[08:04] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[08:27] <popey> hello
[08:28] <SuperMatt> morning
[08:28] <brobostigon> morning
[08:41] <JamesTait> Good morning all! Happy Wednesday, and happy Day Of Hope! 😃 🌱
[12:31] <directhex> is something screwy going on with ports.ubuntu.com? i'm getting hash sum mismatches in my xenial armhf CI
[13:41] <diplo> Anyone alive in here today ?
[13:42] <zmoylan-pi> .....brains.....
[13:42] <diplo> See if I can get some suggestions. We support customers with software etc I'm sorting ssl certs out for our erp system
[13:42] <diplo> so i can resolve software.domain.tld and LE SSL works etc
[13:43] <diplo> We use Draytek ( as do a lot of our customers ) and I want to be able to resolve software.domain.tld across all subnets/vpn's whatever on our sites
[13:44] <diplo> I really just think I'm buggered and I'll have to add a manual entry on each router unless I setup a bind or dnsmasq on the main site and get all the others pointing to it, which is way past my remit
[14:14] <diplo> Think I may have got around it with some routing \o/
[17:27] <acheronuk> https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
[17:36] <acheronuk> Unity & Mir - RIP
[17:36] <acheronuk> Gnome shell for 18.04 LTS as ubuntu default it seems
[17:39] <ali1234> about time
[17:48] <ali1234> convergence was a terrible idea from the start
[17:49] <zmoylan-pi> i think there's a place for convergence... i'm just not sure anyone will do it right
[17:49] <ali1234> there are basically two types of users, people who don't need a desktop PC, and people for whom a phone isn't anywhere near powerful enough to replace their desktop
[17:49] <ali1234> as a result, convergence is good for nobody
[17:50] <zmoylan-pi> there is a 3rd group... people who can get by with very low spec systems and just want a docking station to add a decent screen and keyboard when not out and about
[17:50] <ali1234> you can do that on android, it works fine
[17:50] <zmoylan-pi> i've wanted such a system since a company played around with one for psion 5's back in the day
[17:50] <ali1234> there's no need for convergence
[17:50] <zmoylan-pi> android is an os i just don't trust
[17:51] <zmoylan-pi> ditto chromeos
[17:51] <ali1234> then you shouldn't trust ubuntu phones either, since they run on the same backend
[17:51] <zmoylan-pi> true and i wouldn't have
[17:51] <ali1234> did you read that story about hacking broadcom's baseband?
[17:51] <ali1234> that's the danger zone, not the android UI
[17:52] <knightwi1e> hey everyone
[17:52] <ali1234> i just hope that canonical can knock some sense into the gnome desktop
[17:53] <ali1234> i might finally be able to use it if they can
[17:54] <ali1234> i'll probably just keep on using xfce though :)
[17:55] <acheronuk> I'm not shifting from KDE ;)
[18:36]  * zmoylan-pi will stick with xubuntu
[18:37]  * brobostigon sticks with either xmonad oe i3wm, :)
[18:38] <brobostigon> i3 is prefferred.
[18:39]  * zmoylan-pi seems to be spending more time in tmux these days... :-)
[18:39] <brobostigon> :D
[18:39] <zmoylan-pi> none of this namby pamby wishy washy fluffy wuffy guis.... :-P
[18:40] <foobarry> wow big news
[18:40]  * brobostigon likes zmoylan-pi :)
[18:40] <zmoylan-pi> it is a real pity if not unexpected for the ubuntu phone
[18:40] <foobarry> i was discussing with a colleague the other day. how much time had been spent on disruptive projects
[18:41] <foobarry> and they should can mir, unity and align more closelyon making something awesome
[18:41] <foobarry> gnome3 is the only thing that sucks harder than unity though :P
[18:42] <brobostigon> infact, gnome-shell does the tiling which i like from i3wm.
[18:44] <foobarry> how many man-years have just been binned that could have been spent on working together on stuff?
[18:45] <zmoylan-pi> it's not linux unless you fork early and often :-)
[18:45] <foobarry> while i agree its a good decision , decisions along the way such as mir have made this more seismic
[18:46] <foobarry> canonical will surely have much more resources free to make a great desktop that were being wasted on making slow progress
[18:46] <zmoylan-pi> aren't they just redirecting all their efforts into the current fad of iot?
[18:47] <brobostigon> zmoylan-pi: there might be a reason why my fiance convinced me to test out an openbsd install on her, after her doing her own reser
[18:47] <brobostigon> zmoylan-pi: there might be a reason why my fiance convinced me to test out an openbsd install on her, after her doing her own research.
[18:47] <zmoylan-pi> i do intend at some point to give slaceware a spin...
[18:48]  * brobostigon likes a simplest debian install.
[18:50] <foobarry> unity sent me away from ubuntu. hopeful for what happens next
[18:51] <zmoylan-pi> unity sent me running screaming towards xubuntu.  it was a short sprint... :-)
[18:51] <foobarry> realising you have made a mistake is beginning of wisdom
[18:52] <foobarry> and acting on it takes balls
[18:53] <foobarry> what happened to that debian on phone project?
[18:53] <foobarry> maru os
[18:54] <foobarry> shuttleworth's page has melted
[18:55]  * zmoylan-pi holds out for emacos for phones :-P
[19:02] <foobarry> the funny thing is, the cheapest solution is also the best in terms of making most linux desktop users happy. don't alienate
[19:03] <daftykins> yip, so going out on their own with new projects all the time harms things
[19:03] <foobarry> provide some nice tweaks to the common desktop and push them upstream, and provide the best theme etc that everyone will want to use
[19:12] <foobarry> anyone heard from popey ?
[19:14] <daftykins> seen him speak today, definitely alive :>
[19:16] <popey> hello
[19:16] <popey> mostly been chatting on telegram where every channel has been on fire
[19:17]  * brobostigon has been following ubuntu phone pebble on telegram.
[19:19] <brobostigon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzORnRVZDkM
[19:19] <brobostigon> :)
[19:27] <foobarry> are there any more insights in addtiion to what shuttles has revealed?
[19:28] <foobarry> will they make gnome3 suck less or just stick with defaults?
[19:30] <foobarry> and why not 17.10?
[19:31] <foobarry> since it's usually considered the beta for the LTS
[19:31] <popey> i would imagine 17.10 would be similar to 18.04
[19:31] <popey> doesn't make sense to land all the new stuff in the LTS
[19:36] <sebsebseb> WOW at the breaking news!
[19:42] <foobarry> i guess the question is will there be new stuff, or mostly stock gnome
[19:43] <foobarry> aren't you mainly doing phone stuff popey atm? you safe?
[19:45] <sebsebseb> foobarry: without unity less of a reason to run ubuntu much less of one, there are other distros that do gnome better
[19:46] <foobarry> au contraire
[19:47] <foobarry> we haven't seen what ubuntu have produced yet. they could do waht they did in the early days and provide compelling reason to use ubuntu over other OS by havng nice tweaks etc
[19:49] <sebsebseb> foobarry: uh the old GNOME 2 patching they used to do, mostly sucked
[20:02] <ali1234> do people actually still run ubuntu for the desktop environment?
[20:02] <ali1234> only reason i still run it is for the archive and the support
[20:03] <ali1234> i'm not going anywhere near fedora
[20:03] <diddledan> so with unity going away, does that mean mir is, too?
[20:03] <brobostigon> debian and openbsd on mine and martners machines.
[20:03] <ali1234> i see ubuntu as debian without the attitude
[20:03] <brobostigon> diddledan: gnome-shell is moving towards using wayland.
[20:03]  * diddledan flames ali1234
[20:04] <ali1234> mir is kind of pointless without unity
[20:05] <sebsebseb> ali1234: I read a blog post bofore about how it could be used by other htings
[20:05] <sebsebseb> but yeah
[20:05] <ali1234> it could be, but why?
[20:05] <sebsebseb> exactly
[20:06] <sebsebseb> ali1234: I am running ubuntu for unity
[20:06] <sebsebseb> in more recent years
[20:06] <sebsebseb> otherwise nope
[20:06] <sebsebseb> GNOME works better in other distros, debatably
[20:06] <sebsebseb> all other interfaces run else where to etc
[20:06] <ali1234> but nothing else does
[20:06] <sebsebseb> some of them debatably are really more user freindly than ubuntu to
[20:07] <ali1234> using proprietary software sucks in any other distro
[20:07] <ali1234> nvidia drivers, skype, steam... ubuntu does them all way better than any other distro
[20:08] <zmoylan-pi> it's kinda the lowest common denominator for linux
[20:08] <zmoylan-pi> if it's gonna only work on 1-2 distros 90% of the time it'll be ubuntu
[20:08] <diddledan> I vote gentoo
[20:08] <diddledan> :-p
[20:09] <daftykins> XD
[20:09] <ali1234> yes, and the other 10% of the time its RHEL 6.2
[20:09] <zmoylan-pi> you have shares in intel diddledan? :-P
[20:09] <daftykins> intel o0
[20:09] <ali1234> anyway, maybe the community will take over unity, and rip out all the bad stuff
[20:09] <diddledan> I wonder whether AMDs neural net branch predictor will benefit or hinder compilation
[20:10] <zmoylan-pi> what would be left? :-P
[20:10] <diddledan> to be fair, though, I don't really understand low-level stuff
[20:10] <ali1234> the launcher is nice
[20:11] <diddledan> the lawn chair? :-p
[20:11] <ali1234> indicators are really good
[20:11] <foobarry> did gnome3 ditch the minimise button?
[20:11] <ali1234> probably
[20:12] <zmoylan-pi> or changed it to a stealth button that appears as far away from the mouse as possible...
[20:13] <ali1234> thinking about it, they'll have to rip out the dash, because it won't work wihtout the server
[20:13] <ali1234> the online bits that nobody likes, anyway
[20:18] <ali1234> the big problem with gnome is it has zero capability to be extended in any way
[20:20] <foobarry> you mean the extensions that crash the system and are generally imcompatible
[20:20] <m0nkey_> In a weird way, I like Unity.
[20:20] <m0nkey_> Never could get on with Gnome3
[20:21] <diddledan> ^ ditto
[20:21] <ali1234> also the lack of multimonitor support
[20:21] <ali1234> but unity is not much better in that respect
[20:22] <sebsebseb> m0nkey_: I ike unity 7 and 8
[20:22] <m0nkey_> Never used multi-monitor in Linux, always a pain to configure.
[20:22] <sebsebseb> but prefer GNOME 3 GNOME Shell really :d
[20:22] <sebsebseb> but been using unity 7 a lot this past year or so
[20:22] <ali1234> i like unity 7 more than i like gnome
[20:22] <sebsebseb> when not on ntablet
[20:23] <sebsebseb> then its 8
[20:23] <ali1234> but i like gnome more than i like unity 8
[20:23] <sebsebseb> unity 7 is easy to use
[20:23] <sebsebseb> a menu down the side on left
[20:23] <sebsebseb> a few idcons on top right
[20:23] <sebsebseb> yep
[20:23] <sebsebseb> GNOME 3 is more flashy but its good like that :)
[20:23] <ali1234> unity 8 is just nonsense
[20:23] <sebsebseb> and unity 8 is good as well,  when you give it apps
[20:23] <sebsebseb> etc
[20:23] <sebsebseb> like on the tablet or on deskto pwith snaps
[20:24] <ali1234> the tablet version of unity 8 is just awful
[20:24] <sebsebseb> no its good
[20:24] <ali1234> everything is done with swiping, there's zero discoverability of anything
[20:24] <sebsebseb> good enough for me
[20:24] <sebsebseb> been using that as my main device for about a year in fact
[20:24] <sebsebseb> but only mostly doing web browisng and email and basic things so yep
[20:24] <ali1234> and all the apps are just web containers
[20:24] <sebsebseb> well there have been some good native apps to
[20:24] <ali1234> half of them are broken because the underlying websites changed etc
[20:25] <sebsebseb> but yes stuff like that caused ssues app problems
[20:25] <ali1234> there's no consistency in the UI
[20:25] <sebsebseb> they should have supporte d android apps really
[20:25] <sebsebseb> like salifsih and tizen
[20:25] <sebsebseb> probably
[20:25] <ali1234> not even in the native bits is there any consistency
[20:26] <ali1234> its half material design, half something that looks like blackberry OS from 2003
[20:26] <ali1234> there was never a convincing developer story wrt SDKs and docs
[20:28] <ali1234> i've said it about a million times before, but they should never have dropped unity 7 Qt version
[20:28] <ali1234> that should have been the main version, and drop compiz
[20:29] <ali1234> unity 7 had loads of problems, but they could have been fixed, instead of wasting time on convergence, that was already proven to be unwanted in the market
[20:29] <ali1234> (multiple times)
[20:30] <zmoylan-pi> it has never been done right in the market...
[20:30] <ali1234> android has a better "convergence" system and all they did was make it support USB mouse and keyboard
[20:30] <zmoylan-pi> convergence feels at the moment like tablets in the 90s
[20:31] <ali1234> zmoylan-pi: yes, literally
[20:31] <ali1234> because it is trying to force things into a wrong UI
[20:31] <zmoylan-pi> technically possible but done so badly as to be useless except for niche applications
[20:31] <sebsebseb> ubuntu tablet and logitech k480 is nice
[20:31] <ali1234> meanwhile android tablets and ipads are amazing now
[20:32] <ali1234> and the reason for this is because they understood that people use tablets for different things than they use desktop PCs for... and therefore its pointless to run the same software on them
[20:32] <zmoylan-pi> tablets sales are shrinking atm aren't they?
[20:32] <ali1234> yes, but only because literally everyone has one
[20:32] <daftykins> a shrink from a lot is a lot
[20:32] <daftykins> *still a lot :D
[20:32] <ali1234> smartphone sales are not shrinking
[20:33] <zmoylan-pi> i'm not so sure... when i game i meet with a bunch of people who all have laptops and keyboards but still drag heavy hardback manuals as they are far superior to any ebook experience
[20:33] <daftykins> those aren't your average folks though, by the sounds
[20:33] <ali1234> manuals, who even uses those any more?
[20:34] <zmoylan-pi> yet the biggest social media reports from last mwc was the nokia 3310 reboot :-)
[20:34] <ali1234> i can't remember the last time i bought something that had more than 2 pages of english instructions
[20:34] <zmoylan-pi> d&d manuals are super important to gamers... i have the pdfs but still read the paper copy as it's faster easier
[20:34] <ali1234> they're generally out of date before the product even ships anyway
[20:36] <ali1234> paper is kill
[20:36] <ali1234> the only time i even use a pen is when i'm writing a christmas or birthday card
[20:37] <zmoylan-pi> even ebook sales are down in some stories i've seen as readers choose paper over ebook.
[20:37] <ali1234> or rolling a cigarette
[20:37] <ali1234> wait, i don't use a pen for that, but you get the idea
[20:37] <zmoylan-pi> but that might be down to ebooks been a pain with drm more than anything else
[20:38] <ali1234> yeah those people buying books are like hipsters buying vinyl
[20:38] <zmoylan-pi> i think i was using a palm device when i first encountered not been able to move a book between devices :-)
[20:38] <ali1234> normal people just don't have the time or space to deal with a large collection of physical media
[20:38] <zmoylan-pi> vinyl sales are doing very well :-)
[20:39] <ali1234> yeah they have a niche market
[20:39] <ali1234> bet most of it never gets played
[20:39] <zmoylan-pi> books are nice when you're in someones place as you can read the titles on the shelves
[20:39] <ali1234> bookshelves are nice to put in the background of your youtube videos, to make yourself look clever :)
[20:40] <zmoylan-pi> won't that block the national flags showing your patrioism?!
[20:42] <ali1234> you can just get loads of books about nationalism, and kill two birds etc
[20:42] <ali1234> but anyway
[20:42] <ali1234> if ubuntu is going all-in on IoT and the cloud, does that mean we can finally get ubuntu for all models of raspberry pi? since that is pretty much the defacto board for linux IoT now?
[20:43] <zmoylan-pi> hmmmmmm. i could get ones with green, white and orange dust jackets and place them so they make a flag... :-P
[20:44] <zmoylan-pi> wouldn't that be a big leap to jump to arm from x86?
[20:45] <zmoylan-pi> i _would_ like to run ubuntu or xubuntu on a pi3...
[20:46] <ali1234> well you can
[20:46] <zmoylan-pi> for varying levels of /run/ :-)
[20:46] <ali1234> no, fully
[20:46] <ali1234> xubuntu anyway
[20:46] <ali1234> not unity, it needs compiz and opengl
[20:47] <ali1234> no, the issue is the pi zero
[20:47] <ali1234> pi 3 is a power hog, and huge
[20:47] <ali1234> its not good for IoT devices
[20:48] <ali1234> nobody wants a smart widget that uses 15W even when it is turned off
[20:50] <zmoylan-pi> great for keeping frost out of the greenhouse :-)
[23:46] <daftykins> oh my, i heard this announcement about this Radio 2 DJ dying this morning on the news - turns out they were wrong