really haven't had anything like that from ubuntu in ages
[20:42] <imbezol> BernhardPosselt: just open archlinux.org to see the latest
[20:42] <imbezol> front page.. this is broke.. that's brokee.. etc
[20:43] <imbezol> says something when it opens straight to the bug page
[20:43] <BernhardPosselt> check the date :)
[20:43] <platzhirsch> das So Gnome 3 for 18.04? But with other colors or what
[20:43] <nacc> platzhirsch: how would we know?
[20:43] <imbezol> 20170307 ?
[20:43] <nacc> platzhirsch: it was announced a handful of hours ago and nothing has changed officially yet
[20:43] <BernhardPosselt> its like 5-10 commands in a year that you need to run in order to keep up to date
[20:43] <nacc> platzhirsch: also 18.04 isn't even open yet, so just wait
[20:43] <platzhirsch> I can't.. this is insane.
[20:43] <imbezol> anyways... i did like arch.. but they occasionally did things that needed "manual intervention"
[20:43] <matteo__> nope, no color, b&w becouse will be a sad distro
[20:43] <platzhirsch> insanity
[20:44] <imbezol> and some things that were almost show stoppers
[20:44] <nacc> platzhirsch: what is insane?
[20:44] <platzhirsch> Black and white, oh my god
[20:44] <nacc> why does everyone overreact to this news?
[20:44] <platzhirsch> probably not even grayscale
[20:44] <BernhardPosselt> nacc: because it sounds too good to be true
[20:44] <imbezol> platzhirsch: the news i have read didn't give any details
[20:44] <platzhirsch> Biggest regression ever
[20:45] <BernhardPosselt> unity might have been a nice desktop but mir should not exist :D
[20:45] <matteo__> :D
[20:45] <platzhirsch> So, hopes are that open source contributions will now focus more on Gnome 3 and make it actually usable
[20:45] <BernhardPosselt> platzhirsch: exactly
[20:45] <curiousx> imbezol: Well, idk, i only can tell you that i love Arch, i switched from Ubuntu to cause a post on /r/unixporn, this post: http://imgur.com/a/icEfK
[20:45] <nacc> FUD. I (and others) use Gnome 3 plenty
[20:45] <nacc> please stop trying to make it seem like everythign else than Unity was terrible
[20:45] <nacc> it's dumb and FUDdy
[20:45] <BernhardPosselt> gnome 3 is nice but i want ubuntu helping out
[20:45] <curiousx> Ubuntu to Arch cause...
[20:46] <BernhardPosselt> i want ubuntu to focus on wayland to get good driver support
[20:46] <imbezol> platzhirsch: try kubuntu.. find out the other 90% of linux you've been missing
[20:46] <platzhirsch> imbezol: KDE is ridicilious
[20:46] <drumbug1> curiousx - then why are you in #ubuntu-discuss?  Is there an #arch-discuss?
[20:46] <imbezol> that spelling is ridicilious
[20:46] <imbezol> :D
[20:46] <platzhirsch> I know
[20:46] <platzhirsch> Oh the irony
[20:46] <BernhardPosselt> drumbug1: #archlinux-offtopic :)
[20:47] <platzhirsch> KDE has never evolved beyond KDE 3 unfortuantely, it still has this blueish hackerspace feel to it. Same with Gnome 23
[20:47] <platzhirsch> 3
[20:47] <nacc> again, opinions stated as facts
[20:47] <nacc> so annoying
[20:47] <nacc> this is not "high quality"
[20:47] <curiousx> drumbug1: i'm also in #archlinux, and many other places, just came here to discuss about Unity -.-
[20:48] <matteo__> you can even install unity in arch
[20:48] <imbezol> is there a channel for ubuntu discussion where there aren't a bunch of people who's sole reason for being there is to tell people what they are and are not allowed to discuss?
[20:48] <BernhardPosselt> imbezol: use your irc client
[20:48] <platzhirsch> yeah Arch Linux,.. that would be a great option if I wouldn't have anything else to do the whole day
[20:49] <BernhardPosselt> to solve the issue :D
[20:49] <curiousx> matteo__: you can, but it buggy (That is what they say, never tried it)
[20:49] <matteo__> imbezol, yeah. go there, say that....LOL
[20:49] <BernhardPosselt> platzhirsch: personally i think it's even less work intensive than ubuntu
[20:49] <BernhardPosselt> and a bit more than debian stable
[20:49] <platzhirsch> Oh, is it.
[20:49] <matteo__> imbezol, guess they are not used to listen other peole ideas
[20:49] <platzhirsch> well, I always assumed you need to configure more
[20:49] <BernhardPosselt> ubuntu tends to not backport bugfixes
[20:50] <BernhardPosselt> and dist-upgrades are time intensive
[20:50] <BernhardPosselt> platzhirsch: you set it up once and then its near 0 maintenance
[20:50] <drumbug1> I'll tell the next noob that asks to use Arch instead of Ubuntu because according to this group it's "less work" /s
[20:51] <BernhardPosselt> im unsure if its the right distro for a noob
[20:51] <imbezol> i don't think it's even about experienced vs noob to be honest
[20:51] <platzhirsch> so Arch itself doesn't solve the Desktop question
[20:51] <nacc> BernhardPosselt: FUD!
[20:51] <imbezol> i think it's about willingness to fiddle and fix
[20:51] <imbezol> ubuntu just works.. consistently
[20:51] <nacc> BernhardPosselt: "ubuntu tends to not backport bugfixes"
[20:51] <imbezol> arch requires some time to finagle it into working
[20:51] <BernhardPosselt> nacc: they focus on security fixes only
[20:52] <nacc> BernhardPosselt: no, they don't.
[20:52] <BernhardPosselt> so things like audio drivers stay broken
[20:52] <nacc> BernhardPosselt: you might be confusing the security team with "ubuntu"
[20:52] <BernhardPosselt> thats why i actually migrated off ubuntu :D
[20:52] <matteo__> imbezol, yeah. My ubuntu 1604lts with unity just rocks
[20:52] <curiousx> BernhardPosselt: you went Arch to Ubuntu ?
[20:52] <BernhardPosselt> ubuntu to arch
[20:52] <curiousx> Oh!, ok ok
[20:52] <BernhardPosselt> but that was like 4 years ago so i dont know how things are now
[20:53] <nacc> right, so why even say that?
[20:53] <nacc> just ridiculous
[20:53] <curiousx> Are quite good pal
[20:53]  * drumbug1 wonders what the ratio of arch to ubuntu users in this room is....
[20:53] <imbezol> 1 to everyone else?
[20:53] <BernhardPosselt> i mean fedora is fine too although closed source is a big hassle
[20:54] <drumbug1> BernhardPosselt and curiousx both so far. :)
[20:54] <curiousx> drumbug1: idk but conect to #archlinux, you'll see like 1700-1800 users
[20:54] <curiousx> little bit less than #ubuntu
[20:54] <drumbug1> I don't want to talk about arch.  That's why I'm in #ubuntu-discuss :-)
[20:54] <BernhardPosselt> i thought this was an offtopic channel :D
[20:54] <BernhardPosselt> so anything goes
[20:55] <DArqueBishop> It's an Ubuntu discussion channel.
[20:55] <Ben64> that would be the offtopic channel
[20:55] <Ben64> this is -discuss
[20:55] <DArqueBishop> The offtopic channel is #ubuntu-offtopic.
[20:55] <BernhardPosselt> oh, interesting
[20:55] <drumbug1> "This is a channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions about Ubuntu"
[20:55] <nacc> or just read the topic
[20:55] <nacc> be a reasonably good netizen
[20:55] <BernhardPosselt> my bad then :)
[20:55] <drumbug1> the "on-topic" means ON-TOPIC
[20:55] <matteo__> DArqueBishop, we are all talking about ubuntu, comparing it to other distros.
[20:56] <imbezol> it will be interesting to see the results of running a main desktop manager that's in line with other distros
[20:56] <imbezol> may lead to more rapid feature inclusion
[20:57] <imbezol> plus with ubuntu's userbase.. i was sad to see them take all those users out of the pool when they went to unity
[20:57] <BernhardPosselt> i suppose things might get better for both sides
[20:57] <Ben64> you don't have to use unity to use ubuntu
[20:57] <curiousx> Yeah! at that time, Mint comunity grew like heck :p
[20:57] <Ben64> too bad mint is awful
[20:57] <imbezol> i think the alt-
[20:57] <BernhardPosselt> ubuntu devs will improve gnome and dont have to maintain unity on their own
[20:58] <imbezol> i think the alt-ubuntu versions probably grew too
[20:58] <drumbug1> agree
[20:58] <matteo__> yeah i bet too ubuntu is losing a lot with that move
[20:58] <BernhardPosselt> maintaining software is hard and so is fixing bugs
[20:59] <curiousx> And so i guess Wayland will lead \m/-_-\m/
[20:59] <BernhardPosselt> if people like unity they will surely continue to work on it or fork it
[21:00] <curiousx> BernhardPosselt: yup, that's the beautifullness of free software (as in freedom, not beer RMS)
[21:02] <Menzador> I still can't believe my eyes about Ubuntu going back to GNOME.
[21:02] <curiousx> Menzador: xD
[21:02] <BernhardPosselt> the thing is mir should have died long ago
[21:03] <Menzador> Agreed. However, Unity was an awesome concept.
[21:03] <BernhardPosselt> so it felt like ubuntu is determined to keep it
[21:03] <BernhardPosselt> then all of a sudden ubuntu drops mir and unity
[21:04] <BernhardPosselt> and april 1st was in reach
[21:04] <imbezol> everyone knows mir crashes back to earth
[21:04] <BernhardPosselt> lol
[21:04] <Menzador> So for 17.10, are we still shipping Unity 7?
[21:04] <nacc> Menzador: 17.10 isn't open yet, so unclear
[21:04] <imbezol> i would be surprised if unity wasn't in 18.04 as an option
[21:04] <Menzador> nacc: Fair enough.
[21:05] <Menzador> What would be cool is a niche fork
[21:05] <nacc> imbezol: i would be surprised if it was, it owuld mean support until 2023 for unity
[21:05] <platzhirsch> yeah
[21:05] <imbezol> nacc: there's lots of stuff that's not really supported
[21:05] <platzhirsch> just looked at Gnome 3, again oh god
[21:05] <nacc> imbezol: i don't know what you're talking about
[21:06] <imbezol> nacc: you can install enlightenment or openbox in 16.04
[21:06] <nacc> and those are supported
[21:06] <Menzador> Now that Bodhi forked Enlightenment we could have "Ebuntu"
[21:06] <curiousx> i liked Unity, all its version, but i always liked me more gnome shell
[21:07] <imbezol> nacc: so you're telling me that every piece of software in the repo is supported?
[21:07] <platzhirsch> There's also Cinnamon. Wow, where do all these distros take their color palette from
[21:07] <nacc> imbezol: yes
[21:07] <imbezol> nacc: what kind of support are you talking about?
[21:07] <nacc> imbezol: you can file bugs, and if someone cares to fix it, they will
[21:07] <platzhirsch> Yes, let's make it green, we're in the matrix. No, we're blue, hackers live forever
[21:07] <nacc> just like any other open source project
[21:07] <BernhardPosselt> imbezol: did you read https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/15001/enlightened
[21:07] <imbezol> nacc: so you don't think that'll be the case for unity?
[21:08] <nacc> imbezol: i don't know, it's in main currently, so i think it will drop from there to universe, at least
[21:08] <OerHeks> supported is a wide range, canonical supported, community supported ..
[21:08] <nacc> if i had to guess
[21:08] <imbezol> nacc: i would be super surprised if unity is not in the repo of 18.04
[21:08] <nacc> OerHeks: good point
[21:08] <implite> why cant we get a version that has multiple gui that we can choose from that offer more support for other interfaces?
[21:08] <nacc> imbezol: you're right, it might be in the repo
[21:09] <imbezol> implite: they're all like that
[21:09] <nacc> implite: we have that already with the desktop metapackages
[21:09] <tgm4883> implite: we have that already
[21:09] <implite> ah ok im a noob
[21:09] <implite> lol
[21:09] <drumbug1> imbezol: I think if unity is dropped from 18.04 the official line will be "we're supporting Unity on 16.04 until 2021"
[21:09] <imbezol> drumbug1: yeah exactly
[21:10] <imbezol> it's not like they're going to delete the git when 18.04 comes out :D
[21:10] <drumbug1> that "spin" makes it sound like they aren't leaving unity users in the dust (though they are!)
[21:10] <drumbug1> imbezol: right!  :)
[21:10] <tgm4883> drumbug1: spin?
[21:10] <BernhardPosselt> however motivation to work on it will be low
[21:10] <drumbug1> I don't mean anything negative... just saying that's how press releases are written
[21:10] <Menzador> Lol, what is this, Fedora? :)
[21:10] <BernhardPosselt> since it will all be dropped anyways
[21:10] <curiousx> ok guys, nice to discuss here, cya
[21:10] <platzhirsch> They're going to anihilate every trace of Unity.
[21:10] <platzhirsch> That's what's going to happen
[21:11] <drumbug1> well... i haven't checked the license... but i'm guessing it's a license that will allow a fork and it will show up somewhere other than launchpad
[21:11] <BernhardPosselt> should be easy since its all CLAd right?
[21:12] <drumbug1> ..so I wouldn't call that annihilated.
[21:12] <platzhirsch> Maybe, or maybe everything will be locked down with copyright and deleted.
[21:12] <platzhirsch> Who knows. Nothing is certain anymore.
[21:12] <BernhardPosselt> platzhirsch: you shouldnt be so negative :)
[21:13] <Menzador> We'll just have to wait and see.
[21:13] <platzhirsch> :(
[21:13] <imbezol> you're likely using gnome for half of what you do already anyways
[21:13] <platzhirsch> imbezol: you're not my real mom
[21:14] <drumbug1> according to https://launchpad.net/unity it's GPL, LGPL
[21:14] <Menzador> I'm not. I'm on Ubuntu MATE. MATE forked ALL of GNOME 2.
[21:14] <drumbug1> so they can't "copyright and delete"
[21:14] <platzhirsch> Canonical is powerful.
[21:14] <matteo__> canonical chooses ROS, cloud and IOT....and leaves unity.....this is the rise of the machines starting? ;)
[21:14] <platzhirsch> Okay I stop now, sorry, I am in a funny mood.
[21:14] <drumbug1> platzhirsh: ....?
[21:14] <platzhirsch> Everything will be fine, in general I appreciate change like this.
[21:14] <platzhirsch> Changes the powerlaw
[21:15] <platzhirsch> As long as it's Linux, and I am on a ThinkPad and not Mac, everything is well..
[21:16] <matteo__> w540 here ;)
[21:16] <OerHeks> matteo__, yes, meet MIIMETIQ Edge >>  https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/04/nexiona-collaborates-with-canonical-and-dell-to-create-miimetiq-edge/
[21:16] <imbezol> w530 beside me
[21:17] <imbezol> Hostname: destrier - OS: Linux 4.4.0-62-generic/x86_64 - Distro: Ubuntu 16.04.2 LTS - CPU: 8 x Intel Core i7-3630QM (1795.031 MHz) - Processes: 319 - Uptime: 8d 6h 41m - Users: 2 - Load Average: 1.08 - Memory Usage: 1867.26MB/23684.12MB (7.88%) - Disk Usage: 246.32GB/679.17GB (36.27%)
[21:17] <matteo__> wow
[21:18] <imbezol> beauty of ubuntu, and linux in general.. is that same install has been upgraded all the way since 9.x and put into multiple different laptops over the years
[21:18] <implite> am I right for saying to people that most things AMD work well on linux?
[21:18] <imbezol> Hostname: castle - OS: Linux 4.4.0-66-generic/x86_64 - Distro: Ubuntu 16.04.2 LTS - CPU: 16 x AMD Ryzen 7 1700 Eight-Core (1550.000 MHz) - Processes: 366 - Uptime: 3d 3h 58m - Users: 1 - Load Average: 0.87 - Memory Usage: 3758.72MB/32166.65MB (11.69%) - Disk Usage: 1020.14GB/1619.07GB (63.01%)
[21:18] <BernhardPosselt> implite: kinda depends :)
[21:18] <imbezol> ^ AMD desktop.. kicks ass :D
[21:18] <BernhardPosselt> the foss driver is great but slow and a bit buggy
[21:19] <nicomachus> !language | imbezol
[21:19] <imbezol> i don't use the FOSS driver myself
[21:20] <imbezol> running a Radeon 280x right now.. but looking at an rx 480 this weekend
[21:20] <implite> I think that AMD offer more drivers and support for everything in linux compared to other hardware places
[21:21] <imbezol> i have quite a number of AMD systems on Ubuntu and i've always been pretty happy
[21:21] <implite> thats what im thinking also
[21:21] <imbezol> both Radeon and Nvidia have had some issues over the years but they're usually solved fairly quickly
[21:21] <imbezol> sometimes bleeding edge is tough
[21:22] <matteo__> actually nvidia in 1604 have an unresolved very old bug
[21:22] <matteo__> blank windows borders on resume
[21:22] <imbezol> oh really
[21:22] <BernhardPosselt> matteo__: which would be resolved without an issue on rolling release :)
[21:23] <imbezol> yeah i can't recall what it was but there was an nvidia bug that was around when i upgraded and i went with Radeon because of it
[21:24] <imbezol> my w530 actually has some nastiness with using an external monitor. it has the intel and nvidia chips.. and it uses the intel to save power.. but the intel can't drive the external
[21:24] <imbezol> makes for a mess
[21:24] <matteo__> cannot use cuda, cntk gpu, tensorflow gpu and so on  with radeon
[21:24] <matteo__> maybe i'm not able to
[21:24] <imbezol> for mining?
[21:24] <imbezol> there's a radeon equivalent tho
[21:25] <imbezol> name escapes me but it was actually better than cuda for quite some time.. haven't looked recently
[21:25] <implite> shaders is cuda in radeon i thought
[21:25] <implite> maybe im confused?
[21:25] <daftykins> you are :>
[21:25] <matteo__> tensorflow and cntk gpu version will work with it? idk...
[21:26] <daftykins> think it was opencl?
[21:26] <imbezol> cgminer for radeon
[21:26] <implite> well doesnt radeon have something like cuda
[21:26] <daftykins> yes, opencl
[21:26] <implite> ahh ok
[21:26] <matteo__> i think i used it with hashcat, very bad  compared to cuda results
[21:27] <imbezol> cgminer does twice the hash/s as cudaminer
[21:27] <imbezol> with latest hardware
[21:27] <implite> I think it works in a different way though so its hard to compare to cuda
[21:27] <matteo__> i use it for simple ml, nl mostly
[21:28] <matteo__> and data analisys
[21:28] <implite> im trying to learn more about it with opengl and python
[21:28] <implite> haven't got into opencl yet
[21:29] <matteo__> are you a game developer?
[21:29] <implite> im a noob just learning and playing around trying to educate my self
[21:29] <imbezol> looks like radeons are much better supported for john as well
[21:29] <imbezol> haven't used hashcat much
[21:30] <matteo__> implite, all strats here
[21:30] <implite> what is strats?
[21:31] <implite> starts?
[21:31] <matteo__> aorry, i meant starts
[21:31] <implite> haha thought so
[21:32] <matteo__> maybe they all start* is better
[21:32] <matteo__> :D
[21:33] <implite> people mining bitcoins with this cudaminer then?
[21:33] <matteo__> here in italy they will loose all
[21:34] <matteo__> energy costs a lot
[21:34] <implite> seems like you would need a whole building of computers to even make it worth anything
[21:34] <matteo__> yeah
[21:34] <implite> nn that
[21:36] <implite> I remember once in the army they had over 300+ ps3 hooked up for some cool stuff
[21:36] <imbezol> generally you mine an alt-coin with a regular computer
[21:36] <imbezol> something like litecoin
[21:36] <imbezol> then you trade it for btc later
[21:36] <imbezol> but.. the days of profit on that are long gone
[21:37] <imbezol> difficulties are high enough now that you need purpose built ASICs to even hope for a positive return
[21:38] <matteo__> yep
[21:38] <imbezol> only way you might turn a bit of profit is if you're using existing equipment rather than having to buy it, and you rent somewhere with utilities included so you don't pay the power bill
[21:39] <matteo__> and change state whell bills come home
[21:39] <matteo__> :D
[21:42] <implite> I bet that guy that is renting that stuff will be bought out fast
[21:42] <implite> lol
[21:43] <implite> Hmm might be more profit in renting the stuff to the person to do it with?
[21:48] <implite> I love how malleable linux is "imbezol> you can rely on the fact that everything will change always"
[21:51] <matteo__> implite, like suse simbol
[21:51] <matteo__> chamaleon
[21:57] <implite> I have a nice old version of a free cd that ubuntu mailed to me for free once ;)
[21:58] <implite> ill have to check the version but im thinking its like 7 or something lol
[22:00] <implite> I think ill try it on a vm machine just to see what will happen haha
[22:00] <daftykins> :)
[23:27] <james1> is unity will dissapear or is an april fools joke?
[23:27] <nacc> james1: not a joke
[23:27] <daftykins> it's not the 1st of april anymore.
[23:28] <Bashing-om> james1: Not a joke , What will result we will have to await and see .
[23:29] <james1> well I like gnome a lot. I like unity too
[23:31] <Bashing-om> james1: We can anticipate that unity will go to community support . If ya like it support it .
[23:37] <acheron-a> well gnome is a good fall-back, well supported infrastructure and apps
[23:37] <acheron-a> i was starting to like Unity