[00:29] <engkaw> hey
[00:29] <engkaw> someone there?
[00:51] <KDG> it is true ubuntu-touch is dead?
[00:52] <KDG> or is it a april fool thing?
[01:04] <lpotter> truth
[01:17] <KDG> :-(
[01:18] <KDG> i was save up to buy a ubuntu phone for 2017 :(
[01:24] <lpotter> bummer
[01:34] <qumak> it's a shame they bailed before dropping a unity 8 ota... was kinda hoping the switch would be a performance boost on my slow af mx4 w/ its long-since-deprecated unity 7
[01:36] <KDG> yea
[01:37] <KDG> hope some fork it :)
[01:38] <dobey> qumak: huh? if you are running unity 7 on an mx4, you did something very unsupported :)
[01:40] <qumak> oh my bad
[01:40] <qumak> guess i had the wrong impression, thought it was still on 7 and wanted a scapegoat heh
[01:40] <qumak> must be slow for other good reasons :)
[01:42] <dobey> no, ubuntu on phones has always been unity 8
[03:10] <hellslinger> I see on the mailing list that there are people who want to continue development, which is encouraging. Gnome 3 is already really good with touch, why not go with that route? Why is Qt/QML better than GTK 3 for such a platform?
[05:39] <ulrichard> So that's it then for ubuntu phone? What good options are left other than hoping the Aquaris will last until an eventual release of the purism phone?
[09:40] <chris____> i came here to say how sad I am about the news released today
[09:41] <chris____> I've been using ubuntu touch since 2013 on a nexus
[09:41] <brunch875> weren't they released yesterday?
[09:41] <chris____> I watch all of pixelr0's videos and look forward to each release of unity 8
[09:41] <chris____> i guess so
[09:41] <brunch875> I share the feeling
[09:41] <chris____> I'm pulling a late night here in california --3am here
[09:41] <brunch875> I was really looking forward to it
[09:41] <chris____> I wrote an app for ubuntu-touch
[09:42] <chris____> anyway I've been loyal fan
[09:42] <chris____> and it breaks my heart
[09:43] <chris____> it seems surreal
[09:44] <chris____> or unreal i guess
[09:45] <chris____> I hope that everyone working on it will recover their spirits as much as possible
[09:46] <chris____> it was too good to be true
[09:47] <brunch875> chris____: no need for such a long face :------) There's snaps!
[09:49] <chris____> i was really glad not to be locked into apple/microsoft/google ---I've been really glad to know ubuntu phone would be there
[09:49] <chris____> and generally I'm a fan of some software...
[09:49] <chris____> its why I use linux
[09:49] <chris____> I like watching it grow and change and get better with each release
[09:50] <chris____> and unity 8 was really getting to a great place
[09:51] <chris____> I installed zesty on one of my machines
[09:51] <brunch875> yes, I'm also surprised that the project flopped just now
[09:51] <brunch875> that it was starting to flourish
[09:52] <chris____> yeah its like a four year relationship that is going well and then "poof" breakup or divorce
[09:52] <chris____> it appeared that the hardest problems had been solved by this point
[09:53] <chris____> and the unity8 desktop was nearly usable
[09:53] <chris____> and it was awesome
[09:54] <chris____> the phone has been really good and I think the interface is better than any other
[09:54] <brunch875> I agree
[09:55] <brunch875> the only thing that annoyed me was the application lifecycle
[09:55] <brunch875> but you could override that with gsettings
[09:56] <chris____> brunch875: will you move to a different distribution?
[09:56] <brunch875> chris____: you mean, like fedora?
[09:56] <chris____> I've been a hardcore ubuntu user but feel like I need to use something else to forget about this and move on
[09:56] <chris____> yeah
[09:57] <brunch875> if I had to pick anything else, I'd pick fedora
[09:57] <brunch875> but I just love the debian packaging system
[09:57] <brunch875> and ubuntu has always been so... polished
[09:57] <brunch875> I'll stick to ubuntu
[09:57] <brunch875> perhaps ubuntu-gnome
[09:57] <chris____> yeah they are ending unity 7 as well (which I also like very much)
[09:57] <brunch875> but I just like unity so much I'll stick to it until I have to let go
[09:58] <brunch875> I tried gnome, I was dissatisfied
[09:58] <brunch875> too much clutter and the shortcuts weren't as good
[10:01] <chris____> I used linux for many years before ubuntu...
[10:01] <chris____> I don't want to go back to those days
[10:03] <chris____> with ubuntu's user-focused efforts going down
[10:03] <mcphail> I was seriously considering leaving Ubuntu (despite using it since warty) because I felt Canonical were continuing to drive towards a dead end. I'm really sad the experiment has not worked out, and absolutely gutted for the developers. But it has given me optimism that the distro might get back on track
[10:04] <brunch875> mcphail: exactly!
[10:04] <mcphail> And we'll still have Unity7 on 16.04 for ages yet
[10:05] <chris____> I don't understand why people were so critical of the experiment...
[10:05] <mcphail> chris____: I think the experiment was great, but it has been floundering for months. Someone needed to put a stop to it
[10:06] <chris____> I don't know if that's true
[10:07] <mcphail> chris____: well, if not it gives hope someone can fork and continue
[10:07] <chris____> canonical made a loud announcement of their plans very early
[10:07] <chris____> which is something that apple and microsoft would not do
[10:08] <chris____> and for many creative people that produce creative content (like me) this strategy of announcing things before they are mostly worked out is really a bad idea
[10:08] <chris____> it compromises the vision of the product exposing it to criticisms before the vision is fully realised
[10:09] <chris____> and sets up expectations for the people making the creative work
[10:09] <k1l_> mcphail: imho it was quite clear that mir+unity8+convergence was a too big task for only one company. due to politics there was no chance of getting more involvment from the broughter community. but imho most people are way overestimating now what this means to the linux desktop land now.
[10:09] <chris____> and doesn't bring any value at all
[10:10] <mcphail> k1l_: yes, I think there is a bit of a grief reaction amongst those of us who loved what Canonical were doing
[10:11] <chris____> ubuntu-touch was basically the only usable alternative phone system
[10:11] <chris____> the *only* one
[10:11] <chris____> and nothing else in linux land is even coming close to it
[10:11] <chris____> and not only was it the *only* one --it was really great
[10:12] <chris____> and given how much time it took to become great
[10:12] <k1l_> stopping unity and mir will not make other desktops and wayland just be perfect right now. there is still a lot of work to be done on wayland and gnome (or others). and canonical doesnt want to do this work, aiui.
[10:12] <mcphail> I haven't tried wayland yet. Will be interesting to see what they've achieved
[10:13] <mcphail> But I won't mourn the death of compiz
[10:14] <k1l_> chris____: yes, even microsoft struggles against android and iOS.
[10:14] <k1l_> mcphail: no one planed to keep compiz alive. not even the creators of compiz :)
[10:14] <chris____> i feel like these other phones are just cia surveillance devices
[10:15] <chris____> ubuntu touch allowed me to use telegram and write and use my own flashcard app --just like one of those phones
[10:15] <mcphail> k1l_: ha!
[10:15] <benji__> Hi
[10:15] <benji__> Anyone here?
[10:15] <chris____> but i didn't have to sign away my privacy to anyone
[10:15] <chris____> now in the post-ubuntu-touch world
[10:16] <chris____> i will need to be bombarded with ads
[10:16] <benji__> I have a question...my meizu mx4 just arrived and i want to install ubuntu touch....
[10:16] <brunch875> benji__: forget about it, the project died yesteday
[10:17] <benji__> i have troubles unlocking the phone. When i try sudo fastboot oem unlock
[10:17] <popey> brunch875: steady
[10:17] <benji__> i always get the error: FAILED (remote: unknown command) finished. total time: 0.015s
[10:18] <benji__> does anyone know how to unlock the device?
[10:18] <popey> benji__: depends, the international versions can (apparently) be unlocked, the chinese versions (apparently) can not
[10:18] <benji__> mhm and how can i check that?
[10:19] <popey> I don't think it's easy to tell
[10:22] <benji__> ...means?
[10:22] <benji__> Is there anyway to check that?
[10:22] <chris____> i don't mean to be rude but are you a bot benji__?
[10:23] <benji__> no not really why are you asking?
[10:24] <benji__> i just came here from https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/phone/devices/installing-ubuntu-for-devices/
[10:24] <benji__> because I am stuck in the step to unlock the phone...
[10:25] <chris____> I googled this a few years back and decided not to get a meizu for this reason...
[10:25] <jabawok> gotta say i've been following ubuntu touch since day dot, currently using a aquaris e5hd as a daily driver - very dissapointed in the news, but optimistic for ubuntu.
[10:25] <k1l_> benji__: where are you stuck?
[10:26] <jabawok> looks like the old Nokia N900 will outlive my ubuntu phone
[10:26] <chris____> _I_ can't give you a useful answer but this is a tricky issue with these meizu phones
[10:26] <benji__> ....i am stuck exactly at the command: sudo fastboot oem unlock
[10:26] <chris____> there is nothing to be optimistic about
[10:27] <benji__> which returns: FAILED (remote: unknown command) finished. total time: 0.014s
[10:27] <jabawok> dropping mir?  .. thats the first correct step ubuntu has taken in a long time. lets all pull in the same direciton at least
[10:27] <chris____> there are already plenty of distros that do the safe non-innovative stuff
[10:28] <chris____> and my understanding was that mir was basically complete
[10:28] <k1l_> jabawok: i dont think there is something like "same direction" for all the different people on linux. there will be new issues
[10:28] <benji__> does anyone here know, where i should start asking/searching? I advanced in using Linux stuff but not android and smartphone stuff...
[10:28] <chris____> the development efforts were spent on unity 8 and integration w/ proprietary video cards
[10:29] <jabawok> thats exactly where combining efforts is so much more productive
[10:29] <k1l_> benji__: is the device in fastboot mode?
[10:29] <benji__> yes
[10:29] <chris____> if you killed all desktop environments but one...
[10:29] <jabawok> and no other distro is going to use mir
[10:29] <chris____> everyone would not suddenly go and work on the one de
[10:29] <k1l_> benji__: and your device is unlockable? i know there are different devices for different continents and some are not unlockable
[10:29] <jabawok> i have no problems with unity 8 - but they should have designed it on wayland, and helped in that effort instead
[10:29] <benji__> it seems so...
[10:30] <benji__> but actually I am not sure about that...
[10:30] <chris____> if mir became prevalent for its convergence more people would use unity 8
[10:30] <k1l_> jabawok: yes. but the base problem that lead to unity7 and that again lead to mir was that there is not the perfect "lets do this together and we will  find compromises" world.
[10:30] <jabawok> well there is now
[10:30] <chris____> from my reading it sounds like mir and unity 8 take care of security issues left un-addressed by wayland
[10:30] <jabawok> which is why i'm optimistic
[10:31] <jabawok> so fix wayland
[10:31] <jabawok> work with other distros
[10:31] <jabawok> work together with the foss community
[10:31] <chris____> truly great things are not made by "communities"
[10:32] <k1l_> jabawok: well, that is what the linux community expects now: canonical fixing wayland and all the other desktops. this will not happen, imho
[10:32] <jabawok> well theres more chance of them helping fix wayland problems now that they are not continuing mir
[10:33] <jabawok> its massively good news imo
[10:33] <k1l_> and i dont think redhat will now magically accept the ubuntu patches to gnome :) so i guess we will see a vanilla gnome or we see a franken-gnome :)
[10:33] <chris____> people wanting canonical to "work with the community" are just negative people who want to control canonical forcing them to serve some committee process that does not really respect end users all that much
[10:33] <chris____> there was plenty of community before ubuntu came along
[10:34] <k1l_> jabawok: aiui, canonical doesnt want to invest as much in the desktop anymore. so canonical now paying to fix wayland and the desktops will not happen
[10:34] <benji__> any hints in here our not?
[10:34] <jabawok> benji__ i doubt it sorry
[10:34] <jabawok> also benji.. have you heard the news?
[10:35] <senkaw> Some BR in at this channel?
[10:35] <benji__> does anyone know how to find out of my devices is unlockable or not?
[10:35] <chris____> probably canonical will redeploy their resources
[10:35] <jabawok> you might be very much wasting your efforts
[10:35] <chris____> i doubt the unity/mir resources will be applied to wayland
[10:35] <benji__> mhm...hopefully plasma mobile will advance ;)
[10:35] <jabawok> yep benji__ but *definitely* not on your hardware
[10:36] <k1l_> sorry to say, but kde got a way worse track record at failing
[10:36] <benji__> i know about that but i just bought a miezu mx4 because it is said that there is a stable release...they could just add a line like: CHeck first if your mx4 is unlockable arr
[10:38] <k1l_> benji__: was this a flyme OS meizu mx4?
[10:38] <benji__> yes
[10:38] <benji__> with 5.1 android
[10:38] <k1l_> that seems to be a known isseu
[10:38] <k1l_> http://news.softpedia.com/news/buying-a-meizu-mx4-with-android-to-flash-ubuntu-is-not-a-good-idea-485495.shtml
[10:40] <k1l_> looks like you need the mtk flash tool to do some repartitioning first
[10:40] <benji__> mhm
[10:40] <jabawok> i'll be looking to flash in the other direction soon on my BQ E5HD
[10:40] <jabawok> hopefully its not as problemattic
[10:40] <jabawok> ie ubuntu to android
[10:40] <benji__> as discribed ;)
[10:41] <chris____> I think I read that the russian government would sponser jolla or sailfish or one of those...
[10:41] <chris____> maybe I will look into that
[10:41] <mcphail> jabawok: I went back and forward on my e4.5 many times. Not difficult at all
[10:41] <jabawok> yeah thats the spiritual successor to maemo - chances are it'll actually be more usable than ubuntu touch
[10:41] <jabawok> mcphail: awesome cheers
[10:41] <benji__> mhm so the way would be: unlock device; repartition the storage with mtk tool and install ubunut?
[10:42] <chris____> good night everyone
[10:42] <chris____> farewell ubuntu
[10:43] <k1l_> benji__: can you read german?
[10:43] <benji__> of course ;)
[10:43] <k1l_> https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Ubuntu_Touch/flash_tool/
[10:43] <benji__> muttersprache..
[10:44] <k1l_> benji__: maybe its worth asking in the forums there in the ubuntu-touch section. there are people who should know about
[10:45] <benji__> mhm interesting...now some light is coming in...7
[10:46]  * mcphail remembers the joy of seeing the Ubuntu boot screen for the first time. Hope benji__ makes it :)
[10:47] <benji__> do you mean askubuntu heheh
[10:47] <benji__> hehe
[10:47] <benji__> will be fun and enjoyment but the way seems longer than expected ;)
[10:49] <benji__> https://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/meizu-mx4-handy-mit-original-flyme-os-patchen-/ ....seems promising
[10:52] <thepeter> Has anybody stayed here after yesterdays/todays news?
[10:52] <mcphail> thepeter: we're stubbornly refusing to move
[10:52] <brunch875> thepeter: this is more vivid than before
[10:53] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-touch-and-unity-8-are-not-dead-ubports-community-will-keep-them-alive-514620.shtml
[10:53] <lotuspsychje> nice one guys!
[10:53] <thepeter> so my question is ... what is/will be community answer to this situation? is there a chance of friendly fork and full community developement? :D
[10:53] <brunch875> are they taking over the OTAs then?
[10:53] <brunch875> thepeter: ^ check lotuspsychje's link
[10:54] <thepeter> lotuspsychje, uhm cool is it true?
[10:54] <thepeter> brunch875, thats exactly what I hoped for
[10:54] <lotuspsychje> thepeter: softpedia news doesnt lie
[10:54] <k1l_> thepeter: its all open source. so yes, the community can take that over anytime they want
[10:55] <thepeter> k1l_, question is more if community will get any independent organisation structure so there will be regular desicion making and so on ...
[10:59] <k1l_> thepeter: imho the question is: how much manpower will be left to actually do anything.
[10:59]  * thepeter will probably pay more attention to UB ports ... let's see if I'll manage to get involved more ...
[11:04] <lotuspsychje> in my opinion now users are used to ubuntu on tablets and phones, there will be no turning back
[11:05] <lotuspsychje> youn cant invent something then take that away
[11:05] <mcphail> lotuspsychje: I think the userbase was always to small to sustain that. We'd have needed Ubuntu to be as easy to install on $RANDOM_DEVICE as cyanogenmod. That never happened
[11:06] <lotuspsychje> the stron community here made this big
[11:07] <thepeter> mcphail, lotuspsychje and what exactly is reson for guys from LineageOs and UBports etc to team up and collaborate?
[11:09] <mcphail> thepeter: I've never tried to build Ubuntu for a new device. I don't know what the blockers are. I think the RIL was a big one
[11:09] <benji__> Thanks people for the infos espaccially k1l_
[11:10] <benji__> I posted a thread in the forums...
[11:10] <benji__> see ya maybe ..
[11:11] <thepeter> mcphail, me neither, but last think what canonical could do for is to give community knowledge they gathered over these years
[11:11] <thepeter> so these exact questions could be answered
[11:11] <thepeter> benji__, CU soon
[11:12] <k1l_> ubuntu-touch is based on a quite old android version to get the android drivers to work. that is one of the main issues
[11:12] <k1l_> android 4.4 iirc
[11:12] <thepeter> oh
[11:13] <thepeter> so there is what lineageOS guys could have inputs in
[11:13] <k1l_> and drivers are a nightmare on the non-pc devices. so most times you only get android drivers for one specific kernel for a device. that is the reason even android struggles with shipping updates
[11:14] <k1l_> and since android has no interest in changing that, neither do ios or windowsphone, i dont see any hope that this will ever get any better, like having generic open source drivers like we have on the pc
[11:14] <thepeter> k1l_, well yes but there are some devices with open drivers ... those might be preferred to port
[11:16] <k1l_> really open drivers?
[11:17] <mcphail> thepeter: unless you can port to last year's flagship Samsung (which won't have drivers available) you're not going to reach a large audience
[11:18] <thepeter> mcphail, true ... but what I have proposed when it was nes was nvidia tablet ...
[11:18] <mcphail> I thought Marius had an Android 5.x branch working, but even then that is an historic OS
[11:19] <thepeter> mcphail, I still have that tablet in mind but never done this kind of port before
[11:20] <mcphail> thepeter: a tablet might be easier than a phone, as you might not have the hassle of interfacing with the radio
[11:22] <thepeter> mcphail, well I still need a lots of knowledge to gain courage for the try
[11:24] <mcphail> thepeter: Very sadly, I fear the developers may be attempting to define a role for themselves in the new, slimmed-down, Canonical vision than spending time creating post-hoc documentation for a faded project. I think the Ubports guys will be a better source of support. :(
[11:25] <thepeter> mcphail, the thing is that there is already port for desktop ubuntu for that tablet
[11:26] <thepeter> mcphail, true very true, but just theoretically it would be nice last gift from cannoncal
[11:28] <engkaw> hey guys
[11:33] <thepeter> engkaw, Hi
[13:55] <aiyion> well, now what? ubuntu-touch is dead for good? :/
[13:57] <lotuspsychje> aiyion: http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-touch-and-unity-8-are-not-dead-ubports-community-will-keep-them-alive-514620.shtml
[13:57] <KristijanZic> aiyion: Not at all :D It's already being forked. Take a look at this: http://www.unity8.org/
[14:37] <Sander> ANyone know why gmail hangs on the red/green/yellow round button when loading more mail? Looks to be locking gmail webapp up totally.
[14:38] <Sander> Looks like I have to open the scrolling thing and swipe the window away...
[17:34] <qumak> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8r5uS4UQAATwb6.jpg
[17:35] <OerHeks> don't bury the phone, before it is dead.
[17:36] <Ubport-user|9134> hello
[17:37] <Ubport-user|9134> is there still any development made on the phones or did it just die complete ??
[17:52] <Ubport-user|9134> ??
[18:14] <thepeter> Ubport-user|9134, not we deny to die don't worry :)
[18:15] <thepeter> Ubport-user|9134, just need to reorganise to raise again :)
[18:15] <Ubport-user|9134> :D
[18:15] <Ubport-user|9134> Thats why i love the Ubuntu Community :)
[18:16] <Ubport-user|9134> won't flash my mx4 to android
[18:16] <thepeter> Ubport-user|9134, well I am not willing to do that on my BQ E5 neither
[18:17] <Ubport-user|9134> UBports for the safe of Ubuntu Phone OS
[20:23] <KDG> Ubport-user|9134: :D
[20:49] <ToxicGumbo-work> I literally just started getting into Ubuntu Touch in the past 48 hours, so I commend everyone for everything done to this point.
[20:49] <ToxicGumbo-work> And for the commitments I'm seeing on the list to keep the project going.
[20:52] <ToxicGumbo-work> Bummer announcement by Shuttleworth though either way.
[21:04] <thepeter> ToxicGumbo-work, we all here live the hope that Ubports will be capable to keep on promise in their reaction to Canonicals anouncement
[21:08] <ToxicGumbo-work> I hear you loud and clear.  I unlocked my work-issued Asus Transformer tablet yesterday and discovered at the last step (loading an image) will require dev/test work on my part.
[21:10] <ToxicGumbo-work> Thanks for the reference.  Just jumped into #ubports
[21:11] <thepeter> ToxicGumbo-work, you are welcome
[21:12] <ToxicGumbo-work> Perhaps this article has already been posted here. https://fossbytes.com/unity-8-ubuntu-touch-ubports/
[21:14] <thepeter> ToxicGumbo-work, well there was link to original message from ubports somewhere :)
[21:16] <ToxicGumbo-work> Ah, yes.  I'm sure quite a few people here are on the mailing list among other things.
[22:04] <thepeter> I am thinking ... does it make sense to keep system read-only? Should we expect any OTAs? because if not I was thinking about using apt-get packages a long time ago ...
[22:05] <lpotter> keeping the system ro helps protect against outside intrusions
[22:05] <thepeter> I mean use it like standard distro ... I know dependencies will probably be a nightmare
[22:06] <thepeter> lpotter, like attacks from network?
[22:06] <lpotter> sure. or even if someone has physical to your device
[22:07] <lpotter> access that is
[22:08] <thepeter> lpotter, if someone has physical access to device ro can be changed and I won't be able to stop him
[22:09] <thepeter> lpotter, well actually a firewall was something I was thinking about in case of debian packages
[22:09] <lpotter> you need root to be able to change to rw
[22:10] <thepeter> lpotter, which (I assume) you have using developers mode
[22:11] <thepeter> and in terminal sudo makes the trick very often for me
[22:12] <thepeter> lpotter, and while there is no chance to use different unlock code for user and of root - I am always root on my device (which I like of course)
[22:13] <lpotter> someone knowledgeable will always be able to access a device of they have physical access to it. casual use is a different story
[22:14] <thepeter> so physical access attack is just matter of four digits used on every unlock of device
[22:14] <thepeter> lpotter, true
[22:15] <thepeter> anyway for me only reason why to not go into rw was OTAs
[22:16] <thepeter> but if there will be no OTA I would go "help your self user" and start using things like firewall etc
[22:17] <thepeter> that's why I am asking
[22:17] <lpotter> personally, I think ro by default. developer mode would change it to rw
[22:17] <thepeter> (but I know it is probably too soon to this kind of thoughts)
[22:18] <thepeter> lpotter, I use developer mode from beginning and OTAs were working perfectly fine, arše you sure that is changes to rw automatically?
[22:19] <lpotter> no. I am saying it should
[22:20] <lpotter> but like you said, it's easy enough to do it you have a console/terminal
[22:24] <thepeter> lpotter, so that's why my question is (and was) If is there anything to wait for or just start going "my own way"
[22:25] <lpotter> if you want it for 'normal' users go ro.
[22:26] <lpotter> but it wasnt really designed for apt-get, and things can (and do) go wonky sometimes using it
[22:42] <dobey> thepeter: using debs gives every developer root access to every device. it's why using debs/apt/rw is bad. the whole point of things like click/snap was to provide better security
[22:45] <thepeter> dobey, I understand, I am in intending to write apps which will need root access for phone, I am more thinking about customising packages I use on my device - exactly like I do on desktop
[22:46] <thepeter> ^^^ I am not intending ...